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[SneakyStephan]

If they want to get a GPU that size in, they are going to have to skimp on basically everything else most likely. HBM2 aint viable at that power draw, and CPU wise, who knows how Zen will shake out.

If we consider 200w the maximum limit, that's going to really seal the deal unless they want to end up with heating issues and other problems.

TLDR, expecting a full generational leap is nonsense, they are going to go for smaller jumps more often. That is what they stated

You have it the wrong way around, HBM2 is vastly much more power efficient than gddr5


Using 8GB of HBM2 instead of gddr5 , at the same memory bandwidth, will save them a good 30-40watts in system power consumption.
GCN is also laughably power inefficient, a maxwell gpu with the same performance as what's in the ps4 would only have about 60 percent of the power draw.
So there are huge gains to be made performance wise (different architecture, 2x power efficiency from 28planar -> 14nm ff+, save at least 30W from using HBM compared to gddr5)

6TF on amd means r9 390x performance, which you can get for like 120W with polaris, less if it uses HBM2

 

[Leyasu]

From its announcement, XB1 was spent. And as much as I love Halo 5, I'd buy a solid PC version of it over the current XB1 version in a heartbeat. Imagining 343 trying to build their vision of Halo 6 on XB1 ... does me a frighten.

In the case of this so called "Scorpio" the leap is solid enough to guarantee significant changes for games going forward on Xbox.

Agreed. It's a nice leap if true and 343 will be able to give us a truly gorgeous halo. I just wish that it was coming this year.

 

[gundamkyoukai]

You don't need to read Gaf for this - prevailing majority opinions in 2012 everywhere were predicting Sony to trail the coming generation (or even suggesting industry exit). It was the sentiment commonly found with gaming press as well, and publisher confidence - while quite low overall in regards to console future - was also favoring Microsoft over anyone else at the time.

Which was crazy IMO .
I can understand pub wondering about consoles future .
PS3 had massive problem but the sales don't say MS had some huge advantage going into next gen.

 

[thehillissilent]

I have one.

Define near? Because until MS gets the whole PC situation turned around, Xbox is still the best place to play its exclusives.


Trust me, I would much rather play the on my gaming rig at 4K than on my XBO at 720, but the PC versions are such clusterfucks right now, it isn't worth it.

Quantum Break is the only one with real problems at this moment. The rest of the games (KI, Forza Apex, and Gears UE) run "mostly" fine right now.

 

[Jack The Nipper]

Microsoft usually saves everything for E3 and Gamescom. So while it's dry now, they always show a lot at E3.

They didn't have a lot last year either. I mean they have enough some games announced but nothing to really show.

Feel they have ramping up a new box for a while.

 

[Sydle]

If they want to get a GPU that size in, they are going to have to skimp on basically everything else most likely. HBM2 aint viable at that power draw, and CPU wise, who knows how Zen will shake out.

If we consider 200w the maximum limit, that's going to really seal the deal unless they want to end up with heating issues and other problems.

TLDR, expecting a full generational leap is nonsense, they are going to go for smaller jumps more often. That is what they stated

They didn't say that.

If we're going to go forward with anything, like I said, I want it to be a really substantial change for people – an upgrade. - Link

 

[Horohoro]

Who knows, maybe they will call it Xbox2. Nothing has been confirmed yet.

I think they want to keep the ONE name. It just gonna be new architecture. I think consoles are going the way of phone upgrades so.
Xbox one v2,v3 and so on.
Since they use pc parts now the stores will basically be like app stores games will be compatible just with lower settings on lower consoles till they aren't supported any more eventually. I think sony and ms are both going that route. and the neo will be a ps4s of sorts while MS is going with xbox2. and sony will have a ps5 ready year following next with a reveal next year also. With MS architecture a refresh would be harder than simply upgrading the architecture in my mind since with ddr3 and the esram hold up it would be better on them to do that and simply follow suit later. Who knows we could see 4 year lifespans with S type upgrades every 2 years.

 

[davidwhangchoi]

Isn't the rumor that PS4.5/X1.5 are fall 2017?

i hope not =/

Posts like this can't be real. No real human on the other side of a keyboard does stuff like that.

but i really did, gamestop has a promo for 250 trade in, personally i think it's worth it. w E3 around the corner.

Now wouldn't that suck if it turned out the PS4K and Scorpio didn't exist?

LOL, it was just sitting there gathering dust. traded in in case the neo is announced and it depreciates fast.

