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Mass shooting at Orlando gay nightclub [50 dead, 53 injured]

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Is this narrative of martyrdom in the Muslim world. You die fighting against sin, or a sinner, you are automatically guaranteed a place in heaven with all your own past sins forgiven.

One thing I've noticed is that Jihadists who have committed acts of terror in the West have all had various backgrounds (i.e. violent history, police records, drug abuse), religiosity and motives. These are not Imams or preachers on the street thinking they had spoken to God before going on a killing spree. But what they do all have in common is an acceptance that martyrdom is the solution to whatever their problem is.
 
These sort of incidents will unfortunately happen again in the future. The real question is how society responds to it. The fact that he was a US citizen rather than a foreigner will make for interesting politics following the suggestions to ban Muslim immigration into the country. What is Trump going to suggest now? Internment camps?

Then when all muslims are concentrated in camps, some mental case will commit a massacre again, like before terrorism. Then all mental nuts will go to camps. And so on and so an, just as long as americas quran, aka the 2nd amendment isnt touched and talked upon.
 
Really hope all of the wounded survive.

This is such a tragedy but sadly you know right the Republicans and their NRA masters will ensure no new gun laws are brought to restrict access to firearms.
 
Where did I say it's not guns? My problem is how anti-lgbt rhetoric doesn't factor an iota into you peoples silly binary arguments.

Because unlike anti-LGBT and radical Islam, gun control is thing we can tackle and solve here. We've a plethora of modernized countries to look forward to in both gun regulations and outright banning of guns.
 
Where did I say it's not guns? My problem is how anti-lgbt rhetoric doesn't factor an iota into you peoples silly binary arguments.

Religion is a HUGE source of anti-lgbt rhetoric and a respected one. I thought the arguments about the influence of religious ideology subsumed your point.

But I agree. It is a huge problem that people can so freely say that gays need to die that politicians don't fear to be seen with a man who expoused those views. It's tacit support. You think they'd even stand next to someone who called for the death of Jews?
 
Because unlike anti-LGBT and radical Islam, gun control is thing we can tackle and solve here. We've a plethora of modernized countries to look forward to in both gun regulations and outright banning of guns.

I really don't understand why so many people are convinced that you cannot do anything against hateful and stupid ideas. Humanity does this all the time and has done so since the first monkey fell from a tree and called himself man. Our entire progress is based on the fact that people change their minds over time when better ideas are offered and argued for. It takes time and it is not easy, but it happens all the time. Just look, for instance, at the insanely fast progress in gay-rights over the last decades, the quick and through denazification of Nazi Germany, or the ongoing secularization of Europe.

The first step is to talk honestly and constructively about facts and issues, and not let partisan politics, far-right idiots, and ideological blindness dominate the debate. Something which too many public figures are still reluctant to do.
 
Let me say this again, because I cannot stress it enough. The AR-15 as sold to civilians is normally chambered in the same round as most hunting rifles and is, in fact, used primarily as a hunting weapon. Ease of use, decent scope mounts, and polymer or steel bodies can reduce wear, reduce weight, reduce recoil, reduce missed shots or misplaced ones(so the animal doesn't suffer -- also, some of those are exclusive).

It can be said, since many hunting rifles operate in the exact same way, that a hunting rifle is overkill for self-defense, too. There'sa reason why it's so popular -- and yes, it could be because of how it looks.

Similarly, the AK-47 variants that civilians may own (until recently, IIRC), are limited to semi-automatic, a gas impingement rechamber, but it's less common in hunting, cheaper overall.

The reason that the AR-15 is so popular, and in that caliber, is because of surplus brass from the military's 5.56×45mm NATO cartridges. The weight of the completed round is different, as is the power, but most hunting is varmint hunting regardless -- not deer, but coyotes, wolves, boar, and things smaller than that.

So! The ammunition is cheap because the military doesn't reuse its old brass, making the AR-15 platform a simple choice for an effective hunting rifle. Action indistinguishable from most varmint rifles chambered in .223, stopping power indistinguishable, the only real difference is accuracy beyond 300m...well, at which point the round is a lot less effective, too.

