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[Moosichu]

Far more undemocratic? The thing is, we know the HoL is undemocratic, which is why it has such residual power. The HoR can ram things through the HoL if it wishes, and the powers of the HoL to legislate are rather limited. It's mainly a review chamber. I don't like the HoL either, but pretending it's worse than the EU is ridiculous.

The EU has unfettered power to legislate on certain competencies and there is zero recompense. You can not vote for a new EU parliament because the unelected EU Commission has to initiate the repeal.

As for FPTP, saying that it's undemocratic is ludicrous. You might prefer a more proportional system, and that's fine, there are good arguments to be had...but there is still a direct link between voting an election of a representative.

I never said FPTP was undemocratic, but just that if we consider the EU to be less democratic than we would like, the UK government is arguably more so.

The EU commission is appointed by countries, so it's defo better than HoL in the regard that at least it's not for life, and you don't get into the commission by being a bishop.

 

[avaya]

Morgan Stanley Equities today - expecting FTSE100 to drop >14% if vote is to leave

More than half a trillion wiped out in value.

 

[Ravensmash]

Morgan Stanley Equities today - expecting FTSE100 to drop >14% if vote is to leave

More than half a trillion wiped out in value.

Markets go up, markets go down. We'll be fine.

I don't believe the above, I've just resigned myself to thinking Brexit will happen now.

 

[avaya]

GOLDMAN have told most front office that their jobs will be moved to Madrid/Frankfurt from Fleet Street. Internal memo.

BNP moving back to Paris too in internal memos.

I'm sure the city will be fine guys. Totes fine.

 

[anonymous_abc]

GOLDMAN have told most front office that their jobs will be moved to Madrid/Frankfurt from Fleet Street. Internal memo.

BNP moving back to Paris too in internal memos.

I'm sure the city will be fine guys. Totes fine.

Their loss, they will be missing out on that Great British Empire and the Commonwealth of Nations....

 

[Mr. Sam]

In the event of Brexit, the investments I've made over the last few months will be fuuucked. I suppose I'm to blame for such short-sightedness.

 

[Frankfurter]

This is all just scare tactics. Vote leave because it's the safer option LOL.

 

[milanbaros]

In the event of Brexit, the investments I've made over the last few months will be fuuucked. I suppose I'm to blame for such short-sightedness.

If we vote remain FTSE is going to soar though.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

According to a recent Ipsos Mori poll, the economy isn't the most important issue to voters - it's fallen into second place behind immigration. People also simply don't believe Dave and George when it comes to their claims about the economy (for example, 70% of people think Osborne's projected £4300 drop in household income is a lie). Remain would be better off changing tack.

 

[anonymous_abc]

According to a recent Ipsos Mori poll, the economy isn't the most important issue to voters - it's fallen into second place behind immigration. People also simply don't believe Dave and George when it comes to their claims about the economy (for example, 70% of people think Osborne's projected £4300 drop in household income is a lie). Remain would be better off changing tack.

Hasn't this been self evident in recent weeks that it's not the economy which is driving debate?

 

[Deleted member 231381]

According to a recent Ipsos Mori poll, the economy isn't the most important issue to voters - it's fallen into second place behind immigration. People also simply don't believe Dave and George when it comes to their claims about the economy (for example, 70% of people think Osborne's projected £4300 drop in household income is a lie). Remain would be better off changing tack.

I don't think people believe Cameron or Osborne regardless. Labour voters don't, Conservative voters often don't, UKIP voters definitely don't. The best thing those two could do would be to disappear for the rest of the campaign. Get non-politicians to do the campaigning - NHS doctors, SME owners, etc.

 

[EdwardTivrusky]

Hasn't this been self evident in recent weeks that it's not the economy which is driving debate?

Yeah, to me it's been all about "The Others" and it's made me ashamed and disillusioned about the a large number of the people and politics in this country. I knew we had a massive amount of bigots and racists but i thought they'd calmed down a bit but this whole referendum has just stirred it all back to the surface. It's one of the shittiest things i've had the misfortune to see the country go through in a long while.

