Support NeoGAF

[Obscuritas]

But they won't be "Cross gen", they will be all the same gen just different tiers, like PC. PC doesn't suffer because of this neither would console, think you are looking at it the right way. Having to restart over from scratch every gen is stupid. Generations are a thing of the past.

Yeaaah, I don't get the "It would be the same as PC" argument either, and probably a lot of developers won't love this disparity too.

The gamer in me clearly wants this iterative concept to succeed without any hindrance, but I really can't get past the idea that also well-optimized games will be a thing of the past.

 

[Panajev2001a]

But they won't be "Cross gen", they will be all the same gen just different tiers, like PC. PC doesn't suffer because of this neither would console, think you are looking at it the right way.

I think PC and mobiles both suffer. You also said it would not be cross gen while describing what cross gen and problems for cross gen titles are exactly about.

Do you really think that after 8 years of best practices and tools refinement on last generation consoles that it was anything beyond the "different performance/features tiers" as you put it holding true cross generation games back?

Having to restart over from scratch every gen is stupid. Generations are a thing of the past.

Nobody said you have to reboot the architecture from scratch every generation. Generations or yearly iterations, this was never the point.

The only was generations are stupid and obsolete is in the eyes of the manufacturer which hopes to tie its customers to the platform and make it more difficult for them to switch eco system away from the current platform essentially extending it with regular iterations and enforced forward as well as backward compatibility. Also, now that they are moving away from a HW loss leading model, selling more hardware iterations is also a big plus in their books too.

Generations with relatively fixed hardware specs and with a relatively small transition windows were, are, and IMHO should still be the defining factor of the console experience. As a consumer and as a developer I see more benefits in more stability and predictability than an event evolving moving target.

 

[MilkyJoe]

A similar number to 360 owners that bought a Slim?

Who buys them that already own a working xbox one, then.

The point is that people are saying "who is the Scorpio for" need to just step away from the keyboard for a while.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Yeaaah, I don't get the "It would be the same as PC" argument either, and probably a lot of developers won't love this disparity too.

The gamer in me clearly wants this iterative concept to succeed without any hindrance, but I really can't get past the idea that also well-optimized games will be a thing of the past.

What is the benefit for you as a gamer? Where do you see value in exactly?

 

[Interfectum]

What is the benefit for you as a gamer? Where do you see value in exactly?

The value is your gaming library continues past the current gen. The same reason why gamers see value in Steam now potentially exists with PSN and Xbox.

 

[c0de]

A similar number to 360 owners that bought a Slim?

Who even buys slim consoles? Well, casual people, collectors, fanboys to name just a few groups.

 

[MilkyJoe]

What is the benefit for you as a gamer? Where do you see value in exactly?

Shorter time between consoles?
Full BC forever?
Devs more likely to take chances because the install base is not re-set at the beginning of each gen?

 

[Chris1]

The value is your gaming library continues past the current gen. The same reason why gamers see value in Steam now potentially exists with PSN and Xbox.

The exact same thing can be achieved with Backwards Compatibility without there being shit ports, competitive disadvantages and games being held back for weaker hardware.

Honestly I'd rather full generations with BC than this nonsense

Devs more likely to take chances because the install base is not re-set at the beginning of each gen?

We've saw devs take more chances this gen at the start with a smaller install base than they did last gen near the end, so this doesn't make much sense.

 

[MilkyJoe]

The exact same thing can be achieved with Backwards Compatibility without there being shit ports, competitive disadvantages and games being held back for weaker hardware.

Honestly I'd rather full generations with BC than this nonsense

It will be scalable. Stop being a negative Nancy.

 

[Chobel]

Who buys them that already own a working xbox one, then.

The point is that people are saying "who is the Scorpio for" need to just step away from the keyboard for a while.

Are you talking about me? Because if so, you clearly misunderstood my post.

And to this "Who buys them that already own a working xbox one, then."... No. The majority of the slim (or generally newer) models are gonna be new owners.

 

[Chris1]

It will be scalable. Stop being a negative Nancy.

Of course it'll be scalable, that doesn't mean I want to play last gen black ops 3 tier "ports" or "scaled down" or call it what you want unless I fork our £400 every 2-3 years.

 

[suddenlyissoon]

So basically Scorpio's 6 TFLOPS would best the just announced RX 480 that is 5.5 TFLOPS? If true, that'd be awesome...but I'd say it's not.

 

[dragonelite]

The exact same thing can be achieved with Backwards Compatibility without there being shit ports, competitive disadvantages and games being held back for weaker hardware.

