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[AnathemicOne]

That's a valid and understandable opinion. It's not that I don't agree with an outright gun ban, it's that I don't think it's realistically possible. Alcohol was outlawed at one point as well, but people still transported and drank it.

People need to listen to each other instead of outright insulting or berating anyone that doesn't share their exact opinion. That accomplishes literally nothing.

People have the "right" to bear arms according to the Constitution, but people should also have the right to not fear for their lives in public places due to easy access to firearms. But, again, people who feel strongly about either side of this argument are almost universally unwilling to listen.

We've had a good ~2 decades to have a good respectful discourse on this topic; the two sides arguing here are not equal. One is accompanied by the hundreds if not thousands of indiscriminate corpses ranging from adults to children and the other is accompanied by their favorite toys. Please forgive me for being on the former side and feeling a bit miffed.

 

[HeySeuss]

I just saw an update saying the death toll is now 53. I'd expect that number to continue to rise, sadly.

Gun control laws can easily be implemented but probably never will. Too many think that stricter background checks and psychological evaluation will somehow mean king barrack will repel through their kitchen window and steal their guns away from them.

 

[esmith08734]

This is why I gave up on masking my opinion on this debate wholeheartedly. Will gun regulations be nice? Yeah it would, but then I imagine the many children with bloodied faces; I imagine young life ended prematurely; I imagine families being broken and shambled.

And I directly see the panic and fear victims experience

Man, those photos really bummed me out. I can't believe this.

 

[MUnited83]

Any reason why this discussion is 99.9% gun control and almost nothing about FBI or radical Islam?

Because he bought his gun legally, with fucking nothing stopping from doing so?

 

[shandy706]

Yes they will just log on to blackmarket.org and have their rifles and explosives delivered to them, or they will just go down to their local cornerstore black market and buy there

In many states you can just go to the local flea market and buy a gun. Pretty easy.

Don't even need "black" markets.

 

[HyperionX]

Repealing the second amendment and a gun ban are reasonable and highly rational opinions. It's not like many of us came to that conclusion last night; A lot of us have been saying this for years.

 

[partyphone]

Arguing for a gun ban in reaction to this situation isn't logical, though. There are a ton of reasons why it isn't, which have been discussed throughout this thread. I totally get the emotional reaction leading to that but it's imperative that we don't let emotions lead our actions.

it's perfectly logical. I haven't seen a single logical or rational argument against gun control.

a time to kill, indeed.

 

[harriet the spy]

Doesn't Australia's gun legislation pretty much prove this wrong? Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't gun violence decrease significantly after they instituted programs to get legal guns off the streets?

I completely agree that gun regulation would considerably decrease gun violence and should be enacted. I just don't think it affects terrorism much.

 

[Royal_Phalanx]

As a direct comparison, German gun law.

Gun ownership in Germany is regulated by the Federal Weapons Act (German: Waffengesetz), 1972; it extends previous gun legislation. It is considered a restrictive law.[82] Under this act Germany maintains a two-tier policy to firearm ownership.
A firearms ownership license allows for the purchasing of weapons by those over the age of 18 who meet various competency/trustworthiness guidelines. Convicted felons, those with a mental disability or those deemed unreliable are denied licenses. To get a license issued it is also required to prove the necessity of owning a gun, while self-defense is not an accepted reason to own a gun. Owners of multiple firearms need separate ownership licenses for every single firearm they own. For shooters it is necessary to be a member of a shooting club for more than one year. Furthermore, within the last 12 months, a visit to a shooting club must be recorded no fewer than 18 times.
The second tier is a firearms carry permit which allows concealed carry in public. The permits are usually only issued to individuals with a particular need; such as persons at risk, money couriers, etc.
The laws apply to any weapons with a fire energy exceeding 7.5 Joule.
Several weapons and special ammunitions are completely prohibited. To these belong for example automatic firearms and weapons of war, as well as weapons like Brass knuckles, Switchblades, Balisongs, Nunchakus or Tasers. Buying, possessing, lending, using, carrying, crafting, altering and trading of these weapons is illegal and punishable by up to five years imprisonment, confiscation of the weapon and a fine of up to €10,000. Using an illegal weapon for crime of any kind is punishable by from 1 to 10 years imprisonment.
Germany's National Gun Registry introduced at the end of 2012 counted 5.5 million firearms legally owned by 1.4 million people. (31. December 2013) people in the country.[83]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0-J2pYLCvI

I think we can all agree that the lack of regulations in the US is simply insane.

 

[linkboy]

Where is the NRA getting their money to do all this?

From people who join the club. You join the NRA and pay a monthly due.

