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Trump v. Bernie Debate

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legacyzero said:
Yet the only logical response I get from most Hillary supportersis how she's the safer option than Trump in the White House. Nobody wants to offer anything to rebut the clear evidence other than snark, dismissive comments, passive aggression, and deflextion. At worst they dogpile Bernie supporters in these threads, making most feel discouraged to come in them.
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What are you talking aboooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooout

There have been so many posts from Clinton supporters on this forum on why she's a great candidate, detailed responses that outline her policies and proposals. Stop being disingenuous and suggesting that the only reason people are voting for her is because we have what you consider a false notion of a shoe-in for the presidency versus Trump.
 
No way the Democratic Party lets Sanders tag team with Trump to shit on Hillary for two hours.

Sanders lost his fucking mind.
 
Link said:
Fuck off with this. Bernie supporters are talking about never voting for Hillary and even voting for Trump instead, but have the gall to bitch about "unity" because people that live in the real world want a guy that literally can't win to drop out so the nominee can be named and the party can get things in order for the General.

I can't with you people.
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Clinton supporters so delusional on here and unable to see the serious flaws in her, I can't even...
 
Mr Clutch said:
Hmmm...that is odd that the two rules seem to contradict each other. Also, I'm not entirely sure it would matter if Bernie asked or not. It would seem the issue is that he was willing to help or put forth effort to help one candidate and did not do the same for the other. We don't know though if he offered to Bernie and it was turned down.
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Yeah, it's not really very clear. What is clear to me, however is that the DNC (or certainly many members within if) are biased to towards Clinton. However, I haven't seen any evidence that this bias has manifested itself in any serious advantages towards Clinton that would account for her being in lead by a couple millions of votes. She's won this race because most people chose to vote for her, presumably because more people want her to be the candidate. Bernie wasn't cheated or robbed of it. He lost. Hopefully when Clinton is the nominee, she offers Sanders similar concessions to the ones Clinton was offered when Obama beat her.
 
ahoyle77 said:
I've met two different people that were social friends of the Clintons back in Arkansas going way back. They both told me the same story. Everyone loved Bill, great guy. Everyone tolerated Hillary. They didnt trust her and said she was a manipulator.
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Sounds like the same smear all powerful women in politics thorughout history have had flung at them.
 
ApharmdX said:
This had better not happen. There's a path to make this debate work for the Democrats, but it's more likely to do harm. Yes, Sanders could expose Trump as a clown. But if it ends up being two hours of Hillary bashing, where does that leave our party? It de-legitimizes her as nominee and it puts Sanders in a position to not endorse her at the convention. Which he needs to do so that we can win in November. His endorsement is validating, particularly because Clinton is a historic nominee, and has some history of being a moderate.
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I don't get it, you think it better not happen because you think for some reason Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump would spend an entire debate talking about someone else? That wouldn't be a debate, and I'm sure Bernie at least would try to steer it away from that.

You also are talking as if it's guaranteed Clinton will be the nominee, but there's still a chance for Bernie, because the different in votes is something like 2.5 million, while California has something like 40 million people. Talking in terms of what really matters, the difference in pledged delegates is 271, while Caifornia has 475 pledged delegates available. If Bernie manages to get a 58% victory in California, then he will have the majority of pledged delegates over Clinton. At that point, it would be up to superdelegates to overturn Bernie. Which of course could very well happen, the entire point of superdelegates is for the Democratic Party to be able to change the result. I'm just saying, Bernie still has a chance.
 
Just wish the Attorney General would indict the crazy lady so that Bernie would be the Democratic nominee...Im tired of her fraud and smug attitude. If shes the nominee fine ill vote for her because ill never vote Trump. Just sick of this crap.
 
legacyzero said:
"Why is lying bad?"

Are you expecting a serious answer with this??

Polls have Bernie positioned better for the GE than Hillary.

Time to show the country how true that is.
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He hasn't even been taken seriously by Republicans or Clinton. If he was the nominee, he would get shredded by Republican ads with the socialist label. You wouldn't want to see those polls.
 
PBY said:
Holly BaileyVerified account
‏@hollybdc
Sanders chief Jeff Weaver tells MSNBC that they are talking to Trump campaign about debate


BACK ON?
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It was never off.
That was a shitpost from some Twitter person that called it off.

