Support NeoGAF

[Steel]

IIRC, Phalanx isn't against gun control, just gun bans, though I may be mistaken

I was talking about replicas, not actual firearms. Read my past posts here, I'm not against gun control.

Ah, got confused there, sorry for the snark. Carry on, I'm not in favor of gun bans either simply because of how unfeasible a task it would be.

 

[timetokill]

The problem I have is that anytime you mention the words gun and control, the NRA goes off and starts spouting the "they're going to take your guns" BS and refuses to even engage in discussions.

It's hard to try to implement something when one group won't even listen (and if there's going to be any sensible gun control implemented, the NRA and their supports will be involved in it).

I agree this is a problem. No question.

Your guns aren't stopping the military. In a hypothetical authoritarian takeover, based on common trends, its the people clinging to their guns that seem to be the most interested in instilling an authoritarian regime in the first place. So there is also that.

The Second amendment is outdated and all of the rest of the first world has gotten by just fine without such broad rights to guns. Empirically speaking it has made us less safe then safe.

I've addressed this. Look around the world. Uprisings are happening all over the place against theoretically superior armies.

The US government cannot win a war against its own citizens. You guys always think of this like it's gonna be some rednecks shooting uselessly against a tank. It's actually about human beings, and a government telling its soldiers to shoot their friends and family and communities. It's a press that will cover every child bombed by the US government. The idea that the citizenry, as well armed as it is, couldn't overthrow the government is absurd. Of course it could. And furthermore you should want a government aware of such a possibility, to ensure it serves and doesn't rule.

 

[AnathemicOne]

Except the Sandy Hook killer (Adam Lanza) didn't legally purchase the guns he used. They were legally purchased by his mother, kept in a place he had access to, and she "responsibly" trained him in the use and maintenance of said firearms.

Except the 2 shootings in Orlando this weekend had guns legally purchased which could've been prevented. What's your point?

 

[Diffense]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBDbGyv6SIQ

What do you want to do with this guy? Or what should we do about right-wing news orgs that rile up their fanatics on the issue of abortion, even parading a disgustingly bogus video around as if it were legit? They may not be imports, but let's not act like extremism isn't everywhere, even in our more mainstream outlets, always a mouse click away.

What we do with this?

Where did I say that extremism is limited to certain parts of the world? Aren't we in a thread discussing a massacre in Orlando? Listen, I have no time for people putting words in my mouth. I said pages ago that I hate Christians too. They simply should not be able to get away with their hate speech just because they appeal to some book that's more ancient than the Roman Empire.

 

[J@hranimo]

So is the killer dead?

 

[Alligatorjandro]

So is the killer dead?

Yes

 

[timetokill]

Had a talk with some family today. I know of four of the victims confirmed to have been killed - I didn't know them much personally but they are friends of the family. I know of a possible fifth. Noone can get a hold of her - dad's cousin.

Fuck.

Goddamn, dude. My condolences. It's absolutely horrible.

 

[neurosisxeno]

Except the 2 shooting in Orlando this weekend had guns legally purchased which could've been prevented.

Most of the mass killings in the US and even abroad are done with legally acquired firearms.

 

[everyday math]

I agree this is a problem. No question.



I've addressed this. Look around the world. Uprisings are happening all over the place against theoretically superior armies.

The US government cannot win a war against its own citizens. You guys always think of this like it's gonna be some rednecks shooting uselessly against a tank. It's actually about human beings, and a government telling its soldiers to shoot their friends and family and communities. It's a press that will cover every child bombed by the US government. The idea that the citizenry, as well armed as it is, couldn't overthrow the government is absurd. Of course it could. And furthermore you should want a government aware of such a possibility, to ensure it serves and doesn't rule.

Police don't seem to have an issue with doing it. Hell during Ferguson the Nation Guard came in and they weren't there for the citizens.
I don't know how it would turn out, but I don't see it ending well for Americans.

Man time to leave this thread. Getting into to much speculation type posts.

 

[HK-47]

Had a talk with some family today. I know of four of the victims confirmed to have been killed - I didn't know them much personally but they are friends of the family. I know of a possible fifth. Noone can get a hold of her - dad's cousin.

Fuck.

Thats rough even if you didnt know them closely.

 

[Chuck Norris]

Yet they're legal in Canada, Sweden, Germany, France, etc. I see no major problems in allowing people to have them. Those places are also very safe countries. Might as well ban video games with guns in them if you want to stop 'gun glorification'.

Most of those countries, like Australia, allow access to guns only for fully licensed people who have proof of using it in a specific way eg farming, or hunting

Vastly different from over the counter purchasing of almost any gun possible

 

[AnathemicOne]

Most of the mass killings in the US and even abroad are done with legally acquired firearms.