Sorry but it's just seemed like amateur hour all around and it's depressing me

 

[PJV3]

GOLDMAN have told most front office that their jobs will be moved to Madrid/Frankfurt from Fleet Street. Internal memo.

BNP moving back to Paris too in internal memos.

I'm sure the city will be fine guys. Totes fine.

More space already, vote leave.

 

[Arksy]

I never said FPTP was undemocratic, but just that if we consider the EU to be less democratic than we would like, the UK government is arguably more so.

The EU commission is appointed by countries, so it's defo better than HoL in the regard that at least it's not for life, and you don't get into the commission by being a bishop.

HoL is appointed by the govt. Regardless, you haven't addressed the fact that it has significantly more power, which is the bigger issue.

 

[avaya]

If we vote remain FTSE is going to soar though.

Yeah, should have added that. FTSE is basically a binary 15% up or down. Not only MS saying that, that's consensus on the street. That's not propaganda by the way, these people are advisory for the buyside.

We are hitting the circuit breakers either way.

The number of investors who are in total disbelief that we are on the verge of committing suicide I've lost count.

We were at a BNP conference in Paris on Wednesday, Macron, Frenxh economy minister and likely next President, was speaking at one of the plenary sessions. Made it clear that the aim for the Eurogroup at Brexit is to send a very strong signal to others in the bloc that you will not get shit if you leave. Screws to be put on. "It will be tough for the UK".

 

[QuicheFontaine]

Hasn't this been self evident in recent weeks that it's not the economy which is driving debate?

Well yes, but I still think it's interesting that that poll shows movement - economy was top, it's now dropped down.

I don't think people believe Cameron or Osborne regardless. Labour voters don't, Conservative voters often don't, UKIP voters definitely don't. The best thing those two could do would be to disappear for the rest of the campaign. Get non-politicians to do the campaigning - NHS doctors, SME owners, etc.

True, it's not just on the economy. The same poll says that the public don't believe Cameron's claims about reduced peace and stability either.

 

[Maledict]

Yep - officials at the EU commission have been saying the same for weeks now, on our side and the rest of the EUs. We are utterly fucked if this goes through - none of the lies of the Leave campaign are going to happen, the economy is going blow up, and we'll see a massive shift in financial power from London.

We are literally committing economic suicide.

 

[Ghost]

We were at a BNP conference in Paris on Wednesday, Macron, Frenxh economy minister and likely next President, was speaking at one of the plenary sessions. Made it clear that the aim for the Eurogroup at Brexit is to send a very strong signal to others in the bloc that you will not get shit if you leave. Screws to be put on. "It will be tough for the UK".

This is what annoys me about Boris/Gove and their "We'll get a great deal in no time" bullshit, why are they even being asked what kind of deal they'll get? Its EU leaders we should ask, and every single one of them I've seen has said "It will be a very tough negotiation for Britain, and over time if service jobs move into the Eurozone it will get even tougher"

But hey, good news is we won't have to waste any extra money on border controls because no one will be wanting to come here anyway.

 

[Thejackburton]

Yep - officials at the EU commission have been saying the same for weeks now, on our side and the rest of the EUs. We are utterly fucked if this goes through - none of the lies of the Leave campaign are going to happen, the economy is going blow up, and we'll see a massive shift in financial power from London.

We are literally committing economic suicide.

to build a new house, you have to burn the old one down.

 

[PJV3]

I'm pro remain but these threats from Europe are counter-productive. Democratic Nations shouldn't be screwing over other ones just to send a message.

 

[CyclopsRock]

This is what annoys me about Boris/Gove and their "We'll get a great deal in no time" bullshit, why are they even being asked what kind of deal they'll get? Its EU leaders we should ask, and every single one of them I've seen has said "It will be a very tough negotiation for Britain, and over time if service jobs move into the Eurozone it will get even tougher"

But hey, good news is we won't have to waste any extra money on border controls because no one will be wanting to come here anyway.

It's one of those unknowns though, because there is no version of reality in which the EU leaders say "they'll get a good deal" and this would be the case even if, in reality, they'd sit down at the table and say "there's no point cutting off our nose to spite our face, it's in both of our best interests to have a good deal, let's get to it." I don't think it is particularly likely that this'll happen, but they'd say what they're saying even if it were. The reasons I don't think it's likely isn't due to what they're saying.

