Support NeoGAF

[Dee Dah Dave]

I have a feeling you'll be disappointed. Gears 4 hasn't been announced as a Windows 10 game either and I don't expect it to become one now. I think everything announced moving forward will be Xbox/Windows 10 but if it didn't have a legitimate version announced to begin with, I don't see them forcing devs to also build for PC with projects originally announced as an Xbox One game. The reason why, see how Quantam Break turned out?

Yeah I know it's a gamble but my TV died so I'm having a spring clean along with a few upgrades. I barely played it anyway. I normally give old stuff to a charity my mrs deals with but even they didn't want it lol.

Anyway at worst I can maybe get a Scorpio and play it then.

Also i goofed and meant to post in the E3 thread

 

[...Scatter...]

Sorry for the late reply,

Certainly though, I see your point and the very contradictions in my own behaviour, however in the case of Xbox it’s not just the upgrade that irritates me as I can like with the Neo forgo it but the fact that I can get the same experience (exclusive games and features) on another platform, which to me screams a waste of money and as such why I stated “the news surrounding the release of the Scorpio has entirely put me off”.

If to you that’s not an issue, I understand, but to me that’s a major concern and why the news about the Xbox and Scorpio over the last couple of months has undoubtedly turn me off to the platform.

Fair enough. You are entitled to like whatever you want. I'm glad you accept the contradiction and at the end of the day we make emotional decisions over logical ones often enough. I appreciate that you didn't try to rationalize it. You'll do well here

 

[Mr Reasonable]

With astronomical dev costs for AAA games, you better bet only first-party MS studios would make use of these theoretical 6 TF.

Good point, anyone thinking about upgrading to the newer graphics cards at the moment shouldn't bother - no developer will be able to harness the power as it'll simply cost too much.

 

[Art Vandilay]

Good point, anyone thinking about upgrading to the newer graphics cards at the moment shouldn't bother - no developer will be able to harness the power as it'll simply cost too much.

Couldn't they increase fps and/or resolution at the very least?

 

[Dee Dah Dave]

3rd party devs are already using 6TF plus with PC Ultra settings. The Scorpio ain't going to be that mega.

 

[oldergamer]

3rd party devs are already using 6TF plus with PC Ultra settings. The Scorpio ain't going to be that mega.

Exactly.

 

[MilkyJoe]

With astronomical dev costs for AAA games, you better bet only first-party MS studios would make use of these theoretical 6 TF.

.

Or just use the Ultra setting textures etc, from the PC version?

Edit:

beat to the post

3rd party devs are already using 6TF plus with PC Ultra settings. The Scorpio ain't going to be that mega.

I honestly don;t know what people are expecting.

 

[BleedOrange]

3rd party devs are already using 6TF plus with PC Ultra settings. The Scorpio ain't going to be that mega.

Yeah but first-party gonna take it to the house tho.

This would be Polaris using DDR3/4 and EDRAM with just enough GPU to use the added memory bandwidth and compression Polaris offers. About PS4 performance.

XB1 Scorpio would be middle to late 2017 using HBM2 and more expensive.

This would help with the issue of the XB1 and the XBScorpio being so far apart in terms of performance, but I just don't see them supporting three individual spec targets at once.

 

[Dee Dah Dave]

Yeah but first-party gonna take it to the house tho.

Naturally, exclusives can always push things a bit further cos of dem hardware specific optimizations!

 

[mrklaw]

3rd party devs are already using 6TF plus with PC Ultra settings. The Scorpio ain't going to be that mega.

Initially i think that is what'll happen - installed base of Scorpio won't be high enough to justify any kind of specific development for it, so you'll get PC high/very high/ultra settings

But eventually as Neo and Scorpio user bases grow, that could see engines and games being developed around that as a baseline - so rather than just using the extra power for fancy AO or soft shadows, it could be used for more detailed environments or more complex simulations/AI etc

 

[EvB]

Yeah but first-party gonna take it to the house tho.