So we are in agreement of outright banning guns then? Because I totally am.

 

[platakul]

Except the Sandy Hook killer (Adam Lanza) didn't legally purchase the guns he used. They were legally purchased by his mother, kept in a place he had access to, and she "responsibly" trained him in the use and maintenance of said firearms.

That supports the argument yes

 

[HK-47]

Most of those countries, like Australia, allow access to guns only for fully licensed people who have proof of using it in a specific way eg farming, or hunting

Vastly different from over the counter purchasing of almost any gun possible

Which doesnt really seem to clash with his views.

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

The US government cannot win a war against its own citizens. You guys always think of this like it's gonna be some rednecks shooting uselessly against a tank. It's actually about human beings, and a government telling its soldiers to shoot their friends and family and communities. It's a press that will cover every child bombed by the US government. The idea that the citizenry, as well armed as it is, couldn't overthrow the government is absurd. Of course it could. And furthermore you should want a government aware of such a possibility, to ensure it serves and doesn't rule.

Well, there was this one time... Point being, it isn't like the entire citizenry would be on 'your' side of the conflict. Considering a moderator posted something along the same lines, I'm assuming this isn't considered a derail.

I want the government to serve and if through elections SCOTUS re-interprets the 2nd amendment I would hope gun owners would fall in line, considering they are law abiding citizens.

 

[mr2t]

"I complained multiple times that he was dangerous, that he didn't like blacks, women, lesbians and Jews," Gilroy told The Times on Sunday.

Mateen threatened violence in front of him, Gilroy said. Once when Mateen saw an African American man driving past, he said he wished he could kill all black people, using a racial slur, Gilroy recalled.

http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na...ken-off-a-terrorist-1465772737-htmlstory.html

 

[beast786]

His point is that the "why" is shifting and more elusive to nail down. The "How" however, is not. They are obtaining guns legally and using them to carry out their attacks.

And these are the pop culture shootings, what never gets much press is the 11,000+ gun homicide deaths per year. Throw on top of that suicides, accidents, and injury.

Both don't have to be exclusive (gun /Islam ) . In this particular tragedy motive is equally important. And we need to bring it out in open to discuss why it happen so mass can understand the Orgin . Understand that these radical don't make this up, it's part of Islamic scripture. Just saying they are not Muslim , Islam is peace is exactly the rhetoric we should avoid. And you are pro vacating just that by killing the big reason.

What do we do about the continued threat of Islamic terrorism? Cause I don't know and it seems like the entirety of the globe is caught up in a situation that we have no real answer for. Well other than the ridiculous if you label it this it is going to magically fix things.

Fine, it is radical Islam, people have been saying it forever. They just want to make sure they aren't lumping an entire subgroup of humanity into the shit pool. I really don't think that is a bad thing.

There are more than 10 Muslim country where homosexuality is punishable by death. I want you to think about it. Understand why that is and what are the root causes of it. And it will boil down to Islamic scriptures giving authority by God to kill gays. That conversation needs to happen and ideology needs to be pushed out with political pressure like the way slavery ended in Muslim countries

Sorry but this is ridiculous. No one asks for a discussion for radical whites in any of the previous shooting events. No one asked for a discussion on radical blacks after the DC Sniper.

Are you confusing ideology of Islam with (white /black). Do you even understand the difference between race/ ideology. Not understanding the difference and thinking Islam is a race is ignorantly bigot.

Islam is not a race but ideology that is backed up by scripture that runs every aspect of people life and should be obviously discussed.

 

[Royal_Phalanx]

Most of those countries, like Australia, allow access to guns only for fully licensed people who have proof of using it in a specific way eg farming, or hunting

Vastly different from over the counter purchasing of almost any gun possible

Wasn't talking of real firearms here, in this case. In those countries you can buy replicas over the counter as long as they adhere to laws on how much power they should have. Was describing guns like BB guns, pellet guns, etc.Was responding to your statement that banning those items reduced 'gun glorification'.

 

[neurosisxeno]

So we are in agreement of outright banning guns then? Because I totally am.

I don't know about a total ban, but there are definitely a lot of steps that can be taken.

That supports the argument yes

I wasn't refuting that they were legally acquired guns, just kind of adjusting where the blame was. Adam Lanza didn't go buy a few guns and then shoot up a school. His mother purchased and gave him access to said guns, despite his very troubled past. I have known for years that a majority of mass shootings are done with legally acquired guns.

