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[LukasTaves]

I'm still not seeing a compelling reason to put their games on Windows Store. They potentially pass up a lot of revenue by skipping Steam. I don't see the Windows Store being more lucrative than that. Hold up maybe I'm confused, but do you expect Microsoft to significantly charge less than Steam to put game on their PC digital store? i don't see how cross-buy would beneficial to EA or Ubisoft. They would rather sell multiple copies. Microsoft is the only company with any real incentive to offer console-PC cross-buy.

It's not just the win store, it's the win store + the xbox store, with cross buy. They have million of users buying their games on xbone already, many do physically. This would push them to buying digitally.

And their incentive to do so would be to gain more money, because they get less from a physical sale. And as you acknowledged, Ms has a huge interest in that too, so it also be in their interest in lower their taxes (for a limited time, or even ever) and sweet their deal even further

 

[...Scatter...]

Carrizio is their latest APU and they have two versions; Carrizio desktop using Excavator and Carrizio-L (low power) using Puma+. Sony and Microsoft could use either, 4 package pairs of Excavator or 8 Puma+ CPUs. Zen is SMT (each CPU has it's own accelerators) vs Excavator which is CMT where a pair of CPUs shares accelerators. Accelerators being packages like a FPU shared between two cores.

From what I read Puma is basically structurally like Jaguar but faster. Would be faster but not an architectural leap.

Have you guys seen this MS Holographic video. The future is cool as shit.

https://youtu.be/2MqGrF6JaOM

 

[Chobel]

It's not just the win store, it's the win store + the xbox store, with cross buy. They have million of users buying their games on xbone already, many do physically. This would push them to buying digitally.

Except if this actually takes off, the majority of PC gamers will start buying from W10 store instead of Origin, so less revenue for EA.

"This would push them to buying digitally." It wouldn't actually, console gamers don't give a flying fuck about PC.

 

[StrongBlackVine]

It's not just the win store, it's the win store + the xbox store, with cross buy. They have million of users buying their games on xbone already, many do physically. This would push them to buying digitally.

No it would not. Most Xbox One owners won't even be gaming on PC to take advantage of that. Better to buy retail and trade it in than be stuck with a digital copy most won't even use. Unless it will be for a code they can sell to actual PC gamer for cheap which will result in lost sales on PC side.

 

[icespide]

aren't UWP versions of games arguably inferior to regular PC versions? wouldn't high end PC gamers prefer those versions? for multiplats I mean

 

[StrongBlackVine]

aren't UWP versions of games arguably inferior to regular PC versions? wouldn't high end PC gamers prefer those versions? for multiplats I mean

So far it isn't arguable. There is a major gap in quality, flexibility and price. Wonder how Microsoft will address the games on Windows Store costing less than the same games on the Xbox Store...which will need to happen to be competitive.

 

[SenjutsuSage]

There's also possibility that for most people in the world console=Playstation and people won't be looking for alternatives unless the one they wanted is seriously hard pill to swallow.

So far Sony managed to win 3 out of 4 generations and still managed to salvage one where they started from trainwreck position.

Yea, I, and I think most people, are okay with that. I don't really mind who wins between the two, so long as they both continue to be successful enough to warrant their continued existence, with newer products still coming for years to come.

What you say is true, though. For many people in the world, I really do believe that console equals playstation, and nothing else. That said, I still think Microsoft's Xbox brand is such that they won't completely ignore what they're offering, even if they don't end up buying it. Sometimes the hard part is simply just to get people to take a look at what you have to offer, much less convincing them to buy once they do.

aren't UWP versions of games arguably inferior to regular PC versions? wouldn't high end PC gamers prefer those versions? for multiplats I mean

From what I see that's changing pretty quickly, with some requested features being added over the past few months or so.

 

[quickwhips]

Just launch as new console and kill the one.

 

[Totbjorn]

LOL no I'm not. There's currently ~60 million consoles sold, and ever increasing.

You really think there's anywhere close the same amount of PC gamers who own at least a medium spec gaming PC that's capable of running these games?

Come on, I mean this stuff is obvious. The majority of core gamers play on console, period. If they didn't all consoles would be in trouble.

Anyway this is all silly and way off topic.

Ignoring the fact that a lot of PC games actually runs pretty well on even the integrated intel GPUs today.

Here are som hard data on add in boards. It sets the sales of discreet graphics cards to ~10M/Quarter so about 40M a year.