I don't understand why you would do this.

i actually have a 20th anniversary(which i'm keeping). i just wanted to rid my vanilla launch version that gets a bit hot.

Thinking about doing it myself. I already played UC4 and Bloodborne and have a PC.

They're gonna be worth way less once Neo is announced.

i was thinking along the same lines.

I sold my PS4 last week for more than I paid for it, a no brainier for me before the value plummets. I can put it towards whichever sounds best, or rebuy a better PS4 bundle this fall if they're too far away/a bust.

I played what I wanted to for now on PS4 and I still have an insane backlog for what I've still got.

i think it's really a no loss to a minimal risk scenario

Bait. No sane person would do this

it's pretty practical. I had a launch console and pretty much want one that's quieter and cooler. (smaller chips) gamestop had a 250 trade promo which i'm holding unto. if nothing's revealed @ E3, i'll just use it towards the latest revision model.

 

[amstradcpc]

HBM2 aint viable at that power draw

HBM2 wattage consumption is way lower than GDDR5/X.

That´s why Vega has better perf/watt than Polaris here:

 

[kadotsu]

They didn't have a lot last year either. I mean they have enough some games announced but nothing to really show.

Feel they have ramping up a new box for a while.

If they are really decoupling software from hardware there is no more "ramping up".

 

[Markoman]

You are overestimating the cost of these components pretty drastically, and forgetting that this rumor says the console won't be out for 15+ months.

A 290x had 5.6TF nearly three years ago. A die-shrunk, more power efficient version of a 4 year old (when this comes out) card is not unreasonable for a console.

Yes, if we're going with AMD Tflops, but some posters seem to expect a GTX1070 in Scorpio.

On the flip-side: if they can sell a 4 year old 290x @400$ next year with component prices falling drastically like you've mentioned, why are PS4 and XboxOne still above 200$ right now with 4 year old GPUs?

 

[Obscuritas]

I have one.

Define near? Because until MS gets the whole PC situation turned around, Xbox is still the best place to play its exclusives.


Trust me, I would much rather play the on my gaming rig at 4K than on my XBO at 720, but the PC versions are such clusterfucks right now, it isn't worth it.

Judging by the Quantum Break port, you are right and we still don't know when and if Microsoft will have a solid output on PC too. Anyway they can't fuck this up or they can kiss their gaming business goodbye.

 

[MilkyJoe]

Why don't you do yourself a favor and read all the other developers calling it bullshit in that thread. But clinging to a narrative, does not make it true.

Why don't you reel your neck in a bit and answer the question posed. Some of us have jobs and are not about to go trawling through hundreds of replies looking for that needle in a haystack.

I've been sceptical about the PSVR on vanilla PS4 before even the first whiff of Neo. Plenty of people have. On paper it doesn't add up and Neo suddenly dropping around the same time... So I'll ride with my thought's until I am proven wrong in... ? October? We'll see then, won't we.

 

[pj]

You have it the wrong way around, HBM2 is vastly much more power efficient than gddr5


Using 8GB of HBM2 instead of gddr5 , at the same memory bandwidth, will save them a good 30-40watts in system power consumption.

What about 8GB of GDDR5X?

GDDR5X will be able to offer bandwidth per pin of up to 14 Gbps – which is double that of GDDR5 which can push up to 7 Gbps per pin. Not only that this improved performance will come at a lowered power cost – so a maxed out GDDR5X configuration will actually consume less power than a GDDR5 counterpart.

http://wccftech.com/jedec-publishes-gddr5x-specification-double-bandwidth/

HBM2 at 1.2 TB/s sure is great but it adds 60W to the power envelope on a standard GPU. The current implementation of HBM1 on Fiji chips adds around 25W to the chip.

http://wccftech.com/nvidia-pascal-volta-gpus-sc15/

GDDR5X sounds like it would be fine for a console

 

[blue_phazon]

Yes, if we're going with AMD Tflops, but some posters seem to expect a GTX1070 in Scorpio.

On the flip-side: if they can sell a 4 year old 290x @400$ next year with component prices falling drastically like you've mentioned, why are PS4 and XboxOne still above 200$ right now with 4 year old GPUs?

...because people are still buying them.

 

[Hoo-doo]

They didn't say that.

You know that statement could be interpreted in every way you could possibly want. That's the beauty of PR-speak.

If they were coming out with a 2x power increase, you bet your ass that they would be marketing it as a tremendous leap in performance. A paradigm shift even, a new level, a new generation, a new world full of immersion.

That shit writes itself.