I think somebody explained it's not technically an assault rifle (AR in AR-15 doesn't stand for "assault rifle.") It's a sporting rifle. Media and politicians like to sensationalize these things and always talk about "assault rifles." Anyway if that's wrong I'm sure somebody will tell me.

History of the AR-15

The top picture is an AR-15, the bottom picture is a M-4 Carbine (which is a smaller version of the M-16). The AR-15 is the civilian version of the M16/M-4. The difference between the two is that the M16/M-4 can fire a 3 round burst where the AR-15 can't (but can be modified to via aftermarket parts, which can be illegal).

On the M16/M-4, there's a switch that goes from safe to semi to burst. When the M16/M-4 is in semi mode, its the exact same gun as an AR-15.

I'm in the military and have fired the M16/M-4. In the 10 years I've been in, I've only got to shoot it in burst mode once, and that was in training in a here's what it's like to fire burst situation. It's not something that's recommended as it makes it harder to get an accurate shot (there's a reason why it's called spray and pray).

Just because the AR-15 is sold as a civilian rifle (cue to it not having a burst mode), doesn't change the fact that it's an assault rifle.

 

[timetokill]

How about arguing for more stringent restrictions on access to deadly weapons, because US gun laws are just stupid. They were stupid before this heinous act, they remain stupid now.

Sure. I've said multiple times in this thread I'm in favor of sensible gun control. But multiple people, including nekofrog, have argued for a gun ban and it's simply not logical, and the way it would have to happen would be through a violation of more than one amendment. People keep referencing Obama mentioning the No Fly List and how people on it can get a gun, apparently fine with abandoning due process in the pursuit of supposed security.

Nekofrog flew off the handle and said everyone against a gun ban was in favor of murder. It's not logical.

it's perfectly logical. I haven't seen a single logical or rational argument against gun control.

a time to kill, indeed.

You're confusing gun control and gun bans. Note the one I was talking about.

 

[cr0w]

We've had a good ~2 decades to have a good respectful discourse on this topic; the two sides arguing here are not equal. One is accompanied by the hundreds if not thousands of indiscriminate corpses ranging from adults to children and the other is accompanied by their favorite toys. Please forgive me for being on the former side and feeling a bit miffed.

Again, I'm not saying your position is wrong. I'm saying that automatically treating anyone with an even slightly differing opinion than yours like heinous scum of the Earth accomplishes absolutely nothing. I don't blame you for the way you feel one bit. I'm technically with you. But my idealism is equal to my realism, so the emotional response I have to these things is tempered by my logical response. Nothing is accomplished by existing on the extreme end of either spectrum and being unwilling to move away from that end.

 

[SolicitorPirate]

Doesn't Australia's gun legislation pretty much prove this wrong? Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't gun violence decrease significantly after they instituted programs to get legal guns off the streets?

Australian here. Working out pretty well for us.

 

[q1dm4]

we keep dying and they keep telling us how important their toys are. can this nightmare just end? please?

 

[tauroxd]

From people who join the club. You join the NRA and pay a monthly due.



History of the AR-15





The top picture is an AR-15, the bottom picture is a M-4 Carbine (which is a smaller version of the M-16). The AR-15 is the civilian version of the M16/M-4. The difference between the two is that the M16/M-4 can fire a 3 round burst where the AR-15 can't (but can be modified to via aftermarket parts, which can be illegal).

On the M16/M-4, there's a switch that goes from safe to semi to burst. When the M16/M-4 is in semi mode, its the exact same gun as an AR-15.

I'm in the military and have fired the M16/M-4. In the 10 years I've been in, I've only got to shoot it in burst mode once, and that was in training in a here's what it's like to fire burst situation. It's not something that's recommended as it makes it harder to get an accurate shot (there's a reason why it's called spray and pray).

Just because the AR-15 is sold as a civilian rifle (cue to it not having a burst mode), doesn't change the fact that it's an assault rifle.

Thanks for talking about this. It is an assault rifle.

 

[jetjevons]

Number of "Join the NRA" ads I'm getting when visiting this thread is sort of disconcerting.

 

[timetokill]

Oh, this is that "Now's not the time to talk about guns" argument that leads to hand waving away the problem. As if these events aren't happening on a nearly constant basis.

No, it isn't. Please don't misrepresent my posts.

 

[OmegaSmash]

Man, that facebook post about the police officers hearing the phones still ringing while inside the club really got me real bad. I have a friend that lives close to that area and I got FB Check In notification so he was alright, but after reading that story I just had to call him to make sure he was alright.

And now I have another friend that wants to go to California on basically a whim to meet up with some guy (he lives in PR) and now I'm honestly scared of him. At least other people tell him that it's a bad idea, but he still wants to go.