This would help with the issue of the XB1 and the XBScorpio being so far apart in terms of performance, but I just don't see them supporting three individual spec targets at once.

Well based upon what the compatibility team has done so far I imagine that all games will target Xbox one and everything else will be handled by the OS.

If developers want to create specific hardware profiles for resolution or whtatever, then that is what they can choose to do.

 

[JeffG]

I honestly don;t know what people are expecting.

I expect slightly better AA, some sharper shadows, farther draw distance and bit better resolution.

That's the age we are now in.

Even now, you see DF take stills of the XBox 1 and PS4 games and zoom in on some pixels.

 

[JumPeRJumPzZ]

I have a feeling you'll be disappointed. Gears 4 hasn't been announced as a Windows 10 game either and I don't expect it to become one now. I think everything announced moving forward will be Xbox/Windows 10 but if it didn't have a legitimate version announced to begin with, I don't see them forcing devs to also build for PC with projects originally announced as an Xbox One game. The reason why, see how Quantam Break turned out?

Uhm they announced Gears UE for PC at a later date...

Its still very possible that Gears 4 will be on PC too and i think they will announce that next week.

 

[Dee Dah Dave]

Uhm they announced Gears UE for PC at a later date...

Its still very possible that Gears 4 will be on PC too and i think they will announce that next week.

Yeah that's what I'm hoping for. Crackdown, Gears, Scalebound etc all now coming to Windows too. All announced at E3.

We shall see!

 

[FordGTGuy]

I expect slightly better AA, some sharper shadows, farther draw distance and bit better resolution.

That's the age we are now in.

Even now, you see DF take stills of the XBox 1 and PS4 games and zoom in on some pixels.

We are talking about four times the raw GPU power and you just expect a bit of a resolution bump?

 

[dragonelite]

Depend on how UWA handle those? Not sure they can fully utilize those hardware if a UWA design to work on multiple drastically different hardware configuration.
It might be just like PC this time. 6TF give you 6TF.

UWA is just a set of api calls shared over multiple systems.
See it like a OpenGL for threading, file access etc. UWA calls will not make or break
a game engines performance, because the engine will spend so little time in those calls.
Or do those uwa api calls asynchronous.

Its in Microsoft own interest to optimize those calls for everyone of their platforms.

 

[oldergamer]

Yeah but first-party gonna take it to the house tho.



This would help with the issue of the XB1 and the XBScorpio being so far apart in terms of performance, but I just don't see them supporting three individual spec targets at once.

They only need two. Low & High

 

[oldergamer]

Yeah that's what I'm hoping for. Crackdown, Gears, Scalebound etc all now coming to Windows too. All announced at E3.

We shall see!

They aren't going to announce ALL games coming to PC. That would give less reason for a Xbox purchase. They are releasing some titles as a way to bolster the games available on the MS store and make other publishers notice. I doubt they will push all xbox games to PC from this point forth.

 

[icespide]

They aren't going to announce ALL games coming to PC. That would give less reason for a Xbox purchase. They are releasing some titles as a way to bolster the games available on the MS store and make other publishers notice. I doubt they will push all xbox games to PC from this point forth.

their entire push with UWP is to blur the lines between Xbox and PC. I would not be surprised at all if they announce that all future Xbox first party games are coming to PC day and date.

 

[truth411]

I think it is important to realize that neither Neo or Scorpio will be strong enough for AAA 4K games. 1080p at Max settings and the occasional 4k psn/xbl download title should be doable. In other words since 1080p sets are the norm, neither upcoming consoles are strong enough for 4k gaming, Sony having a cheaper price point for the console and VR solution. I'm still giving Sony the edge globally and in the US/UK for the moment.