The only thing that will get in the way of this debate is going to be the DNC or RNC throwing a tantrum and trying to control things once again.
 
jack_package_200 said:
So we should fuck over the will of the voters and make Bernie the nominee because of some polls?
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This is always ignored but it's the entire crux of the argument. It'd be different if Bernie were leading (or neck in the neck in the popular vote like Hillary was with Obama at times) but the difference is so huge.. how can you argue it?
 
Justin said:
Obama lost 23 states to Clinton including 7 of the last 9 states to vote. Was he a weak candidate?
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Obama wasn't a self declared socialist though, nor was he a lifelong independent.

Everything I said when placed together is why I see it that way.


Edit - Clinton didn't carry those labels in the 2008 primary season either, so I don't see how your point is valid against mine. They are different circumstances.
 
Erevador said:
I think Hillary supporters are a little delusional about how favorable the public can ever be convinced to feel towards her. She has always been unpopular with much of America, even as first lady.

Her unfavorables will always be high, a real anchor going up against someone who is himself wildly unpopular with many. An uncontroversial candidate would have been ideal for the Dems this year.
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What? Her favor-ability was really high right up until the primary started last year. She literally wasn't "controversial" at all up until then, beyond some "Oh another Clinton" or "Queen" comments and FoxNews Benghazi/email nonsense.
 
Dubbedinenglish said:
23708a5a5f544dfb9b3d44d4692757f8.png


http://www.gallup.com/poll/190343/trump-clinton-supporters-lead-enthusiasm.aspx


Please proceed governor...
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I think he's talking about bigger rallies and more donors, not a poll question where someone asks you "how enthusiastic are you?"
 
Dreamwriter said:
I don't get it, you think it better not happen because you think for some reason Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump would spend an entire debate talking about someone else? That wouldn't be a debate, and I'm sure Bernie at least would try to steer it away from that.

You also are talking as if it's guaranteed Clinton will be the nominee, but there's still a chance for Bernie, because the different in votes is something like 2.5 million, while California has something like 40 million people. Talking in terms of what really matters, the difference in pledged delegates is 271, while Caifornia has 475 pledged delegates. If Bernie manages to get a 58% victory in California, then he will have the majority of pledged delegates. At that point, it would be up to superdelegates to overturn Bernie. Which of course could very well happen, the entire point of superdelegates is for the Democratic Party to be able to change the result. I'm just saying, Bernie still has a chance.
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I believe this ignores states that have primaries in early June, such as NJ that lands on June 7 as well.
 
Dreamwriter said:
I don't get it, you think it better not happen because you think for some reason Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump would spend an entire debate talking about someone else? That wouldn't be a debate, and I'm sure Bernie at least would try to steer it away from that.

You also are talking as if it's guaranteed Clinton will be the nominee, but there's still a chance for Bernie, because the different in votes is something like 2.5 million, while California has something like 40 million people. Talking in terms of what really matters, the difference in pledged delegates is 271, while Caifornia has 475 pledged delegates. If Bernie manages to get a 58% victory in California, then he will have the majority of pledged delegates. At that point, it would be up to superdelegates to overturn Bernie. Which of course could very well happen, the entire point of superdelegates is for the Democratic Party to be able to change the result. I'm just saying, Bernie still has a chance.
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At that point he should get the nominee....Hes got a huge favorable percentage over Trump as opposed to Clintons less than 5%....how are they that stupid to put her up against him???
 
jack_package_200 said:
So we should fuck over the will of the voters and make Bernie the nominee because of some polls?
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Rather that than the fuck over the Country by giving Trump a good chance at Presidency. Also, Hill supporters are a representative of a part (albeit larger part) of the vote. Do not discount or ignore the millions of Bernie supporters. Should our will be fucked and forced to choose between two evils* so to say

*Hillary isn't evil. She may be or come off as untrustworthy. She may not agree with many of the issues I care for or don't care for (TPP, I'm looking at you...) but to say she is eveil is just sensationalizing the situation. She is, from the accounts of others, a nice, good person. Does she receive gains for herself through seemingly medial means (speeches for high dollar prices) and seems to flip her position on things in order to garner support? Maybe. But is she evil? Absolutely not.
 