 

[Walshicus]

More space already, vote leave.

They want Leave-ensraum!

 

[avaya]

I don't want to say it but my BBG chat has been lit this morning...consensus from our traders is that, and it's disgusting but money is money, markets rallying this morning based on expected remain boost from Jo Cox's death...just unbelievably sad.

 

[anonymous_abc]

I'm pro remain but these threats from Europe are counter-productive. Democratic Nations shouldn't be screwing over other ones just to send a message.

All the other democratic nations are doing what the UK is supposidly doing, protecting their interest in case of Brexit.

 

[Best]

Can you imagine the party if we stay in. Absolute scenes.

 

[DiGiKerot]

to build a new house, you have to burn the old one down.

It's going to be a pretty terrible, overpriced house if you can't employ cheap, efficient Polish immegrant labour to build it, though!

 

[Iokis]

Will be voting Remain although I feel there's no stopping Brexit now

The EU is simply being used as a scapegoat for a bunch of UK problems that are all home-grown. Scores of untrained and untrainable people because of the UK's consumerist attitude towards education. Gove (that Brexit-lover) was a disaster as Minister for Education, letting schools fall by the wayside and become academies and driving teachers out of the profession (or abroad) with endless pointles OFSTED inspections and red tape, on top of the fact that university is increasingly becoming the sole domain of the rich (I know I wouldn't have gone to university had it already risen to over nine thousand pounds a year). You can't get a good job without a good education, and the UK's self-made skills shortage needs to be plugged by immigration.

The NHS and other institutions are underfunded, yes, but that's because of our government aiding and abetting massive tax evasion and doggedly sticking to an austerity plan, despite any number of economists proving that austerity damages economic recovery instead of fostering it. Our other services have been privatised and sold off for far less than they're worth (Royal Mail anyone?). The country also went on far too long being totally London/SE England-centric, leading people elsewhere to feel like nothing is being done for them and that they aren't cared about at all.

The Remain campaign gets called Project Fear - yet all the Leave campaign has done is try its level best to instill fear of the other, place undue blame on immigration (and by extension, the EU, although the EU has nothing to do with the migrant crisis in Syria and elsewhere) and lead the UK to be a country governed by mistrust and suspicion.

I shudder to think how the UK will be observed by the rest of Europe - although the government has been complicit in the country reaching the state of inequality and despair its in, and the constant ignoring of ordinary people's grievances have led to a large anti-establishment sentiment fuelling Brexit, it still saddens me to see just how quickly and easily we have slipped back into basic tribalism, prejudice and ignorance.

Earlier I was angry about all this, now I just feel a little empty... Accepting the country making a disastrous decision with a heavy heart and a weary resignation.

 

[ferrasvansen]

I don't want to say it but my BBG chat has been lit this morning...consensus from our traders is that, and it's disgusting but money is money, markets rallying this morning based on expected remain boost from Jo Cox's death...just unbelievably sad.

Yeah sad but true I expect remain turnout will be massively galvanised by this tragedy, to be honest I just don't think the vote should go ahead under the current atmosphere. People need to step back reduce the angry outbursts, the threats and start being more positive. No more economy threats, immigration threats just focus on the positive arguments.

 

[avaya]

Macron was speaking at a invite only non public event for investors and corporates. They weren't interested in the politics he was asked for what he thought would happen. I wouldn't classify it as a threat but if you're a leaver it's easy to frame it as such.not helpful since the public won't take to it well but his comments in private match exactly his public statements, since the actions described as the rational choice.

 

[Trumpets]

Can you imagine the party if we leave? Absolute scenes.

Works both ways.

 

[PJV3]

All the other democratic nations are doing what the UK is supposidly doing, protecting their interest in case of Brexit.

Hmm, it's more of what happened to Greece, sending messages, teaching lessons and poisoning the well of Europe. The UK shouldn't expect favours, I shouldn't expect to be driven into the dirt by supposed allies.