 

[Markoman]

Hm...now that I think about it.... Xbox Too would be a fitting name ;P

 

[Zedox]

Nooooooo, Zedox stop!!!!

We're just about to enter an era of madness and insanity and you're suggesting that MS should irritate consumers a little more.

Nah, I think it makes sense to simplify everything. Xbox 4, then Xbox 5, and so on. No need to have the names that deliver some type of "message". They did the same ish with Windows Vista and ME. You can't do years like Windows 98 because it will be 3 years later and the name won't be good. It's simple and to the point. That's why PS4 is PS4. I don't think the neo will be PS5 but I do think PS4K is a reasonable name. Shit, Xbox could go Xbox 4K if they wanted to as well. I just think going with numbers is just better and go with the generation.

 

[Theonik]

Xbox 360 original 203 W
Playstation 3 original 207 W

Polaris 10 at 6 Tflops with GDDR5 will be near 150 W. (Nviida 1070 GTX is 150 Watts). Add a 20-30 watts CPU and other components and you are in the same TDP ballpark as X360 and PS3 gen.

There are three things to keep in mind here. First one is that both the Xbox 360 and PS3 were massive at launch compared to current systems, well the Xbox One is pretty big at least but with a slim one and PS4 out it will look pretty huge, they could do that except with the 360 and PS3 both suffered from big overheating issues largely because of the TDP if they went with a really big TDP they risk a repeat of that. Finally, when these systems had that TDP they had much larger chips and a dedicated CPU and GPU die. This is very important for thermals as it spreads that heat over a much larger surface area that makes cooling significantly easier. Cooling a 200W chip is really difficult, cards like the Fury X and Titan X struggle with this as a result and will throttle without very careful planning with ample room. (fury X gets round this with a very expensive water cooler)

 

[Tadpole]

Begun, the console wars have.

Haha

 

[Onemic]

Which was crazy IMO .
I can understand pub wondering about consoles future .
PS3 had massive problem but the sales don't say MS had some huge advantage going into next gen.

Ya, it's strange to me that opinion even formed.

If Im not mistaken didnt the PS3 technically come in second and the 360 3rd for last gen? I know they were regaining market share every year since like 2008.

 

[ebullientprism]

Man I am glad I sold my X1 and decided to sit out the rest of the console generation.

 

[RootCause]

Xbox 360 original 203 W
Playstation 3 original 207 W

Polaris 10 at 6 Tflops with GDDR5 will be near 150 W. (Nviida 1070 GTX is 150 Watts). Add a 20-30 watts CPU and other components and you are in the same TDP ballpark as X360 and PS3 gen.

Oh god! Going back to the same ballpark of two systems that were plagued with RROD, and to a lesser degree YLOD. hope they do some excellent cooling solution.
Back then you were lucky to have a 360 last longer than a year( and 3 years for the PS3).

 

[amstradcpc]

Oh god! Going back to the same ballpark of two systems that were plagued with RROD, and to a lesser degree YLOD. hope they do some excellent cooling solution.
Back then you were lucky to have a 360 last longer than a year( and 3 years for the PS3).

PS3 cooling system was great!.

 

[Theonik]

Ya, it's strange to me that opinion even formed.

If Im not mistaken didnt the PS3 technically come in second and the 360 3rd for last gen? I know they were regaining market share every year since like 2008.

It didn't help that Microsoft pretty much abandoned the Xbox 360 after 2010, Sony took advantage of this and later MS blunders leading to the PS4.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Why don't you reel your neck in a bit and answer the question posed. Some of us have jobs and are not about to go trawling through hundreds of replies looking for that needle in a haystack.

I've been sceptical about the PSVR on vanilla PS4 before even the first whiff of Neo. Plenty of people have. On paper it doesn't add up and Neo suddenly dropping around the same time... So I'll ride with my thought's until I am proven wrong in... ? October? We'll see then, won't we.

You post on NeoGaf, and I am at work as well. Well at one of my offices, so I have my freedoms, but do not act so obtuse, as if the PS4 and VR has not been demo'ed on PS4 units, for almost a year now, with developers and people who have tried it, walking away impressed and saying great things.

But let us cling to that one hyperbolic anonymous source, which 4-5 devs already called bullshit in that thread, as well as people/journalists who have tried the thing with pics, etc.. Because that statement fits your, 'skepticism'.

And on paper, it does add up.

PS4 can do 60fps with 1080p. They have proven this in some games. 60fps gets reprojected to 120fps. What is the problem here? Not every game has to look like Star Citizen in VR, lol.

