Brexit |OT| UK Referendum on EU Membership - 23 June 2016

Did you vote for the side that is going to win?


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I hear what you're saying, but what makes you think that the average man or woman in the street cares about bankers in the city? There is still residual bad feeling about 'bailing out' the 'fat cats' in the last economic downturn. So hearts no longer bleed at warnings of financial contraction in the city and its consequences in the event of Brexit.

I hate this sentiment.
"It's okay if the economy collapses, it just means bankers don't get their bonuses."
"The FTSE 100 is not real money"

Bankers will still get immense bonuses after Brexit. Probably much more than they do now, since they'll be the ones claiming credit for saving their organisations billions by moving stuff to mainland Europe and shorting the pound.

We can survive global recessions and bounce back, because everyone is affected and bounces back together - but this will be localised. It's British companies that will suffer most. They might bounce back, but they'll never catch up with American companies (which won't be affected much), or European ones (which will be affected less than us).

And as for the 'not real money' argument. It's like everyone forgot that "final salary" pensions don't exist anymore*. Everything is tied to investments now. Brexit will cost people vast sums of money in their future pensions, since pretty much all pensions are heavily invested in FTSE 100 and 250 trackers.

*unless you're close to or already retired, in which case you might be fine. Maybe that's why the old people don't give a shit about fucking things up for the rest of us, though I suspect that Brexit will cause companies to "do a Phillip Green" to avoid liability for massive final salary pension deficits.
 
One of the reasons equities will get creamed on Brexit is the underlying pension liabilities for several larger UK corporates. BT for one wil be under water, very real requirement for government bailouts needed for those.

The very reason everybody I've spoken to in the construction sector is voting leave.

Turkeys voting for Christmas. Pray tell how will the demand for the sector look when overall housing demand and prices fall in a larger recession.

We used to be better than this. We used to be so much better.
 
What's most galling about this whole thing is that this very country was able to punch above its weight and do what it did for centuries because it was always driven by rational economic thought and drive for free trade. That we make decisions now based on emotion over the overiding principals of rational thought is staggering and earth shatteringly heartbreaking[ agree with this except I don't think I give too much credence to the resilience of the city. The city's rise was the ability to bridge the Atlantic while being within the cradle of Europe.

Most people understand very little about economics, so expecting rational thought is unwise. The remain campaign has been staggeringly inept at conveying both the emotional and rational reasons for staying.
 
Most people understand very little about economics, so expecting rational thought is unwise. The remain campaign has been staggeringly inept at conveying both the emotional and rational reasons for staying.

I guess it's more directed at the MPs, especially in the Conservative party. My boss used to work as a SPAD for Osborne for several years.....the stories I've heard defy belief.
 
Uhuh, yet Leave constantly pushes images of refugees and the Turkish invasion.

Refugees are a separate issue to immigration, and the EU has handled the refugee crisis poorly.

As for Turkey, they are clearly decades away from joining, but this referendum is not a short term decision. If we Remain, we are going to be staying in an EU that probably will include Turkey at some point in the future, so it is worth thinking about.
 
Refugees are a separate issue to immigration, and the EU has handled the refugee crisis poorly.

As for Turkey, they are clearly decades away from joining, but this referendum is not a short term decision. If we Remain, we are going to be staying in an EU that probably will include Turkey at some point in the future, so it is worth thinking about.

I don't see how Turkey is ever going to gain entrance into the EU. Erdogan's defiance in recent times indicates that he has realised the same thing.
 
Most people understand very little about economics, so expecting rational thought is unwise. The remain campaign has been staggeringly inept at conveying both the emotional and rational reasons for staying.

Tell me about it. I was in the Halifax last Saturday and some arsehole was ranting at the girl behind the counter "you'll still get your bonuses so you don't give a fuck if I get my money in time to pay my rent."