Even the low end of these are comparable to or better than the console GPUs.
Some of these are used for other things than gaming but I would argue that the market for 3D accelerators are pretty small outside the gaming industry.

Contrary to popular belief most people also don't buy a new GPU every year and throw the old one away so I'd say the installed base is most likely on par or above the combined XB1 + PS4 base.

 

[jeff_rigby]

A thing to note, even if upcoming consoles get the Zen, it won't be the full desktop Zen that uses ~100W. It will be laptop/netbook variants that use way less power.

RE Power; Puma 4.5 W/core @ 28nm, Excalibur 20 W/core pair @ 28nm. @ 14nm there should be a 40% savings Plus efficiencies in the Puma+ and eExcavator versions.
8 Puma @ 14nm = 14.4Watts
4 Excavator core pairs @ 14nm = 32 watts

Polaris 10 has a 150 watt TDP @ the clock speeds it's running at. NEO is downclocked to allow for the CPU more than 40 watts. Down-clocking might be for other reasons like heat sink/case or GDDR5 memory speeds. Scorpio will probably use the CPU that Neo uses.

 

[Lister]

Ignoring the fact that a lot of PC games actually runs pretty well on even the integrated intel GPUs today.

Here are som hard data on add in boards. It sets the sales of discreet graphics cards to ~10M/Quarter so about 40M a year.

Even the low end of these are comparable to or better than the console GPUs.
Some of these are used for other things than gaming but I would argue that the market for 3D accelerators are pretty small outside the gaming industry.

Contrary to popular belief most people also don't buy a new GPU every year and throw the old one away so I'd say the installed base is most likely on par or above the combined XB1 + PS4 base.

Pretty sure that guy has shown to be immune to logic. I wouldn't bother if I were you.

 

[jeff_rigby]

From what I read Puma is basically structurally like Jaguar but faster. Would be neuter but not an architectural leap.

Have you guys seen this MS Holographic video. The future is cool as shit.

https://youtu.be/2MqGrF6JaOM

From 2014, Puma is primarily about power efficiencies not performance increases. It's predicted that the performance difference between Jaguar and Puma is related to the tighter Global Foundries 28nm process which the 2015 PS4 version uses.

I couldn't find any articles on comparing Puma with Jaguar other than the old 2014 article and a Wiki. All the following are node/Silicon differences in the design for the APU not the CPU..

Improvements over Jaguar
19% CPU core leakage reduction at 1.2V[11]
38% GPU leakage reduction
500 mW reduction in memory controller power
200 mW reduction in display interface power
Chassis temperature aware turbo boost[12]
Selective boosting according to application needs (intelligent boost)
Support for ARM TrustZone via integrated Cortex-A5 processor
Support for DDR3L-1866 memory[13]

 

[...Scatter...]

RE Power; Puma 4.5 W/core @ 28nm, Excalibur 20 W/core pair @ 28nm. @ 14nm there should be a 40% savings Plus efficiencies in the Puma+ and eExcavator versions.
8 Puma @ 14nm = 14.4Watts
4 Excavator core pairs @ 14nm = 32 watts

Polaris 10 has a 150 watt TDP @ the clock speeds it's running at. NEO is downclocked to allow for the CPU more than 40 watts. Down-clocking might be for other reasons like heat sink/case or GDDR5 memory speeds. Scorpio will probably use the CPU that Neo uses.

I don't think they'll use the same CPU and I'm not following how you came to this conclusion. Didn't we already hear rumblings that NEO is using higher clocked Jaguar cores. It's actually amazing that Jaguar did OK powering this generation (even if they doubled from 4 to 8 cores).

 

[jeff_rigby]

I don't think they'll use the same CPU and I'm not following how you came to this conclusion. Didn't we already hear rumblings that NEO is using higher clocked Jaguar cores. It's actually amazing that Jaguar did OK powering this generation (even if they doubled from 4 to 8 cores).

It's rumored Sony stated they had not made up their mind RE Jaguar or a more powerful CPU at more money. OsirusBlack is stating the CPU choice is like the 4GB to 8 GB decision. It's already made but likely will be the higher.

It won't be Jaguar in any case, it will be Puma or Excavator as each has the built in multiple power saving features including AMD Start Now Technology[/URL.] with the proper Southbridge design. Vega will have it, Carrizio-L APUs will have it and I think the Laptop version too.