Honestly I'd rather full generations with BC than this nonsense.

Then buy everyother iteration. Or buy the latest sku after owning your current sku for
5~7 years.

 

[Asmodai48]

So basically Scorpio's 6 TFLOPS would best the just announced RX 480 that is 5.5 TFLOPS? If true, that'd be awesome...but I'd say it's not.

The 480 is only a mainstream card in 2016. It wouldn't be that unusual if it happened in 2017.

 

[Chris1]

Then buy everyother iteration. Or buy the latest sku after owning your current sku for
5~7 years.

How does that fix the problem?

There's still going to be shit ports/downscaled/whatever for the weaker version, the more powerful version is still going to be held back by the weaker version and there's still going to be competitive disadvantages (or advantages)

Buying into it doesn't fix anything, it only gives MS and Sony the illusion of it being acceptable.

 

[-ImaginaryInsider]

Shorter time between consoles?
Full BC forever?
Devs more likely to take chances because the install base is not re-set at the beginning of each gen?

Also it allows for them to adapt, if some major technology or trend comes out, a mid-generation update allows them to incorporate those changes without having to wait until the next traditional generation starts.

We're getting better VR quality sooner because of Neo and Scorpio.

 

[darkinstinct]

So basically Scorpio's 6 TFLOPS would best the just announced RX 480 that is 5.5 TFLOPS? If true, that'd be awesome...but I'd say it's not.

You're comparing a SOC with a GPU. That's not how it works.

 

[dragonelite]

How does that fix the problem?

There's still going to be shit ports/downscaled/whatever for the weaker version, the more powerful version is still going to be held back by the weaker version and there's still going to be competitive disadvantages (or advantages)

Buying into it doesn't fix anything, it only gives MS and Sony the illusion of it being acceptable.

I would guess devs can stop supporting sku older then 6 years.

 

[MysteryM]

Of course it'll be scalable, that doesn't mean I want to play last gen black ops 3 tier "ports" or "scaled down" or call it what you want unless I fork our £400 every 2-3 years.

You still get to play the same version you were going to get anyhow, the point is that its a scaled down version compared to the Scorpio, no different to third party console games being scaled down equivalents of pc versions.

Edit: The best bet is to consider the one as having ended its generation on year four, yes it will still receive games and yes you can play via forwards compatibility, however MS lost this gen and are eager to press the reset button to go onto the next.

 

[InfiniteUnrest]

[...]but I really can't get past the idea that also well-optimized games will be a thing of the past.

I wouldn't think this will be the case, because this looks to be the first time where development is performed upon basically the same architecture from iteration/generation to iteration/generation. In generations past, the architecture completely changed, and game engines had to be built from scratch or re-optimized for the new architecture. Much of the optimization should carry over if the architecture of the hardware is for the most part identical.

 

[Chris1]

You still get to play the same version you were going to get anyhow, the point is that its a scaled down version compared to the Scorpio, no different to third party console games being scaled down equivalents of pc versions.

That's not true though, more powerful hardware does hurt the lesser hardwares versions of the game. Using the Bo3 example above, that game wouldn't have released in such a shitty state if more powerful consoles weren't out. Of course I don't think we'll get anything as bad as that, the precedent is there.

Or for example, since NEO requires to run better than the PS4, who's to say dev's don't just focus on Neo/Scorpion to get it 30/60fps locked then put out any old shit for the PS4/Xbox. Basically once these iteration consoles take off, instead of focusing on the XB1/PS4 and fully optimizing it like they'd do now, they'll just focus on Neo/Scorpio and do whatever for last gen. It happened with cross gen games this gen, you'd be foolish to think it's not going to happen with Neo/Scorpion. That's not the version i'd get "anyhow", that's a gimped version running at god knows what FPS because it has to keep up with Neo/Scorpio graphics.

 

[Chronospherics]

Some people say Sony would not let MS have the more powerful hardware, but i don't see why not. Look at PS360, sure the PS3 was slightly more powerful but it also had to cope with slightly lesser multiplatform games, but despite all that the PS3 sold pretty damn well. I really doubt the userbase of PS4 will make Xbox their main system anytime soon, so i think they will be ok.

I think they might be worried about it becoming a more viable platform for VR and aspects like that.

That said, Sony may just launch the Neo this year then announced a more powerful system for 2018. If revealed in 2017 and more powerful than the one, that would kill a lot of the buzz for the ONE-2. I imagine that might be the sensible route if they're planning incremental hardware upgrades.