He honestly didn't know the difference between an investment banker and a branch cashier. He thought the poor lass was taking home £2m a year in bonuses for processing a few cheques. And he'll be voting on Thursday.
 
If Turkey continue on their current path, I can't see them ever joining the EU. Not in ten years, twenty years or even fifty years.

Not sure why that's even a worry at this point. A much more liberal Turkey is the only they'd join and if they ever reach that point of liberalisation, what's there to be worried about with them joining the EU?
 
I don't see how Turkey is ever going to gain entrance into the EU. Erdogan's defiance in recent times indicates that he has realised the same thing.

The future's an unwritten book. If you asked me in the 80's whether I thought we'd be in an economic and political union with a bunch of USSR satellite states, I'd probably say I don't see how that will ever happen. But here we are.
 
Refugees are a separate issue to immigration, and the EU has handled the refugee crisis poorly.

As for Turkey, they are clearly decades away from joining, but this referendum is not a short term decision. If we Remain, we are going to be staying in an EU that probably will include Turkey at some point in the future, so it is worth thinking about.
Turkey would have to be a very different country though. They have a long, long way to come. And Greece would likely veto. It is miles away from happening at the very least, but I'll be shocked if it does happen. I expect at least one state would veto.

Oh, and they've been trying to gain membership for like 30 years and have only accomplished one of the requirements
 
I think most reasonable people recognise the positive aspects of immigration. Leave is not anti-immigration (raising the flame shields...), it is pro- controlled immigration. EU immigration is not, and cannot be, controlled. And that's a big issue to a lot of people. We just don't have control.

As to the NHS thing, I've said it before but it bears repeating, "trained professionals from outside the UK" in that context largely refers to non-EU immigration! Doctors from Pakistan and India, nurses from the Phillipines. This constant conflation of "immigration" with "EU immigration" needs to be sorted out.

Pro-controlled immigration policy is to my mind, reactionary politics, based on fears rather than actual 'what's best for the country' politics. Admittedly when you get right down to the nitty gritty, I my self don't really have strong evidence on whether immigration on the scale we saw would lead to a net benefit overall long term; I certainly do think that free labour movement across the EU is good policy overall for the Union. I believe the ONS thinks long term immigration is good policy in regards to economic output - but I'm sure someone can correct me here.

There has been an accelerated reliance on EU for NHS professionals, simply because this and the previous government has clamped down on immigration outside the EU, but you are still correct to my mind, when you say NHS immigration largely refers to immigration from countries outside the EU.
I believe, unless somebody corrects me, NHS staff of EU origin levels are around 5%, roughly the same as the EU population as part of the UK. I think doctors are above 10% but I can't at this moment recall, where I got this figure from. If it's from some campaign leaflet, please forgive me. Anyway, I mention those figures, because 1/10th of a workforce is significant to my mind.
The recent Nurse shortage is well documented. And we're training less and less every passing year [and this arguably is national government fault]. Both of these trends suggest that we need immigration more rather than less, I repeat *need* immigration to fill a skills shortage. Brexit makes this more awkward. To my mind brexit absolutely fails here. This is one area where there is a demonstrable need for labour, and using controlled immigration policy, as we do to immigration outside the EU, shows a downward trend, hypothetically widening the gap.

Referendum politics aside, I honestly think, the Tories should really reflect on what they are doing to the NHS.

edit: As an aside, I really didn't want to talk about quality of life, because I honestly don't care for it.* Immigration effect on quality of life is hard to talk about. People tend to think the past was better; sometimes it demonstrably was [washing machines used to last a very long long time**], but on a lot of things it really wasn't for the country as a whole.***
* care to talk about it. People have already made up their minds and the climate just isn't right right now.
**first thing that came to mind.
***Yes I got into it. But I've tried to keep a lid on it. Without reference to race or multiculturalism.
 
