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[Kabouter]

We don't need a better deal. We just need the same deal that others have got. How about the same deal as Canada?

Yes, and I'm saying you will likely get offered effectively the same deal as Norway and Iceland. They can't offer you a deal that is significantly better than that, because of the precedent it would set.

So all the brexit is essentially a way to keep the EU migrants out?

Because to "trade" with UK, it's almost a given that the UK will need to accept trades agreement from EU, etc.
So the whole point of voting out is to keep the bad bad migrants out?

EEA immigrants on the whole are a significant net benefit to Western economies like the UK, but yeah, people believe them to be bad because they 'take jobs' and other concerns along those lines.

 

[theaface]

whisperings of possibly, maybe, eventually finding some kind of accommodation for the UK

Well that sounds encouraging and a strong enough basis to take a chance on something that will have massive ramifications for generations to come. /s

if leave wins, there is no way they will accept free movement as part of any deal, simply wont happen...there would be uproar, and rightly so

They'd be free to refuse terms all they want, but Britain outside of the EU is not one in a position of strength to bargain. Ask yourself, who needs who more out of Britain and the EU? I'm pretty sure if there's a game of chicken to be had at the end of all this, the EU won't blink first.

 

[Tak3n]

Well that sounds encouraging and a strong enough basis to take a chance on something that will have massive ramifications for generations to come. /s



They'd be free to refuse terms all they want, but Britain outside of the EU is not one in a position of strength to bargain. Ask yourself, who needs who more out of Britain and the EU? I'm pretty sure if there's a game of chicken to be had at the end of all this, the EU won't blink first.

Dont disagree and if Labour win the next GE maybe, but not a chance in hell Gove, Boris et al accept a deal with free movement

 

[Psychotext]

That and the perception of the EU forcing too many regulations and laws on the UK.

Aye... those horrible worker and environment protecting regulations and laws.

Dont disagree and if Labour win the next GE maybe, but not a chance in hell Gove, Boris et al accept a deal with free movement

If they could do it and still get power, they'd do it in a heart beat.

"Sorry, we did everything we could, but those evil bastards in the EU have punished us for wanting freedom from their tyranny."

...and you'd eat it up.

 

[EdwardTeach]

Immigration being the biggest issue here, there won't be any free trade agreement possible.

Ridiculous. You need free movement of labour to have a free trade agreement.

 

[Abinash117]

How badly would a Brexit effect the US and global economy?

 

[ittoryu]

but yeah, people believe them to be bad because they 'take jobs' and other concerns along those lines.

I am one of the EU migrants to UK, so I know the feeling of being considered as such, unfortunately.

It's just so unbelievable to see that people actually thinking of us as a problem... sigh.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

Because you are not Canada. Also, which deal are we talking? Because the trade agreement between the EU and Canada is not in effect yet and still requires some countries to sign. See here how difficult it is to get those agreements made, and you can be sure that countries will act more difficult with the UK.

No, we're more important to the EU by every metric aren't we? We're closer, trade more, have a bigger economy. So why is it too much to ask?

As for it taking a long time, we've got two years from initiating Art. 50, plus another two year extension, so....four years? Maybe five if we leave it a bit before initiating Art. 50 after the referendum? That doesn't sound like an unreasonable time frame to me.

 

[dno_1966]

I am one of the EU migrants to UK, so I know the feeling of being considered as such, unfortunately.

It's just so unbelievable to see that people actually thinking of us as a problem... sigh.

Some people. I and many others are happy to have you!

 

[ittoryu]

Some people. I and many others are happy to have you!

Will have a pint if "Remain" wins then

 

[anonymous_abc]

No, we're more important to the EU by every metric aren't we? We're closer, trade more, have a bigger economy. So why is it too much to ask?

We've got over this many times....
How can you think it will be in the interest of rEU to be lenient and friendly with the UK?

 

[KingSnake]

No, we're more important to the EU by every metric aren't we? We're closer, trade more, have a bigger economy. So why is it too much to ask?

Because it would mean for example that Le Pen will become the next president of France by campaigning for getting the same deal.

Because The Netherlands, Austria and Finland will follow to push for exit and trade agreement

Because there is no incentive for Eastern European countries to sign such a deal.