Drewton said:
Clinton supporters so delusional on here and unable to see the serious flaws in her, I can't even...
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Serious flaws? All politicians have flaws. But she has a straight path to the nomination and by Bernie staying in the race, which he has the right to do so, is delaying the inevitable. I don't think Hillary supporters will deny her flaws and what makes her risky in some regards, but with that being for those supporters she is the better candidate STILL and is on the path to the nomination.
 
Mr Clutch said:
Rather that then the fuck over the Country by giving Trump a good chance at Presidency. Also, Hill supporters are a representative of a part (albeit larger part) of the vote. Do not discount or ignore the millions of Bernie supporters. Should our will be fucked and forced to choose between two evils* so to say

*Hillary isn't evil. She may be or come off as untrustworthy. She may not agree with many of the issues I care for or don't care for (TPP, I'm looking at you...) but to say she is eveil is just sensationalizing the situation. She is, from the accounts of others, a nice, good person. Does she receive gains for herself through seemingly medial means (speeches for high dollar prices) and seems to flip her position on things in order to garner support? Maybe. But is she evil? Absolutely not.
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The DNC has reached out to Sanders by giving him influence over their platform though. Just last week.

SayItWithMe said:
At that point he should get the nominee....Hes got a huge favorable percentage over Trump as opposed to Clintons less than 5%....how are they that stupid to put her up against him???
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He struggles to get the votes though.
 
Dreamwriter said:
I don't get it, you think it better not happen because you think for some reason Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump would spend an entire debate talking about someone else? That wouldn't be a debate, and I'm sure Bernie at least would try to steer it away from that.

You also are talking as if it's guaranteed Clinton will be the nominee, but there's still a chance for Bernie, because the different in votes is something like 2.5 million, while California has something like 40 million people. Talking in terms of what really matters, the difference in pledged delegates is 271, while Caifornia has 475 pledged delegates. If Bernie manages to get a 58% victory in California, then he will have the majority of pledged delegates. At that point, it would be up to superdelegates to overturn Bernie. Which of course could very well happen, the entire point of superdelegates is for the Democratic Party to be able to change the result. I'm just saying, Bernie still has a chance.
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You screwed up your math. Net delegates are what matter. For Bernie to net 271 in California alone, it needs to be a split of around 375-100, or around 80% of the vote.
 
Dreamwriter said:
I don't get it, you think it better not happen because you think for some reason Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump would spend an entire debate talking about someone else? That wouldn't be a debate, and I'm sure Bernie at least would try to steer it away from that.
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Clinton supporters are really delusional in here thinking that Bernie wouldn't use this opportunity to go full out against Trump instead of Clinton. Trump may think it's going to be friendlier because he's made some positive comments about Bernie but that's not going to happen, especially with him going after people like Elizabeth Warren lately.
 
Darryl M R said:
Serious flaws? All politicians have flaws. But she has a straight path to the nomination and by Bernie staying in the race, which he has the right to do so, is delaying the inevitable. I don't think Hillary supporters will deny her flaws and what makes her risky in some regards, but with that being for those supporters she is the better candidate STILL and is on the path to the nomination.
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She barely has a 5% lead over Trump in the GE and yet Sanders is about 18%....why would the DNC risk putting her up against him? Doesnt make sense to me...
 
Dreamwriter said:
I don't get it, you think it better not happen because you think for some reason Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump would spend an entire debate talking about someone else? That wouldn't be a debate, and I'm sure Bernie at least would try to steer it away from that.
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There's no guarantee that this won't happen. We take this risk why? I love Bernie but the idea of this debate makes me uncomfortable. Too much to lose, too little to gain. Unless Bernie's end-game is a third-party run or third-party endorsement (or perhaps withholding endorsement ala Ron Paul), which itself would be disastrous.

