Iwata and Miyamoto were both at the forefront of electing the GamePad as the sell feature of the Wii U. So they both had a vested interest in proving the design choice was somehow beneficial or important game design.
Miyamoto's Failure - Bosman at Home
- Thread starter nynt9
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Iwata and Miyamoto were both at the forefront of electing the GamePad as the sell feature of the Wii U. So they both had a vested interest in proving the design choice was somehow beneficial or important game design.
captmcblack
Member
This video is so harsh.
Some of it rings true, but you'd think that Star Fox (and all Nintendo games in general, instead of those specific ones that are supposed to be like that) was supposed to be this AAA ultra-deep gameplay series that was hyped to heaven to deliver unprecedented stuff...rather than the cool cult favorite series where interesting gameplay things are tried (3D/SuperFX, 4-player/force feedback, touch control, etc) and once - maybe even twice - it sold nicely. I'm just not convinced I should've been not only looking for a deep and engrossing gameplay experience in Star Fox (a series that literally never had any of those things), but also have that as an indictment specifically on Miyamoto's career as a whole.
Miyamoto isn't infallible - he's failed many, many times. He's made or overseen or involved himself in games that have sold poorly, been reviewed poorly or have been divisive, and he's done it over more than 30 years and 10 consoles and handhelds. As good as this video is, I dunno what to make of it.
I won't touch the sexism stuff, though. All of it is totally, technically true.
Some of it rings true, but you'd think that Star Fox (and all Nintendo games in general, instead of those specific ones that are supposed to be like that) was supposed to be this AAA ultra-deep gameplay series that was hyped to heaven to deliver unprecedented stuff...rather than the cool cult favorite series where interesting gameplay things are tried (3D/SuperFX, 4-player/force feedback, touch control, etc) and once - maybe even twice - it sold nicely. I'm just not convinced I should've been not only looking for a deep and engrossing gameplay experience in Star Fox (a series that literally never had any of those things), but also have that as an indictment specifically on Miyamoto's career as a whole.
Miyamoto isn't infallible - he's failed many, many times. He's made or overseen or involved himself in games that have sold poorly, been reviewed poorly or have been divisive, and he's done it over more than 30 years and 10 consoles and handhelds. As good as this video is, I dunno what to make of it.
I won't touch the sexism stuff, though. All of it is totally, technically true.
Of course she didnt disobey. It was just a way to take her powers, just like in any metroid ever and make the game actually challenging. People may find the game awful and i think they are entitled to their opinion, but to put this much though on that stuff is just looking for reasons to complain and to confirmate their bias.
I think Miyamoto's output over the generations is indisputable and he's a legend, but in the context of SF I think he's pretty clearly failed. It's especially egregious considering the quality of his output over the earlier decades.
Already Torn
Banned
But the way in which they took away the powers absolutely destroys the character. It's a real problem buddy.
Did it? When i played the game i never saw that as anything more than an stupid way to strip Samus powers. In earlier games that never had an explanation, it was just done. Now they tried to give an explanation, stupid as it is, for it.
To me it never destroyed anything. I never saw it as anything more than the usual while playing and when people say "she didnt disobey!" i think "well, if she did, the game wouldn't have any challenge!". I prefer a game where i have to do stuff.
Although i think the permission system is stupid, i just never saw it as anything more than what it is.
Alex_Mexico
Member
I have nothing against stripping Samus of her powers so we can get them again but are you actually defending the bullshit excuse they use in Other M? There are way they could've done this without it making Samus look like a fucking bimbo who's willing to put her life at risk before disobeying a man. Remember the run through the lava level? Are you really defending this crap? Because I'd like to see you try. I really do.
Psycho_Mantis
Banned
I understand but is there any validation that this was the process used to create the Pikmin girl character. Perhaps they wanted a really girly colour, aesthetically or to suit the personality. I agree that such a trend is silly: I noticed how the female character in Star Fox zero has pink fur, though with I don't think the trend is prominent enough to be worried about it.
Already Torn
Banned
Yes, it absolutely did. It's the worst way they could have gone about restricting your powers. People have written essays on how terrible it is for the character. I'm sorry you didn't think about the implications of the story. Maybe your brain repressed it?
Alex_Mexico
Member
That's where you have to come up for a better excuse to take away her powers without making her look like a submissive girl with daddy issues who almost kills herself because a man didn't tell her "its okay to turn on your Varia Suit.