Because it will mean the end of EU.

And because punishing UK means better opportunities for other countries within EU, including Germany especially for financial services. Which will not that compensate whatever loss is incurred by the reduction in the buying power of Britons.

 

[ClosingADoor]

No, we're more important to the EU by every metric aren't we? We're closer, trade more, have a bigger economy. So why is it too much to ask?

As for it taking a long time, we've got two years from initiating Art. 50, plus another two year extension, so....four years? Maybe five if we leave it a bit before initiating Art. 50 after the referendum? That doesn't sound like an unreasonable time frame to me.

The Canada negotiations started in 2009. It is still not signed. Good luck doing that in two years or even four.

It is too much to ask, because the EU countries have different interests when it comes to the UK. For example, you have a lot of Polish workers. Poland would like to keep it that way, so an agreement for them needs to include workers right. For Spain, some deal needs to be made for British people there and the cost associated with it. For countries with a fishing industry, something needs to be figured out about fishing rights and the waters. There is more going on then with Canada.

Add to that, that giving the UK a great deal straight away would just motivate other countries to leave and strengthen the anti-EU movement. EU officials and pro-EU governments obviously won't want to sign off on anything like that.

You can not compare a deal between the EU and Canada to one between the UK and the EU because everyone's interest is different in this one.

How badly would a Brexit effect the US and global economy?

It would be a negative effect, since companies now doing their EU business through the UK lose access to the EU market and will need to fix that. Trade agreements that went through the EU will no longer be valid for the UK, so those need to be negotiated again. With the UK in a weaker position, so other governments want to take advantage of that maybe instead of just copying previous text.

 

[Best]

Brexiters seem to forget the only question on the ballot paper is membership of the EU. Anything else is up for grabs.

 

[phisheep]

We don't need a better deal. We just need the same deal that others have got. How about the same deal as Canada?

The one that took five years to negotiate and still isn't ratified?

 

[anonymous_abc]

Brexiters seem to forget the only question on the ballot paper is membership of the EU. Anything else is up for grabs.

Which is a major part of the entire farce...

 

[Sarek]

We've got over this many times....
How can you think it will be in the interest of rEU to be lenient and friendly with the UK?

Also I've seen UK being important trading partner with rEU being mentioned in this thread many times, which of course very true. But the EU is proportionally way more important trading partner to the UK than the other way around. About half the current UK exports go to EU countries, no EU country has UK as even anywhere close to that important trading partner.

 

[ClosingADoor]

The one that took five years to negotiate and still isn't ratified?

Also the one that Eastern Europe wants to include visa free travel to Canada in, while the Brexit voters would be against that.

 

[Kathian]

UKpolitics on Reddit is disgusting right now.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

The one that took five years to negotiate and still isn't ratified?

Seems like they already did a lot of the work!

Seriously, just use the same text, scribble out Canada with a biro and write UK over the top. Then we've got four leisurely years just to ratify the thing before we even leave the EU.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Seems like they already did a lot of the work!

Seriously, just use the same text, scribble out Canada with a biro and write UK over the top. Then we've got four leisurely years just to ratify the thing before we even leave the EU.

You can not be serious?

 

[Abinash117]

The Canada negotiations started in 2009. It is still not signed. Good luck doing that in two years or even four.

It is too much to ask, because the EU countries have different interests when it comes to the UK. For example, you have a lot of Polish workers. Poland would like to keep it that way, so an agreement for them needs to include workers right. For Spain, some deal needs to be made for British people there and the cost associated with it. For countries with a fishing industry, something needs to be figured out about fishing rights and the waters. There is more going on then with Canada.

Add to that, that giving the UK a great deal straight away would just motivate other countries to leave and strengthen the anti-EU movement. EU officials and pro-EU governments obviously won't want to sign off on anything like that.

You can not compare a deal between the EU and Canada to one between the UK and the EU because everyone's interest is different in this one.


It would be a negative effect, since companies now doing their EU business through the UK lose access to the EU market and will need to fix that. Trade agreements that went through the EU will no longer be valid for the UK, so those need to be negotiated again. With the UK in a weaker position, so other governments want to take advantage of that maybe instead of just copying previous text.