The future's an unwritten book. If you asked me in the 80's whether I thought we'd be in an economic and political union with a bunch of USSR satellite states, I'd probably say I don't see how that will ever happen. But here we are.
True, but Turkey has been an associate member since 1963 already. They won't get anywhere close for the next 50 or 100 years if they continue in this speed. The whole thing is a political show to keep them happy a bit for when the EU needs them and because of economic ties.

And even if you are against them joining, having the talks open and having them going through steps to try and become a member is a good thing for the people of Turkey, since it requires the state to pass certain requirements that would benefit their people.
 
As for Turkey, they are clearly decades away from joining, but this referendum is not a short term decision. If we Remain, we are going to be staying in an EU that probably will include Turkey at some point in the future, so it is worth thinking about.

Okay, you're voting Leave to avoid being in the EU when this hypothetical future situation comes about, so let's explore this hypothetical situation further:

Tell me the process by which Turkey meets the necessary requirements in order to join the EU which still leaves them - in your eyes - unacceptable to join the EU.

Let's not talk about Turkey now, because Turkey now ain't getting in. Let's talk about the Turkey that *could* get in in your imagined future, and tell me why that's not okay.
 
Do people remember how expensive plasterers were? Jesus, imagine what they would be getting by now.

Get that loft conversion done now people!

Reminds me of a joke that seems to be going viral on my Facebook.

"Shocking scenes as Polish fans run amok at Euro 2016. French police report bars being renovated and several police cars were thoroughly valeted."

Seriously though, the construction industry will suffer more than most if we leave. British workers will get a larger slice of a smaller pie. And it'll suck for British people who actually purchase construction work.
 
Tell me about it. I was in the Halifax last Saturday and some arsehole was ranting at the girl behind the counter "you'll still get your bonuses so you don't give a fuck if I get my money in time to pay my rent."

He honestly didn't know the difference between an investment banker and a branch cashier. He thought the poor lass was taking home £2m a year in bonuses for processing a few cheques. And he'll be voting on Thursday.

Fucking hell. =/

GODDAMN YOU FATCAT BANKERS.
 
Get that loft conversion done now people!

Reminds me of a joke that seems to be going viral on my Facebook.

"Shocking scenes as Polish fans run amok at Euro 2016. French police report bars being renovated and several police cars were thoroughly valeted."

Seriously though, the construction industry will suffer more than most if we leave. British workers will get a larger slice of a smaller pie. And it'll suck for British people who actually purchase construction work.

Irony of ironies, housing shortage requires construction workers. And instead of opening up the doors, we're putting caps on it.
 
Okay, you're voting Leave to avoid being in the EU when this hypothetical future situation comes about, so let's explore this hypothetical situation further:

That's not why I'm voting Leave, but ok.

Tell me the process by which Turkey meets the necessary requirements in order to join the EU which still leaves them - in your eyes - unacceptable to join the EU.

Where did I say that? Come on man, don't put words in my mouth. (Edit: wait, I think I just read your post wrong here, sorry)

Let's not talk about Turkey now, because Turkey now ain't getting in. Let's talk about the Turkey that *could* get in in your imagined future, and tell me why that's not okay.

Well alright. Firstly, I don't think the EU should be expanding at all. Even the leaders of the EU accept this - that too many countries have joined recently in too short a period of time - and so expansion is off the agenda for the time being. But I guess hypothetically we're talking at least 50 years down the road so maybe it's back on the agenda at that point. I think I'd still be against it. I don't think living standards / monthly wage would have substantially equalised over the existing bloc by that point, and I don't think new countries should be added until that happens. In any case, I'm simply against the expansion of the EU generally.

I'd also need to know a few more things that I can't possibly know at this point. What's the population of future Turkey? Would it be the most populous country if it joined? Would it have the most MEPs? Does it still border a bunch of failed states in the middle east? If the answer to some or all of those are yes, I would probably still be against them joining, even if they had massively liberalised and met all the joining criteria.
 