 

[...Scatter...]

It's rumored Sony stated they had not made up their mind RE Jaguar or a more powerful CPU at more money. OsirusBlack is stating the CPU choice is like the 4GB to 8 GB decision. It's already made but likely will be the higher.

It won't be Jaguar in any case, it will be Puma or Excavator as each has the built in multiple power saving features including AMD Start Now Technology[/URL.]

Jaguar would be dumb for Sony. Glad they're going to increase it.

 

[cakely]

Is it just me or is the thread full of .. But i want xbox to fail because i like playstation better posters?

Is it just me or is this thread full of new members who have half their total post counts in this thread alone?

 

[Long Division]

aren't UWP versions of games arguably inferior to regular PC versions? wouldn't high end PC gamers prefer those versions? for multiplats I mean

Yep, they are improving but still not sure why anyone would choose UWP versions over regular.

 

[LukasTaves]

Except if this actually takes off, the majority of PC gamers will start buying from W10 store instead of Origin, so less revenue for EA.

Yeah, but since retail sales >>>>>>>>>>> origin/uplay sales they would make tons more revenue if they manage to get people buying on retail to buy digitally.

"This would push them to buying digitally." It wouldn't actually, console gamers don't give a flying fuck about PC.

Even if they don't game on Pc, there's no denying the appeal of buy once play everywhere holds. Specially if this everywhere encompasses a huge amount of devices in different price points and formats (which is precisely what Ms is rumored to be doing).

 

[icespide]

Yep, they are improving but still not sure why anyone would choose UWP versions over regular.

what if I told you if you bought the UWP version you could also play it on your Xbox with worse graphics?

 

[...Scatter...]

what if I told you if you bought the UWP version you could also play it on your Xbox with worse graphics?

I'd say it depends on your build.

 

[Long Division]

what if I told you if you bought the UWP version you could also play it on your Xbox with worse graphics?

Lol good point.

I'd say it depends on your build.

I somehow doubt many people buying AAA games from UWP have a weaker machine than the one.

 

[Night Angel]

what if I told you if you bought the UWP version you could also play it on your Xbox with worse graphics?

And what if you could also be safe from keyloggers and other malicious hacks that are guaranteed to pop up if you modded your game? Thank god for UWP.

 

[LukasTaves]

aren't UWP versions of games arguably inferior to regular PC versions? wouldn't high end PC gamers prefer those versions? for multiplats I mean

Less customizable? Yeah. Inferior? Depends on what you value, there's only one title that is available both as a uwp and on steam (Rise of Tomb Raider) and the uwp performed better.

 

[crab rangoon]

The UWP converter tool isn't perfect like that.

It's just packaging the code. It isn't some nuanced, full scale automating port. You sound like you are assuming it is doing something way more complex than it really is.

What stops you? The developer. The developer choose how to sell their software. They can have cross-buy among phone and Xbox but not PC. It is flexible that way.

If there is only 1 marketplace the publisher has no choice to make. There is only one UWA version.

 

[Long Division]

Less customizable? Yeah. Inferior? Depends on what you value, there's only one title that is available both as a uwp and on steam (Rise of Tomb Raider) and the uwp performed better.

What? It was shown that DX11 the steam version performs better and the DX12 versions were about the same.

 

[...Scatter...]

Lol good point.



I somehow doubt many people buying AAA games from UWP have a weaker machine than the one.

True. But what's the title of this thread? New XBOX.

 

[Long Division]

True. But what's the title of this thread? New XBOX.

Uh yes? I'm just replying to a post about UWP games.

 

[Zedox]

Might as well not think of the "Xbox Store" and the "Windows Store" as separate thing cuz next month they will be the "Windows Store"...no such separation.

EA/Ubisoft have enough money to not sell PC versions of their UWAs. The reason why I said of their "UWA" is because soon (probably by the beginning of the year) all apps that are on the Xbox One will be UWAs (besides legacy apps) and come through the Windows Store. So when you, as a developer, make a UWA and put in information about your app in the Store, there are device selections there. EA can easily not check Desktop. Then on their Origin store, sell the UWA that's the desktop version of the app. It's really that simple.