What I'm saying is that the AR-15 is a suitable hunting rifle for most applications, and is in no way overkill if the quintessential hunting rifle isn't. It just looks scarier because it looks like something the military would use(due to the military's need for weapons that last).

Now, if you know nothing about guns, it's an easy call: Ban the AR-15. But if you DO know something about guns, and especially if you are a hunter, you'd know that banning the AR-15 is adjacent to banning the still-more-commonly-used standard rifles, and those aren't able to be modified as easily for the task at hand. It also enables slippery slope arguments to be used pretty effectively, because if you ban the AR-15 -- a weapon that functions the same when fired as any rifle chambered in .223 -- you could just as easily ban said "normal" rifles.

This is why there is so much derision and distrust amongst those who normally would be pushing for stronger restrictions and background checks. It's because, in banning the AR-15, you ban something that functions the same as a rifle they could probably pick up at Walmart for an eighth of the cost.

The better option, I think, would be restricting the types of chambers -- for instance, I'm pretty sure you can fire .223 through a 5.56x45mm chambered rifle, but not the other way around...unless you really like shrapnel, anyway. Reducing the availability of more powerful (read: heavier grain) ammunition would sufficiently limit its effectiveness in...this sort of thing, without doing the same for self-defense or varmint hunting.

.223 is not as powerful, and .308, used for deer hunting, is a powerful round mostly limited to bolt action rifles because of its length, and requirement for accuracy(requiring a longer barrel with different rifling, which also means it's harder to use anywhere in close quarters). Not many AR-15s with a round that powerful, and while they exist, they're also somewhere around 50% and higher more expensive, which limits its demand, too, before you even get to the fact that there's next to no aftermarket parts for them, only proprietary OEM.

On that topic, magazine capacity could also be legislated for rifles alone -- for a .223 rifle, it's possible to use a larger capacity magazine, and the AR-15 itself is no different. Dropping that down to 5 should be sufficient for hunting while also limiting its effectiveness outside of it. Some hunters, I'm sure, will grumble, but it's not drastically reducing their effectiveness. This also neatly ties up an active shooter situation should they be using the literally-any-.223-chambered-rifle-with-extended-magazines that they COULD be using, again, for cheaper than the cheapest AR-15.

So much sense in this post. It is pretty much what has happened here in the UK. You can still buy rifles to hunt (providing you either have the land yourself or access to it) but you can't buy any firearm with the capacity necessary to commit mass slaughter in an enclosed space. At worst, you would get off 5 shots before being overpowered.

You will never ban guns entirely. That seems unreasonable to even an outsider living in one of the strictest gun-controlled countries in the world. What you should never have, is a situation where an armed policeman, is outgunned by someone owning a legally purchased weapon with a high capacity.
 
Which is why his wife and father have described him as not religious at all in the slightest, right?

Cmon.

Actually in the west often the most extreme muslims are those who recently converted or reclaimed their faiths. Those guys in France last year? They were drinking beer and smoking weed a year before attacks.

I imagine that if you're devout believer you're much harder to be manipulated into radicalization, since your knowledge of that religon is much more robust.
 
I really don't understand why so many people are convinced that you cannot do anything against hateful and stupid ideas. Humanity does this all the time and has done so since the first monkey fell from a tree and called himself man. Our entire progress is based on the fact that people change their minds over time when better ideas are offered and argued for. It takes time and it is not easy, but it happens all the time. Just look, for instance, at the insanely fast progress in gay-rights over the last decades, the quick and through denazification of Nazi Germany, or the ongoing secularization of Europe.

The first step is to talk honestly and constructively about facts and issues, and not let partisan politics, far-right idiots, and ideological blindness dominate the debate. Something which too many public figures are still reluctant to do.

I really don't understand why we are attempting to attack ideology and disregarding the lack of gun control in this nation. The weapons used in this massacre, past massacres, future massacres, don't have an ideology. They're tools, devoid of conscience, far-too dangerous for the average citizen to possess.
 