Received a lovely Leave flyer in the post today, shows us all the scary brown countries that are joining the EU! They've even gone as far as to show Syria and Iraq's borders with Turkey just so you get how super scary this is.

It's weird for a country that's outside of schengen to be so worried about non-EU citizens just 'walking across the border'.

My Dad was talking about Turkey last night and refused to believe they were so far out of joining the EU, talking about how 'his money' is paying to help them get in. For some reason, he also said Poland pays no money to the EU, when I tried to explain it was lower because of GNI and they receive money so that they become more prosperous and thus pay more money he was having none of it. Can't wait until this is over now. I just hope the bullshit hasn't poisoned the well enough and people make the right choice.
 
Pro-controlled immigration policy is to my mind, reactionary politics, based on fears rather than actual 'what's best for the country' politics. Admittedly when you get right down to the nitty gritty, I my self don't really have strong evidence on whether immigration on the scale we saw would lead to a net benefit overall long term; I certainly do think that free labour movement across the EU is good policy overall for the Union. I believe the ONS thinks long term immigration is good policy in regards to economic output - but I'm sure someone can correct me here.

I don't think the ONS gives on opinion on such things?

There has been an accelerated reliance on EU for NHS professionals, simply because this and the previous government has clamped down on immigration outside the EU, but you are still correct to my mind, when you say NHS immigration largely refers to immigration from countries outside the EU.

Well exactly, so if people point to the numbers and say the EU is vital to the NHS, the percentage of EU doctors / nurses is x%, that's probably because we've clamped down harshly on non-EU immigration. I think that's completely unfair and discriminatory (admittedly I am biased on this point).

I believe, unless somebody corrects me, NHS staff of EU origin levels are around 5%, roughly the same as the EU population as part of the UK. I think doctors are above 10% but I can't at this moment recall, where I got this figure from. If it's from some campaign leaflet, please forgive me. Anyway, I mention those figures, because 1/10th of a workforce is significant to my mind.
The recent Nurse shortage is well documented. And we're training less and less every passing year [and this arguably is national government fault]. Both of these trends suggest that we need immigration more rather than less, I repeat *need* immigration to fill a skills shortage. Brexit makes this more awkward. To my mind brexit absolutely fails here. This is one area where there is a demonstrable need for labour, and using controlled immigration policy, as we do to immigration outside the EU, shows a downward trend, hypothetically widening the gap.

Referendum politics aside, I honestly think, the Tories should really reflect on what they are doing to the NHS.

Well, I can agree with you to a point. The government really needs to treat the NHS with a lot more respect (this recent junior doctors contracts thing has been a disgrace). But there are lots of doctors and nurses in the world. We can make it easier / more attractive for them to come here if we want. And anyway, having an EU immigration policy will not mean that all EU immigration ceases post-Brexit.
 
Turkeys voting for Christmas. Pray tell how will the demand for the sector look when overall housing demand and prices fall in a larger recession.

We used to be better than this. We used to be so much better.
They know this but are willing to take the chance in the hope that in the longer term, rates of pay increase enough to return the standard of living that working in the construction sector once provided.
Many also think it could see companies offering young school leavers apprentice positions instead of just using agency staff from eastern Europe.
The opinion " If the banks and Cameron want us in then it must be better voting out " is strong as well.
Personally I'm of the opinion that more people require more houses,schools, hospitals and leisure facilities thus boosting the construction industry as a whole.
If that results in good wages again in the future remains to be seen.
 
I don't think the ONS gives on opinion on such things?*

Well, I can agree with you to a point. The government really needs to treat the NHS with a lot more respect (this recent junior doctors contracts thing has been a disgrace). **But there are lots of doctors and nurses in the world. We can make it easier / more attractive for them to come here if we want. And anyway, having an EU immigration policy will not mean that all EU immigration ceases post-Brexit.

*ONS gives out long term trends, so it's not an opinion as such.