I read some articles about it that markets will be unstable, but I don't if the US and some other countries will go into a recession.

 

[mr-paul]

Reading the posts of pro-leave people on here astound me. You're living in cloud cuckoo land.

You might not be one of the ones that are really anti-immigrant, but can't you see how it's inevitable that leaving the EU is really going to fuck our country up in so many ways?

We aren't going to get some perfect deal.

If we get a deal like Norway, but without the free movement, we'll be pretty much exactly the same as now, but with fewer immigrants, but no say in the rules and regulations that we have to abide to. Is that really worth it, in your opinion?

I'm really scared. This country is going to the pits.

 

[Tak3n]

Reading the posts of pro-leave people on here astound me. You're living in cloud cuckoo land.

You might not be one of the ones that are really anti-immigrant, but can't you see how it's inevitable that leaving the EU is really going to fuck our country up in so many ways?

We aren't going to get some perfect deal.

If we get a deal like Norway, but without the free movement, we'll be pretty much exactly the same as now, but with fewer immigrants, but no say in the rules and regulations that we have to abide to. Is that really worth it, in your opinion?

I'm really scared. This country is going to the pits.

I am an out voter, and TBH I believe this country needs a reset, I fully accept there will be a 10-20 year levelling period, but after that things will be fine again, and I have yet to come across anyone who can answer the question of how we cope going forward with mass immigration, if we are being conservative and say 2.5 million over a 10 year period, where do we get the resources to cope

because the argument that this is a Government issue does not work, as they have shown there is no appetite to build the infrastructure to cope, so just saying it is up to the incumbent Government does not work with me...and i am not referring to building a million homes, I am on about real infrastructure...Bigger Hospitals, Schools, Doctors, Prisons

if over the last 10 years I had seen the infrastructure and resources being put in place, I would be the first to tick remain, but they have not, they have stood by with the 'no money' mantra

 

[jelly]

Considering the Tories are pro business I imagine workers rights will go out the window which the EU has safe guarded and is very positive in that regard. Do you like 4 weeks paid leave, maternity, decent standard work hours per week. You think businesses like that, absolutely not and who would love to help them change that.....you guessed it.

 

[avaya]

I read some articles about it that markets will be unstable, but I don't if the US and some other countries will go into a recession.

The US will be much more resilient but it will surpress global demand and the sentiment around growth which in turn affects investment. I know the Dems are worried because Hilldawg could inherit a recession for a quarter or two.

 

[jelly]

I am an out voter, and TBH I believe this country needs a reset, I fully accept there will be a 10-20 year levelling period, but after that things will be fine again, and I have yet to come across anyone who can answer the question of how we cope going forward with mass immigration, if we are being conservative and say 2.5 million over a 10 year period, where do we get the resources to cope

because the argument that this is a Government issue does not work, as they have shown there is no appetite to build the infrastructure to cope, so just saying it is up to the incumbent Government does not help

Over 100, 000 last year from outside the EU and about similar inside. Why didn't the government reduce the outside EU migrants ? I don't think leaving will do anything if haven't done anything already. You're just handing over the keys to people who want to reduce your rights under the guise of immigration.

 

[Chinner]

I am an out voter, and TBH I believe this country needs a reset, I fully accept there will be a 10-20 year levelling period, but after that things will be fine again, and I have yet to come across anyone who can answer the question of how we cope going forward with mass immigration, if we are being conservative and say 2.5 million over a 10 year period, where do we get the resources to cope

because the argument that this is a Government issue does not work, as they have shown there is no appetite to build the infrastructure to cope, so just saying it is up to the incumbent Government does not work with me...and i am not referring to building a million homes, I am on about real infrastructure...Bigger Hospitals, Schools, Doctors, Prisons

if over the last 10 years I had seen the infrastructure and resources being put in place, I would be the first to tick remain, but they have not, they have stood by with the 'no money' mantra

So you're voting out because of the lack of action from the UK government.