I really don't understand why we are attempting to attack ideology and disregarding the lack of gun control in this nation. The weapons used in this massacre, past massacres, future massacres, don't have an ideology. They're tools, devoid of conscience, far-too dangerous for the average citizen to possess.

Society can tackle multiple issues at the time when multiple issues are involved. I see no reason why this should not be possible.
 
Sure, but that's not "no guns".
No guns in Japan or Singapore.

21 guns per person in Australia was a lot higher than I was expecting, considering you can't get them anywhere (that I know of anyway).

Regardless, nobody besides farmers or rec hunters owns a gun and noone carries one in public. Like zilch. That's the point im trying to make. Would be totally weird if someone was carrying one.
 
Society can tackle multiple issues at the time when multiple issues are involved. I see no reason why this should not be possible.

Apparently, because we had 2 fucking decades to tackle gun control in the US before radical ideology became an issue. 1999 we had Columbine, 2007 we had Virginia Tech, 2013 we had Sandy Hook, 2015 we had San Bernardino, June 10, 2016 we had a single-target shooting in Orlando, Florida, June 12, 2016 we had the greatest shooting massacre in Orlando, Florida.

2 decades we have had to discuss gun control and nothing came out of it yet. But sure the US can handle more complicated issues like anti-LGBT and radical religion at the same time. My faith is this country is about the same level as my lack of faith in religion.
 
Aside from the terrible tragedy this was, I can't help but feel the following:

- He was likely a homosexual himself who struggled greatly with it and his opposing religious beliefs

- The FBI, local law enforcement, fucking someone, should have done more. I know it's a slippery slope and I don't want to hop on some kind of Trump supporter hate wagon, but when a person is flagged twice for religious extremism (any religion) in today's day and age, maybe they should be put on some kind of list that prevents them from owning weapons - in the least. Damn what a slippery slope though - especially how easy it is for states to mold definitions.

I don't know what to do. It's a fucked up world. I feel bad for all of the victims' families.
 
It's plain obvious again the problem with Islamic scripture.

"If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for Allah is Oft-returning, Most Merciful."
Quran 4:16


"And (remember) Lut: behold, he said to his people: "Ye do commit lewdness, such as no people in Creation (ever) committed before you. "Do ye indeed approach men, and cut off the highway?- and practise wickedness (even) in your councils?" But his people gave no answer but this: they said: "Bring us the Wrath of Allah if thou tellest the truth." He said: "O my Lord! help Thou me against people who do mischief!" When Our Messengers came to Abraham with the good news, they said: "We are indeed going to destroy the people of this township: for truly they are (addicted to) crime."
Qur'an 29:28"

Hadith

"Narated By Abdullah ibn Abbas : The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: If you find anyone doing as Lot's people did, kill the one who does it, and the one to whom it is done.
Abu Dawud 38:4447"


To be clear , as I have said before the discussion isn't one broad stroke of all Muslim . This is about scripture and the difference in how now Christians see the Old Testament and how in Islam vast majority believe as Quran exact word of God and exactly how to govern society and live, while Hadith are perfect example of life of prophet.

If you can understand that difference you will understand the mentality of these attackers

Here is a great video to understand my point

https://youtu.be/pSPvnFDDQHk

The weirdest thing to me is that people still want to follow 2000 year old books like this to the letter of the law and then forget the most important thing that religion is really supposed to be teaching us, to love one another. It's just ridiculous.
 
Sure, but that's not "no guns".
No guns in Japan or Singapore.

Japan has guns. So does Singapore.

That's not the point though. All these countries (Japan, AUS, UK. Canada etc etc) all have very restrictive gun laws. Multiple checks are done, almost most guns are used for target shooting or hunting.

Also you can't just get a gun that can hold magazines. Majority of guns are shotguns or rifles. Sure there are still guns, but it's nothing like that of the US.
 
