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[SomTervo]

It seems to me most leave voters aren't in it to 'screw the middle class' or anything like that. I think most are genuinely voting for what they think will be best for themselves, of course I think they're wrong and are basing their decisions in part on lies they've been told by the leave campaign, but yeah, I don't think the main intent here is to just stick it to the middle classes.

100%.

IMO it's got nothing to do with the middle classes. I haven't even heard that as an argument until I read these posts.

It's not surprising that 'traditionally working class' areas are polling high on Leave because they have the highest readership of Rupert Murdoch papers, which promote the xenophobic message central to Leave.

If you and everyone you know reads one narrative - that immigrants are taking our jobs, that Brussels somehow excise vast power over everything we do - then you will believe that narrative and vote Leave. Even though it's total tosh, it doesn't matter. It's the narrative that surrounds you.

 

[Psychotext]

We *have* a decent team. Just happens it is the Welsh team for a change. #bettertogether

Edit: so much for a quiet day, just got invaded by two coach loads of old ladies from the Rhondda. If I get a word in edgeways I'll ascertain their voting intentions. Fat chance.

Completely unrelated to the thread... what's this "shop" you're in?

 

[LemonGremlin]

It's not just economic experts - its scientists, health services, trade unions, business, manufacturing, security etc. Overwhelming for remaining in EU.

Whenever an "expert" comes out for Leave (Dyson, JCB for example), they fall over themselves to mention them at every opportunity. Gove and co. have to use the anti-intellecrual ignorant "had enough of experts" line because their argument is based on half truths and lies.

 

[Juicy Bob]

as some one who is voting leave I will try to explain...

1st expert...ok that is valid point

2nd expert....ok you just said exactly the same

3rd expert.....ok, do any of these experts actually have anything different to say other than the sky is about to fall in, and they wont be as rich.

4th expert....sigh....just sigh

and what are we up to know...1300 or some daft number........it feels completely like a stitch up, all saying the same....they wont be as rich and we will be poorer, and if we really upset them they are going to take their ball and leave....

Threats never work well

I really don't think there's some kind of conspiracy here.

A lot of the experts cited for being very down on Brexit are from academic institutions. career academics don't tend to have agendas. They are just fucking nerds who find all this shit fascinating and like to research and learn more about it.

It was academics and researchers who first realised that smoking was pretty fucking harmful. It was academics and researchers who realised that all the CO2 we pump out might be affecting the climate of the planet. It was academics and researchers who have identified that we make have a missive issue with mental health problems in this country and that we need to do something about it.

Sometimes the experts don't agree. But when they are all almost unanimous across the board saying 'yeah, voting out of the EU would have an overall negative impact on the UK's prospects going forward', you can be sure that I am going to fucking listen to them over Boris Johnson.

 

[ClosingADoor]

100%.

IMO it's got nothing to do with the middle classes. I haven't even heard that as an argument until I read these posts.

It's not surprising that 'traditionally working class' areas are polling high on Leave because they have the highest readership of Rupert Murdoch papers, which promote the xenophobic message central to Leave.

To be fair, this group would also be hit harder by immigration, since those jobs can more easily be replaced by cheaper workers from Eastern Europe.

 

[T-Rex.]

as some one who is voting leave I will try to explain...

1st expert...ok that is valid point

2nd expert....ok you just said exactly the same

3rd expert.....ok, do any of these experts actually have anything different to say other than the sky is about to fall in, and they wont be as rich.

4th expert....sigh....just sigh

and what are we up to know...1300 or some daft number........it feels completely like a stitch up, all saying the same....they wont be as rich and we will be poorer, and if we really upset them they are going to take their ball and leave....

Threats never work well

So because a majority of knowledgeable people agree on something - something that contradicts your viewpoint - it's better to write it off as a conspiracy rather than accept that maybe they know what they're talking about?

 

[PJV3]

take back control

For 35% of the electorate.

It will become Daily Mail island, especially if Scotland goes. Permanent Tory style rule.
If we could reform our system I would feel far easier about leaving.