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

Extending the waiting period isn't necessarily a denial of civil liberty. I guess I wouldn't be opposed to that being a part of gun reform. But again, would that have prevent this? These people who get radicalized aren't in a temporary fit of rage or whatever. Lets say he had to wait a month, two months. Why would this prevent him from carrying out the attack at that time? We'd be having this same conversation.

What I'm saying is an extended waiting period would potentially allow people to come forward, investigations to take place, etc.

As for solving radical Islam...I personally don't have an answer. But the first steps involve talking about the problem. Too many people are hand waving away the ideas in Islam that manifest into these actions. If the extremes on either side dominate the conversation ("ban all Muslims!" and "Islam is not the issue") we'll get nowhere.

See here is my problem, no one has an answer to this, yet everyone wants this to be the crux of the issue. Where is the solution, I don't think there is one without eviscerating civil liberties, which you seem to be against. It is such a talking point to demand this be labeled and pushed on Islam. It isn't Islam, it is a radical/extremist sect.

 

[partyphone]

we keep dying and they keep telling us how important their toys are. can this nightmare just end? please?

it has become pretty clear that there is no number high enough for these people. the only way forward is to stop trying to compromise and ban most guns.

 

[shintoki]

Doesn't Australia's gun legislation pretty much prove this wrong? Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't gun violence decrease significantly after they instituted programs to get legal guns off the streets?

You mean after their biggest mass shooting they banned guns... and in the past 20 years, I don't think they've had a single one?

Clearly banning guns does not help. >_>

it has become pretty clear that there is no number high enough for these people. the only way forward is to stop trying to compromise and ban most guns.

You know if one of them started shooting up some politicians or NRA members. Their tune will change 180 within 2 seconds. That's the issue. As long as the gun isn't pointed at the ones making the laws and wanting the law. It will never change. Since the majority of the deaths are people who they'll never meet, poor people, blacks, gays, etc.

 

[DontBeThatGuy]

As a direct comparison, German gun law.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0-J2pYLCvI

I think we can all agree that the lack of regulations in the US is simply insane.

An enormous amount of people still cling to a 230 year old document like it's their lord and savior, so of course we're insane.

 

[royalan]

I don't recall jihadism having a damn thing to do with that nutjob going into that church in Charleston and killing 9 innocent black people worshiping in what should have been the safest of safe spaces.

Or that nut who shot up the Planned Parenthood clinic in Colorado.

Or the shitbag who killed over two dozen people, most of them children, in Sandy Hook.

None of these killings had a thing to do with Islam, or jihadism.

But you know what they did have in common? The nuts who committed these atrocities were able to go out and legally purchase the guns they used.

So spare my black ass all the "why aren't we talking about islamic terrorism?" nonsense.

 

[Royal_Phalanx]

Australian here. Working out pretty well for us.

I feel Australian weapons law is overly restrictive, I mean, things like airsoft, paintball guns and pellet guns are banned there, wtf. Goes beyond saving lives to being an authoritarian nanny state. Are many people getting killed by those items being legal? You're even more restrictive than the UK, lol. I can still buy this stuff in the UK without a license if under a certain joule limit or something.

 

[mid83]

Is there a figure on the deterrence? I see this thrown around, but I honestly don't see why people think it wouldn't do anything to deter them. Perhaps this would have gone through - the killer seemed passionate enough that he would have killed with or without a legal firearm - but many crimes of passion I think could have been deterred.

I think gun control would be far more effective in stopping domestic shootings, crimes of passion and random street crime. Situations where ease of quick and cheap access play a role in the shooter getting a firearm.

The issue people point out is that for radicalized and pre planned shootings like this one, gun control may not provide much of a deterrence. We will never know for sure, but I would assume that radicalization (and having enough money to purchase black market firearms) wouldn't allow gun laws to stop them from committing these awful crimes.

At the end of the day, we need to come together and have a reasonable conversation about what to do to help prevent these things from happening. People on here basically equating all religious people or people who aren't for an outright ban to murderers doesn't get us anywhere in that conversation.

A different topic, but I'm bothered by the anti religious sentiment here. Keep in mind, the overwhelming majority of religious individuals (and not all religious people are like the crazy crackpot evangelicals you see on tv) are peaceful people who are just as horrified about this as all of you. Most of us just want to believe in the God or belief system we choose without interference from others, and that includes atheism if you so choose. I know emotions are running high today but I don't think insulting the belief system of billions of human beings is the solution to our problems.

 

[a Master Ninja]

Doesn't Australia's gun legislation pretty much prove this wrong? Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't gun violence decrease significantly after they instituted programs to get legal guns off the streets?