** You think immigration policy will soften? Why do you think that? I'm a little bit confused now. Or do you think they will make special cases for nurses etc?
 
"Nicola Sturgeon would bypass the British government and negotiate directly with Brussels to keep Scotland in the EU should voters back Brexit next week."

https://www.politicshome.com/news/e...sturgeon-negotiate-brussels-keep-scotlands-eu

Good to hear. Plus it shows her willingness for Scotland to stay in the EU without another Indy Ref so close to the last one. I can't imagine a direct stay vote means a vote for Scottish Independence.

If this was to happen and Scotland would remain in the EU and the rest of the UK outside of it, what a mess it would be in terms of policy between countries, would UK business come up here? Who knows. I'm a bit naive to think what would actually happen and if it can actually happen.
 
I suppose Bill Gates' letter in the Times has already been discussed?

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/bill-gates-sounds-brexit-warning-1.2688837

Bill Gates, the world’s richest man, warned on Friday that Britain would become a “significantly less attractive place to do business” if it votes to leave the European Union in next week’s referendum.

Britain goes to the polls on June 23 to vote on whether to remain in the 28-member bloc, with major companies urging Britons to remain in the EU and retain unfettered access to Europe’s market of about 500 million consumers. Writing in the Times newspaper, Gates said he had invested around $1 billion in British research and development, attracted by the country’s access to the EU single market, strong universities and heritage in science and innovation.

“While ultimately a matter for the British people to decide, it is clear to me that if Britain chooses to be outside of Europe, it will be a significantly less attractive place to do business and to invest,” the Microsoft founder and billionaire philanthropist said. “It will be harder to find and recruit the best talent from across the continent; talent which, in turn, creates jobs for people in the UK.”

Not sure how much stuff like this matters though. On a videogame-y note, I wonder what kind of impact there'd be on the games industry in the UK. A number of international platform holders with multiple studios there.
 
Good to hear. Plus it shows her willingness for Scotland to stay in the EU without another Indy Ref so close to the last one. I can't imagine a direct stay vote means a vote for Scottish Independence.

If this was to happen and Scotland would remain in the EU and the rest of the UK outside of it, what a mess it would be in terms of policy between countries, would UK business come up here? Who knows. I'm a bit naive to think what would actually happen and if it can actually happen.
Can Scotland stay in the EU without leaving the UK?
 
Can Scotland stay in the EU without leaving the UK?

I wouldn't think so, the article said there would be another referendum. Now the SNP have a two pronged attack in that people will vote Yes for Scotland to be Independent but now No voters who want EU membership.

Although the article states a new referendum will be fast tracked, I honestly can't be bothered with another referendum for 6 months after 2 in 2 years.

The Scottish First Minister’s official spokesman later confirmed to The Times that the Scottish Government would seek “political and diplomatic” routes to keep the country in the EU.

The paper reports that Ms Sturgeon would look to secure Scotland’s membership while the rest of the UK left, so as to avoid dropping down the list of applicants to join the bloc.

It would mean in theory Scotland would not need to apply to be part of Europe as we would have never left? Gets a bit confusing.
 
Received a lovely Leave flyer in the post today, shows us all the scary brown countries that are joining the EU! They've even gone as far as to show Syria and Iraq's borders with Turkey just so you get how super scary this is.

It's weird for a country that's outside of schengen to be so worried about non-EU citizens just 'walking across the border'.

My Dad was talking about Turkey last night and refused to believe they were so far out of joining the EU, talking about how 'his money' is paying to help them get in. For some reason, he also said Poland pays no money to the EU, when I tried to explain it was lower because of GNI and they receive money so that they become more prosperous and thus pay more money he was having none of it. Can't wait until this is over now. I just hope the bullshit hasn't poisoned the well enough and people make the right choice.

Same thing happened to me last night, it must be a generational thing. No chance of bringing him round now. Thankfully, there is only six days to go.
 