 

[d00d3n]

I have a 2xTitan X Water Cooled PC and still love playing my Consoles (Xbox One/PS4). My PC handles many games at 4k/60fps and a lot of times, I still play many games on Console. Why else do you think many PC gamers also have at least one of the next gen consoles? Sometimes for me, I like the simplicity of a console...that won't change with the Neo/Scorpio.

I own all of the next-gen consoles and a Titan X PC. Sure, convenience may matter for some, but I think platform preference from your friends and exclusive releases (timed or otherwise) matter more for people who also own serious gaming PCs. Personally, I have only bought exclusive releases for PS4, Xbone and WiiU (although some of them were only timed, like JAP Dark Souls III).

 

[Lord Error]

How does that fix the problem?

There's still going to be shit ports/downscaled/whatever for the weaker version,

That would happen regardless. As the console generation is nearing its end there inevitably come some games that push the machines past what's doable on them at a good framerate. Look at SotC or (to a much lesser degree) The Last of Us. You could say for both those games that they were 'doenscaled' versions of the eventually released upports on the next consoles. L

 

[MilkyJoe]

Are you talking about me? Because if so, you clearly misunderstood my post.

And to this "Who buys them that already own a working xbox one, then."... No. The majority of the slim (or generally newer) models are gonna be new owners.

No was not pointed directly at you, sorry that came across as a bit nasty, my apologies.

Of course it'll be scalable, that doesn't mean I want to play last gen black ops 3 tier "ports" or "scaled down" or call it what you want unless I fork our £400 every 2-3 years.

I think it'll be 4. They have to step back and be sensible about this.

 

[Jarod McChicken]

So, let's say you got PS4 Neo Q4 2016 with 4TFLOPS and Xbox One Scorpio Q4 2017 with 6TFLOPS.

You are the legendary Microsoft marketing team. How do you tell people to not buy PS4 Neo exactly ? How is that 2TFLOPS advantage does translate for the average user across PR and trailers ? The only Digital Foundry face off during 2017 would be those who show how PS4 Neo games are over Xbox One games. Finally, by the time the Scorpio is supposed to come to the market, there will be something like 70 million PS4 across the globe. Do you see a lot of publishers working on Scorpio as a lead platform from there ?

 

[Chris1]

That would happen regardless. As the console generation is nearing its end there inevitably come some games that push the machines past what's doable on them at a good framerate. Look at SotC or (to a much lesser degree) The Last of Us. You could say for both those games that they were 'doenscaled' versions of the eventually released upports on the next consoles. L

But they weren't, TLOU (never played but looks good graphically), Halo 4, GTA V etc all pushed the last gen consoles to the limits because they were focusing on them for so long. The next gen versions are upscaled last gen game, that much is clear and not the other way around. That's a bit different to them running crap because developers stopped caring about those consoles.

With these iterations the Xbox One and PS4 will probably never get their Halo 4's, GTA V's, TLOU's, etc because they will never push the system to the limit, as they'll have moved onto the Scorpio or Scorpio 2 etc by then. We're getting new systems this year (Neo anyways) and which game has pushed the PS4 to it's limits? absolutely none. Yes Uncharted 4 looks good but it's barely scratching the surface on what the console can do, if we never had these iteration consoles coming out, people will probably be looking back on U4 after TLOU2/3 comes out and thinking it looks bad. There's just no way Naughty Dog (or any developer out) has fully maxed out these consoles yet, and that's why I really don't see the need for upgraded consoles. Well that and I think games look fucking amazing as it is, what we need is better games, not better graphics.

 

[JumPeRJumPzZ]

So, let's say you got PS4 Neo Q4 2016 with 4TFLOPS and Xbox One Scorpio Q4 2017 with 6TFLOPS.

You are the legendary Microsoft marketing team. How do you tell people to not buy PS4 Neo exactly ? How is that 2TFLOPS advantage does translate for the average user across PR and trailers ? The only Digital Foundry face off during 2017 would be those who show how PS4 Neo games are trumping Xbox One games. Finally, by the time the Scorpio is supposed to come to the market, there will be something like 70 million PS4 across the globe. Do you see a lot of publishers working on Scorpio as a lead platform from there ?

You know, Xbox will continue to sell too...

 

[Jarod McChicken]

You know, Xbox will continue to sell too...

Of course it will. I'm curious about how you communicate that power advantage to the public to tell him "wait ! something's better is coming" (kinda remind me of the old N64 ads)

 

[JumPeRJumPzZ]

We're getting new systems this year (Neo anyways) and which game has pushed the PS4 to it's limits? absolutely none. Yes Uncharted 4 looks good but it's barely scratching the surface on what the console can do,

I wouldnt be so sure about that... PS4 isnt some kind of exotic Hardware devs have to learn... its basicly a low end PC.