 

[Acorn]

Oh yeah I know. Some members weren't even originally part of the empire right?



Well all the kiwis moving back to NZ made some extra room.

Yeah I think some former French colonies are members iirc.

 

[ExtremePopcorn]

Well why not? I'd support it!

And so do the majority of people in the 4 countries.

As far as I know it's an issue for the UK, Australian, Canadian and New Zealand governments and not the EU to sort out.

The UK government certainly isn't helping with their new rules about minimum earning limits on visa applications for people from outside the EU and the annual surcharge for using the NHS.

 

[SomTervo]

Gove and co. have to use the anti-intellecrual ignorant "had enough of experts" line because their argument is based on half truths and lies.

Noticed this myself.

It's agony.

We're out, guys. Everything is shit.

I say this because every vote I've ever partaken in (the last 10 years of voting) has gone the wrong way. Has gone against what I believe in. I reckon Brexit might do the same.

 

[Coxy100]

As an Irishman who's country will be severely affected if the UK leaves, with particular ramifications for the border in the north, I really hope that you guys stay in. The EU needs huge reforms but a Transparent, democratic and united EU is worth fighting for.

I'm a remain supporter (just) but I don't think we will ever get that.

 

[HandsomeCharles]

as some one who is voting leave I will try to explain...

1st expert...ok that is valid point

2nd expert....ok you just said exactly the same

3rd expert.....ok, do any of these experts actually have anything different to say other than the sky is about to fall in, and they wont be as rich.

4th expert....sigh....just sigh

I’m sorry but I can’t even fathom your thought process here. Why on earth would you think that several different experts coming to the same conclusion means they’re all probably wrong?

 

[SomTervo]

To be fair, this group would also be hit harder by immigration, since those jobs can more easily be replaced by cheaper workers from Eastern Europe.

That group have the fewest immigrants in their communities compared to everywhere except the deepest countryside.

They are not impacted by immigration.

Also 'cheap workers from Europe taking jobs' is the fault of employers, not the immigrants themselves.

I’m sorry but I can’t even fathom your thought process here. Why on earth would you think that several different experts coming to the same conclusion means they’re all probably wrong?

lol, elegantly put

 

[milanbaros]

I’m sorry but I can’t even fathom your thought process here. Why on earth would you think that several different experts coming to the same conclusion means they’re all probably wrong?

Apparently their opinion is only valid if they disagree with other experts. It is 1, max 2, experts per opinion or we are in conspiracy territory.

 

[SomTervo]

So Vote Leave posted footage of a brawl in Turkish parliament as a reason to leave the EU, and then doctored the footage with sound effects.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...n-turkey-video-doctored-screams-a7092191.html

Yeesh

Apparently their opinion is only valid if they disagree with other experts. It is 1, max 2, experts per opinion or we are in conspiracy territory.

It's just like the "97% of world scientists say climate change is an issue".

97% just makes me believe them less. That's just how it works

 

[HazySaiyan]

as some one who is voting leave I will try to explain...

1st expert...ok that is valid point

2nd expert....ok you just said exactly the same

3rd expert.....ok, do any of these experts actually have anything different to say other than the sky is about to fall in, and they wont be as rich.

4th expert....sigh....just sigh

and what are we up to know...1300 or some daft number........it feels completely like a stitch up, all saying the same....they wont be as rich and we will be poorer, and if we really upset them they are going to take their ball and leave....

Threats never work well

I'm sorry what? So because most experts on a subject agree with each other it must be some sort of stitch up? That makes no sense.

 

[Tak3n]

I don't understand. The experts have such a universal consensus that...? They're lying? They're conspiring with one another? If it were one or two experts, you'd believe them, but such a glut is somehow unreliable?

Remain can not have it both ways, any expert that did not see the 2008 crash can not now come out with all the drivel, as they failed to see the biggest crash coming...

does not work...you can not claim both...I am a expert, but oops sorry did not see 2008.