 

[Chuck Norris]

There is no reason to need personal ownership of automatic rifles and high powered weaponry. Their use should be restricted to gun ranges at best

 

[neurosisxeno]

There is no reason to need personal ownership of automatic rifles and high powered weaponry. Their use should be restricted to gun ranges at best

Those have been banned for years.

 

[TheRed]

Those have been banned for years.

Yay

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

There are more than 10 Muslim country where homosexuality is punishable by death. I want you to think about it. Understand why that is and what are the root causes of it. And it will boil down to Islamic scriptures giving authority by God to kill gays. That conversation needs to happen and ideology needs to be pushed out with political pressure like the way slavery ended in Muslim countries.

Nod, I can respect that, but isn't the issue also linked to Western or not? I just think it is dangerous and hurtful to lambaste an entire religion because of ten countries. Do all the believers in those countries agree with those decisions or are they motivated to withstand out of fear?

Isn't apostasy also punishable by death in those countries, how about adultery? Those countries and those Muslims are individuals who have failed to join the 21st century, much in the same way that previous religions have failed.

How do we push them to change, what do we do about the homeland?

 

[Rudelord]

Those have been banned for years.

They're not. They're just arguably harder to get.

 

[Mecha]

The US government cannot win a war against its own citizens. You guys always think of this like it's gonna be some rednecks shooting uselessly against a tank. It's actually about human beings, and a government telling its soldiers to shoot their friends and family and communities. It's a press that will cover every child bombed by the US government. The idea that the citizenry, as well armed as it is, couldn't overthrow the government is absurd. Of course it could. And furthermore you should want a government aware of such a possibility, to ensure it serves and doesn't rule.

It's theoretically possible if all of the pieces aligned, but any attempt would be squashed in an environment like we currently have today.

 

[partyphone]

AR15s are tools of war and there's no practical need to own one. prioritising the ownership of a deadly toy over the lives of innocent people is monstrous.

 

[Royal_Phalanx]

They're not. They're just arguably harder to get.

They're grandfathered in I believe, so previous owners can still own them.

 

[FlowersisBritish]

I find it interesting the discussion here is going towards gun control. The discussion in my friend group is it being a hate crime.

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

Those have been banned for years.

Not banned, and just another person easily confused on the issue. Again though it is a rather semantic debate imo.

They're grandfathered in I believe, so previous owners can still own them.

Nope they can still be sold and transferred, just requires a lengthy and exceptionally expensive federal process.

 

[Darren870]

I feel Australian weapons law is overly restrictive, I mean, things like airsoft, paintball guns and pellet guns are banned there, wtf. Goes beyond saving lives to being an authoritarian nanny state. Are many people getting killed by those items being legal? You're even more restrictive than the UK, lol. I can still buy this stuff in the UK without a license if under a certain joule limit or something.

We also don't have cops shooting kids thinking they are holding real guns when they are in fact pellet or airsoft guns.

I don't even know why people went them anyways....

 

[Bleepey]

If he didn't have an AR-15 he would've killed 50 people with a knive...

Are you kidding me america?! Politicians blocking stricter gun regulations and the people supporting them have blood on their hands.

Every time a gun proponent argues knives are just as deadly, I wanna ask them if in a world where Obama took their guns, couldn't they defend themselves just as well with knives.

 

[Tarkus]

Those have been banned for years.

Actually in my state, all you need to do is have a clean background and file a special form with a class 3 dealer that goes to the ATF, wait about 7 months for processing and background checking, and pay about $18K-$22K for a rifle with a $200 fee for a special tag. Bam, fully automatic weapon licensed to you. A gun shop told me this last year. Major fucking problem.

 

[neurosisxeno]

Isn't apostasy also punishable by death in those countries, how about adultery? Those countries and those Muslims are individuals who have failed to join the 21st century, much in the same way that previous religions have failed.

They bend the rules for those things. It's not uncommon for women who are victims of rape to be stoned and lashed in those "developed" Muslim countries. In cases of adultery they often find a way to blame the wife for not being up to par or the mistress as some kind of seductive temptress who deserves the wrath of god. It's impressive in a way, when it's not overwhelmingly horrific.

Actually in my state, all you need to do is have a clean background and file a special form with a class 3 dealer that goes to the ATF, wait about 7 months for processing and background checking, and pay about $18K-$22K for a rifle with a $200 fee for a special tag. Bam, fully automatic weapon licensed to you. A gun shop told me this last year.

Yes. There are exceptions. But the idea is that it's prohibitively expensive. Not everyone can drop $20-30k on a tag for an automatic rifle--especially not impulsively.

 

[everyday math]

We also don't have cops shooting kids thinking they are holding real guns when they are in fact pellet or airsoft guns.