Microsoft would love to have EA/Ubisoft sell their desktop games on the Windows Store but I don't think they are going to lose sleep over it. What UWP is going to provide is havin games that aren't normally on Windows, be on Windows. So let's say Madden, with some effort, EA could release madden on pc. That's just better for PC gamers as a whole. I wish for that to happen but we'll see. Now MS could (and they do) try to incentivize EA/Ubisoft to use the Windows Store with one good point...support. Support of servers of their software, distribution, management, localization and such for their digital games. The same as Steam. With the Windows Store though, it does it for both Xbox and PC at the same time. Support does cost money.

The only other way I could see EA/Ubisoft use those stores for PC is if they put out a game that's both on their store and on the Windows store and see how it performs. Not a heavy hitter but a smaller one. They could see the returns of each game and see if that's the way that they want to sell their merchandise and consolidate their stuff. I still see them having their own UWAs for their stores but that still won't be for a while until less people use Windows 7 and more use Windows 10.

 

[Chobel]

Yeah, but since retail sales >>>>>>>>>>> origin/uplay sales they would make tons more revenue if they manage to get people buying on retail to buy digitally.

I'm gonna need a source for that. We're talking here about XB1 sales only vs origin/uplay sales, and last I saw Ubisoft had more revenue on PC than XB1. And even if you have such source (for EA), how much do you think this crossbuy stuff is gonna change the habits of physical disk buyers?

Even if they don't game on Pc, there's no denying the appeal of buy once play everywhere holds. Specially if this everywhere encompasses a huge amount of devices in different price points and formats (which is precisely what Ms is rumored to be doing).

If they're not gonna play it on any another device (like the majority of console gamers), where's the appeal you're talking about here? Most people will figure out this "you can play it somewhere else" means nothing to them. There one appeal I could see here which is if people sell these extra PC codes. But true crossbuy means no extra code, and if there's an extra code you just created a problem that doesn't exist on PC: second hand sales.

 

[Zedox]

It's just packaging the code. It isn't some nuanced, full scale automating port. You sound like you are assuming it is doing something way more complex than it really is.



If there is only 1 marketplace the publisher has no choice to make. There is only one UWA version.

1. It still depends on the code, not everything will come out cleanly from the converter tool.
2. The publisher has a choice on which platforms that they can sell their UWA. You need to look at the developer portal (as I have). You can choose PC, Xbox, Surface, Mobile, HoloLens, etc...with the one UWA. You can build differently as well with multiple instances of a UWA for the different platforms if you choose and submit that to the store if you wanted. Each one of those platforms you can choose how much you want to charge, you can choose if it is cross-buy or not. The publisher has many options to their disposal. I'm not coming as a person who is thinking of "if", I'm coming from a person who has looked at this stuff as a developer.

 

[infiniteheteroskdasticity]

My $0.02 is that a 5.5+ TFLOP 14nm APU is doable in late 2017 at console TDP and cost constraints. My guess is that the hardware is only vaguely finalized (likely Vega mid tier GPU + Zen + HBM) but that they'll only commit to it once they can get a solid idea on what Sony's doing. Sony have to launch this holiday season so their room to bump up the specs is extremely limited. I'd say better CPU cores, small upclocks and slightly faster GDDR5x memory is about the most they can do - memory bandwith will be the constraint because you won't be able to feed the APU quickly enough on a 256 bit bus.

I'd be willing to put money on Xbox being just more powerful enough to have undisputed bragging rights (just as Sony did this gen) but no so powerful they sell the hardware at a loss. 1+ years of extra development time, new architectures and HBM availability should give them the ability to hit those goals. The only risk to this approach is if AMD, the fabs and the memory suppliers aren't able to deliver what would be cutting edge components on time or on budget, the schedule could easily slip well into 2018. With a 2 year head start, the PS4.5 will be un catchable.

 

[Bitch Pudding]

Y
Even if they don't game on Pc, there's no denying the appeal of buy once play everywhere holds. Specially if this everywhere encompasses a huge amount of devices in different price points and formats (which is precisely what Ms is rumored to be doing).

Doesn't this imply that every XBOX game runs on every XBOX platform (e.g. PC, Slim, Vanilla XBOX One, Scorpio)?
And if that's the case, wouldn't this jeopardize the idea of Scorpio (and perhaps PC) exclusive games?
Because if that's the case, Scorpio doesn't qualify as a "new generation" console. (We talked earlier about the main difference between a beefed up SKU (Neo) and a new gen and some of use think it'sfirst of all exclusive games).