Yes.

 

[neurosisxeno]

An enormous amount of people still cling to [one part of] a 230 year old document like it's their lord and savior, so of course we're insane.

Fixed that for you. People ignore most of the Constitution except the 2nd and often 1st Amendments. Hell, most people can't tell you what any of them are outside of 1,2, and probably 5 thanks to movies.

 

[Pandy]

I completely agree that gun regulation would considerably decrease gun violence and should be enacted. I just don't think it affects terrorism much.

It raises the bar for entry.

You'd have to be far better financed/resourced to carry out a successful terrorist attack on this scale, which is either going to put a lot of people off altogether or see them commit a lesser attack with fewer victims.

Given that these guns were purchased legally, it's pretty much impossible for me to accept that this attack would definitely have happened had proper (i.e. total) gun control been in place.

 

[beast786]

I don't recall jihadism having a damn thing to do with that nutjob going into that church in Charleston and killing 9 innocent black people worshiping in what should have been the safest of safe spaces.

Or that nut who shot up the Planned Parenthood clinic in Colorado.

Or the shitbag who killed over two dozen people, most of them children, in Sandy Hook.

None of these killings had a thing to do with Islam, or jihadism.

But you know what they did have in common? The nuts who committed these atrocities were able to go out and legally purchase the guns they used.

So spare my black ass all the "why aren't we talking about islamic terrorism?" nonsense.

So let's ignore why and just concentrate on how.

Makes perfect sense.

 

[Steel]

Fixed that for you. People ignore most of the Constitution except the 2nd and often 1st Amendments. Hell, most people can't tell you what any of them are outside of 1,2, and probably 5 thanks to movies.

And most people that cite the 1st amendment don't understand how it works anyway.

 

[Granjinha]

Jesus, what a tragedy. Fuck this.

That image of the cellphone messages is gut-wrenching. I legit teared up with that.

 

[Hip Hop]

"why aren't we talking about islamic terrorism?" nonsense.

It's not nonsense when this shooting is related to that.

 

[SolicitorPirate]

I feel Australian weapons law is overly restrictive, I mean, things like airsoft, paintball guns and pellet guns are banned there, wtf. Goes beyond saving lives to being an authoritarian nanny state. Are many people getting killed by those items being legal? You're even more restrictive than the UK, lol. I can still buy this stuff in the UK without a license if under a certain joule limit or something.

Eh, if you wanna call us an "Authoritarian nanny state," go ahead. Can't speak for anyone else, but I have zero emotional or intellectual investment in my ability to buy airsoft guns.

 

[neurosisxeno]

And most people that cite the 1st amendment don't understand how it works anyway.

Yea. Most people struggle to understand that the 1st Amendment isn't a free ticket to say whatever you want to anyone--it just means the Government can't arrest you for shit talking what they do, worshiping a specific diety, or protesting peacefully.

 

[HK-47]

it has become pretty clear that there is no number high enough for these people. the only way forward is to stop trying to compromise and ban most guns.

lol if it so hard to even get in the door why are we jumping to the most extreme and difficult form of legislation possible? I mean its great if you wanna spin your wheels and wish upon a star that things were different.

 

[trembli0s]

What I'm saying is an extended waiting period would potentially allow people to come forward, investigations to take place, etc.



See here is my problem, no one has an answer to this, yet everyone wants this to be the crux of the issue. Where is the solution, I don't think there is one without eviscerating civil liberties, which you seem to be against. It is such a talking point to demand this be labeled and pushed on Islam. It isn't Islam, it is a radical/extremist sect.

What does an extended waiting period do in a situation like this? He could not have been forbidden from purchasing this weapon, he would have just gone through the waiting period.

Now, I'd be fine with having people the FBI has good reason to believe are becoming radicalized from being able to purchase firearms, but that smacks of profiling to a lot of people.

 

[Diffense]

Just saw this:

Death is the sentence. We know. There is nothing to be embarassed about this. Death is the sentence.

We have to have that compassion for people. For homosexuals it's the same. Out of compassion, let's get rid of them now

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=4&v=qBlwxqqAprQ

People like this should not be allowed to enter the USA and they certainly should not be given a platform to potentially disseminate their vile ideas.
There's another line of attack in addition to making it more difficult for unsuitable people to obtain guns.

 

[timetokill]

There's no reason we can't talk about the continuing threat of Islamic terrorism as well as guns, mental illness, homophobia, etc. It's all part of the soup.

There are political reasons that the left wants to focus only on guns and homophobia and the right wants to focus only on mental illness and terrorism, but honestly they should all be on the table.