I don't even know why people went them anyways....

There actually a lot of fun. Go out and shoot some cans or targets. Iv only ever used an air soft and a BB gun.

There's quite a difference between these and what I would call true guns. Not to say someone couldn't get injured, but you aren't going on a killing spree with these. And they should have orange tips to tell police what they are. And imo they should never try to be disguised as other guns.

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

Actually in my state, all you need to do is have a clean background and file a special form with a class 3 dealer that goes to the ATF, wait about 7 months for processing and background checking, and pay about $18K-$22K for a rifle with a $200 fee for a special tag. Bam, fully automatic weapon licensed to you. A gun shop told me this last year. Major fucking problem.

Hey, this is awesome, we could do something similar for AR-15's etc. See you could still technically get your gun and it decrease their availability. Send this guy ton Congress!

Seems like the 2nd Amendment isn't absolute after all, queue shock.

 

[Chuck Norris]

Those have been banned for years.

I believe you can own an automatic rifle made before the ban, and there are plenty of them out there

 

[greatgeek]

We also don't have cops shooting kids thinking they are holding real guns when they are in fact pellet or airsoft guns.

I don't even know why people went them anyways....

It should not be legal to manufacture a pellet or airsoft gun that resemble a lethal weapon.

 

[timetokill]

Well, there was this one time... Point being, it isn't like the entire citizenry would be on 'your' side of the conflict. Considering a moderator posted something along the same lines, I'm assuming this isn't considered a derail.

I want the government to serve and if through elections SCOTUS re-interprets the 2nd amendment I would hope gun owners would fall in line, considering they are law abiding citizens.

Well, all the ones with guns would be, lol

Regardless, the moment the US military turns its weapons on its own citizens, the government has already lost.

Anyway, there's not really a way to "re-interpret" it, unless you literally change the meaning of English words. Any attempt to do so would be seen as the exact kind of reason the 2nd was implemented in the first place.

Likewise if they tried to "reinterpret" other fundamental rights in a way that basically eliminates said right.

 

[perfectchaos007]

I'm glad to see the death toll hasn't risen. Hopefully all 53 who were injured pull through

 

[mreddie]

Okay so the ex said he was mentally ill, not a zealot, and a asshole.

Oh boy, just when this was calming down til the morning.

 

[Javaman]

Not banned, and just another person easily confused on the issue. Again though it is a rather semantic debate imo.



Nope they can still be sold and transferred, just requires a lengthy and exceptionally expensive federal process.

The transfer isn't difficult or expensive ($200) but the price of the guns are. It takes about 6 months for the approvals and background checks to go through. A legal select fire m16 was around 10k last time I checked.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

The real issue in regards to this tragic event is how to revoke or suspend the second amendment rights of an American citizen suspected of having ties to known terrorists or espousing terrorist ideologies.

I understand the shock and rage at guns, but to be blunt "ban all guns!" isn't going to happen and to me is just as stupid as morons going out in the next few days and buying up as much guns and ammo as they can because they fear Emperor Obama will finally execute his executive order.

That being said I've said time and time again that each individual state will need to decide for themselves how to want to deal with it. Being Florida, honestly, I don't expect anything to change. But let's not pretend there are not states that didn't at least TRY (as poor as some of their specific policies were and as common sense as other specific policies were) to adapt their gun laws to a 21st Century w/ 2A. NY, CT, CA are examples.

That being said debating the efficiency of the rifle is mostly irrelevant to me as he could have killed as many people with a wide variety of different gun types. The key should be how to keep someone on a terror watchlist from possessing and purchasing a firearm.

I think a layer of due process should be added to those "watch-lists" this way it can be perfectly legal to block someone on a terror watchlist from obtaining a firearm.

Well, all the ones with guns would be, lol

Regardless, the moment the US military turns its weapons on its own citizens, the government has already lost.

Anyway, there's not really a way to "re-interpret" it, unless you literally change the meaning of English words. Any attempt to do so would be seen as the exact kind of reason the 2nd was implemented in the first place.

Likewise if they tried to "reinterpret" other fundamental rights in a way that basically eliminates said right.

The only way the Second Amendment goes away is once it's relegated to irrelevancy due to non-use. One could make the argument that is exactly what's happening now as less people are purchasing firearms (although they do purchase more of them). It's easy to see a time (not in out lifetime) where no one will really push back against such an endeavor since no one is really owning guns like that.

I don't agree with it, but that could be one direction the current trend leads to.

 

[Arrogant Bastard]

Well, all the ones with guns would be, lol

Regardless, the moment the US military turns its weapons on its own citizens, the government has already lost.

