UWP is a Microsoft thing as a whole. It's essentially their new container that they want to replace WIN32 with eventually. It relates to Xbox in the idea that it is supposed to aid in maintaining compatibility across platforms as new hardware comes out as well as allow them to unify their stores to make those more cohesive. It's going to be a few years before they get to something that is mostly acceptable for PC users since they are still locked down in a kinda shitty way.
Polygon: Xbox Scorpio will be a ~6 TFLOP system (v PS4K's 4.14), unveil soon, Fall 17
- Thread starter BUNTING1243
- Start date
UWP is a Microsoft thing as a whole. It's essentially their new container that they want to replace WIN32 with eventually. It relates to Xbox in the idea that it is supposed to aid in maintaining compatibility across platforms as new hardware comes out as well as allow them to unify their stores to make those more cohesive. It's going to be a few years before they get to something that is mostly acceptable for PC users since they are still locked down in a kinda shitty way.
DuckSlayer
Banned
I just ask the questions your too afraid to answer
if you actually read neogaf like i do thats one of the main reasons that people buy a particular console. Its awesome that i can play 360 on xbox one as some of my friends are still on last gen. ( note actually have real life friends and prefer playing with them to randoms) .. Other friends have ps4 and pc and of course play on pc so im hoping cross play becomes a reality with uwp.
Freeman
Banned
Good points, didn't know about the mouse and keyboard support, that evens the playing field.
Its all about how good that hardware proposition will be then. Steam Machine proposition was shit, if MS makes a decent proposition I could see it working for them. How will they be willing to get to PCs? Would they go as far as not charging for multiplayer and allowing other storefronts? What would be stopping another company to make a very similar machine running windows but without those two limitations? Also at this point what is the advantage of MS being in the hardware business instead of delegating it to partners?
I think their best bet is to transition into a Steam Machine like model (fixing what Steam Machines did wrong).
My scenario was when someone was about to chose between a Xbox and other device (including PCs/Console like PCs). Why wouldn't some at least consider a similar product? What would be the differentiation factor that would make the Xbox so appealing in comparison?
MilkyJoe
Member
Pot, meet kettle.
Bitch Pudding
Member
That's not my point. I am curious how MS is going to promote Scorpio. From my point of view, it's a tougher job to promote a more powerful SKU than a new generation, because almost everybody gets the "it has exclusive games!" part, while indeed not everybody will be bothered by the resolution enhancements, especially those without a 4k screen. Sony is going to face the same problems, of course.
DuckSlayer
Banned
All conjecture? Lol its a rumour thread and digital foundry and yourself agree its likely only 2xgpu of current console. If its worth upgrading to 4 tf then its even more worth buying a scorpio for 6tf .. Esp if u currently own an xbox wait wasnt THAT my first point? so you agree with me?
I think this may be the largest differentiator between the Neo and the Scorpio. I don't see Microsoft forcing the feature parity for the Scorpio build because it could be something where those builds suddenly become the showcase with the biggest, most impressive things happening while the other version are then turned down from that. Microsoft absolutely has to have tools in place though to really help the development side though. it's not like they can just say "hey, this is some awesome new hardware build awesome stuff oh and don't forget about the Xbox one." They need to make building for both as easy as possible while giving devs the ability to really do incredible things with the new hardware otherwise what's the point? As always, this is only speculation.
I just ask the questions your too afraid to answer
I like the not-so-subtle implication here that the rest of us here don't actually read NeoGAF or have real life friends.
nekkid
It doesn't matter who we are, what matters is our plan.
I just ask the questions your too afraid to answer
Beogaf is a great insult!
I chose to ignore the stealth edit ;-)
UWP is not a gimmick or a buzzword, it's something that is already out there working right now.