 

[SneakyStephan]

What about 8GB of GDDR5X?


http://wccftech.com/jedec-publishes-gddr5x-specification-double-bandwidth/


http://wccftech.com/nvidia-pascal-volta-gpus-sc15/

GDDR5X sounds like it would be fine for a console

HBM is more efficient than gddr5x (which is more efficient than gddr5)

You have to look at power draw/bandwidth

HBM2 power draw will eventually exceed gddr5 power draw simply because of the vast increase in bandwidth. But it IS much more efficient.

a 390x equivalent gpu in xbox 1.5 will not have 1.2TB/s memory bandwidth, try 500GB/s , if even that. You can run HBM at very low clockspeed and very low voltage and still get much better better bandwidth than gddr5

 

[Aces&Eights]

Question to PC people: What realistic specs would this new Xbox need to be able to support the Oculus at a decent performance level and how expensive would that be? I'm trying to figure out what price range it would be in.

 

[GarthVaderUK]

4th gen Xbox, 4 times the power of the Bone, 4K content, 4 times the price

Spoiler

jk

- Xbox Four

 

[pj]

Yes, if we're going with AMD Tflops, but some posters seem to expect a GTX1070 in Scorpio.

On the flip-side: if they can sell a 4 year old 290x @400$ next year with component prices falling drastically like you've mentioned, why are PS4 and XboxOne still above 200$ right now with 4 year old GPUs?

There are a lot of reasons why consoles cost what they do and cost of the GPU is not the largest one.

 

[Hoo-doo]

Question to PC people: What realistic specs would this new Xbox need to be able to support the Oculus at a decent performance level and how expensive would that be? I'm trying to figure out what price range it would be in.

The current Xbox One would have zero issues supporting oculus if the software were tailored to the platform. As in, pared down.

There's technically no hard limit on performance for driving a VR headset. There's minimum specs for PC's but that's simply so developers will have a baseline of performance to target.

 

[Zedox]

4th gen Xbox, 4 times the power of the Bone, 4K content, 4 times the price

Spoiler

jk

- Xbox Four

I'm telling you Xbox 4 will be the name.

 

[Nirolak]

Question to PC people: What realistic specs would this new Xbox need to be able to support the Oculus at a decent performance level and how expensive would that be? I'm trying to figure out what price range it would be in.

They recommend the following:

NVIDIA GTX 970 / AMD 290 equivalent or greater
Intel i5-4590 equivalent or greater
8GB+ RAM
Compatible HDMI 1.3 video output
2x USB 3.0 ports
Windows 7 SP1 or newer

 

[Inuhanyou]

You have it the wrong way around, HBM2 is vastly much more power efficient than gddr5


Using 8GB of HBM2 instead of gddr5 , at the same memory bandwidth, will save them a good 30-40watts in system power consumption.
GCN is also laughably power inefficient, a maxwell gpu with the same performance as what's in the ps4 would only have about 60 percent of the power draw.
So there are huge gains to be made performance wise (different architecture, 2x power efficiency from 28planar -> 14nm ff+, save at least 30W from using HBM compared to gddr5)

6TF on amd means r9 390x performance, which you can get for like 120W with polaris, less if it uses HBM2

HBM2 wattage consumption is way lower than GDDR5/X.

That´s why Vega has better perf/watt than Polaris here:

Damn, i got told. Shit, that's actually pretty good then.

So i guess MS waiting was going to pay off far more significantly than i thought. Depending on the prices of course, will they be able to to price it effectively

 

[MilkyJoe]

You post on NeoGaf, and I am at work as well. Well at one of my offices, so I have my freedoms, but do not act so obtuse, as if the PS4 and VR has not been demo'ed on PS4 units, for almost a year now, with developers and people who have tried it, walking away impressed and saying great things.

But let us cling to that one hyperbolic anonymous source, which 4-5 devs already called bullshit in that thread, as well as people/journalists who have tried the thing with pics, etc.. Because that statement fits your, 'skepticism'.

And on paper, it does add up. Not every game has to look like Star Citizen in VR, lol.

Well there's my thoughts. People are going to expect great graphics thorugh the VR goggles, because they don't know any better. Und hence...


If you are at work then you know to post a link to make a point.

 

[SOR5]

Question to PC people: What realistic specs would this new Xbox need to be able to support the Oculus at a decent performance level and how expensive would that be? I'm trying to figure out what price range it would be in.