I'd also need to know a few more things that I can't possibly know at this point. What's the population of future Turkey? Would it be the most populous country if it joined? Would it have the most MEPs? Does it still border a bunch of failed states in the middle east? If the answer to some or all of those are yes, I would probably still be against them joining, even if they had massively liberalised and met all the joining criteria.

I think that's my ultimate point: Why have this as a component of your decision now when they situation where it would be on the table would have an awful lot of unknowns involved in it?

In the worst-case scenario, I'd probably agree with you about wanting to keep Turkey out. But any scenario is so far off, the world can be a very different place when it's on the cards, and I don't think assuming the worst case is the best criteria to use from the position here and now.

(I will say, though, that while I get your point from a political standpoint, I do find this:

Does it still border a bunch of failed states in the middle east?

a little bit distasteful, it gives a whiff of "You can't join our club because we need you to act as a buffer zone". Which makes sense - I think it's the sort of political thing that would be considered if the discussion was on the table - but it's not a terribly noble sentiment.)
 
Same thing happened to me last night, it must be a generational thing. No chance of bringing him round now. Thankfully, there is only six days to go.
We had it all at dinner last night, talk of 'benefit tourism' and 'economic refugees'. It's gotten a bit crazy now with some of these things. I found the latter to be grossly offensive because refugees are some of the most vulnerable people and when they were told the actual figures of healthcare tourism and how the NHS can claim back funds from any EEA country and how low deliberate intent is it was just met with 'you can't just say everything we say is wrong'. As a family, we've only really clashed when I was a precocious teenager but these last few weeks have been awful, I only properly got suckered in last night but there's only so much bullshit you can hear without saying something.
 
*ONS gives out long term trends, so it's not an opinion as such.

** You think immigration policy will soften? Why do you think that? I'm a little bit confused now. Or do you think they will make special cases for nurses etc?

I'm imagining a special case would be made for "essential professions". Don't other countries do this already?
 
"Nicola Sturgeon would bypass the British government and negotiate directly with Brussels to keep Scotland in the EU should voters back Brexit next week."

https://www.politicshome.com/news/e...sturgeon-negotiate-brussels-keep-scotlands-eu

I guess being in the EU without the pound would be a better scenario than being outside the EU with it, unless the complexity (and uniqueness of the situation) encourages Brussels to allow Scotland to have its own, separate currency.
 
Received a lovely Leave flyer in the post today, shows us all the scary brown countries that are joining the EU! They've even gone as far as to show Syria and Iraq's borders with Turkey just so you get how super scary this is.

It's weird for a country that's outside of schengen to be so worried about non-EU citizens just 'walking across the border'.

My Dad was talking about Turkey last night and refused to believe they were so far out of joining the EU, talking about how 'his money' is paying to help them get in. For some reason, he also said Poland pays no money to the EU, when I tried to explain it was lower because of GNI and they receive money so that they become more prosperous and thus pay more money he was having none of it. Can't wait until this is over now. I just hope the bullshit hasn't poisoned the well enough and people make the right choice.


Unfortunately, this is the perfect point for why most countries don't let their people directly vote on very important issues.
 
I wouldn't think so, the article said there would be another referendum. Now the SNP have a two pronged attack in that people will vote Yes for Scotland to be Independent but now No voters who want EU membership.

Although the article states a new referendum will be fast tracked, I honestly can't be bothered with another referendum for 6 months after 2 in 2 years.



It would mean in theory Scotland would not need to apply to be part of Europe as we would have never left? Gets a bit confusing.

Yeah, article 50 was written to keep people like Farage happy, if you're determined to leave, the EU can't legally delay or block it.

There's nothing in it about people who want to stay or a country changing its mind about going etc. I'm sure lawyers will be rubbing their hands at the prospect.
 
We're right now in the middle of a nursing shortage. And we right now have a politically motivated anti-migration policy. Why look at other countries?