They simply need to promote it as a more powerful(most powerful) console that will play all the games you already own on Xbox One and games on Xbox 360.
infiniteheteroskdasticity
Member
That's honestly the most interesting thing about the (rumored) transition coming up and frankly a double edged sword for Xbox. PS4 to Neo is a nice upgrade (assuming the Neo is somewhere around 4.5 TF) but not really a generational leap. Its easy to say that most Neo games will be able to run in some form (def not VR) on launch PS4s. This will help Sony hold on to its PS4 user base and grow it substantially in the 1+ years they will have on the market without an Xbox alternative. It will also help PSVR become the de facto standard for console VR gaming and ensure that the experience is completely acceptable for the first iteration of a new technology. With Xbox, the jump is nearly a full generational leap at current specs, greater actually than 360 to Xbox One. There is little to no chance that the Xbox One is forwards compatible with Scorpio titles. Microsoft's target market is push Xbox One upgrades (perhaps through a creative trade in scheme) and hardcore gamers who would look at a PC instead. Its a risky bet and I know I'd rather be Sony right now.
Well 2x GPU is actually a damn good upgrade in these times. And ps4 was already Easilymore powerful than xbone. So now the difference will be slight tick for the xbone.
If xbone gets good VR support and supports PC VR hardware that could be a reason to buy but I see neo as a much stronger buy given the software coming out. I just don't see console VR taking off. I do see gamers paying for better graphics and more frames though, much more than I see console gamers paying for VR.
Any game can run on the xbone. It will just have to be stripped down graphically. Smoke, shadows, tesselation all gone with lower poly models and maybe lower res textures done deal. It's really not that big of a deal.
CyberMiguel
Banned
Exactly. PS4K (or Neo) will be a niche product, just like Xbox Scorpio if they only exploit the "ehrmageerd!! 4k graphics!!", since 4K TVs are a niche product (compared to 720p or 1080p TVs).
Heck, we're barely getting movies and Tv shows in 1080i resolution and they're already pushing 4k with virtually almost no content that uses that resolution (I think there are no TV channels nor blu-ray discs that go that high).
Both Sony and Microsoft have to play their cards really, REALLY well to get current and new customers interested in 4k gaming, otherwise it will be a failure from the start (for both platforms).
DuckSlayer
Banned
Lol ? Did i actually imply that?
And yes my typing is crap thanks for pointing that out fellow beogaffers!!
Bits N Pieces
Member
When you said
The first thing that came into my mind was the PS4's hardware advantage that gives it a superior resolution and overall performance for many games. There has been quite a few threads on this and every forum out there discussing these very same details that result in the differences in those games.
The same thing will happen again with Neo, Scorpio and whatever comes next, however frequent that might be.
There is no more generations, we'll have platforms and eco systems on ever evolving hardware from here on out.
People want to draw on examples of the iPhone for showing what consoles are going to become.
Well guess what, a huge part of the phone market are flagship devices which are niche. In fact in the phone market it's the lower spec devices that sell the most and make the most money but flagship devices are a large part in selling them.
It's like when car companies like Ford sell the GT350, it's a very tiny part of the sales but it's image pushes the brand and helps sell Mustang GTs.
Actually now that I think about it. If Scorpio comes out with a VR version of forza with proper tracks and vehicles not a slimmed down version I would buy in just for that. VR racing is amazing.
Which is why upgrades create the flagship model while the old spec yet still current console will be the budget phone so to speak. The phone thing is a bad argument though since no one is saying buy a new console every year or two years. It will be a 3-4 year upgrade cycle. That's way beyond most people's phones.
Which is why upgrades create the flagship model while the old spec yet still current console will be the budget phone so to speak. The phone thing is a bad argument though since no one is saying buy a new console every year or two years. It will be a 3-4 year upgrade cycle. That's way beyond most people's phones.
DuckSlayer
Banned
A slight tick for xbox if you already own a neo a big tick if u own a ps4 and a huge tick if u own an xbox. So more people have more reason to upgrade from xbox to scorpio which was specifically the first point i made. If vr for console dosent take off then occulus will sell more than ps vr and become the standard and will be supported by xbox so thats in ms favour not playstations...
Thankfully with their focus on forzavista for every car... that isn't impossible.
All the cars have completely modeled interiors which would allow for proper VR.
Sure but the point still stands that flagship devices can actually improve the brand image and help sell lower spec versions of the console.
rokkerkory
Member
I am so itching for this huge uptick from X1, especially since it'll run all X1 (perhaps all 360) games much better too.
Since I don't have PS4 yet, Neo will be so nice to pick up as well. Imagining Horizon or UC4 on it.