 

[Hockeymac18]

I think it is important to realize that neither Neo or Scorpio will be strong enough for AAA 4K games. 1080p at Max settings and the occasional 4k psn/xbl download title should be doable. In other words since 1080p sets are the norm, neither upcoming consoles are strong enough for 4k gaming, Sony having a cheaper price point for the console and VR solution. I'm still giving Sony the edge globally and in the US/UK for the moment.

4K 30 FPS? I see that being possible if they keep assets and effects about where they are for PS4 and XB1 games.

If they try to push the limits of Scorpio (assuming rumored specs) and go for improvements outside of FPS and/or resolution, then 4K might be harder. But considering we'll probably see a lot of "cross gen" stuff at play here (since devs will be supporting XB1 and PS4 for at least a few years), I wouldn't be surprised to just really see res/FPS improvements at first (and in that regard, I see 4K being possible).

 

[Bsigg12]

I think it is important to realize that neither Neo or Scorpio will be strong enough for AAA 4K games. 1080p at Max settings and the occasional 4k psn/xbl download title should be doable. In other words since 1080p sets are the norm, neither upcoming consoles are strong enough for 4k gaming, Sony having a cheaper price point for the console and VR solution. I'm still giving Sony the edge globally and in the US/UK for the moment.

If the Scorpio comes in at 6TF, I could absolutely see 4k30 games.

 

[icespide]

I think it is important to realize that neither Neo or Scorpio will be strong enough for AAA 4K games. 1080p at Max settings and the occasional 4k psn/xbl download title should be doable. In other words since 1080p sets are the norm, neither upcoming consoles are strong enough for 4k gaming, Sony having a cheaper price point for the console and VR solution. I'm still giving Sony the edge globally and in the US/UK for the moment.

I honestly think Sony or MS would try to run games at slightly higher than 1080 and let the scaler handle 4k and call it a day. They would still tout these as "4k ready" or whatever

 

[Maximilian Kolbe]

It will be nice to see Dead Rising 4 with 1080/60 in Scorpio.

 

[Backfoggen]

It will be nice to see Dead Rising 4 with 1080/60 in Scorpio.

I think they will go for a higher resolution and cap at 30fps.

 

[...Scatter...]

I expect slightly better AA, some sharper shadows, farther draw distance and bit better resolution.

That's the age we are now in.

Even now, you see DF take stills of the XBox 1 and PS4 games and zoom in on some pixels.

Slightly better AA. That's an understatement. It's going to look like 360 vs. Xbox One

 

[BleedOrange]

I think they will go for a higher resolution and cap at 30fps.

Do we think these new consoles will have support for downscaling/superscaling for when a 1080p screen is detected?

 

[truth411]

I honestly think Sony or MS would try to run games at slightly higher than 1080 and let the scaler handle 4k and call it a day. They would still tout these as "4k ready" or whatever

Hmmm... Didn't think about that.
So do you guys think:

Neo = 1440p
Scorpio = 2160p

Both @ 30fps?

 

[...Scatter...]

Do we think these new consoles will have support for downscaling/superscaling for when a 1080p screen is detected?

It's going to force 4k onto your tv until it starts smoking and eventually blows up. What is dead can not be killed.

 

[truth411]

Do we think these new consoles will have support for downscaling/superscaling for when a 1080p screen is detected?

They do that now, hook up a 720p TV or a SD 480p TV to your current console.

 

[ps3ud0]

Im expecting them to hopefully be sensible and just internally render at 1080p and scale to 4k UHD if you have the TV for it. That should allow for some really nice post-processing, 60fps and likely superscaling.

Its a shame that the jump between 1080p and 4k UHD is so huge but least its nice to scale between. What is the market penetration for 4k UHD currently?

They do that now, hook up a 720p TV or a SD 480p TV to your current console.

I think he means internally rendering it like GT5/6 does if you choose 720p instead of 1080p

ps3ud0 8)

 

[BleedOrange]

They do that now, hook up a 720p TV or a SD 480p TV to your current console.

