Why is everyone anti Bruce x Barbara? (Batman)
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BewareTheBatsie
Member
I know he's a dog, but I just said it in response to Dick being a good guy generally with sex and that is well, it's one hell of a dick move.
Yeezus H. Christ
Banned
Okay, this might sound fucked up and ignorant and I apologise in advance, but...how do you make love to someone paralyzed from the waist down? They can't feel anything down there.
You forgot the page where Dick has sex with Babs and then gives her his announcement letter for him and Starfire's engagement immediately afterwards.
I didn't forget. I hate that story, and it felt very out of character for Grayon to do that. It was a pretty awful retcon of events, to sandwhich in Bab's paralysis in the midst of Grayson's engagement. It did make SOME sense, though. The woman he also loved was nearly murdered, forever crippled, and he still very much loved her and wanted to be there for her and... it got out of hand.
BUT... it also wasn't ignored. That sort of infidelity and hurt stuck around and they had to work through it. It ultimately wasn't something that they ignored and moved on from... it was part of their relationship as they moved forward and healed from it.
That's why I said it was one of the most enduring, challenging, painful, heartful, passionate, intimate, genuine relationships in comics. As bad as that event was, it wasn't something they just shrugged off. To make the relationship work, they had to deal with it. They had to rebuild trust.
And, in my opinion, they came out stronger on the end. It took a lot of time and healing, but they did it.
Duane Cunningham
Member
Sheeeit. I clicked that link and read it. Then I figured, hmm good column, maybe I'll read another entry, and read the Marvel MLK day story... Then realized both entries were things written by Steve Englehart. Why do I have a feeling he's on the list more beyond that?
Valjean Lafitte
Banned
I'm sorry, but this is just an awful counter-argument. The fact that it was supposed to be gross doesn't make it not gross? No duh, because again, that's the point.
Barbara wasn't even jailbait when she was first introduced. She was 25 then later retconned to 18.
unholyrevenger72
Banned
Bruce doesn't want his pelvis crushed
hikarutilmitt
Member
I've never thought of this as an odd or gross thing, more as something that was an eventuality. This is Bruce, who is terrible at all relationships and is a recluse for all intents and purposes. It's also Barbara who has her own issues and they work very closely together and there's a ton of respect between them and one of them eventually makes a move that the other just goes with because it feels right.
To say that an age gap is a problem, other than the fairly obvious, comes from people who mostly have their own hangups about these things and haven't had emotions on that level before.
This is also, easily, one of the reason I've always liked Terry so much. He was everything you normally see in a Bat-friend but he was learning in a Year One way, while also doing what he needed to despite is rough past as a delinquent. He only got better and I feel like he was the reason Bruce finally stopped being such a jerk to everyone and everything and reconnected with the people from his past. It made what happened in Future's End really sting, for me.
To say that an age gap is a problem, other than the fairly obvious, comes from people who mostly have their own hangups about these things and haven't had emotions on that level before.
This is also, easily, one of the reason I've always liked Terry so much. He was everything you normally see in a Bat-friend but he was learning in a Year One way, while also doing what he needed to despite is rough past as a delinquent. He only got better and I feel like he was the reason Bruce finally stopped being such a jerk to everyone and everything and reconnected with the people from his past. It made what happened in Future's End really sting, for me.
QuantumZebra
Member
Writers seem to use Batman as their own personal male power fantasy
I guess that happens a lot in comics
But Batman seems to be the #1 perpetrator... maybe Iron Man/Wolverine next to that?
Wolverine hasn't really been this for a long freaking time.
Last decade he spent being a meat shield and getting his ass punked by people weaker then a single of dudes he use to take a group.
Cap, Iron, and for a while Black Panther.
Didn't see it directly mentioned, but their superhero names are supposed to reflect their age.
Batman + Batgirl = implied adult/child
Batman + Catwoman = consenting adults
Batman's "prep time" meme doesn't mean that he's always prepared, it means that if he's given enough time to prepare, a base-level human like himself can successfully take down even the heaviest of the heavy-hitters in the DC Universe (unlike the Marvel Universe, where no matter how much he tries, Hawk Guy will never be able to take down Galactus).
Batman + Batgirl = implied adult/child
Batman + Catwoman = consenting adults
Batman's "prep time" meme doesn't mean that he's always prepared, it means that if he's given enough time to prepare, a base-level human like himself can successfully take down even the heaviest of the heavy-hitters in the DC Universe (unlike the Marvel Universe, where no matter how much he tries, Hawk Guy will never be able to take down Galactus).
Coriolanus
Banned
Ymean like that time Doom took down the beyonder?
I forgot about Doom.
Nah, you can be a sex-fiend and not cheat on your fiancée. Or have sex with your long time friend/crush who was just paralyzed and then hand her the invitation to your wedding while you're still in bed.