Since I don't have PS4 yet, Neo will be so nice to pick up as well. Imagining Horizon or UC4 on it.
A current ps4 owner would be more likely to buy a neo and sell his old ps4 than leave his friends list and move to Scorpio. And buying a completely new console is a much larger expense if you are keeping your old console. That doesn't even factor in losing all your save states in games like overwatch and destiny that require significant time investments.
infiniteheteroskdasticity
Member
Doubtful. The Neo is basically identical to the PS4 architecturally with faster components so its easy to scale games to run on both. The Scorpio will likely have a completely different memory architecture than the One - there's no way you're using ESRAM + DDR4 to feed a 6TF APU and getting a 5.5-6TF APU on the same die as the required amount of ESRAM would pretty much lead to the largest, most expensive and worst thought out APU in history. To get to their targeted performance on a 14nm node in 2017/18 they're going to have to go the PS4 route with a unified memory pool on GDDR5x or HBM. This means a lot of extra work scaling down games designed to actually use all the extra power on the Scorpio for the Xbox One. Its not impossible but it will cost enough in terms of time and money it might as well be its own version. You'd see devs develop one version (scaled differently) for PS4, Neo and Scorpio and then have to port that to run on Xbox One and its split memory pools. That's not realistic.
Bitch Pudding
Member
I am so itching for this huge uptick from X1, especially since it'll run all X1 (perhaps all 360) games much better too.
Since I don't have PS4 yet, Neo will be so nice to pick up as well. Imagining Horizon or UC4 on it.
I am playing UC4 right now, and it makes me think that I don't need a PS4 Neo unless I buy myself a 4k TV. Getting a PSVR (day 1) might change that perception, though.
rokkerkory
Member
Yeah I would see why if you already have a PS4, neo might not be worth it. But I don't have one yet so only choice to get is the best PS.
I agree with your post which is why I said the game will be ugly bc the port will be quick and dirty would be my guess.
DuckSlayer
Banned
So far as i predicted most ps users are .. Cbf upgrading.. Will do to power my vr .. Will do just because i want higher frame rates.
Most xbox responses have been i would love a better xbox and id love to play vr on xbox .. And one user agreed with the idea ill stay where my friends are ( that applies for ps or xbox users)
NullPointer
Member
Similarly, as I already do most of my gaming on the PS4 I'm more interested in the idea of a Scorpio than a Neo, because that would change things up the most.Yeah I would see why if you already have a PS4, neo might not be worth it. But I don't have one yet so only choice to get is the best PS.
If the platform holders are going the iterative hardware route to increase customer loyalty and lock-in, they might be missing something.
LukasTaves
Member
No, I'm talking about total retail sales against total digital sales. The first is still higher for them.
What I'm arguing is that by supporting a digital platform that encompasses many platforms that might:
- Get multiple console owners to buy on that platform
- Get more people to buy digital vs retail.
Do you have a source for saying that the majority of console gamers only play on consoles?
Also, another device don't need to be a phone, a tablet, a laptop (though the case makes itself for having your library on the go) or a pc, it might be a very low end console that's cheap enough for you to buy for other rooms in your house or perhaps even a stick that stream games from another console/pc or even the cloud.
And even that there's now the certainty that another xbone situation is not going to happen. If Ms screws up and make another underpowered console again you can still enjoy your games with the maximul possible quality while still being connected to your friends.
Obviously it all depends on what Ms is going to do, but it's silly to deny the potential of the platform.
You're predicting market acceptance and consumer uptake based on cherry picked forum posts? If you'd actually post in other threads beside this one you'd find tons of different opinions that cover the entire spectrum concerning both Neo and Scorpio.
SicSemperTyrannis
Member
I think that moving to this type of structure is a viable option for them, but I don't know what benefits they would provide to the actual hardware manufacturers. Just as an example, why would Samsung agree to make Xbox branded hardware to play all of this cross/backwards/forwards compatible software if they don't get an incentive on software sales? I doubt Microsoft would be willing to offer a percentage of their software profits and giving kickbacks on hardware sales would defeat the purpose of leaving the hardware game to begin with. Not to mention the hardware/devices team at Microsoft is incredibly well suited to the task of crafting new dedicated gaming platforms, so maybe we will see a mix of both in the future akin to their foray in mobile phones (which has not gone well) or their surface as a hardware example to OEM's.
infiniteheteroskdasticity
Member
Yeah, my point was that might only mean Xbox One ports for a year or so. There's no way it will continue to get ports after a transition period. That's more like a generational transition. In contrast I'd expect the PS4 to continue to run non VR Neo games (worse and worse) throughout its life.