 

[I Reclaim3mer 117]

Doesn't this imply that every XBOX game runs on every XBOX platform (e.g. PC, Slim, Vanilla XBOX One, Scorpio)?
And if that's the case, wouldn't this jeopardize the idea of Scorpio (and perhaps PC) exclusive games?
Because if that's the case, Scorpio doesn't qualify as a "new generation" console. (We talked earlier about the main difference between a beefed up SKU (Neo) and a new gen and some of use think it'sfirst of all exclusive games).

How when you'll be playing the best console version on Scorpio?

 

[Zedox]

Doesn't this imply that every XBOX game runs on every XBOX platform (e.g. PC, Slim, Vanilla XBOX One, Scorpio)?
And if that's the case, wouldn't this jeopardize the idea of Scorpio (and perhaps PC) exclusive games?
Because if that's the case, Scorpio doesn't qualify as a "new generation" console. (We talked earlier about the main difference between a beefed up SKU (Neo) and a new gen and some of use think it'sfirst of all exclusive games).

No, there won't be "exclusive games" to a console anymore. Who cares if it is "qualified" as a new generation or not? You buy the system because of the software and what the system can do with the software, period. Eventually, there will be "exclusive" games but it won't be because it's a new system, it will be because the game can only run on that system because of its requirements. That comes with time. Exclusives from now on will be by the platform holder, no longer primarily by the system.

EDIT: You won't have "Xbox One Exclusive"...you will hear "Xbox Exclusive" or "Xbox Live Exclusive".

 

[Bitch Pudding]

How when you'll be playing the best console version on Scorpio?

You'll also be able to play the best version of a PS exclusive on PS4 Neo, yet I asume no one thinks it's a new console generation because of that.

 

[...Scatter...]

Doesn't this imply that every XBOX game runs on every XBOX platform (e.g. PC, Slim, Vanilla XBOX One, Scorpio)?
And if that's the case, wouldn't this jeopardize the idea of Scorpio (and perhaps PC) exclusive games?
Because if that's the case, Scorpio doesn't qualify as a "new generation" console. (We talked earlier about the main difference between a beefed up SKU (Neo) and a new gen and some of use think it'sfirst of all exclusive games).

There are no more true generations. It's going to work like PC.

 

[gatti-man]

Doesn't this imply that every XBOX game runs on every XBOX platform (e.g. PC, Slim, Vanilla XBOX One, Scorpio)?
And if that's the case, wouldn't this jeopardize the idea of Scorpio (and perhaps PC) exclusive games?
Because if that's the case, Scorpio doesn't qualify as a "new generation" console. (We talked earlier about the main difference between a beefed up SKU (Neo) and a new gen and some of use think it'sfirst of all exclusive games).

Any game can run on any hardware. Just be ready for the base console to have a shitty looking experience for a game designed for Scorpio. This overall is a good thing though. As console bases can stay really large and we don't get that first year next gen drought where no games come out for the next gen console.

I think gradual upgrades are best moving forward or even a socketed PC like approach but I'm very hardware hardcore so what do I know.

What I do know is Scorpio is going to have to bring the fire to get me back after Xbox one. Biggest waste of money day 1ing that console of my entire gaming life. As is I'm PC/PlayStation with a side of Nintendo.

 

[DuckSlayer]

My $0.02 is that a 5.5+ TFLOP 14nm APU is doable in late 2017 at console TDP and cost constraints. My guess is that the hardware is only vaguely finalized (likely Vega mid tier GPU + Zen + HBM) but that they'll only commit to it once they can get a solid idea on what Sony's doing. Sony have to launch this holiday season so their room to bump up the specs is extremely limited. I'd say better CPU cores, small upclocks and slightly faster GDDR5x memory is about the most they can do...

I'd be willing to put money on Xbox being just more powerful enough to have undisputed bragging rights (just as Sony did this gen) but no so powerful they sell the hardware at a loss. 1+ years of extra development time, new architectures and HBM availability should give them the ability to hit those goals. The only risk to this approach is if AMD, the fabs and the memory suppliers aren't able to deliver what would be cutting edge components on time or on budget, the schedule could easily slip well into 2018. With a 2 year head start, the PS4.5 will be un catchable.

Congrats for staying on topic having the balls to make a prediction and justify why!