Aside from the terrible tragedy this was, I can't help but feel the following:

- He was likely a homosexual himself who struggled greatly with it and his opposing religious beliefs

- The FBI, local law enforcement, fucking someone, should have done more. I know it's a slippery slope and I don't want to hop on some kind of Trump supporter hate wagon, but when a person is flagged twice for religious extremism (any religion) in today's day and age, maybe they should be put on some kind of list that prevents them from owning weapons - in the least. Damn what a slippery slope though - especially how easy it is for states to mold definitions.

I don't know what to do. It's a fucked up world. I feel bad for all of the victims' families.
Yes, they should be on a list. The republicans and the NRA however see that as a threath to gun rights. So they voted against it.
 
Believing a word this guy's family says at a time like this, with this spotlight, seems extremely gullible.

I dont excuse this bastards actions, but I won't hold his family accountable until proven guilty.

Should I assume the families of any criminal are in cahoots or just as guilty?
 
He was likely a homosexual himself who struggled greatly with it and his opposing religious beliefs

I don't agree with the notion that people who hate homosexuals have latent homosexual feelings themselves. I think its possible for straight people to hate gay people as good as anybody.
 
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Fuck...
I'm sorry if this has been asked already or if it's really sensitive matter (in which case please ignore) but do we know if the guy sending these texts to her mom died?

It broke my heart when I saw the video about this earlier.
 
IGN's comic/movies editor Joshua Yehl lost his BFF

https://twitter.com/JoshuaYehl/status/742239109863723008 said:
Just got the unbearable news that my best friend Drew was among those killed at Pulse.

RIP
 
On a side note, mass surveillance is doing a bang up job preventing this sort of thing from happening isn't it? Both the Boston bombers and this guy were known to the FBI but they still failed to stop an attack. The whole defense for mass surveillance was for it to stop things like this. The only "terror plots" that FBI is stopping are the ones they create and fund themselves. Snowden was right in that recent Vice interview, they're collecting so much it renders them ineffective.
And this thread has " almost" 1000 pages.
Again, some of you need to upgrade your posts per page!
 
People that want to blame inanimate objects for killing people aren't getting to the root of the problem. I'm a gun owner. I'm ok with stricter gun laws. The government can check my background as much as they want. I'm ok with it. I'll go through all the training in the world. I don't care. The law abiding gun owners that I know would likely do the same. Do you really think stricter gun laws are going to stop people from wanting to kill other people?


There are groups of people in the world that want to see us dead. That is their goal. They don't get up in the morning, turn on the news, bring their kids to school, go to work, come home, turn on the tv for a little while, watch the news again, talk to their spouse about their day, log on to Neogaf, figure out how many guns each American owns, then go to bed. They wake up and go to sleep with one goal in mind: to one day kill us. They think we are evil and for some, there is no reasoning with them. And they are fucking patient. And some of them live among us right now.

Think about your goal in life. Think about something that you would do anything to accomplish. It might be losing weight, starting a new business, going back to school. Think about how hard you would work to achieve that goal. Think about everything you would sacrifice to reach that goal. Would you kill yourself to reach that goal? These terrorists' goals are to kill us and yes, they would kill themselves to kill us. This is a fact.

If someone wants something bad enough, they will do anything to reach that goal. You take away one avenue, they will find another. You can take Norco 5/325 and make it a schedule 2 controlled substance and that opioid addict will turn to heroin. That is a fact. That is an example of what a person will do to reach their goals when their mind is set on something. Guy wants to open a business and isn't able to get financing from Bank A, he goes to Bank B if he wants it bad enough. He doesn't say "aw fuck it, Bank A is off the table, guess I'm not doing this", no if the guy is driven enough he does whatever it takes to get his business started. This happens in everyday life.

Black, white, gay, straight, it doesn't matter. If they don't use guns, they will use other methods and they have already used other inanimate objects to kill Americans. It has already happened with 9/11. This is a fact. This guy was interviewed by the FBI multiple times and the investigation was dropped.


I will concede that a gun does make it more efficient for someone to carry out horrible tragedies like we witnessed early Sunday morning than something like knives or crossbows. We cannot just pass a bunch of laws and think that we have this covered, because we won't. These people aren't like you and me where if something is against the law, we don't do it. These people don't give a shit about our laws.