Yeah but that's just using the TV scalar right? Aren't they generally garbage?

 

[truth411]

Yeah but that's just using the TV scalar right? Aren't they generally garbage?

I think it's the console that does the scaling. It's in the settings, one less thing for the TV to do.

 

[JeffG]

We are talking about four times the raw GPU power and you just expect a bit of a resolution bump?

Pretty much

Look at the differences between PS4 and high end PC's on any DF video.

Sharper Shadows (and maybe more shadows)
Higher Res (sometimes)
Farther Draw distance

 

[Mihalis0013]

Am I the only one that finds it amusing that we have 2 boxes that really don't do 1080p well (too many games at 30fps, settings low compared to PCs, Xbone issues, etc, etc.) and now that we're supposedly getting some hardware that would be able to finally have 1080p games looking great these new boxes will be all about VR and possible 4k upscaling and still be arguably "under powered"?

 

[JeffG]

It's going to look like 360 vs. Xbox One

Pretty much


ROTR would probably be a good example

 

[icespide]

Am I the only one that finds it amusing that we have 2 boxes that really don't do 1080p well (too many games at 30fps, settings low compared to PCs, Xbone issues, etc, etc.) and now that we're supposedly getting some hardware that would be able to finally have 1080p games looking great these new boxes will be all about VR and possible 4k upscaling and still be arguably "under powered"?

you're stretching there. majority of PS4 games are 1080p and they look good

 

[Mihalis0013]

you're stretching there. majority of PS4 games are 1080p and they look good

The "best" looking game was The Order 1886 and had letter box to create "cinematic feel" or in non marketing BS "because the box can't do 1920x1080 at those graphics settings" and the game had lack luster game play which restricted action on screen.

Lowering visual settings for the sake of saying your game runs at a certain resolution, doesn't equal running 1080p well in my view.

Even Ryse for Xbox One. The "best" looking game on that box that I've played went to 900p but kept other visual settings turned up.

Fallout 4 has fps issues on both consoles. GTA V had frame issues on both boxes in spots. Shadow of Mordor had frame issues at times on both boxes.

Doom uses a dynamic resolution and iirc so does Witcher 3.

on PC, Witcher 3 can be set to 1920x1080 without the need to turn down shadows and aa.

My point wasn't that the current gen can't do 1080p. My point is that both the Xbox One (obviously way more so) and the Playstation 4 struggle with it.

 

[Proelite]

This would help with the issue of the XB1 and the XBScorpio being so far apart in terms of performance, but I just don't see them supporting three individual spec targets at once.

My creative chat on Slim upgrades.

There was some linkedin info some a Xbox engineer that the slim refresh would be 20nm. If so, then Polaris is out of the option.

If the refresh is 14nm, then obviously it would be cheaper to use Polaris cores as is if BC is available from the hardware level.

Considering that Polaris is probably at least 50% more bandwidth efficient than GCN 1.1, then there is ability to increase TFLOPS by at least 50% to 1.95 teraflops.

There are some complications though for large increase like that.

Adding more CUs probably won't do much for graphically. One has to increase the ROPs too. AMD doesn't do 24 ROPS, so the GPU would have be 32 ROPS. The better thing to do is to boost the clock to 1.2 ghz. Keep the same amount of CUs, ROPs etc. Increasing clocks on the GPU means that the esram would have to be increased in tandem. Esram when clocked high gets exponentially more power hungry, so the 1.2 ghz might not be feasible.

As for an upgrade slim be an extra specs target, Imo that's definitely right. Scorpio is actually not since it'll just be one of the many PC configurations that devs already targets.

Upgrades slim would be exactly like the Neo situation, which is a bigger burden for devs than Scorpio would be.

What I can see happening is a simple 10-25% overclock on the CPU and GPU for OS purposes.

 

[CyberMiguel]

their entire push with UWP is to blur the lines between Xbox and PC. I would not be surprised at all if they announce that all future Xbox first party games are coming to PC day and date.