 

[ShironRedshift]

I don't recall jihadism having a damn thing to do with that nutjob going into that church in Charleston and killing 9 innocent black people worshiping in what should have been the safest of safe spaces.

Or that nut who shot up the Planned Parenthood clinic in Colorado.

Or the shitbag who killed over two dozen people, most of them children, in Sandy Hook.

None of these killings had a thing to do with Islam, or jihadism.

But you know what they did have in common? The nuts who committed these atrocities were able to go out and legally purchase the guns they used.

So spare my black ass all the "why aren't we talking about islamic terrorism?" nonsense.

Indeed. It's especially fascinating when talk of what very nearly happened in Santa Monica is getting drowned out because it by itself also destroys that point. That and the Christina Grimmie shooting. But no, Islamic terrorism is what we really need to be focusing on and doubling down on, while just continuing the pretend all that other stuff doesn't exist and just send empty condolences to those affected instead and pretending there's no larger problem while the bodies just continue to pile up, day after day after day after day after day....

 

[Royal_Phalanx]

lol if it so hard to even get in the door why are we jumping to the most extreme and difficult form of legislation possible? I mean its great if you wanna spin your wheels and wish upon a star that things were different.

I don't support banning most guns anyway. Goes beyond sensible regulation and more towards emotional feel good legislation. Also it vindicates the 'gun grabbers' rhetoric because you are literally trying to take their property away. Outright bans, as I said before, are authoritarian and illiberal.

 

[shintoki]

Just saw this:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=4&v=qBlwxqqAprQ

People like this should not be allowed to enter the USA and they certainly should not be given a platform to potentially disseminate their vile ideas.

I believe that would be considered hate speech, where I would have no problem with some cops cracking down their door.

 

[HK-47]

There's no reason we can't talk about the continuing threat of Islamic terrorism as well as guns, mental illness, homophobia, etc. It's all part of the soup.

There are political reasons that the left wants to focus only on guns and homophobia and the right wants to focus only on mental illness and terrorism, but honestly they should all be on the table.

Mental illness is only on the table to obfuscate the gun conversation. The right doesnt give a shit about mental healthcare, especially given the actions of their god king Reagan.

 

[partyphone]

Just saw this:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=4&v=qBlwxqqAprQ

People like this should not be allowed to enter the USA and they certainly should not be given a platform to potentially disseminate their vile ideas.
There's another line of attack in addition to making it more difficult for unsuitable people to obtain guns.

three republican presidential candidates were on a stage where a Christian pastor said the same exact thing.

not that I don't sympathize with your sentiment.

 

[Mr_Moogle]

Don't Americans feel any shame or embarrassment over their country's gun laws? The rest of the developed world looks down on you in complete disgust.

 

[Jonm1010]

So let's ignore why and just concentrate on how.

Makes perfect sense.

His point is that the "why" is shifting and more elusive to nail down. The "How" however, is not. They are obtaining guns legally and using them to carry out their attacks.

And these are the pop culture shootings, what never gets much press is the 11,000+ gun homicide deaths per year. Throw on top of that suicides, accidents, and injury.

 

[shintoki]

Mental illness is only on the table to obfuscate the gun conversation. The right doesnt give a shit about mental healthcare, especially given the actions of their god king Reagan.

Remember, Reagen would actually be left now with his ideals. That's the scary thing.

 

[royalan]

So let's ignore why and just concentrate on how.

Makes perfect sense.

Actually it does, since the "why" you want to focus on wouldn't even begin to answer the question of the insane number of mass shootings that take place in this country.

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

There's no reason we can't talk about the continuing threat of Islamic terrorism as well as guns, mental illness, homophobia, etc. It's all part of the soup.

There are political reasons that the left wants to focus only on guns and homophobia and the right wants to focus only on mental illness and terrorism, but honestly they should all be on the table.

What do we do about the continued threat of Islamic terrorism? Cause I don't know and it seems like the entirety of the globe is caught up in a situation that we have no real answer for. Well other than the ridiculous if you label it this it is going to magically fix things.

Fine, it is radical Islam, people have been saying it forever. They just want to make sure they aren't lumping an entire subgroup of humanity into the shit pool. I really don't think that is a bad thing.

 

[Diffense]

three republican presidential candidates were on a stage where a Christian pastor said the same exact thing.

not that I don't sympathize with your sentiment.

I have absolutely ZERO love for them either. But there are enough domestic crazies. No need to import any.

 

[HK-47]

Don't Americans feel any shame or embarrassment over their country's gun laws? The rest of the developed world looks down on you in complete disgust.

This is pretty disgusting. The rest of the world could do without your self righteousness or generalizations.