 

[Best]

Works both ways.

Pensioners and 'economically challenged' people. So wild

 

[Ashes]

Morgan Stanley Equities today - expecting FTSE100 to drop >14% if vote is to leave

More than half a trillion wiped out in value.

Woodford report did say that of all the industries the financial services sector would be hardest hit in the shortterm, and that this would happen even in the best case scenario. So this isn't unexpected. However it is important to note that in the long run, the city is very resilient, and though it may lose influence in the single market, it is difficult to say whether it would not benefit in the long run too, if for example the UK sets up a free trade policy with countries it does not do so with now.

Off the record, I suspect they would say it's easier to get away with the tax avoidance stuff, away from the EU's eyes, who are building a big case it seems. Our regulator for whatever reason is a softie.

Back on the record, Woodford report says that the UK has bigger worries to think about than brexit, requiring more unity, so to my mind the whole Sun believe in Britain bull is just that.

 

[Ushojax]

Will be voting Remain although I feel there's no stopping Brexit now

The EU is simply being used as a scapegoat for a bunch of UK problems that are all home-grown. Scores of untrained and untrainable people because of the UK's consumerist attitude towards education. Gove (that Brexit-lover) was a disaster as Minister for Education, letting schools fall by the wayside and become academies and driving teachers out of the profession (or abroad) with endless pointles OFSTED inspections and red tape, on top of the fact that university is increasingly becoming the sole domain of the rich (I know I wouldn't have gone to university had it already risen to over nine thousand pounds a year). You can't get a good job without a good education, and the UK's self-made skills shortage needs to be plugged by immigration.

The NHS and other institutions are underfunded, yes, but that's because of our government aiding and abetting massive tax evasion and doggedly sticking to an austerity plan, despite any number of economists proving that austerity damages economic recovery instead of fostering it. Our other services have been privatised and sold off for far less than they're worth (Royal Mail anyone?). The country also went on far too long being totally London/SE England-centric, leading people elsewhere to feel like nothing is being done for them and that they aren't cared about at all.

The Remain campaign gets called Project Fear - yet all the Leave campaign has done is try its level best to instill fear of the other, place undue blame on immigration (and by extension, the EU, although the EU has nothing to do with the migrant crisis in Syria and elsewhere) and lead the UK to be a country governed by mistrust and suspicion.

I shudder to think how the UK will be observed by the rest of Europe - although the government has been complicit in the country reaching the state of inequality and despair its in, and the constant ignoring of ordinary people's grievances have led to a large anti-establishment sentiment fuelling Brexit, it still saddens me to see just how quickly and easily we have slipped back into basic tribalism, prejudice and ignorance.

Earlier I was angry about all this, now I just feel a little empty... Accepting the country making a disastrous decision with a heavy heart and a weary resignation.

Angry far-right groups and anti-immigrant sentiments are on the rise across Europe, this is not a UK exclusive problem. The financial crisis of 2008 and it's ramifications have destabilised the discourse and exposed huge failings in the actual society of many EU countries. Resentment towards the establishment and privileged classes has been easy to channel into far-right rhetoric, if people were living in economic conditions at pre-2008 levels, this referendum would be a non-event. Things can't get much worse for the man in the street so they feel if they sling out all the immigrants, there will be more to go around.

The biggest failure of this whole campaign has been the failure of Remain to emphasise the positive aspects of immigration. I don't think the average person is aware of how much the NHS relies on trained professionals from outside the UK. The right-wing press and the Leave campaign have succeeded in conjuring the image of a disheveled brown-skinned rapist/terrorist/benefit sponge whenever the word 'immigrant' is deployed.

 

[blazinglord]

GOLDMAN have told most front office that their jobs will be moved to Madrid/Frankfurt from Fleet Street. Internal memo.

BNP moving back to Paris too in internal memos.

I'm sure the city will be fine guys. Totes fine.

I hear what you're saying, but what makes you think that the average man or woman in the street cares about bankers in the city? There is still residual bad feeling about 'bailing out' the 'fat cats' in the last economic downturn. So hearts no longer bleed at warnings of financial contraction in the city and its consequences in the event of Brexit.