And "barely" scratching the surface? Cmon pls.

 

[MysteryM]

That's not true though, more powerful hardware does hurt the lesser hardwares versions of the game. Using the Bo3 example above, that game wouldn't have released in such a shitty state if more powerful consoles weren't out. Of course I don't think we'll get anything as bad as that, the precedent is there.

That's a tough call to make given that the architectures of the Scorpio is so similar to the xbox one (x86/amd gpu). Yes I appreciate that a developer focusing on one version could conceivably make a much better job of it, but its not like going from xenon (PowerPC) to x86.

 

[MilkyJoe]

So, let's say you got PS4 Neo Q4 2016 with 4TFLOPS and Xbox One Scorpio Q4 2017 with 6TFLOPS.

You are the legendary Microsoft marketing team. How do you tell people to not buy PS4 Neo exactly ? How is that 2TFLOPS advantage does translate for the average user across PR and trailers ? The only Digital Foundry face off during 2017 would be those who show how PS4 Neo games are over Xbox One games. Finally, by the time the Scorpio is supposed to come to the market, there will be something like 70 million PS4 across the globe. Do you see a lot of publishers working on Scorpio as a lead platform from there ?

"That's right, Folks! More than a whole extra PS4 worth of power under the bonnet..."

 

[Chris1]

I wouldnt be so sure about that... PS4 isnt some kind of exotic Hardware devs have to learn... its basicly a low end PC.

And "barely" scratching the surface? Cmon pls.

Might be exaggurating slightly on the barely scratching the surface part

So you think Naughty Dog maxed out the PS4 on their first attempt? there's no way you truly believe that when games are continuously improving in graphics as it is, let alone from the same developer with even more experience on that hardware/engine. And they don't have to learn the hardware because it's basically a low end PC? Then why did Bethesda port Skyrim over to XB1 to learn it for Fallout 4?

 

[I Reclaim3mer 117]

I wouldnt be so sure about that... PS4 isnt some kind of exotic Hardware devs have to learn... its basicly a low end PC.

And "barely" scratching the surface? Cmon pls.

Wait what? Developers are only scratching the surface of what the ps4 can do? Yet Sony is bringing out updated hardware where do you think internally the pressure for new hardware is coming from?! Developers are probably sick of fanboy bs and flops and fps and resolution affecting their game sales. Both these machines where crippled to make profits both needed to be what the rumored specs are for their perspective upgrades.

 

[Muzicfreq]

... All these new console news bits are more and more sounding like pure BS.

Also with games like Ratchet and Clank, Uncharted 4, overwatch, Doom, and how they look and perform makes these new machines sound and look like a waste of money and time when they could more focus on a next gen machine instead.

 

[SenjutsuSage]

I mean... PC is fine right? Is PC having trouble maximizing graphics in games? A lot of these third parties release on PC too. Why would they have trouble utilizing the Scorpio all of a sudden? The didn't have any trouble upping the rez on PS4 games vs. XB1.




Maybe they'll release Ryse Scorpio edition for you bud. Then you'll be there day 1

Halo 6 and a potential quantum break sequel is already enough to get me there day one.

 

[dose]

Shorter time between consoles?
Full BC forever?
Devs more likely to take chances because the install base is not re-set at the beginning of each gen?

Shorter time between consoles, why is that a plus?! That is a minus in my book.
As for BC, Chris1 rightly points out that a new gen console with BC covers that, no need for an iterative version.
I think devs are less likely to take chances as it will be a moving platform. Whena game can take 3 years to make, who knows what machine will be out by then?

 

[Curufinwe]

Halo 6 and a potential quantum break sequel is already enough to get me there day one.

I doubt QB sold well enough for them to want to continue with it.

 

[Zedox]

Of course it will. I'm curious about how you communicate that power advantage to the public to tell him "wait ! something's better is coming" (kinda remind me of the old N64 ads)

That's the very interesting thing on how MS approaches this. They need more than just more powerful hardware to sell to users. They have to build out more stuff in my opinion, but we'll see.

 

[MilkyJoe]

Shorter time between consoles, why is that a plus?! That is a minus in my book.
As for BC, Chris1 rightly points out that a new gen console with BC covers that, no need for an iterative version.
I think devs are less likely to take chances as it will be a moving platform. Whena game can take 3 years to make, who knows what machine will be out by then?

