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[Bitch Pudding]

Well it'll have Halo 6. And Crackdown 3. And they'll probably uprez Gears if they're not already working on releasing it on both systems and planning accordingly. They may ask Platinum to beast out Scalebound too.

No, I am not talking about XBox One games on steroids, I mean true exclusive Scorpio games, which don't run on the old one.

 

[Vena]

Aha, so Sony basically just need to find a way to clock it higher to decrease the gap?
Jet engine console this time too? :/

Given the rumored release schedules, I doubt the Neo and Scorpio are that similar. You're not going to be overclocking in a console to such a degree (at least I don't think they would be), so the Scorpio is likely not running on the same base as the Neo and you cannot just "upclock" the Neo to reach the Scorpio.

Moreover, as I said before, I think Microsoft will use the Scorpio to dump the two short-comings that the X1 is straddled with: huge ESRAM and Jaguar/the cat u-arch. A new CPU and RAM config to take advantage of a massive GPU.

The Neo never had the ESRAM problem to solve, but it doesn't seem to be solving the Jaguar problem at all. That's going to strangle the gains on the GPU with a still-anemic CPU.

 

[RyudBoy]

Aside from being powerful, I want this thing to be able to play ALL Xbox, 360 and XB1 games. 360 and XB1 controller compatibility would also be a huge plus.

 

[-ImaginaryInsider]

It's a talking point though. Spewed by many including those on GAF. So it clearly holds some significance.

There will absolutely be some that jump ship, but I'm not sure I can see any kind of mass exodus away from Sony, I just see MS doing better and positioning itself for a better next generation run.

Power is important, but it usually isn't the winning factor in a normal generation shift, and during a mid-generation shift it might be even less important due to the vanilla consoles holding things back.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Aside from being powerful, I want this thing to be able to play ALL Xbox, 360 and XB1 games. 360 and XB1 controller compatibility would also be a huge plus.

Hell, if it did that, even i'd buy one, for compatibility with all my old Xbox and 360 games.

My 360 isn't going to last forever, and i want an excuse to buy Halo MCC(played H2A at a friend's house, elevated H2 to my favorite Halo game after having H3 and HR hold top spot)

 

[gofreak]

Given the rumored release schedules, I doubt the Neo and Scorpio are that similar. You're not going to be overclocking in a console to such a degree (at least I don't think they would be), so the Scorpio is likely not running on the same base as the Neo and you cannot just "upclock" the Neo to reach the Scorpio.

Moreover, as I said before, I think Microsoft will use the Scorpio to dump the two short-comings that the X1 is straddled with: huge ESRAM and Jaguar/the cat u-arch. A new CPU and RAM config to take advantage of a massive GPU.

The Neo never had the ESRAM problem to solve, but it doesn't seem to be solving the Jaguar problem at all. That's going to strangle the gains on the GPU with a still-anemic CPU.

Solely from a framerate point of view in CPU limited games, maybe, but that's far from the only way to use GPU power. That said, even just the clock bump to jaguar wouldn't go amiss from a framerate PoV in CPU bound games, as long as games are still being built around the original ps4.

 

[c0de]

We don't know this do we considering the rumours of new architecture.

Huh? Ms was able to make 360 games work on Xbox one. This was a different architecture. We age talking about a different uarch of the same isa.

 

[RedRum]

Aside from being powerful, I want this thing to be able to play ALL Xbox, 360 and XB1 games. 360 and XB1 controller compatibility would also be a huge plus.

If it could do this I would be all in.

 

[MilkyJoe]

I think you're just seeing what you want to see. I'm fairly active on the X1 Reddit and many have the same concerns there regarding the next iteration of the console, many have displayed some concern on gaf just the same. I saw so many dang posts of people saying they felt ripped off for buying day one just hours ago. I don't agree personally, but the people are there. Your statement is disingenuous and teetering on the edge of willful ignorance.

I'm iffy on both, but will wait and see.

Ripped off that 4 years later a successor will drop and they will still get another 2 to 3 years support? Extraordinary...