 

[Draft]

I am an out voter, and TBH I believe this country needs a reset, I fully accept there will be a 10-20 year levelling period, but after that things will be fine again, and I have yet to come across anyone who can answer the question of how we cope going forward with mass immigration, if we are being conservative and say 2.5 million over a 10 year period, where do we get the resources to cope

because the argument that this is a Government issue does not work, as they have shown there is no appetite to build the infrastructure to cope, so just saying it is up to the incumbent Government does not work with me...and i am not referring to building a million homes, I am on about real infrastructure...Bigger Hospitals, Schools, Doctors, Prisons

if over the last 10 years I had seen the infrastructure and resources being put in place, I would be the first to tick remain, but they have not, they have stood by with the 'no money' mantra

10-20 years is a long time. Not many countries easily bounce back from an entire generation mired in economic calamity.

 

[Tak3n]

So you're voting out because of the lack of action from the UK government.

I know I am putting my head above the parapet, but yes, and local Government

 

[avaya]

I am an out voter, and TBH I believe this country needs a reset, I fully accept there will be a 10-20 year levelling period, but after that things will be fine again, and I have yet to come across anyone who can answer the question of how we cope going forward with mass immigration, if we are being conservative and say 2.5 million over a 10 year period, where do we get the resources to cope

because the argument that this is a Government issue does not work, as they have shown there is no appetite to build the infrastructure to cope, so just saying it is up to the incumbent Government does not work with me...and i am not referring to building a million homes, I am on about real infrastructure...Bigger Hospitals, Schools, Doctors, Prisons

if over the last 10 years I had seen the infrastructure and resources being put in place, I would be the first to tick remain, but they have not, they have stood by with the 'no money' mantra

This is like saying I have an itch on my leg. I better hacksaw it off otherwise how can I cope. In a few years I'll get used to being disabled, it'll be fine.

I just can't even.

 

[mr-paul]

I am an out voter, and TBH I believe this country needs a reset, I fully accept there will be a 10-20 year levelling period, but after that things will be fine again, and I have yet to come across anyone who can answer the question of how we cope going forward with mass immigration, if we are being conservative and say 2.5 million over a 10 year period, where do we get the resources to cope

because the argument that this is a Government issue does not work, as they have shown there is no appetite to build the infrastructure to cope, so just saying it is up to the incumbent Government does not work with me...and i am not referring to building a million homes, I am on about real infrastructure...Bigger Hospitals, Schools, Doctors, Prisons

if over the last 10 years I had seen the infrastructure and resources being put in place, I would be the first to tick remain, but they have not, they have stood by with the 'no money' mantra

So your gripe is with our politicians, and you think leaving the EU will make them care about us more? You just have a dream that after 10-20 years of struggle, which will encompass the main chunk of my adult life, everything will be fine. The immigration isn't the problem. They're a net benefit to us. Don't you see the many other benefits the EU brings to us?

Campaign for change in this country. Don't fuck it up for some outlandish dream that we can cut ourself off from what can be an excellent institution where countries work together in peace to make everyone's lives better. I want to live in a world community. Not a xenophobic, cut off from the world country.

 

[ClosingADoor]

I am an out voter, and TBH I believe this country needs a reset, I fully accept there will be a 10-20 year levelling period, but after that things will be fine again, and I have yet to come across anyone who can answer the question of how we cope going forward with mass immigration, if we are being conservative and say 2.5 million over a 10 year period, where do we get the resources to cope

because the argument that this is a Government issue does not work, as they have shown there is no appetite to build the infrastructure to cope, so just saying it is up to the incumbent Government does not work with me...and i am not referring to building a million homes, I am on about real infrastructure...Bigger Hospitals, Schools, Doctors, Prisons

if over the last 10 years I had seen the infrastructure and resources being put in place, I would be the first to tick remain, but they have not, they have stood by with the 'no money' mantra

How are these in any way EU issues? If anything, the EU is investing money in areas the UK government ignores when it comes to infrastructure, since there are special funds for that paid for with EU money.

The mass immigration that you are afraid of - and some of the concerns there I fully share - are not EU issues. That is your own government. The UK already has a special place within the EU and illegal immigrants are stopped at the borders with the help of France for example.

Eastern European immigration is not really that much of an issue, since those countries are improving, so the people coming from there will actually go down over time.

I know I am putting my head above the parapet, but yes, and local Government

So vote in better politicians there. Leaving the EU will do nothing to fix your concerns, but probably make it worse.