I won't be surprised either. In fact, Microsoft unveiled today the new set of features for their Windows 10 Xbox app and Xbox one firmware. Unsurprisingly, they are merging the game collections between Xbox and Windows and merging the stores, as well as integrating Cortana to Xbox one firmware.

I'll give it untill mid-2017 for both platforms to merge almost completely and work in sync as a service (which is Satya's vision anyway: Microsoft software as a service).

 

[Lady Gaia]

So do you guys think:

Neo = 1440p
Scorpio = 2160p

Both @ 30fps?

2160p is 2.25x the pixel count of 1440p, so it's not likely that we'd see the two running at the same frame rate given these resolutions. Honestly, I'd expect both to render AAA titles significantly sub-4K to focus on improved effects, lighting, and so forth.

There are a lot of unknowns still. Memory bandwidth is one of the bigger open questions. If Scorpio goes with HBM2 then it could be pretty beastly. Anything more conventional risks starving the GPU a lot of the time and making the theoretical throughout less relevant. As always, balance will be extremely important when it comes to the final specs of both consoles.

 

[CyberMiguel]

Its a shame that the jump between 1080p and 4k UHD is so huge but least its nice to scale between. What is the market penetration for 4k UHD currently?

http://www.broadbandtvnews.com/2015/03/10/4k-tv-ownership-in-us-will-reach-10-by-2016/

According to that, UHD TVs ownership in the USA will reach 10% this year and is expected to rise to 50% by 2020.

http://4k.com/news/4k-tv-sales-to-surpass-100-million-units-by-2018-5948/

Given those numbers, I think it's simply ridiculous to try and force 4k30fps gaming for a niche. Wouldn't it be better for Microsoft and Sony to actually fulfill their promises and deliver "ultra settings" 1080p60 for the largest market?

 

[nekkid]

2160p is 2.25x the pixel count of 1440p, so it's not likely that we'd see the two running at the same frame rate given these resolutions. Honestly, I'd expect both to render AAA titles significantly sub-4K to focus on improved effects, lighting, and so forth.

There are a lot of unknowns still. Memory bandwidth is one of the bigger open questions. If Scorpio goes with HBM2 then it could be pretty beastly. Anything more conventional risks starving the GPU a lot of the time and making the theoretical throughout less relevant. As always, balance will be extremely important when it comes to the final specs of both consoles.

I'd rather they did, to be honest.

 

[wachie]

Hmmm... Didn't think about that.
So do you guys think:

Neo = 1440p
Scorpio = 2160p

Both @ 30fps?

More like

Neo = 1440p
Scorpio = 1600p

That's assuming the game can baseline on Neo at 1440p.

 

[MilkyJoe]

More like

Neo = 1440p
Scorpio = 1600p

That's assuming the game can baseline on Neo at 1440p.

More like 1080 on both with everything turned up to 11.

4K will be too much at the IQ we are used to in most AAA games. And they don't make TVs in those resolutions.

 

[a Master Ninja]

I hope Dead Rising 4 is a Scorpio showcase.

 

[MilkyJoe]

I hope Dead Rising 4 is a Scorpio showcase.

I bought an xbone for DR3. What a disappointing game it was.

 

[WadeitOut]

What a disappointing game it was.

You're opinion is wrong.

 

[etta]

More like

Neo = 1440p
Scorpio = 1600p

That's assuming the game can baseline on Neo at 1440p.

I doubt any developers will go for 1440p or 1600p. Either 1080p since it scales nicely to 4K or just 4K.
1080p with a boatload of extra graphics and effects will be the norm for another 3-5 years I bet.

 

[therealbigrich]

1080 PC ultra settings with 60 fps locked is the absolute best anybody can hope for and Im not sure if they will be able to hit that. If the neo and Scorpio can it will last the next 3-4 years and I think people will be mainly happy