 

[RyudBoy]

Hell, if it did that, even i'd buy one, for compatibility with all my old Xbox and 360 games.

If they are indeed going to name it "Xbox" then I'd expect them to do this. Would be a big deal.

If it could do this I would be all in.

 

[Inuhanyou]

If they are indeed going to name it "Xbox" then I'd expect them to do this. Would be a big deal.

But i mean, if they were going to do it, it would have to be 100% compatibility with all the previous gens, and i mean no fuck ups whatsoever, even for demo discs.

And the games would have to run from disc, no downloading big files.

 

[le.phat]

Don't be so sure. If they put in Zen and HBM2 AND Vega, and angle it for next year, that will have been pretty much a generational upgrade, especially on the CPU and RAM sides.

CPU power has been the one thing that has been lacking on consoles since the start of seventh generation, and Zen presumably would put them back in the high tier, even with a lower powered console/notebook variant

A generational leap, while the current gen hasnt peaked yet, and the install base is at 60 million. I'm sure publishers will be thrilled about Making software for this platform. Best thing you can hope for is getting pc ports of most game releases. Add in a premium price and they have a cracker on their hands!

 

[Inuhanyou]

A generational leap, while the current gen hasnt peaked yet, and the install base is at 60 million. I'm sure publishers will be thrilled about Making software for this platform. Best thing you can hope for is getting pc ports of most game releases. Add in a premium price and they have a cracker on their hands!

Hey, its not my plan. I'm just saying they are going for a pretty big leap based on what we know.

 

[truth411]

Given the rumored release schedules, I doubt the Neo and Scorpio are that similar. You're not going to be overclocking in a console to such a degree (at least I don't think they would be), so the Scorpio is likely not running on the same base as the Neo and you cannot just "upclock" the Neo to reach the Scorpio.

Moreover, as I said before, I think Microsoft will use the Scorpio to dump the two short-comings that the X1 is straddled with: huge ESRAM and Jaguar/the cat u-arch. A new CPU and RAM config to take advantage of a massive GPU.

The Neo never had the ESRAM problem to solve, but it doesn't seem to be solving the Jaguar problem at all. That's going to strangle the gains on the GPU with a still-anemic CPU.

The Xbox sounds more like a straight up new console generation. MS jumping ship but will be backwards compatible. Sony is PS4K is literally a supped up PS4 as a mid generation boost. That's how I see it.

 

[RyudBoy]

But i mean, if they were going to do it, it would have to be 100% compatibility with all the previous gens, and i mean no fuck ups whatsoever, even for demo discs.

And the games would have to run from disc, no downloading big files.

Agreed. I still have a lot of OG Xbox games. Still have the console but I'm never gonna hook it again.

 

[Panajev2001a]

I think this will end up being the new generational upgrade. This along with backward/forward compatibility, makes me think the very definition of console generations is about to get much fuzzier moving forward.

Welcome to a never ending rolling cross gen games period?

 

[Panajev2001a]

But i mean, if they were going to do it, it would have to be 100% compatibility with all the previous gens, and i mean no fuck ups whatsoever, even for demo discs.

And the games would have to run from disc, no downloading big files.

I think that all of this is one of the reasons they went for a fully virtualised GPU solution, to isolate this component from the OS and especially the games. It will be. Also to port the hyoervisor and virtualisation layers around, but it should allow for more drastic hardware changes in some components at the cost of performance (difficult for games to be delivered with 100% of the component performance and time behind virtualisation).

 

[Inuhanyou]

Agreed. I still have a lot of OG Xbox games. Still have the console but I'm never gonna hook it again.

The best playing OG Xbox 360 compatible titles(the Ninja Gaiden games, the DOA games, Halo 2) run and look better than they did on OG Xbox ...i wanna see that times 2 and for every game

 

[MilkyJoe]

The best playing OG Xbox 360 compatible titles(the Ninja Gaiden games, the DOA games, Halo 2) run and look better than they did on OG Xbox ...i wanna see that times 2 and for every game

I was thinking the same. If scorpio could play OG/360/Xbone games then it really would be a huge pull.