 

[avaya]

Hmm, it's more of what happened to Greece, sending messages, teaching lessons and poisoning the well of Europe. The UK shouldn't expect favours, I shouldn't expect to be driven into the dirt by supposed allies.

By voting to leave we are very much 'not an allie' economically speaking. We are the drunkard with our finger on the atomic bomb.

 

[PJV3]

By voting to leave we are very much 'not an allie' economically speaking. We are the drunkard with our finger on the atomic bomb.

I know we've gone slightly potty and are threatening to run into the road, I don't want the neighbour to deliberately run me over

 

[Best]

I hear what you're saying, but what makes you think that the average man or woman in the street cares about bankers in the city? There is still residual bad feeling about 'bailing out' the 'fat cats' in the last economic downturn. So hearts no longer bleed at warnings of financial contraction in the city and its consequences in the event of Brexit.

They don't care but they should, the City is the golden goose. What's bad for bankers is bad for the UK.

And if you don't like/trust financial services now; The only reason to stick around post Brexit will be if London becomes the world's casino. See how that works out.

 

[dealer-]

Will be voting Remain although I feel there's no stopping Brexit now

Earlier I was angry about all this, now I just feel a little empty... Accepting the country making a disastrous decision with a heavy heart and a weary resignation.

Why the weary resignation? Remain is still odds on with the bookies and they generally have a better idea then the polls. Keep the faith.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

Pensioners and 'economically challenged' people. So wild

There ain't no party like my nana's tea parties.

 

[Undead]

Pensioners and 'economically challenged' people. So wild

Pensioners aren't gonna be partying when they realise there's no money to pay their pensions if the stock market crashes.

 

[avaya]

What's most galling about this whole thing is that this very country was able to punch above its weight and do what it did for centuries because it was always driven by rational economic thought and drive for free trade. That we make decisions now based on emotion over the overiding principals of rational thought is staggering and earth shatteringly heartbreaking.

Woodford report did say that of all the industries the financial services sector would be hardest hit in the shortterm, and that this would happen even in the best case scenario. So this isn't unexpected. However it is important to note that in the long run, the city is very resilient, and though it may lose influence in the single market, it is difficult to say whether it would not benefit in the long run too, if for example the UK sets up a free trade policy with countries it does not do so with now.

Off the record, I suspect they would say it's easier to get away with the tax avoidance stuff, away from the EU's eyes, who are building a big case it seems. Our regulator for whatever reason is a softie.

Back on the record, Woodford report says that the UK has bigger worries to think about than brexit, requiring more unity, so to my mind the whole Sun believe in Britain bull is just that.

Partially agree with this except I don't think I give too much credence to the resilience of the city. The city's rise was the ability to bridge the Atlantic while being within the cradle of Europe.

The leave group said it can thrive by deregulating further which is dangerous (FWIW a lot of the US synthetic derivative chicanery was executed at the London divisions due to the Wild West style lack of regulation here). However the EU bloc is likely to retard the ability of the city to actually get away with deregulating further by requiring EU terms for free access to EU capital markets. Likely US too with TTP.

So there is no real way and outside of that we engage in a race to the bottom with other nations whose only comparative advantage is to act as a tax haven and regulation free zone. Which is quite frankly irresponsible, unattainable and unsustainable.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

The biggest failure of this whole campaign has been the failure of Remain to emphasise the positive aspects of immigration. I don't think the average person is aware of how much the NHS relies on trained professionals from outside the UK. The right-wing press and the Leave campaign have succeeded in conjuring the image of a disheveled brown-skinned rapist/terrorist/benefit sponge whenever the word 'immigrant' is deployed.

I think most reasonable people recognise the positive aspects of immigration. Leave is not anti-immigration (raising the flame shields...), it is pro- controlled immigration. EU immigration is not, and cannot be, controlled. And that's a big issue to a lot of people. We just don't have control.

As to the NHS thing, I've said it before but it bears repeating, "trained professionals from outside the UK" in that context largely refers to non-EU immigration! Doctors from Pakistan and India, nurses from the Phillipines. This constant conflation of "immigration" with "EU immigration" needs to be sorted out.