DuckSlayer
Banned
From what i hear doom wasnt cracked yet ..
500,000 sold on pc ( this is so a best case ever for pc as most things are cracked)
Prob 700,000 sold on xbox
Prob 1,000,000 sold on ps
Thats why console matters more than pc for aaa titles. $$ ( thats also why ms is supporting xbox because it sells more than pc)
500,000 sold on pc ( this is so a best case ever for pc as most things are cracked)
Prob 700,000 sold on xbox
Prob 1,000,000 sold on ps
Thats why console matters more than pc for aaa titles. $$ ( thats also why ms is supporting xbox because it sells more than pc)
anything else you'd like to pull out of your ass? anything left in there?
DuckSlayer
Banned
Does it piss you off people agree with me?
Do you have any better suggestions than what i made because id like to hear them.. Why do you think people will upgrade?
but what was the digital split for consoles? prob like 90% right?
UWP goes beyond just gaming. It's not going to be perfect (and wasn't perfect when it was first released during the Windows 8 era) but the potential for it do what MS plans out for it to do is very much in reach. Also, it's not even a buzzword as it is basically what Win32 is...but "modern".
Basically this.
I don't think that Microsoft needs to "force" feature parity for Scorpio. The simple fact is that developers go for the majority of users (until a new 'generation' arrives). They aren't going to leave 20 million on the table. Just as they won't leave 40 million on the table. Neo and Scorpio most likely will market themselves as "4K' and "VR Ready" devices. That's the easiest (at least to start off) way to market those devices and get them to sell. Yes, those are niche markets but it's additive. "Buy this now and you'll be ready for the future".
Can't wait to play UC4 my back log is long right now lol. Results are only as good as your source. Fuck a fanboy cause I like games.
The reason why I bought the original XBOX twice the 2nd time in Crystal Green were the games. Halo, New Legends, and Fable.
I bought an Xbox 360 for Halo: Reach and Enslaved.
I love playstation and always will. PS ONE was my official entry into gaming and I never looked back. Tenchu, FF7, Jet Moto, Jumping Slash, and MvC.
I don't care about flops, flip flops, or chanclas.
If these next consoles fail where it counts most (games) who cares how powerful they are. With all the nonsense I see flying in here I'd say let's start a Kickstarter and let Gaf create a console!
Yeah that isn't true.
DuckSlayer
Banned
Online games arent cracked which is most aaa games and i should have said i ment best case as per ratio ( not total sales). Obviously fallout etc outsold doom.
I would be suprised if doom on pc outsold ps wouldnt you? Other than starcraft etc generally ps community is biggest followed by xbox and pc being similar. Either way steams 150 million users translates into LESS sales for aaa titles on pc.
This is where things (my personal opinion) get interesting with UWP. UWP isn't only games, we're going to have other types of apps in the Windows Store that could be for anything (up to devs). Those devs most likely will be charging for stuff and give cool apps. Taking the money out of the picture, PlayStation won't have that type of reach (i'm not getting into console wars mind you, just discussing) as they don't have that type of platform for "anybody" to make an app for the PlayStation. They will have "gaming lockin" but they won't have "gaming + app lockin". Obviously that is all dependent on devs making compelling apps for the television but I believe PlayStation and Xbox have the most potential to change the way we use TVs moreso than other companies (yes, even Apple TV, and Rokus). I just see MS having that "real" opportunity first with UWP on Xbox One.
#E32016IsGonnaBeInteresting
Interficium
Banned
You need to stop doubling down. On everything.
Freeman
Banned
Other manufactures could include their store fronts, but I guess it would be a mess. Not as easy to pull off as I was thinking.
This is pretty interesting.