 

[Panajev2001a]

The best playing OG Xbox 360 compatible titles(the Ninja Gaiden games, the DOA games, Halo 2) run and look better than they did on OG Xbox ...i wanna see that times 2 and for every game

I hope they sort OG Xbox emulation out better than they did with the Xbox 360.
Halo 2 had plenty of small glitches on the Xbox 360 when I last beat it, including the menu/game HUD being at times burnt in the image, like a partially transparent layer.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Zen would also be out considering we don't have any word from Sony about including Zen, and the turnaround between the two publishers would not be that fast.

Of course we did hear rumors about them including a better CPU for 499...but what exactly is MS's plan if that is their plan? Gonna eat the cost of a Zen CPU, HBM2 AND a brand new Vega variant like that?

Couldn't the choice for CPU also include Excavator? It's in Carrizio @ 28nm while Mullins and Bemma are using a Puma + cat core but they are ultra low power.

Zen and Excavator are designed with DDR3/4 in mind thus they have large Cache. If one of them is to be used with GDDR5 or HBM then the cache could be decreased. So the choice is a Cat Core or a cut down version of Excavator or Zen with reduced cache. There was a rumor that Sony was deciding on a faster CPU @ $100 more. This has to be old news and already decided and I'd guess the more expensive CPU would have been Zen. Excavator is in Carrizio and Puma+ is rumored to be in Carrizio-L so it could be either. Hopefully it will be an Embedded version of Excavator with reduced cache used by both Neo and Scorpio.....eExcavator?

The main difference between with Carrizo and Carrizo-L is that Carrizo will ship with Excavator cores while Carrizo-L will feature PUMA+ Cores. The desktop part will be on FM2+. However the video did confirm that there isn’t going to be any sort of HBM or stacked DRAM technology available on Carrizo so we have to wait a bit longer to see that in action.

For what it's worth; Seronx is about 60% accurate in his predictions. For example, he could have been told that eExcavator will be used in the game consoles but has no idea what that means. He seems to think the lower case "e" means enhanced and I think it means cut down for "e"mbedded applications. 8 Excavator cores are 4 packages of 2 cpus each that share (CMT) floating point and other accelerators.

He also states the GPU CUs will be ePolaris and eVega which I again think means embedded. Embedded is a term which for CE (Consumer electronics) usually means hidden/part of at a low level and Playready DRM is only allowed on "Embedded platforms" which for AMD means a ARM trustzone protected TEE. For the PS3 it means a Cell hypervisor protected kernel. In this case it could be a semi-custom design differing from main-line dGPU designs in some way.

It has come to my attention that...

Playstation Neo;
8 eExcavator Cores @ 2.1 GHz (Base)
28 ePolaris CUs @ 1.2 GHz (Base)
GDDR5X

Xbox Ultra or Xbox Two;
8 eExcavator Cores @ x? GHz (Base)
56 eVega CUs @ x? GHz (Base)
HBM2

Xbox One-S;
8 Cheetah/Tiger Cores @ 1.75 GHz (Base)
12 ePolaris CUs @ 0.853 GHz (Base)
eSRAM/DDR4
*[Don't know if there will be a Playstation 4-S]

If the above is accurate I'd guess the following:

PS4 Neo = 4+ TF $399 (rumored price) late this year?
Xbox Ultra = 6+ TF $499? 2017 some time?
Xbox 1-S = 2 TF $350 or less? coming out late this year as the rumored Slim?

 

[Inuhanyou]

I hope they sort OG Xbox emulation out better than they did with the Xbox 360.
Halo 2 had plenty of small glitches on the Xbox 360 when I last beat it, including the menu/game HUD being at times burnt in the image, like a partially transparent layer.

Yep, i recall that about Halo 2...and you can't even really play Halo CE cause the framerate tanks in firefights significantly to around half the 30fps target, its just not fun to play it that way.

 

[MilkyJoe]

Couldn't the choice for CPU also include Excavator? It's in Carrizio @ 28nm while Mullins and Bemma are using a Puma + cat core but they are ultra low power.