If we had a comprehensive universal immigration policy we could have something like:

i) are you a nurse?
ii) do you speak English?

If i) and ii) are yes, you're in.

At the moment, we're not doing that because we're trying to get the net immigration numbers into the "tens of thousands" (dumb pledge, but whatever) and EU immigration, which we can't control in any respect, is more than that on its own. So we're choking out all the non-EU immigration because that's the only bit we can. If we Brexited, I'd hope the current lamentable situation would be replaced with a comprehensive universal immigration policy in which it would be politically acceptable to make exceptions like the above.

Edit:

Does the Leave camp actually have any proposals for that or ideas about it?

lol I'm not a Leave spokesperson (although maybe I sound like one in this thread), but I'm guessing no. But hey, I just made a proposal in this post. I'm more about the opportunities afforded by Brexit than any specific proposal by Vote Leave. Those are few and far between anyway.
 
If we had a comprehensive universal immigration policy we could have something like:

i) are you a nurse?
ii) do you speak English?

If i) and ii) are yes, you're in.

At the moment, we're not doing that because we're trying to get the net immigration numbers into the "tens of thousands" (dumb pledge, but whatever) and EU immigration, which we can't control in any respect, is more than that on its own. So we're choking out all the non-EU immigration because that's the only bit we can. If we Brexited, I'd hope the current lamentable situation would be replaced with a comprehensive universal immigration policy in which it would be politically acceptable to make exceptions like the above.
I am not entirely sure if you truly believe the above, but given the recent steer towards "let's give the jobs to unemployed British people" and the general racism towards the immigrants in general, I think you are being way too optimistic.

In addition to this, the "lamentable situation" has been demystified on a number of occasions already; but I guess the "feeling" of "too many immigrants!" will always be there, no matter what the data will actually show.
 
Angry far-right groups and anti-immigrant sentiments are on the rise across Europe, this is not a UK exclusive problem. The financial crisis of 2008 and it's ramifications have destabilised the discourse and exposed huge failings in the actual society of many EU countries. Resentment towards the establishment and privileged classes has been easy to channel into far-right rhetoric, if people were living in economic conditions at pre-2008 levels, this referendum would be a non-event. Things can't get much worse for the man in the street so they feel if they sling out all the immigrants, there will be more to go around.

The biggest failure of this whole campaign has been the failure of Remain to emphasise the positive aspects of immigration. I don't think the average person is aware of how much the NHS relies on trained professionals from outside the UK. The right-wing press and the Leave campaign have succeeded in conjuring the image of a disheveled brown-skinned rapist/terrorist/benefit sponge whenever the word 'immigrant' is deployed.

Yep, think you've hit the nail on the head there. And I admit what I omitted to mention in my own post is the catastrophic failure of the Remain campaign, with some of Cameron and Osborne's "contributions" being so catastrophic I almost felt like reaching for a tin-foiled hat and declaring them sleeper agents of the Leave campaign. That said, I'm not sure what I would find worse - that they genuinely are trying to sabotage the Remain campaign or that they genuinely believe threatening a "punishment budget" and claiming WWIII could practically break out post-Brexit are actually going to help swing people to Remain.
 
lol I'm not a Leave spokesperson (although maybe I sound like one in this thread), but I'm guessing no. But hey, I just made a proposal in this post. I'm more about the opportunities afforded by Brexit than any specific proposal by Vote Leave. Those are few and far between anyway.
You're laughing this off a bit, but isn't this a major problem? Nobody has any plan ready for what actually is going to happen when Britain votes Leave and that is a totally irresponsible way to go about it.
 
So there is no real way and outside of that we engage in a race to the bottom with other nations whose only comparative advantage is to act as a tax haven and regulation free zone. Which is quite frankly irresponsible, unattainable and unsustainable.

This is actually my main Brexit worry as someone living in Finland. UK becoming (even more of) a tax haven would screw over majority of people in both UK, and the rest of EU.
 
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