The most badass bounty hunter in the galaxy who has gotten rid of alien life forms in half a dozen occasions and blown up entire planets was reduced in Other M to an idiot who likes to take orders from a guy who's not even her superior because she doesnt work for him. Even when it means she might die.
Yes. It destroys her character and contradicts a 25 year franchise' main character. I'm not against stripping of her powers. I'm against the way Nintendo (and Sakamoto) did it.
Dirtyshubb
Member
Really?
So the trend of society enforced gender stereotypes isnt prominent enough to worry about, regardless of the fact pink has been labelled a 'girls colour' for countless years?
So if Nintendo had a female character in one game who was kept in the kitchen making sandwiches it wouldnt be something to worry about because it was just one game?
I already did. You can look for anything to confirm your bias though, just like you usually do in the bloodstainsd thread.
Also, this had nothing to do with the topic in question, which is miyamoto. Every thread that starts mentioning other m ends, so to me it ends now. Its been 6 years already. Who cares.
I have no idea about the process they used. However, when Nintendo repeatedly create female characters that look this way, it makes it difficult to imagine how else their thought process would be. Moreover, taking the specific thought process out of the discussion, it's just something Nintendo and other devs need to change because it just shows how out of touch they are with feminism in general. One specific example isn't the end of the world, but when you see it all over the place it's a trend. Also, this has been a trend since the dawn of games, Nintendo included. Some devs are definitely good about avoiding this trope, but some are woefully stuck in the past.
If you haven't already, I'd recommend you take a look at Anita Sarkeesian's video on this exact subject. She explains it far better than I can
Excellent video. Mirrors what I've been thinking about Miyamoto for a good number of years now. He seems like a detriment, as opposed to someone with actual fresh ideas. That being said, I really do hope the NX turns things around. As much as I've loved these short years with the Wii U (it's by far my most played console), its premature end is incredibly depressing.
Already Torn
Banned
I don't think it's been pointed out yet because I didn't think it had to be, but remember that Metroid Prime accomplished this by having Samus run through an exploding space station while chasing down Ridley, and some rogue electricity damaged her suit. In Prime 2 she's ambushed by a ton of warrior Ing in a hostile environment and barely makes it out alive. In Other M a guy tells her to not activate her stuff so she turns off even he defensive capabilities. Can you really not see how this is different?
In the case of Pikmin 3, the color they gave her is actually opposite her character and personality. To the point where one could think it was done intentionally to mess with a persons expectations/perceptions going in when meeting her.
Pro from Dover
Member
I agree that the cover art to Project GUARD is dope!
But that last bit as Miyamoto is the act of a bully. I mean, have you ever won an argument and just wanted to rub it in. It feels good right? It's fun, just like the last bit of the video. That's why bullying exists.
And have you ever honestly looked at a bully? Usually they are not the "pick of the litter" as they say. Or at the very least, expressing sign of pressure from falling low. Didn't a pro wrestler lose his job and suddenly get all mean-like with his wife recently?
Like the beginning of the Fist of the North Star animated movie narration (in English) "Men were fearful. And power over other men made them... Less afraid."
I'm sure that Bosman, with reflection, will host The Late Show one day.
But that last bit as Miyamoto is the act of a bully. I mean, have you ever won an argument and just wanted to rub it in. It feels good right? It's fun, just like the last bit of the video. That's why bullying exists.
And have you ever honestly looked at a bully? Usually they are not the "pick of the litter" as they say. Or at the very least, expressing sign of pressure from falling low. Didn't a pro wrestler lose his job and suddenly get all mean-like with his wife recently?
Like the beginning of the Fist of the North Star animated movie narration (in English) "Men were fearful. And power over other men made them... Less afraid."
I'm sure that Bosman, with reflection, will host The Late Show one day.
Already Torn
Banned
This is all ridiculous lolI agree that the cover art to Project GUARD is dope!
But that last bit as Miyamoto is the act of a bully. I mean, have you ever won an argument and just wanted to rub it in. It feels good right? It's fun, just like the last bit of the video. That's why bullying exists.
And have you ever honestly looked at a bully? Usually they are not the "pick of the litter" as they say. Or at the very least, expressing sign of pressure from falling low. Didn't a pro wrestler lose his job and suddenly get all mean-like with his wife recently?
Like the beginning of the Fist of the North Star animated movie narration (in English) "Men were fearful. And power over other men made them... Less afraid."
I'm sure that Bosman, with reflection, will host The Late Show one day.