Zen and Excavator are designed with DDR3/4 in mind thus they have large Cache. If one of them is to be used with GDDR5 or HBM then the cache could be decreased. So the choice is a Cat Core or a cut down version of Excavator or Zen with reduced cache. There was a rumor that Sony was deciding on a faster CPU @ $100 more. This has to be old news and already decided and I'd guess the more expensive CPU would have been Zen. Excavator is in Carrizio and Puma+ is rumored to be in Carrizio-L so it could be either. Hopefully it will be an Embedded version of Excavator with reduced cache used by both Neo and Scorpio.....eExcavator?



For what it's worth; Seronx is about 60% accurate in his predictions. For example, he could have been told that eExcavator will be used in the game consoles but has no idea what that means. He seems to think the lower case "e" means enhanced and I think it means cut down for "e"mbedded applications. 8 Excavator cores are 4 packages of 2 cpus each that share (CMT) floating point and other accelerators.

He also states the GPU CUs will be ePolaris and eVega which I again think means embedded. Embedded is a term which for CE (Consumer electronics) usually means hidden/part of at a low level and Playready DRM is only allowed on "Embedded platforms" which for AMD means a ARM trustzone protected TEE. For the PS3 it means a Cell hypervisor protected kernel. In this case it could be a semi-custom design differing from main-line dGPU designs in some way.

Every post after that one calls it bullshit.

 

[Shpeshal Nick]

No, I am not talking about XBox One games on steroids, I mean true exclusive Scorpio games, which don't run on the old one.

I'd say they'll let Devs target Scorpio once Xbox One turns 5.

 

[Chobel]

Holy shit at the GPU! MS is sure going all out to take back "The most powerful console" title.

Reveal this year though? This doesn't make any fucking sense.

 

[MilkyJoe]

Reveal this year though? This doesn't make any fucking sense.

Lets people know that it's coming before they invest in PS4K and PSVR... ?

 

[jeff_rigby]

Every post after that one calls it bullshit.

So you expect Cat cores to keep up with double and triple the GPU size? Or you expect the more expensive ZEN cores to be used?

Could be wrong but it's logically consistent. The smaller less powerful XB1-S still using cat cores while the larger NEO and Scorpio using eExcavator.

 

[Nightengale]

Lets people know that it's coming before they invest in PS4K and PSVR... ?

Well, that's a huge biz risk to take.

 

[MilkyJoe]

Well, that's a huge biz risk to take.

Its just an "Fyi"

 

[Black Mantis]

Aside from being powerful, I want this thing to be able to play ALL Xbox, 360 and XB1 games. 360 and XB1 controller compatibility would also be a huge plus.

This seems very likely imo, the amount they spent on R&D for it made no sense for just 1 console generation, so I definitely expect compatibility. Not for the 360 controller though.

 

[Herb Alpert]

Lets people know that it's coming before they invest in PS4K and PSVR... ?

Oh yeah.

"Hey guys, just wait a year and a half to buy our machine, it will be great!! Now let's see some games on our current machine that you won't buy either cause you'll wait a year and a half for our CRAZY POWERFUL CONSOLE"

 

[00ich]

Its just an "Fyi"

It still poisons the current Xbox One until mid 2017. There's no way to spin the message that doesn't make the current Xbox outdated and soon obsolete.

 

[c0de]

Oh yeah.

"Hey guys, just wait a year and a half to buy our machine, it will be great!! Now let's see some games on our current machine that you won't buy either cause you'll wait a year and a half for our CRAZY POWERFUL CONSOLE"

Well, that kind of was the strategy Sony was going for with ps3... And funny enough, some people actually waited.

 

[Leyasu]

Unless although unlikely it's coming this year!! I would love it to, but I doubt it

 

[Bitch Pudding]

Lets people know that it's coming before they invest in PS4K and PSVR... ?

Direct copy of my recent post from the XBOX E3 info thread...


I get your reasoning, but I am not sure if this works out for them.