Anyway, there's not really a way to "re-interpret" it, unless you literally change the meaning of English words. Any attempt to do so would be seen as the exact kind of reason the 2nd was implemented in the first place.

Likewise if they tried to "reinterpret" other fundamental rights in a way that basically eliminates said right.

You'd think so, but you would be wrong. Don't forget there are plenty of liberals in Texas, etc.

I fear derailing, but that sure does spark my interest in regards to your thoughts on the Civil War, considering they turned their weapons against their own citizens, no? Best to leave this one.

We will have to agree to disagree, the entirety of the Columbia v. Heller was a case of arguing the meaning of words and phrases. Hell, the vast majority of decisions that have conceptually changed America have been just that. Best regards.

The transfer isn't difficult or expensive ($200) but the price of the guns are. A legal select fire m16 was around 10k last time I checked.

Nod, understood, it came out poorly, I've looked it up a few times. History by trade and all, enjoy looking at a great deal of it.

 

[bodyboarder]

I feel Australian weapons law is overly restrictive, I mean, things like airsoft, paintball guns and pellet guns are banned there, wtf. Goes beyond saving lives to being an authoritarian nanny state. Are many people getting killed by those items being legal? You're even more restrictive than the UK, lol. I can still buy this stuff in the UK without a license if under a certain joule limit or something.

Worth it.

 

[trembli0s]

The real issue in regards to this tragic event is how to revoke or suspend the second amendment rights of an American citizen suspected of having ties to known terrorists or espousing terrorist ideologies.

I understand the shock and rage at guns, but to be blunt "ban all guns!" isn't going to happen and to me is just as stupid as morons going out in the next few days and buying up as much guns and ammo as they can because they fear Emperor Obama will finally execute his executive order.

That being said I've said time and time again that each individual state will need to decide for themselves how to want to deal with it. Being Florida, honestly, I don't expect anything to change. But let's not pretend there are not states that didn't at least TRY (as poor as some of their specific policies were and as common sense as other specific policies were) to adapt their gun laws to a 21st Century w/ 2A. NY, CT, CA are examples.

That being said debating the efficiency of the rifle is mostly irrelevant to me as he could have killed as many people with a wide variety of different gun types. The key should be how to keep someone on a terror watchlist from possessing and purchasing a firearm.

I think a layer of due process should be added to those "watch-lists" this way it can be perfectly legal to block someone on a terror watchlist from obtaining a firearm.

This is where I am as well.

 

[perfectchaos007]

The real issue in regards to this tragic event is how to revoke or suspend the second amendment rights of an American citizen suspected of having ties to known terrorists or espousing terrorist ideologies.

I understand the shock and rage at guns, but to be blunt "ban all guns!" isn't going to happen and to me is just as stupid as morons going out in the next few days and buying up as much guns and ammo as they can because they fear Emperor Obama will finally execute his executive order.

That being said I've said time and time again that each individual state will need to decide for themselves how to want to deal with it. Being Florida, honestly, I don't expect anything to change. But let's not pretend there are not states that didn't at least TRY (as poor as some of their specific policies were and as common sense as other specific policies were) to adapt their gun laws to a 21st Century w/ 2A. NY, CT, CA are examples.

That being said debating the efficiency of the rifle is mostly irrelevant to me as he could have killed as many people with a wide variety of different gun types. The key should be how to keep someone on a terror watchlist from possessing and purchasing a firearm.

I think a layer of due process should be added to those "watch-lists" this way it can be perfectly legal to block someone on a terror watchlist from obtaining a firearm.

I think we should ban the public from buying AR's. They aren't used for hunting, and they are overkill for self defense. They serve no purpose other than causing mass human casualties from my prespective

 

[SaganIsGOAT]

I feel Australian weapons law is overly restrictive, I mean, things like airsoft, paintball guns and pellet guns are banned there, wtf. Goes beyond saving lives to being an authoritarian nanny state. Are many people getting killed by those items being legal? You're even more restrictive than the UK, lol. I can still buy this stuff in the UK without a license if under a certain joule limit or something.

Find new hobbies. There's millions of other hobbies to pick up. It's not that hard.

 

[manfestival]

It is pretty unreal to be at events today to hear my friends talk about those that were close to them that lost their lives this morning. Even those that are waiting to hear back about others. So far I don't know anyone that was involved as far as I am aware but it is so sad seeing my friends suffer like this

 

[GK86]

Saw it on Instagram.

 

[Laieon]

Find new hobbies. There's millions of other hobbies to pick up. It's not that hard.

This is how I feel too. You want to shoot something? Buy a camera.