 

[Phantast2k]

I think most reasonable people recognise the positive aspects of immigration. Leave is not anti-immigration (raising the flame shields...), it is pro- controlled immigration. EU immigration is not, and cannot be, controlled. And that's a big issue to a lot of people. We just don't have control.

As to the NHS thing, I've said it before but it bears repeating, "trained professionals from outside the UK" in that context largely refers to non-EU immigration! Doctors from Pakistan and India, nurses from the Phillipines. This constant conflation of "immigration" with "EU immigration" needs to be sorted out.

Uhuh, yet Leave constantly pushes images of refugees and the Turkish invasion.

 

[uncleniccius]

I’d just like to pick up on this point, as it is kind of important and, I think, forms a big part of the justification for a Leave vote.

The argument is essentially that – regardless of immediate risks - we should take the opportunity to get out now for fear of what the EU may turn into, and that there won’t be another opportunity to do so for a long time when it will perhaps be too late.

First, any big move towards a “fucked up united Europe” will require treaty changes. Such treaty changes need unanimity of the EU member states, and to be ratified by national governments including, in the UK and some others, by referendum. There is plenty of opportunity to stop these changes if they are not right and similarly the opportunity to trigger an in/out referendum at the same time.

Second, we don’t need a further referendum to withdraw from the EU. A perfectly ordinary Parliamentary majority with a mandate will be quite sufficient. In other words, the way we do things in the UK. So, if we vote in government on a “get out of the UK” platform at any general election then we can proceed to withdraw. Nothing additional needs to be “offered”.

Third, it won’t be particularly more difficult to withdraw in the future than it is now. It is – barring big treaty changes which I’ve already covered – the big difficulties are negotiating future relations with the EU and others, and the interim approach to retaining or scrapping EU laws. The actual volume of laws involved really doesn’t affect the complexity of the withdrawal process. Actually it is the other way round – the withdrawal process would be easier if we’ve properly planned for it and voted accordingly.

So, if your reason for voting Leave now is that it’ll be too hard to do it later I suspect you are wrong. The far greater risk, because of political disagreements and lack of an agreed direction and lack of planning, lies with an immediate exit. Vote Remain.

We also don't have to be a part of any further integration regardless due to what was secured in Mastricht (an opt out) - it means we didn't have to be a part of the second stage of EMU (IE: join the Euro) and be a part of any deeper integration.

No offence to the person writing that post you replied to but it reeks of misinformation. Something which has been a common thread in this referendum. Both sides have been fucking terrible in this campaign to be honest. If I hear about Turkey joining the EU once more I might get angry. Even if they had achieved more than 1/2 of 26(?) goals, they'd no doubt be rejected as Greece would very likely veto because of Northern Cyprus.

 

[Halph n Halph]

It's going to be a pretty terrible, overpriced house if you can't employ cheap, efficient Polish immegrant labour to build it, though!

The very reason everybody I've spoken to in the construction sector is voting leave.

 

[Dambrosi]

Why the weary resignation? Leave is still odds on [to lose] with the bookies and they generally have a better idea then the polls. Keep the faith.

Hush now. Only doom and gloom allowed in this thread.

Especially due to recent events, sadly.

 

[Best]

Partially agree with this except I don't think I give too much credence to the resilience of the city. The city's rise was the ability to bridge the Atlantic while being within the cradle of Europe.

What makes this even more annoying is that this was future proofed. Time zones mean you can talk to Asia as their day ends and the US as theirs starts. If the global economy balances more towards the East, that was only going to strengthen London as the bridge between the three biggest economic areas. And we are on the verge of screwing this up for absolutely nothing.

 

[EdwardTeach]

GOLDMAN have told most front office that their jobs will be moved to Madrid/Frankfurt from Fleet Street. Internal memo.

BNP moving back to Paris too in internal memos.

I'm sure the city will be fine guys. Totes fine.

Untrue. Just speculative rumours.

 

[PJV3]

The very reason everybody I've spoken to in the construction sector is voting leave.

Do people remember how expensive plasterers were? Jesus, imagine what they would be getting by now.