On the last Windows Weekly they said that Microsoft said that 3rd parties will be taking advantage of their Windows holographic platform within months....
Would it be much of a stretch that Xbox Scorpio could be running Windows Holographic onto Oculus VR?
On the last Windows Weekly they said that Microsoft said that 3rd parties will be taking advantage of their Windows holographic platform within months....
Would it be much of a stretch that Xbox Scorpio could be running Windows Holographic onto Oculus VR?
SenjutsuSage
Banned
Most important thing for Scorpio is that it plays all Xbox One games. And, thinking about it some more, perhaps devs won't even necessarily have to build a title specifically for Scorpio most of the time. They should be able to, say, build specifically for Xbox One, and upon detection of the more powerful Scorpio (Microsoft will likely have these kinds of tools in place) devs can then set certain parameters of their game to be significantly enhanced.
Improved shadows
Improved effects
Improved lighting
Increased textures + texture filtering
Better AA
Res boost
etc, etc...
Essentially, the xbox one version of the game will also be the Scorpio version. At least in the early going till devs decide to move on from Xbox One altogether and code specifically to Scorpio's strengths.
Improved shadows
Improved effects
Improved lighting
Increased textures + texture filtering
Better AA
Res boost
etc, etc...
Essentially, the xbox one version of the game will also be the Scorpio version. At least in the early going till devs decide to move on from Xbox One altogether and code specifically to Scorpio's strengths.
LukasTaves
Member
It's all speculation, but I have a strong belief that past this e3 xbox live won't be needed for mp gaming on xbox either, they will probably announce more "free stuff" with your sub that could entice xbox to keep their subs and pc gamers to subscribe. They could offer some Pc games, a movie rental or two every month... There's plenty they can do to keep the value of the sub if they are willing to do that of course.
As for 3rd parties, it was once in their goal (the leaked roadmap from 2010 talked about iterative hardware and licesing to OEMS), they haven't talked/leaked about since, but even if they don't directly license from the looks of it they just don't care, or maybe will even incentive their partners to do on their own. They are even adding full support for controller on windows so you can both control apps using a controller, along rumors of a "big picture mode". When they reach that point anyone with a desktop could have a console like experience. And perhaps Ms could even get some deals to OEMs if they make said consoles/pcs tied only to the win store as opposed of having full blown windows.
Edit: it also would benefit Ms tremendously to have OEMs creating successful xbox boxes, and the digital platform taking of. If they don't depend on traditional retail to sell hardware (like Gamestop) they could drop the price parity for digital games, and the retailers wouldn't be able to retaliate like they can now.
LukasTaves
Member
The uwp on xbone will still be incomplete in the Redstone 1 update (but said to be fully supported on the Redstone 2, which is why probably Scorpio won't come until spring 2017), it doesn't support the file picker yet for instance, but as an example, the guys that made Torrex (torrent client) said they are bringing it to xbone. If that kind of app is allowed then I guess pretty much everything that's currently on the store will too, which makes this VERY interesting.
DuckSlayer
Banned
Bittorrent on xbox?? Omfg haha
Shpeshal Nick
aka Collingwood
If they get the Scorpio in at $399 and call it the Xbox One Pro and have the Slim at $299 and call it the Xbox One S I don't think they need to necessarily market the resolution increases.
Pro is a moniker that clearly indicates a "step up" and something that is intended for the enthusiast audience. The price gap also indicates as much. Included the Elite controller and I think it kind of markets itself. The hardcore this thing is targeted to already know it's capabilities.
I think the success of the Surface, iPad and MacBook have definitely conditioned the market to understand that the Pro suffix (is suffix the right word?) indicates the "better more expensive more powerful" version of what I'm buying.
Pro is a moniker that clearly indicates a "step up" and something that is intended for the enthusiast audience. The price gap also indicates as much. Included the Elite controller and I think it kind of markets itself. The hardcore this thing is targeted to already know it's capabilities.
I think the success of the Surface, iPad and MacBook have definitely conditioned the market to understand that the Pro suffix (is suffix the right word?) indicates the "better more expensive more powerful" version of what I'm buying.
I don't think the Scorpio will have "one" anywhere in the name.
Pro as a moniker for a game console is just silly. there's nothing professional about it