Alex_Mexico
Member
Bosman accused Miyamoto of sexism in his video. People in this very thread have said Nintendo is "one of the most feminist companies in videogames". Myself and others here have stated how Other M, among other examples, are clear examples of this not being true. Ergo, its relevant to this thread. Especially when you come around and try to defend the #1 complaint of almost everyone who hates Other M.
I wouldn't care about Other M if the franchise was alive and well. This game singlehandedly ended a prolific 8 year run of the franchise that continues to be dormant to this day and unless Nintendo revives it Other M will continue to be the most recent mainline game in the series. A worthless, not fun, sexist videogame that shits all voer the franchise with bad controls (again, in the name of INNOVATION), bad music, bland level design, and super linear gameplay.
This is all my opinion. Opinions are biased. This is not a newspiece. You're not the epitome of unbiased either, and you shouldn't have to be when stating an opinion.
This is exactly what people told me when it came to aiming with two analog sticks, lol.
I had a lengthy adjustment period from KB/M, whereas things like gyro and Wiimote/Nunchuck clicked almost instantly.
I suppose that's because I "learned" shooters on KB/M, though, so the ability to move/point to where I want to be and have my cursor/crosshair/whatever land there is far more 'familiar' to me than analogs.
It's like using a mouse versus using that goddamn laptop nub - I want precision when I am trying to point/aim.
LordRaptor
Member
No, as I said above; that's not an argument against the statement that Nintendo are doing more about sexism than anyone else is, that's a rebuttal to an argument that nobody is making about there being zero evidence of any sexism in anything nintendo have ever produced.
I mean, you see the difference right?
If you combine the two statements of "Nintendo is one of the most feminist companies in the industry" and "Nintendo is responsible for Other M" perhaps it says less about Nintendo and more about the rest of the industry. The company behind Other M is more feminist than the rest. Let that sink in for a moment.
Nintendo don't get the opportunity to be as sexist as other companies because their games are generally devoid of plot or characters. They're about gameplay and the characters mostly exist to facilitate gameplay. Many of their characters are nonhuman and genderless so they dodge that bullet there too.
The one time they tried to do a story driven game with a female protagonist, we got Other M. Let that sink in for a moment.
Admiral Alliteration
Neo Member
That's exactly what I said: Miyamoto is a PR figure for those games, but to claim that he developed them is simply wrong. The prototype to Star Fox Zero for example started during the Wii era and it wasn't Miyamoto who had that idea. Also it's important to note that Star Fox Zero has two actual directors (with Miyamoto als Supervising Director). This is not a Miyamoto game like Super Mario 64 is.
Psycho_Mantis
Banned
Yes because wearing a pink dress is in any way similar to that situation.
tbh I had no idea that Nintendo used this so much to identify female characters, though it seems to be within the Mario universe. Female characters wearing pink is fine however seeing how often Nintendo seems to adopt the scheme for the one female it does get silly.
The first statment is untrue though
Already Torn
Banned
He took responsibility for it though, it was his project. He's famous for shaking up projects that aren't working, and he didn't do that with StarFox.
It probably should be noted that Miyamoto's not even in Other M's credits and what was Nintendo EAD didn't work on the game.
The vast majority of games Nintendo publishes have a plot and characters.
I'm sure we'll get into talking about how Intelligent Systems, Monolith Soft, Retro Studios don't "count" as part of Nintendo, or how Splatoon doesn't count as having female characters or a plot for some arbitrary reason.
Dirtyshubb
Member
Well since its perpetuating a gender stereotype that overall is negative to the portrayal of women i would say it is the same. You might think that women being in the kitchen is worse but they are both negative in their own right.
LordRaptor
Member
Which just makes companies that deprive players the choice of a female lead even worse if super sexist Nintendo regularly offer this and its so trivial to do that it doesn't even count in their favour when discussing representation of women in games.
Miyamoto deserves all the respect in the world for what he did in the 1970s/80s/90s. The problem is not him, but the Japanese business culture which sees it fit to have a senior-aged man as the creative head of a company that is in a rapidly growing, relatively young industry. Spielberg can still make relevant movies at his age because movies haven't changed much in the last 20 years. Now compare video games from 1996 to games now. It's a whole other world.
Alex_Mexico
Member
Nintendo didn't program it but they were actively involved. Everything about the story (I.e. The bulk of the sexism in that game) came directly from Sakamoto himself. Team Ninja were the code monkeys. Nintendo was there to make the orders and approve them.
And yes I know that Miyamoto wasn't personally involved but his games aren't the epitome of feminism either, man. And they all work for he same company.
Bizarre thread to reference considering Syndicate had a playable female character, correcting this, and previous games like Liberation already had a female character.