Video Card: NVIDIA: GTX 1070 / GTX 970 or greater | AMD: R9 390 / R9 290 or greater
CPU: Intel i5-6400 / i5-4590 equivalent or greater
Memory: 8GB+ RAM
Video Output: free HDMI 1.3 output
USB Ports: 3x USB 3.0 ports plus 1x USB 2.0 port

Trying to get decent parts to match that with consumer parts on newegg is about $700, I think thats the minimum

 

[SOR5]

I'm telling you Xbox 4 will be the name.

I guess Xbox 4 doesnt have the "Xbox 2 and Playstation 3" problem back in 2005 which resulted in the 360 name

 

[DeepEnigma]

Well there's my thoughts. People are going to expect great graphics thorugh the VR goggles, because they don't know any better. Und hence...


If you are at work then you know to post a link to make a point.

And when people put the headset on, they will realize they do not need UC4 or Star Citizens levels, since the job of the software is to trick the brain. Even the simplest of graphics is more immersive than anything they would have ever tried in gaming before.

London Heist and the engine to be shared with other in-house developers, that London Studios is working on is no slouch regardless as far as fidelity. Especially in VR immersion.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1200772

 

[Inuhanyou]

They didn't say that.

he said that when they first started talking about incremental consoles a few months back.

And its just a fact that if your going more often, the power jump is going to be smaller. Its not hard.

 

[pj]

HBM is more efficient than gddr5x (which is more efficient than gddr5)

You have to look at power draw/bandwidth

HBM2 power draw will eventually exceed gddr5 power draw simply because of the vast increase in bandwidth. But it IS much more efficient.

a 390x equivalent gpu in xbox 1.5 will not have 1.2TB/s memory bandwidth, try 500GB/s , if even that. You can run HBM at very low clockspeed and very low voltage and still get much better better bandwidth than gddr5

I would like to look at power draw/bandwidth. Do you have those figures?

If these consoles don't need the super high end bandwidth that HBM2 can provide, why would they use that instead of cheaper/more well known GDDR5X? What exactly would be the power savings?

 

[MilkyJoe]

And when people put the headset on, they will realize they do not need UC4 or Star Citizens levels, since the job of the software is to trick the brain. Even the simplest of graphics is more immersive than anything they would have ever tried in gaming before.

London Heist and the engine to be shared with other developers, that London Studios is working on is no slouch regardless as far as fidelity. Especially in VR immersion.

But that is not what they are used to or expecting. The Neo will go a long way to accommodate that.

 

[Markoman]

Question to PC people: What realistic specs would this new Xbox need to be able to support the Oculus at a decent performance level and how expensive would that be? I'm trying to figure out what price range it would be in.

A GTX980 (a GTX970 might cut it also) GFX + better CPU for sure...
I expect 500-600$ depending on the final GPU specs.
A 4,0 (gtx970)-5 (gtx980) Nvidia Tflops GPU in that price range in 2017 sounds realistic to me.

 

[GarthVaderUK]

Man I am glad I sold my X1 and decided to sit out the rest of the console generation.

I sold mine when these rumours of new Xboxen appeared, thought I may as well sell it at a higher price than it'll go for post-E3 and save dat cash for a slim or scorpio.

 

[x-Lundz-x]

I'm telling you Xbox 4 will be the name.

What would really be amazing if it was PS4K and XBOX4K.

 

[RootCause]

So what's this about PC getting all Xbox games I've seen mentioned multiple times in this thread. I thought you needed a n Xbox to stream them on PC. Or is that something announced recently?

 

[DeepEnigma]

But that is not what they are used to or expecting. The Neo will go a long way to accommodate that.

Huh?

People will not now what to expect, if they never tried it before. And when they do, they are going to be blown away, even if it was PSOne levels of simplicity, lol.

Hell, I was blown away with I was in my early teens and tried that 15fps VR experience in the mall. This is 1,000folds better due to framerate, optics, and better tracking now.

And again, there is this... which looks fantastic, especially in VR.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1200772

is that really a problem?

MSFT thought it was. I never did though.

 

[Strootman]

I guess Xbox 4 doesnt have the "Xbox 2 and Playstation 3" problem back in 2005 which resulted in the 360 name

is that really a problem?

 

[gaming_noob]

Scorpio confirmation

https://forum.beyond3d.com/posts/1916838

 

[DeepEnigma]

Scorpio confirmation

https://forum.beyond3d.com/posts/1916838

Ohhh, spicy!

Snoopy sounds so close to Snooping, lol.

 

[phil_t98]

are people already judging Gears when it hasn't even been released yet?
Bizzare