Edit:

By the way, The Pulse bar was a gun free zone. Like I said, terrorists don't give a shit about rules and laws.
 
People that want to blame inanimate objects for killing people aren't getting to the root of the problem. I'm a gun owner. I'm ok with stricter gun laws. The government can check my background as much as they want. I'm ok with it. I'll go through all the training in the world. I don't care. The law abiding gun owners that I know would likely do the same. Do you really think stricter gun laws are going to stop people from wanting to kill other people?


There are groups of people in the world that want to see us dead. That is their goal. They don't get up in the morning, turn on the news, bring their kids to school, go to work, come home, turn on the tv for a little while, watch the news again, talk to their spouse about their day, log on to Neogaf, figure out how many guns each American owns, then go to bed. They wake up and go to sleep with one goal in mind: to one day kill us. They think we are evil and for some, there is no reasoning with them. And they are fucking patient. And some of them live among us right now.

Think about your goal in life. Think about something that you would do anything to accomplish. It might be losing weight, starting a new business, going back to school. Think about how hard you would work to achieve that goal. Think about everything you would sacrifice to reach that goal. Would you kill yourself to reach that goal? These terrorists' goals are to kill us and yes, they would kill themselves to kill us. This is a fact.

If someone wants something bad enough, they will do anything to reach that goal. You take away one avenue, they will find another. You can take Norco 5/325 and make it a schedule 2 controlled substance and that opioid addict will turn to heroin. That is a fact. That is an example of what a person will do to reach their goals when their mind is set on something. Guy wants to open a business and isn't able to get financing from Bank A, he goes to Bank B if he wants it bad enough. He doesn't say "aw fuck it, Bank A is off the table, guess I'm not doing this", no if the guy is driven enough he does whatever it takes to get his business started. This happens in everyday life.

Black, white, gay, straight, it doesn't matter. If they don't use guns, they will use other methods and they have already used other inanimate objects to kill Americans. It has already happened with 9/11. This is a fact. This guy was interviewed by the FBI multiple times and the investigation was dropped.


I will concede that a gun does make it more efficient for someone to carry out horrible tragedies like we witnessed early Sunday morning than something like knives or crossbows. We cannot just pass a bunch of laws and think that we have this covered, because we won't. These people aren't like you and me where if something is against the law, we don't do it. These people don't give a shit about our laws.

Nobody with half a brain is saying banning guns will rid us of terrorism and mass shootings. People arguing for gun control (which isn't necessarily a full out ban) are doing so because it'll reduce the amount of carnage, as you yourself pointed out. Would there really be 50 dead and 53 injured had the terrorist had a hunting rifle? A knife?

edit: in case you hadn't heard of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chenpeng_Village_Primary_School_stabbing This happened hours before Sandy Hook. 24 stabbed, zero dead.
 
goddam it, the world lost so much colour in just 2 days. It's gotten so much darker here. can't believe how sad I got over this and Christina's murder..
 
Nobody with half a brain is saying banning guns will rid us of terrorism and mass shootings. People arguing for gun control (which isn't necessarily a full out ban) are doing so because it'll reduce the amount of carnage, as you yourself pointed out. Would there really be 50 dead and 53 injured had the terrorist had a hunting rifle? A knife?

edit: in case you hadn't heard of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chenpeng_Village_Primary_School_stabbing This happened hours before Sandy Hook. 24 stabbed, zero dead.

Exactly. It's the very nature of the weapon and the amount of damage potential.

You can kill a person with a bomb or a baseball bat. Guess which has more potential to kill multiple people in a shorter time frame?
 
Nobody with half a brain is saying banning guns will rid us of terrorism and mass shootings. People arguing for gun control (which isn't necessarily a full out ban) are doing so because it'll reduce the amount of carnage, as you yourself pointed out. Would there really be 50 dead and 53 injured had the terrorist had a hunting rifle? A knife?

edit: in case you hadn't heard of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chenpeng_Village_Primary_School_stabbing This happened hours before Sandy Hook. 24 stabbed, zero dead.