The main reason being the price for a mandatory Scorpio XBox and the OR set, which right know sums up to a whopping €1.100 to €1.200 (depening on Scorpio's price). And that's the price w/o a dedicated VR controller.

PSVR starts at €750 (w/ vanilla PS4, camera and standard controller) resp. €900 (w/ PS4 Neo and Move controllers), so it's a lot cheaper. Not to mention the 40mn+ PS4 owners who can start their VR experience with a €450 investment, in 5 months btw.

I am not sure if the extra beef of Scorpio and the (slightly) superior OR set will make up for that price gap (yeah, I am aware OR will get cheaper at some point, but so will PSVR).

So, long story short, VR on Scorpio will be a premium prices experience, hence the mass market as well as early adopters will most likely go with PSVR instead of waiting another year.

And my point is: The damage this early announcement of VR on Scorpio resp. the Scorpio itself does to Sony's VR plans (and Nintendo NX for all we know) is obscure. Best case scenario is it will prevent current XBOX owners from switching to the Sony platform. But vice versa? I don't think so. Instead, people will think twice before they purchase an XBOX One Slim if they announce it will be superseded by a new SKU (or whatever) just a year later.

So I really doubt they officially announce Scorpio anytime soon, they'll just shoot themselves in the foot.

 

[Sikamikanico]

I think if Oculus are working with Xbox this closely, it won't be the current Oculus model. It'll be a specifically designed Xbox OR with cheaper components etc etc.

At least, that's what I think.

 

[EGM1966]

I think if Oculus are working with Xbox this closely, it won't be the current Oculus model. It'll be a specifically designed Xbox OR with cheaper components etc etc.

At least, that's what I think.

Possible but to be honest I get the feeling they've been working hard on bring the cost of OR down as much as possible anyway so I'm not sure they'd really be that much legroom for further reductions without harming the actual experience. If MS go with a custom OR that's cut back and too similar in experience to PSVR then customers are going to end up looking at price as a decider vs superior experience and I expect Scoprio (assuming it is as the rumours suggest) and OR to still be a more expensive combo than NEO/PSVR (assuming NEO is as the rumours suggest).

Alternatively MS might be making a move to a different price point/demographic with Scorpio looking to sell less vs traditional console mass market and appeal instead to the more enthusiast market who'd prefer this option to a PC.

Given they seem to be swinging back to PC general devices/services I wonder if they're more interested in combating Valve/Steam and their "PC in the living room steambox and big picture" initiatives with Scorpio tied to the W10 / Store moves and leaving mass market for XB1 (presumably a slim revision) and PS4.

 

[chromatic9]

It still poisons the current Xbox One until mid 2017. There's no way to spin the message that doesn't make the current Xbox outdated and soon obsolete.

Not if the price difference is large enough. The smaller model might be quite a bit cheaper. Also maybe bring in VR to the message so it will be seen as a enthusiast VR box. There's a whole tier of people in the $200 range who don't care or even know about better expensive products that exist or are going to.

Both these machines are risking upsetting the market though.

 

[LowEndTorque]

No, I am not talking about XBox One games on steroids, I mean true exclusive Scorpio games, which don't run on the old one.

The Neo leaks said that every PS4 game must have a Neo mode, but that Sony would not be allowing any games to be exclusive to Neo. Don't know if MS has the same plans for Scorpio.

 

[Odorono]

The Neo leaks said that every PS4 game must have a Neo mode, but that Sony would not be allowing any games to be exclusive to Neo. Don't know if MS has the same plans for Scorpio.

Hope not..It's only going to hold them back.

 

[nekkid]

Hope not..It's only going to hold them back.

Halo 6, Scorpio only. Here's hoping.

 

[Chobel]

Lets people know that it's coming before they invest in PS4K and PSVR... ?

It also lets people know that it's coming before they invest in XB1.

Not if the price difference is large enough. The smaller model might be quite a bit cheaper. Also maybe bring in VR to the message so it will be seen as a enthusiast VR box. There's a whole tier of people in the $200 range who don't care or even know about better expensive products that exist or are going to.