Resons to buy Scorpio..
A) you want a more power xbox thats noticbly better than the current one ( unlike ps4->neo)
B) you have an xbox and want vr / you want to get an occulus to use on pc as well
C) you own a ps4 and miss your friends on xbox

Reasons to buy neo
A) you want to get ps vr and think u nees to upgrade as current ps is too underpowered
B) your happy to pay $400 to change the iq in a small amount of unreleased games

 

[Night Angel]

What a comprehensive and unbiased list of reasons to purchase these rumored boxes! Thanks Duck!

 

[Bsigg12]

You'll also be able to play the best version of a PS exclusive on PS4 Neo, yet I asume no one thinks it's a new console generation because of that.

I'm sure there will be people who do think that.

 

[Bitch Pudding]

There are no more true generations. It's going to work like PC.

Yeah, and now think of all the implications which come along with that idea: No exclusive Scorpio games means cross buy. Which is really cool. But it also means every game you buy must also run on vanilla XBOX One. And if that's the case, Scorpio is the very same as PS4 Neo (and then it's pointless to talk about 0.5 or big numbers).

 

[icespide]

What a comprehensive and unbiased list of reasons to purchase these rumored boxes! Thanks Duck!

haha I was like "dafuq am I reading??" and then noticed who wrote it

 

[DuckSlayer]

haha I was like "dafuq am I reading??" and then noticed who wrote it

And why do you think playstation users will bother to upgrade to a ps4.5?

If they want graphics theyll buy a new gpu for the pc right?

 

[Bsigg12]

Yeah, and now think of all the implications which come along with that idea: No exclusive Scorpio games means cross buy. Which is really cool. But it also means every game you buy must also run on vanilla XBOX One. And if that's the case, Scorpio is the very same as PS4 Neo.

It'll depend on restrictions and features Microsoft has in place for it. Obviously there will be the mandate that it must run on the original Xbox One but will they limit it to just running or looking better like Sony is with the Neo? Will devs be able to really go nuts with whatever is they want to do with the Scorpio specific build and make the experience for the game better?

 

[nekkid]

haha I was like "dafuq am I reading??" and then noticed who wrote it

I got choked up hearing the story of the guy who plays his PS4 alone because all his friends play on XB1. The feels.

 

[get2sammyb]

I'll probably get roasted for this, but I can't help but think that "UWP" is the latest in a long line of Xbox buzz phrases that gets prematurely latched onto by fans. I certainly see what Microsoft's trying to do with it, but I'm not quite sure it's going to pan out quite as perfectly as posters in this thread anticipate.

Again, we'll see. Interesting™ times ahead.

 

[Bits N Pieces]

Yeah, and now think of all the implications which come along with that idea: No exclusive Scorpio games means cross buy. Which is really cool. But it also means every game you buy must also run on vanilla XBOX One. And if that's the case, Scorpio is the very same as PS4 Neo (and then it's pointless to talk about 0.5 or big numbers).

Then 900p to 1080p is also pointless?

 

[Hoo-doo]

And why do you think playstation users will bother to upgrade to a ps4.5?

If they want graphics theyll buy a new gpu for the pc right?

For someone who was repeatedly calling out the console wars in an earlier page, you sure seem to love stirring the pot by adding an inflammatory Sony/Playstation comparison in nearly every post.

 

[Bitch Pudding]

Will devs be able to really go nuts with whatever is they want to do with the Scorpio specific build and make the experience for the game better?

This is indeed interesting, I am curious if MS will place the same restrictions on developers like Sony does.

Then again, unless Scorpio takes off like a rocket, why would (3rd party) developers be bothered to make Scorpio mode of a game considerably better looking than the Neo mode? Which is basically already limited to framerate, AA and resolution enhancements.

 

[gatti-man]

Congrats for staying on topic having the balls to make a prediction and justify why!

Resons to buy Scorpio..
A) you want a more power xbox thats noticbly better than the current one ( unlike ps4->neo)
B) you have an xbox and want vr / you want to get an occulus to use on pc as well
C) you own a ps4 and miss your friends on xbox

Reasons to buy neo
A) you want to get ps vr and think u nees to upgrade as current ps is too underpowered
B) your happy to pay $400 to change the iq in a small amount of unreleased games

Your neo stuff is all conjecture. A 2x power increase is pretty large in my book and what if it's a IQ boost in every future game that releases? Even if it's just free frames would it would be worth it to me honestly. But let's not act like neo won't be a big thing because it will be eventually.