Dreamwriter said:
You also are talking as if it's guaranteed Clinton will be the nominee, but there's still a chance for Bernie, because the different in votes is something like 2.5 million, while California has something like 40 million people. Talking in terms of what really matters, the difference in pledged delegates is 271, while Caifornia has 475 pledged delegates available. If Bernie manages to get a 58% victory in California, then he will have the majority of pledged delegates over Clinton. At that point, it would be up to superdelegates to overturn Bernie. Which of course could very well happen, the entire point of superdelegates is for the Democratic Party to be able to change the result. I'm just saying, Bernie still has a chance.
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The superdelegate thing is not going to happen. It's not. Clinton is our nominee, for better or worse.
 
Vice said:
I believe this ignores states that have primaries in early June, such as NJ that lands on June 7 as well.
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That's true, California isn't the only state left. It's just the state with the largest number of delegates due to the largest population, so it's the state that has the highest ability to swing the election in Bernie's favor.
 
EskimoJoe said:
Yeah, it's not really very clear. What is clear to me, however is that the DNC (or certainly many members within if) are biased to towards Clinton. However, I haven't seen any evidence that this bias has manifested itself in any serious advantages towards Clinton that would account for her being in lead by a couple millions of votes. She's won this race because most people chose to vote for her, presumably because more people want her to be the candidate. Bernie wasn't cheated or robbed of it. He lost. Hopefully when Clinton is the nominee, she offers Sanders similar concessions to the ones Clinton was offered when Obama beat her.
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I appreciate that you see the bias. I have mentioned before, I do not think there is a grand conspiracy of sorts. I think there were issues on a state or county level, perpetrated by Clinton supporters unaffiliated with the DNC or Clinton and acting on their own accord, or more likely poor training and handling of the voting process, that has impacted the election. Is this impact significant enough to change the results? Probably not. Is it still infuriating to see this stuff happen in 2016 during the most important process in our country? Yes, yes it is.
 
SayItWithMe said:
She barely has a 5% lead over Trump in the GE and yet Sanders is about 18%....why would the DNC risk putting her up against him? Doesnt make sense to me...
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Because she is the candidate the people have voted for. In the same way the RNC may have preferred Rubio, Bush or anyone else over Trump or Cruz yet they picked Trump because he is what the people showed they wanted by voting.
 
GloriousBagel said:
Then vote for Trump if you don't care.
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Trump is a xenophobic, racist, populist asshole who gets into fights with random people when he offends them and refuses to apologize. He would not make a good president and would cause much damage if elected.

teruterubozu said:
So you're a politician?
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Nope.

IAmAnAgnostic said:
I mean.. I'll bite. Because it makes the politician not trustworthy in their policies, and their policies are the reason why you'd support them.
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That's a good reason not like someone for lying about their policies, and it is certainly a good reason for why someone shouldn't vote for someone. I am of the opinion that almost all politicians are liar when trying to get elected. You can't please everyone and you can't get everything passed. That's the reality of the situation. In cases like Hillary, where she follows the party line on what is popular, than I remain affiliated with her, because most likely while she cannot do everything she wants or everything she promises, she can try and doing the exact opposite will most certainly not get her re-elected or help her legacy in the future. She will have to make compromises, because that is how politics works, even with a Dem House & Senate.

legacyzero said:
Yet the only logical response I get from most Hillary supportersis how she's the safer option than Trump in the White House. Nobody wants to offer anything to rebut the clear evidence other than snark, dismissive comments, passive aggression, and deflextion. At worst they dogpile Bernie supporters in these threads, making most feel discouraged to come in them.

Case in point right here. Pure perfect example.

There is no serious answer for this other than "fuck it"
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Trump is the primary reason you should vote for Hillary. If you want to make this election into a lesser of two evils, than you can, but still Hillary will be a better President than Trump will.
 
Drewton said:
This probably wouldn't have happened if Hillary actually debated Bernie in California like they had agreed in NH.
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Exactly. It's kind of funny that Trump has to step in where Hillary dropped the ball.

This debate will make her look ridiculous.
I wonder why her campaign doesn't like debates? Sire seems suspicious to me.
 
This could go either way depending on how Bernie is going to act. Whether he is going to attack Trump or start shitting on Hillary (which he and Trump will probably both do)
 
Dreamwriter said:
I don't get it, you think it better not happen because you think for some reason Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump would spend an entire debate talking about someone else? That wouldn't be a debate, and I'm sure Bernie at least would try to steer it away from that.