The largest mass murder at a school in the US was done with homemade bombs. It's definitely more convenient to use guns, but there are far deadlier methods terrorists will fall back on if access to guns is impossible.

What restricting access to guns will do is reduce the amount of spur-of-the-moment homicides. I don't think this is something we can really ignore.
 
The largest mass murder at a school in the US was done with homemade bombs. It's definitely more convenient to use guns, but there are far deadlier methods terrorists will fall back on if access to guns is impossible.

What restricting access to guns will do is reduce the amount of spur-of-the-moment homicides. I don't think this is something we can really ignore.

Oh, there are clearly more efficient tools than guns (think planes...), but semi-auto assault rifles are deadly. The AR-15 felt easier than a video game when I tried it.

I didn't bring up spur-of-the-moment homicides (and suicides!) because this didn't feel like the thread for it, but that is clearly the big win when it comes to gun control. That and gun accidents.
 
People that want to blame inanimate objects for killing people aren't getting to the root of the problem. I'm a gun owner. I'm ok with stricter gun laws. The government can check my background as much as they want. I'm ok with it. I'll go through all the training in the world. I don't care. The law abiding gun owners that I know would likely do the same. Do you really think stricter gun laws are going to stop people from wanting to kill other people?
People have wanted to kill people since there's been people. There's no hope of preventing that entirely so all we can do is limit the possible damage they can cause. There are a number of things we can and should do on this front, since we should be doing everything to work towards that goal. One way is stricter gun laws. It's not the only way, but it's certainly a way that should be implemented since this isn't an either / or situation. It also happens to be also the easiest way of limiting the damage.
 
Nobody with half a brain is saying banning guns will rid us of terrorism and mass shootings. People arguing for gun control (which isn't necessarily a full out ban) are doing so because it'll reduce the amount of carnage, as you yourself pointed out. Would there really be 50 dead and 53 injured had the terrorist had a hunting rifle? A knife?

edit: in case you hadn't heard of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chenpeng_Village_Primary_School_stabbing This happened hours before Sandy Hook. 24 stabbed, zero dead.

I agree with you. It's the people without half a brain that I'm worried about.
 
Disgusting. Trying to hide behind religion to justify your sick mind and unhumane actions.
To be fair, it's not like religiously motivated hate crimes are unheard of. No need to spare religion any heat when it has a positively ancient track record of spurring wildly misguided people to violence.

Obviously it's fucking insane to use this event to push a Trump-esque anti-Muslim agenda. Admitting that religion encourages violence isn't remotely the same as calling all religious people dangerous.
 
Oh, there are clearly more efficient tools than guns (think planes...), but semi-auto assault rifles are deadly. The AR-15 felt easier than a video game when I tried it.

I didn't bring up spur-of-the-moment homicides (and suicides!) because this didn't feel like the thread for it, but that is clearly the big win when it comes to gun control. That and gun accidents.

Obviously guns are deadly and aren't tremendously hard to use, but that's not really an argument.

Think back to the shooting in that Colorado movie theater. The gunman had an advanced knowledge of explosives, and you could conceivably argue that had the guy not had access to firearms (which he considered the most "glorious" option) it would have been far worse. His apartment was absolutely full of explosives, and they had to evacuate the entire building he lived in and five surrounding buildings.

Spur-of-the-moment and the like are by far the most convincing argument for gun control. Mass murders are going to be a tragic reality so long as the US has a garbage mental health system (and is viewed as a prime target by radicals).
 
On a side note, mass surveillance is doing a bang up job preventing this sort of thing from happening isn't it? Both the Boston bombers and this guy were known to the FBI but they still failed to stop an attack. The whole defense for mass surveillance was for it to stop things like this. The only "terror plots" that FBI is stopping are the ones they create and fund themselves. Snowden was right in that recent Vice interview, they're collecting so much it renders them ineffective.

Again, some of you need to upgrade your posts per page!

There are always bound to be cases that slip through the net unfortunately. There will be thousands of cases that are successfully prevented, but we are unlikely to hear about all of them.
 
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