I think Dick is more of a serial monogamist than anything.
Messofanego
Banned
You forgot the page where Dick has sex with Babs and then gives her his announcement letter for him and Starfire's engagement immediately afterwards.
What a Dick.
I didn't forget. I hate that story, and it felt very out of character for Grayon to do that. It was a pretty awful retcon of events, to sandwhich in Bab's paralysis in the midst of Grayson's engagement. It did make SOME sense, though. The woman he also loved was nearly murdered, forever crippled, and he still very much loved her and wanted to be there for her and... it got out of hand.
BUT... it also wasn't ignored. That sort of infidelity and hurt stuck around and they had to work through it. It ultimately wasn't something that they ignored and moved on from... it was part of their relationship as they moved forward and healed from it.
That's why I said it was one of the most enduring, challenging, painful, heartful, passionate, intimate, genuine relationships in comics. As bad as that event was, it wasn't something they just shrugged off. To make the relationship work, they had to deal with it. They had to rebuild trust.
And, in my opinion, they came out stronger on the end. It took a lot of time and healing, but they did it.
Hmm I guess it being part of the relationship as a bad time Barbara had to go through makes it a bit more palatable.
foxuzamaki
Doesn't read OPs, especially not his own
Because first, it aint right since she use to be dick's girl, and kinda weird aswell and secondly, Bruce x Diana is the OTP
Never forget Bruce actually knocked her up in the DCAU comics.
comic books sure are something
BadAss2961
Member
You're using the wrong version
Martian Manhunter?
Coriolanus
Banned
Namor.
PataHikari
Banned
That's the best part though.
Being Batman is never healthy for Bruce and him gradually devolving into a bitter old man as he drives his friends and loved ones away is pretty much the logical end point of a man who dresses up like a bat.
There's certainly quite a few people who think it's happened.
Reminds me that I recently found out that the old artist for Red Robin ships Bruce and Jason. Smh.
Nah dressing up as a bat has nothing to do with it. Not in the comic universe.
I don't think Bruce has to always end up bitter. Just a lot of writers prefer it that way.
Good point. He was always a dick.
Just_myles
Member
ctrl+f slayven = correct answer.
Totally creepy and should not have happened. Timmverse drop the ball on that one. She is basically a little older than Dick and he basically raised her.[opinion] Like, like, what Woody Allen did. [/opinoin]
Totally creepy and should not have happened. Timmverse drop the ball on that one. She is basically a little older than Dick and he basically raised her.[opinion] Like, like, what Woody Allen did. [/opinoin]
Quite a few
None that are major characters. There's always someone looking to write something shocking or dark with their favourite childhood characters.
EDIT: Talking about isolated asshole stories, which people tend to bring up all the time for characters they hate and ignore for characters they like. Almost all of them have a few.
Its a tradition. Its a comic book....tradition. older men younger women, good girls gone for bad dick and becoming molls.
exmachina64
Banned
It's debatable, I'm sure someone else is more knowledgable about the history of Bruce and Diana, but DC tried to ship them in the comics in the early 2000s.
DC has trend
Eventually they aged her to 17
Marvel has trend
Never forget Bruce actually knocked her up in the DCAU comics.
*cringe myself out of existence*
And yes, Slade, it does make a difference.
Who was the writer for this? Who came up with this shit?!
When in doubt, blame Dan DiDio.
Man-Thing, I guess? Most of the major ones have been in their share of "what were you thinking/that's completely out of character/horrible retcon" events and storylines so I can't think of many outside of lesser-known heroes from DC and Marvel.
Unrelated but this is interesting since much of the discussion is related to Bruce Wayne in the DCAU (where the whole Barbara/Bruce relationship is still weird): Just as much as Terry becoming Batman is him trying to redeem himself for all the bad he did before his father's death, so too is Bruce trying to redeem his past mistakes by training and befriending Terry as the new Batman, it's one of the reasons why Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker's ending is so great: Bruce finally patches things up with Tim after what he considers to be one of his greatest failures.
What the hell are you trying to say?
Well he did smooch Ra's al Ghul in The New Batman Adventures.
m_shortpants
Member
This thread made me look up the Gwen Stacy Green Goblin thing.
I'll be leaving now
My planet needs me
I'll be leaving now
My planet needs me
batman beyond
Zen_Arcade
Banned
Reed Richards is also a notorious shitbag. So him doing that fits in with his character.
That was more a rebuttal to the OP's question of "why don't people like the relationship?"
In the DCAU? She took classes with Dick Grayson. I don't they they ever stated she was 25.
She's the same age as Dick, and Bruce has known Dick since he was just a boy.
He isn't a creep. He doesn't creep on people. He isn't 'creepy'.
But he is a weirdo. He acts in a non-normal way.
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