I fully accept my logic can be challenged but there are at least my opinion

You shouldn't just make an important decision like this on opinions and feelings, but base them in fact. And the fact is that your concerns will not be addressed if the UK leaves the EU.

 

[Tak3n]

This is like saying I have an itch on my leg. I better hacksaw it off otherwise how can I cope. In a few years I'll get used to being disabled, it'll be fine.

I just can't even.

I fully accept my logic can be challenged but there are at least my opinion

 

[Tak3n]

How are these in any way EU issues? If anything, the EU is investing money in areas the UK government ignores when it comes to infrastructure, since there are special funds for that paid for with EU money.

The mass immigration that you are afraid of - and some of the concerns there I fully share - are not EU issues. That is your own government. The UK already has a special place within the EU and illegal immigrants are stopped at the borders with the help of France for example.

Eastern European immigration is not really that much of an issue, since those countries are improving, so the people coming from there will actually go down over time.

I agree with you 100% it is not a EU issue.... Labour and the Tories should hang their head in shame that people feel the way I do, and for to many years they have brushed it off as poor management, not a problem, closet racist.....and now suddenly there is a problem, when 50% of the country are about to vote leave

 

[ibrahima]

I am an out voter, and TBH I believe this country needs a reset,

I'm an in voter because you don't fix a country by causing a twenty year depression. What you are talking about is the destruction of the livelihoods for millions of people.

I'm an in voter because not a single brexit argument on the economy has been anything more than wishful thinking and pleas to past national identities.

I'm an in voter because there are problems bigger than a single nation state.

I certainly hope there are more people like me than there are people like you.

 

[ClosingADoor]

I agree with you 100% it is not a EU issue.... Labour and the Tories should hang their head in shame that people feel the way I do, and for to many years they have brushed it off as poor management, not a problem, closet racist.....and now suddenly there is a problem, when 50% of the country are about to vote leave

So why are you voting leave if you agree that leaving the EU will not fix these problems?

 

[KingSnake]

So why are you voting leave if you agree that leaving the EU will not fix these problems?

Because he hopes that somebody other than Tories and Labour will rule the country. I wonder who?

 

[anonymous_abc]

.

I can't even...

 

[Arksy]

Reading the posts of pro-leave people on here astound me. You're living in cloud cuckoo land.

You might not be one of the ones that are really anti-immigrant, but can't you see how it's inevitable that leaving the EU is really going to fuck our country up in so many ways?

We aren't going to get some perfect deal.

If we get a deal like Norway, but without the free movement, we'll be pretty much exactly the same as now, but with fewer immigrants, but no say in the rules and regulations that we have to abide to. Is that really worth it, in your opinion?

I'm really scared. This country is going to the pits.

No I'm not worried at all. Every single country in the UK sells a significant amount of things to the UK market, any whiff that Merkel is going try to block a deal will probably see significant if not overwhelming domestic pressure from the auto-industry to do otherwise.

As far as the deal with Norway, we have no say in the rules of India or the US and we sell to those countries without an issue. We have to respect their rules when we sell to them. That isn't an issue at all. What is an issue is forcing us to abide by those rules even when we're selling outside of the EU.

Even if I'm completely wrong and the sky falls in and there's world war three, then I still wouldn't change my mind due to the democratic issue.

 

[Kimawolf]

So a friend of mine who is British is voting out. He said tbat the EU would have too much control over Britain and that theyd end up doing to britain what they did to Greece: strip it clean of anything of value then try to shackle it with debt it could never pay back.

Also the EU wants to take away Britain's fishing and manufacturing industries and make Britain only be A IT country?

Also believes the goal of the EU is to eventually set up Europe like the States.

Any of that ring true?


Also how do you all feel about an American President getting involved in your internal affairs?

 

[Kabouter]

So a friend of mine who is British is voting out. He said tbat the EU would have too much control over Britain and that theyd end up doing to britain what they did to Greece: strip it clean of anything of value then try to shackle it with debt it could never pay back.

Also the EU wants to take away Britain's fishing and manufacturing industries and make Britain only be A IT country?

Also believes the goal of the EU is to eventually set up Europe like the States.

Any of that ring true?


Also how do you all feel about an American President getting involved in your internal affairs?