Both these machines are risking upsetting the market though.

Except MS is not gonna announce the price of Scorpio this year, only that they have a new way better Xbox coming next year.

 

[MilkyJoe]

Direct copy of my recent post from the XBOX E3 info thread...


I get your reasoning, but I am not sure if this works out for them.

The main reason being the price for a mandatory Scorpio XBox and the OR set, which right know sums up to a whopping €1.100 to €1.200 (depening on Scorpio's price). And that's the price w/o a dedicated VR controller.

PSVR starts at €750 (w/ vanilla PS4, camera and standard controller) resp. €900 (w/ PS4 Neo and Move controllers), so it's a lot cheaper. Not to mention the 40mn+ PS4 owners who can start their VR experience with a €450 investment, in 5 months btw.

I am not sure if the extra beef of Scorpio and the (slightly) superior OR set will make up for that price gap (yeah, I am aware OR will get cheaper at some point, but so will PSVR).

So, long story short, VR on Scorpio will be a premium prices experience, hence the mass market as well as early adopters will most likely go with PSVR instead of waiting another year.

And my point is: The damage this early announcement of VR on Scorpio resp. the Scorpio itself does to Sony's VR plans (and Nintendo NX for all we know) is obscure. Best case scenario is it will prevent current XBOX owners from switching to the Sony platform. But vice versa? I don't think so. Instead, people will think twice before they purchase an XBOX One Slim if they announce it will be superseded by a new SKU (or whatever) just a year later.

So I really doubt they officially announce Scorpio anytime soon, they'll just shoot themselves in the foot.

Agreen and if someone plums £750+ into PSVR they are unlikely to ever pick up a Scorpio. That's why I think they need/will at the very least, hint that it is coming,

Also there was a that post many pages back with the link to the software house saying they are showing VR game for PS4 and XB1. So cat is out of the bag there.

It also lets people know that it's coming before they invest in XB1.

I think even MS know the xbone is a no go for the future with it's core audience. Scorpio will be the flagship

 

[gaming_noob]

Matt, one of our insiders on Neogaf said this back in April in a thread where the question was about if the next Xbox would 'blow the Neo out of the water'. The Neo and Scorpio could very well be close in power and if that's the case then releasing the latter in Fall 2017 would be a mistake.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=201445406&postcount=557

 

[LowEndTorque]

Hope not..It's only going to hold them back.

It’s a tricky decision to make.

By not having Scorpio exclusive games, you’re not tapping into the hardware potential. This is a drawback. But once you start making games exclusive Scorpio, you’re treating it as a new generation instead of a premium version of the current generation. This has the even bigger drawback of alienating and pissing off your installed base.

 

[00ich]

Hope not..It's only going to hold them back.

GAF would be down from all the complaining

 

[c0de]

It’s a tricky decision to make.

By not having Scorpio exclusive games, you’re not tapping into the hardware potential.

Why not? PC games already way beyond what Xbox one and ps4 can ever do, with the same games.

 

[nekkid]

It’s a tricky decision to make.

By not having Scorpio exclusive games, you’re not tapping into the hardware potential. This is a drawback. But once you start making games exclusive Scorpio, you’re treating it as a new generation instead of a premium version of the current generation. This has the even bigger drawback of alienating and pissing off your installed base.

With my realistic hat on, you're right - if you limit something like Halo 6 to Scorpio you're going to severely limit who will buy it. So you have to then compromise on performance for OG XB1, such as 30fps or lower resolution: that's fine, to be honest.

However, my concern is that you hinder the ability to do things that can't be scaled like that. What if 343i wanted to do a BF scale Halo mode, but can't because of the platforms they are obliged to support?

 

[pieface]

I can't see them announcing it at this E3 for a release next year.

I also can't see them releasing such a beefed up console this year.

Personally I don't think we'll hear anything about Scorpio at this E3.

 

[Chobel]

I think even MS know the xbone is a no go for the future with it's core audience. Scorpio will be the flagship

They're launhcing a new XB1 slim SKU this year. Announcing Scorpio will sure fuck up their plans.