1) You are very young or immortal
2) Doesn't help the people on the previous gen
3) I am sure there will be more than ample conversation between manufacturers and developers. How do you think Launch games work?

 

[Lister]

I love how the stoy of iterating hardware that has been console gamer's #1 reason for never going PC, is now suddenly the best thing since sliced bread.

I mean, I agree... I just find it amusing that now everyone agrees too, you know, once consoles started doing it

This is the smartest move consoles have made in a very long time, as has been just about EVERY move they copied from PC gaming since the release of the Xbox.

 

[pastrami]

I think anyone expecting solid specs at E3 is crazy. We're talking about a console over a year from release. I doubt they have anything set in stone yet. We might get vague targets, but I doubt we'll see them come out and say, "Hey, next year, new Xbox, 6TF, HBM2, book it."

 

[nekkid]

I think they might be worried about it becoming a more viable platform for VR and aspects like that.

That said, Sony may just launch the Neo this year then announced a more powerful system for 2018. If revealed in 2017 and more powerful than the one, that would kill a lot of the buzz for the ONE-2. I imagine that might be the sensible route if they're planning incremental hardware upgrades.

I think that would be a quick way to piss off people who bought the Neo as the ultimate gaming machine, only to have it replaced ~2 years later.

 

[icespide]

I love how the stoy of iterating hardware that has been console gamer's #1 reason for never going PC, is now suddenly the best thing since sliced bread.

I mean, I agree... I just find it amusing that now everyone agrees too, you know, once consoles started doing it

This is the smartest move consoles have made in a very long time, as has been just about EVERY move they copied from PC gaming since the release of the Xbox.

where is everyone agreeing?

 

[Lister]

I think anyone expecting solid specs at E3 is crazy. We're talking about a console over a year from release. I doubt they have anything set in stone yet. We might get vague targets, but I doubt we'll see them come out and say, "Hey, next year, new Xbox, 6TF, HBM2, book it."

They might not release solid specs, but they have to be pretty much written in stone, if not now, soon, right?

You can't just make millions of consoles appear at a moment's notice.

 

[Lister]

where is everyone agreeing?

Who is this everyone? I don't know this fella.

In his head.

Well, ok, there are some dissenters. But they're crazy

 

[Jotaka]

I love how the stoy of iterating hardware that has been console gamer's #1 reason for never going PC, is now suddenly the best thing since sliced bread.

I mean, I agree... I just find it amusing that now everyone agrees too, you know, once consoles started doing it .

Who is this everyone? I don't know this fella.

 

[Milly Osworth]

where is everyone agreeing?

In his head.

 

[DagnastyEp]

The exact same thing can be achieved with Backwards Compatibility without there being shit ports, competitive disadvantages and games being held back for weaker hardware.

Honestly I'd rather full generations with BC than this nonsense

We've saw devs take more chances this gen at the start with a smaller install base than they did last gen near the end, so this doesn't make much sense.

The info about Scorpio available seems to indicate that MS is looking to go to a PC or mobile phone model with hardware *and* software. With a faster upgrade cycle for hardware, and software that works on various levels or hardware.

This is beneficial for developers because: they can submit one game that then works on multiple devices (and generations of devices). Rather than submitting a game once per platform it would be on. It would be much like iOS, and there would eventually be a point where the game would no longer be supported on certain older hardware, and it would likely be more up to the developer as to which platforms to support. One submission and update process could greatly simplify things for developers.

This is beneficial for gamers because: its about keeping your library with you. Instead of waiting and hoping for a game to be added to the BC list, all your games and saves will be there already and "just work" regardless of platform. The library goes from being tied to the console, to tied to you.

This is beneficial to MS because: this allows them to move much faster with hardware. The software is now decoupled from hardware. Moving to a new console would no longer mean moving to a new gaming library, and starting over. People develop attachments to their games, and not consoles. MS can have shorter console cycles, and people have the option to upgrade more often - which in turn results in more consoles sold. There could be some people who would upgrade every time, and others who hold off every few years as long as the same games still work. It also means that they don't have to worry as much about making a future proof console that sells at a loss; instead make a console that is powerful at that point in time and sells for a profit - in a few years that console is starting to look weak, but a new one is on the horizon to take it's place.

 

[Compsiox]

I think anyone expecting solid specs at E3 is crazy. We're talking about a console over a year from release. I doubt they have anything set in stone yet. We might get vague targets, but I doubt we'll see them come out and say, "Hey, next year, new Xbox, 6TF, HBM2, book it."

I'm expecting it by Fall. Eat me!

People seem to forget that we didn't know this gen console specs until like March and they came out in October/November