SunBroDave
Member
And Nintendo and Miyamoto have refused to evolve with the times.
That doesn't really square with them aggressively pushing more women into managerial and development roles i.e. Animal Crossing. That team is near if not outright 50/50 in terms of gender representation.
Already Torn
Banned
I wonder if it's a case of Old Man syndrome amplified by Japanese culture? Like in terms of authority and all that. That's the only thing that makes sense to me, I don't think Miyamoto actively hates women.
I'm not an expert in Japanese culture, however.
Some very cutting criticism, but he's not wrong. Pointing out the other gender representation issues amidst trashing on SF0 feels like kicking 'em while they're down. I like the contrast he makes with Splatoon there, that one handles it well.
It's hard to understand how a game like SF0 comes from Nintendo, and Miyamoto in specific. So many times, I've heard talk of how games have gotten too confusing, how people are intimidated and don't want to try games. SF0 isn't natural or intuitive at all, the learning curve is steep and it's hard just to feel competent. I think there's a lot of potential there for it to be fun after some adjustment (which I still need to dive back in and try).
It's hard to understand how a game like SF0 comes from Nintendo, and Miyamoto in specific. So many times, I've heard talk of how games have gotten too confusing, how people are intimidated and don't want to try games. SF0 isn't natural or intuitive at all, the learning curve is steep and it's hard just to feel competent. I think there's a lot of potential there for it to be fun after some adjustment (which I still need to dive back in and try).
LordRaptor
Member
Its a public example (as opposed to all of the behind closed doors private ones) of the rest of the industry not even going as far as a flawed patronising stereotypical woman to play as as a named protagonist.
99% of the time - at best - you get a character create spawned cypher.
So if Nintendo making efforts to provide named female protagonists in a majority of their titles doesn't even count to you - I assume because its trivial and easy? - what does that say about the rest of the industry.
The influence and nature of "japanese culture" is I think overstated, you've got Kyoguchi and Eguchi pushing for gender parity on their teams. Samus in Other M was just... hoo boy.
Already Torn
Banned
I can't think of a good way to word it, but what j meant is that if say Kyoguchi was pushing for that kind of thing and then Miyamoto said they were going to keep doing what they were doing, people would listen to Miyamoto if that makes sense. In the Other M example, Sakamoto had complete control over the story so nobody could tell him that it was hot garbage.
R_thanatos
Member
very good video .
I agree with kyle bosman. Miyamoto had a goal , make the wii U gamepad justified and he didn't manage to do it.
Star fox zero is a failed experiment in that aspect , and the miyamoto "touch" is not nearly as strong as he was 10 or 15 years ago.
I agree with kyle bosman. Miyamoto had a goal , make the wii U gamepad justified and he didn't manage to do it.
Star fox zero is a failed experiment in that aspect , and the miyamoto "touch" is not nearly as strong as he was 10 or 15 years ago.
Chaos2Frozen
Member
"Shut up Isabelle, gameplay comes first."
I can totally see this in next gen parenting.
I can totally see this in next gen parenting.
ZeroTheShadow
Member
The ending skit is terrible.
If she stripped depending of some kind of performance or undressed without any reason in the movie, yeah totally.
But that's not the case. And Ridley in underwear in some dirty prison isn't the same as Samus in "Zero Suit"... Or even Bikini if we go back to the first Metroid.
There is such thing as being depress at a time. The first time i played Other M, i was just thinking the fact she was sad about the larva and the fact she is coming back to the second people who raised her during her teenager days was a combo which made her anormally emotional. Something which kinda happen to myself when i go back to my own place of birth. At that point i was kinda surprised in a positive way to be honest. It doesn't invalidate anything she has/will do, just at that time, she was mentally more instable and i think it's a great idea... But hey, women can't be weak sometime, that's sexist. Would love to see that on a male character again.... If Kratos was depressed in a future God of War game i may be really interested.
________
But as said before, that's not the point and i don't like a lot of other stuff in Other M anyway. My only point was that the whole "Miyamoto is sexist" doesn't seems to hold any water. And if we extrapole to Nintendo as a whole, taking Other M and not the entire Metroid serie is just being blind.
BUT as it was my first point, all those Nintendo World were created at a time video game were marketed for boys. So Peach & Mario, Zelda & Link. I really don't want to have them reboot in order to have a "stronger peach" without any reason.(even if i liked what they did to Zelda several time. She is a lot stronger in Wind Waker, Passive but Imposiving in Twilight Princess, and weaker but charming in Skyward Sword.)