You also are talking as if it's guaranteed Clinton will be the nominee, but there's still a chance for Bernie, because the different in votes is something like 2.5 million, while California has something like 40 million people. Talking in terms of what really matters, the difference in pledged delegates is 271, while Caifornia has 475 pledged delegates available. If Bernie manages to get a 58% victory in California, then he will have the majority of pledged delegates over Clinton. At that point, it would be up to superdelegates to overturn Bernie. Which of course could very well happen, the entire point of superdelegates is for the Democratic Party to be able to change the result. I'm just saying, Bernie still has a chance.
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Sanders needs far, far, far more than a 20 point win in California alone to make anyone even give a shit about his name at the convention (a 60-40 win for Sanders in California only reduces the gap between them by ~85). And he isn't even likely to win California. The race is not anything resembling close right now.
 
diablos991 said:
Exactly. It's kind of funny that Trump has to step in where Hillary dropped the ball.

This debate will make her look ridiculous.
I wonder why her campaign doesn't like debates? Sire seems suspicious to me.
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Would she really want to be questioned about the state department and the e-mails right now?
 
Eidan said:
But beyond that, the motherfucker has just straight up LOST. WHY would he want to debate the Republican nominee? To what end? Does he think this will just take back the fact that he lost? Does he think it will somehow lead to the circumventing of the will of the people? Does he think it helps to stop Donald Trump from getting elected in November? It altogether makes no sense. The man is an idiot.
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It helps get his views out. Yeah, at this point he knows he's not going to be President, but he still believes in his principles and wants to convince as many people as he can. Politics isn't all about elections.

And frankly, going against a Republican nominee who's gonna go soft on him is a great way of doing that. If Donald "tells it like it is!" Trump is on stage with Bernie "The Socialist" Sanders and seems agreeable to what he's saying, that's huge.
 
Vice said:
The DNC has reached out to Sanders by giving him influence over their platform though. Just last week.
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I'm aware of that. I'm still waiting to see how that plays out. I'm still voting Dem, whoever that may be, in the GE. I was merely making a point that seems to escape people at times, and that is that your support base and candidate is not the only thing that matters. Your voice is not the only voice speaking.
 
Vice said:
The DNC has reached out to Sanders by giving him influence over their platform though. Just last week.



He struggles to get the votes though.
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How so hasnt he wont the last 4 out of 5 states and is about to take California? And she won Kentucky by .5%...idk
 
SayItWithMe said:
She barely has a 5% lead over Trump in the GE and yet Sanders is about 18%....why would the DNC risk putting her up against him? Doesnt make sense to me...
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It is arguable that even Clinton v. Trump polls right now have no predictive power. Theoretical matchups of candidates that aren't getting the nomination are completely unpredictive.

You're also assuming Superdelegates are there for reasons other than why they were created, and that they'd do something they never did before, and that they'd do something that completely undermines their primary process, and that they've never paid attention to primary polling and are easily swayed by shit that pretty much no sitting politician has faith in.
 
SayItWithMe said:
She barely has a 5% lead over Trump in the GE and yet Sanders is about 18%....why would the DNC risk putting her up against him? Doesnt make sense to me...
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Because the media and Republican candidates have not focused their efforts on attacking Bernie and his policies.

And the DNC would "risk" it because she has more votes. .I'm confused how some Bernie supporters claim that this process is unfair but then suggest just giving him the nomination despite having fewer votes.
 
Mr Clutch said:
I appreciate that you see the bias. I have mentioned before, I do not think there is a grand conspiracy of sorts. I think there were issues on a state or county level, perpetrated by Clinton supporters unaffiliated with the DNC or Clinton and acting on their own accord, or more likely poor training and handling of the voting process, that has impacted the election. Is this impact significant enough to change the results? Probably not. Is it still infuriating to see this stuff happen in 2016 during the most important process in our country? Yes, yes it is.
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Yeah, I know what you mean. Glad to see we could reach common ground.

Modernizing or fixing our election process in America just seems like such a huge problem. Everyone knows what they want out of it, but I'm at a loss as to how to fix it. There are just so many large, seemingly intractable problems at play.
 
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