The original goal of the European project is setting up a federal Europe, at this point it seems quite unlikely that will ever happen though, sadly.

The rest of it does not ring true even a little bit.

 

[danowat]

So a friend of mine who is British is voting out. He said tbat the EU would have too much control over Britain and that theyd end up doing to britain what they did to Greece: strip it clean of anything of value then try to shackle it with debt it could never pay back.

Also the EU wants to take away Britain's fishing and manufacturing industries and make Britain only be A IT country?

Also believes the goal of the EU is to eventually set up Europe like the States.

Any of that ring true?


Also how do you all feel about an American President getting involved in your internal affairs?

No, there's fuck all left to strip clean, the tories did that decades ago.

Your friend is ill informed.

 

[anonymous_abc]

So a friend of mine who is British is voting out. He said tbat the EU would have too much control over Britain and that theyd end up doing to britain what they did to Greece: strip it clean of anything of value then try to shackle it with debt it could never pay back.

Also the EU wants to take away Britain's fishing and manufacturing industries and make Britain only be A IT country?

Also believes the goal of the EU is to eventually set up Europe like the States.

Any of that ring true?


Also how do you all feel about an American President getting involved in your internal affairs?

Laughable
Laughable
Many (me included) see that as an end game. Regrettably unlikely in our lifetime...
Everyone should be able to give their opinion, everyone will be affected by this decision.

 

[anonymous_abc]

Even if I'm completely wrong and the sky falls in and there's world war three, then I still wouldn't change my mind due to the democratic issue.

You would willingly accept WWIII because you were not able to directly elect Jean Claude?

I can't even...

 

[Arksy]

You would willingly accept WWIII because you were not able to directly elect Jean Claude?

I can't even...

I didn't expect anyone to actually to take that line seriously. Let me rephrase simply then; I don't think the UK will be worse of economically, however even if it were to be, I still think strengthening the democratic structures of the country is far more important...and that necessarily means leaving the EU.

 

[ClosingADoor]

No I'm not worried at all. Every single country in the UK sells a significant amount of things to the UK market, any whiff that Merkel is going try to block a deal will probably see significant if not overwhelming domestic pressure from the auto-industry to do otherwise.

As far as the deal with Norway, we have no say in the rules of India or the US and we sell to those countries without an issue. We have to respect their rules when we sell to them. That isn't an issue at all. What is an issue is forcing us to abide by those rules even when we're selling outside of the EU.

Even if I'm completely wrong and the sky falls in and there's world war three, then I still wouldn't change my mind due to the democratic issue.

Trade agreements need to be signed off by all EU countries. Even if Germany wants to sign it, some others will not. How do you think it will go over in Poland, Romania, Bulgaria when the UK wants to throw their people out of their jobs there?

And yes, you do need to follow a lot of rules from India and the US for trade. But the EU has more strict regulations for a lot of things, so you'll also need to follow that.

Plus, I think most trade agreements you have now go through the EU, so you need to do all that over. And now in a less favorable position without the EU behind you, which other countries will take advantage off.

Brexit voters really seem to think the world revolved around the UK and others will just accept whatever the UK wants. It doesn't work that way.

 

[danowat]

I didn't expect anyone to actually to take that line seriously. Let me rephrase simply then; I don't think the UK will be worse of economically, however even if it were to be, I still think strengthening the democratic structures of the country is far more important...and that necessarily means leaving the EU.

It will undoubtedly be worse off economically , and as for democracy, you'll have no more say under a non-EU government than you have now.

It's just a bunch of elected officials either way.

Show me some rules or laws that the EU has come up with that hasn't benefitted us in some way.

 

[Arksy]

It will undoubtedly be worse off economically , and as for democracy, you'll have no more say under a non-EU government than you have now.

It's just a bunch of elected officials either way.

Show me one rule or law that the EU has come up with that hasn't benefitted us in some way.

I could list dozens, but that's not really the point. I don't care if the laws have done us well or have done us harm. It's the process that I care about. A benevolent dictator is still a dictator.

 

[danowat]

I could list dozens, but that's not really the point. I don't care if the laws have done us well or have done us harm. It's the process that I care about.

It's your opinion, but I think it's a bizarre way to see it.