New worlds from Nintendo including Splatoon or Rhythm Heaven are more neutral about that. (Well, maybe not some clothing from Xenoblade i guess...)
EatinOlives
Member
It's a bitter pill to swallow being a fan of Miyamoto in my childhood years, but the video does present some undeniable gaffes made during the Star Fox Zero debacle.
And ultimately I think it's a problem with the Wii U as a console. That thing is the definition of a solution in search of a problem. I really hope there was true inspiration for the NX, whatever it ends up being, because the Wii U was obviously in the "innovation for the sake of doing something different" as opposed to "innovation because we actually had a really good inspiring idea".
And ultimately I think it's a problem with the Wii U as a console. That thing is the definition of a solution in search of a problem. I really hope there was true inspiration for the NX, whatever it ends up being, because the Wii U was obviously in the "innovation for the sake of doing something different" as opposed to "innovation because we actually had a really good inspiring idea".
If she stripped depending of some kind of performance, yeah totally.
But that's not the case.
Well for this specific part, that was stupid but more for a gameplay reason which clashed with the story. We all know it. Also, it wasn't "a man", it was "a father figure" and it makes a whole lot of difference to me. I know a very strong guy who wouldn't dare go against his father even if he doesn't respect him. I think that's something a lot of people missed, the difference between the fact he is a "father figure" and "a man". Also, you wouldn't want as a mercenary to disobey the military too much, of course that doesn't count for the Varia Suit which was bullshit.
Bur for the rest and including the fact she weems "weaker" in cinematic, there is also such thing as being depress at a time. The first time i played Other M, i was just thinking the fact she was sad about the larva and the fact she is coming back to her root made her anormally emotional. Something that kind happen to myself when i go back to my own place of birth. At that point i was kinda surprised in a positive way to be honest. It doesn't invalidate anything she has/will do, just at that time, she was mentally more instable and i think it's a great idea... But hey, women can't be weak sometime, that's sexist. Would love to see that on a male character again.... If Kratos was depressed in a future God of War game i may be really interested.
________
But as said before, that's not the point and i don't like a lot of other stuff in Other M anyway. My only point was that the whole "Miyamoto is sexist" doesn't seems to hold any water. And if we extrapole to Nintendo as a whole, taking Other M and not the entire Metroid serie is just being blind.
BUT as it was my first point, all those Nintendo World were created at a time video game were marketed for boys. So Peach & Mario, Zelda & Link. I really don't want to have them reboot in order to have a "stronger peach" without any reason.(even if i liked what they did to Zelda several time. She is a lot stronger in Wind Waker, Passive but Imposiving in Twilight Princess, and weaker but charming in Skyward Sword.)
New world from Nintendo including Splatoon or Rhythm Heaven are more neutral about that. (Well, maybe not some clothing from Xenoblade i guess...)
This is actually demonstrative of one of Nintendo's bigger problems over the past several years. They've been relying too heavily on controller gimmicks to sell their hardware. While a lot of these idea's aren't necessarily bad overall, they are nichey. The gamepad for example is useful for things like inventory management, maps, or for remote play, but isn't really useful to core gameplay design beyond that.
As such, Nintendo often appears to be in a position where they feel they, "need," to prove their controllers aren't a niche gimmick. This in turn dictates game design and results in developers trying to push against basic design conventions unnecessarily. Basically, developers are trying to fit a round peg into a square hold, in order to justify their controllers. Instead they SHOULD be focusing on making the best gaming experience they can.
As such, Nintendo often appears to be in a position where they feel they, "need," to prove their controllers aren't a niche gimmick. This in turn dictates game design and results in developers trying to push against basic design conventions unnecessarily. Basically, developers are trying to fit a round peg into a square hold, in order to justify their controllers. Instead they SHOULD be focusing on making the best gaming experience they can.
dickroach
Member
Rats Off To Ya
Banned
Holy shit, that bonus bit was brutal.
But not wrong.
But not wrong.
Namco helped with Smash 4, Capcom made 3 Zelda games and SEGA made F-zero GX though.
I think the main point is that Monolith is more independent and have their own game making philosophy, which they have kept after being bought by Nintendo.
Not saying the games released by them are not Nintendo games though. But compare it to disney pixar.
Pixar was bought by disney, and continue to make films in their own way, and disney continue to make movies in their own way. Both studios films are disney films, but one is only disney, and one is disney pixar.
It's about the same thing with monolith soft, they make nintendo-monolith games, while EAD make Nintendo games.