 

[CCS]

We *have* a decent team. Just happens it is the Welsh team for a change. #bettertogether

Edit: so much for a quiet day, just got invaded by two coach loads of old ladies from the Rhondda. If I get a word in edgeways I'll ascertain their voting intentions. Fat chance.

For a change? You've been better than us since the millenium :'(

 

[Kabouter]

Remain can not have it both ways, any expert that did not see the 2008 crash can not now come out with all the drivel, as they failed to see the biggest crash coming...

does not work...you can not claim both...I am a expert, but oops sorry did not see 2008.

So why also ignore experts that did see the 2008 crash coming?

 

[lastplayed]

And so do the majority of people in the 4 countries.

As far as I know it's an issue for the UK, Australian, Canadian and New Zealand governments and not the EU to sort out.

The UK government certainly isn't helping with their new rules about minimum earning limits on visa applications for people from outside the EU and the annual surcharge for using the NHS.

Oh yeah I remember those crackdowns. This is good:

The poll is the latest in a series sparked by the call made by London mayor Boris Johnson on his visit to Australia in 2013 for a “free labour mobility zone” between the two countries.

You've already got a free mobility zone Boris!

 

[Tak3n]

So because a majority of knowledgeable people agree on something - something that contradicts your viewpoint - it's better to write it off as a conspiracy rather than accept that maybe they know what they're talking about?

2008, ask yourself, where were your so called experts then...

 

[danowat]

I know it's satire, but I agree!

Leading Brexit campaigners coincidentally a shower of c*nts

http://newsthump.com/2016/02/23/leading-brexit-campaigners-coincidentally-a-shower-of-cnts/

Meanwhile the c*nt-strewn Brexit campaign received a boost as Shrewsbury MP, Daniel Kawczynski, is set to join.

Williams added, “The jury is still out on whether Mr Kawczynski is a c*nt but our initial analysis suggests he’s more of a wankstain.”

 

[jufonuk]

Tak3n is back to trolling then?

 

[ClosingADoor]

That group have the fewest immigrants in their communities compared to everywhere except the deepest countryside.

They are not impacted by immigration.

Also 'cheap workers from Europe taking jobs' is the fault of employers, not the immigrants themselves.

That's true also. Areas with less immigration tend to be more negative about it. But over here it definitely had some impact, with Polish workers coming and doing cheap farm work. Then again, most native people refused to do the work anyway, so it might balance out a bit.

Remain can not have it both ways, any expert that did not see the 2008 crash can not now come out with all the drivel, as they failed to see the biggest crash coming...

does not work...you can not claim both...I am a expert, but oops sorry did not see 2008.

Two separate things. The 2008 crisis came unexpected and people didn't see it coming. The Brexit is a clear event that you see coming and analyze the impact for by running the numbers.

I'm sorry what? So because most experts on a subject agree with each other it must be some sort of stitch up? That makes no sense.

If 90% of people vote Leave this week, we should ignore them, because there is clearly some conspiracy there!

 

[ferrasvansen]

2008, ask yourself, where were your so called experts then...

That is some revisionist history there, quite a lot of experts had predicted trouble ahead due to the banks, it was more a case of timing rather than if it would happen.

 

[HandsomeCharles]

Apparently their opinion is only valid if they disagree with other experts. It is 1, max 2, experts per opinion or we are in conspiracy territory.

I mean, to give some credit it's not as though general consensus is always correct. At one point in history it was preposterous to think the earth revolved around the sun, or that the world wasn't flat, so I'd say that having a questioning attitude is probably better than just accepting everything you see at face value.

That said, I don't think it applies in this case. True, the opinions are assumptions and hypothesis, but they come from people who's best interest is to get it right. An expert who is frequently wrong isn't normally called an expert.

 

[Tak3n]

Tak3n is back to trolling then?

no, I am not....can you not even see how that causes a issue....anyone who did not see 2008 can not be trusted..... it does not make you question it at all? you are happy just to let them off that

I can promise you one thing, if they were advocating leave, the remain camp would be saying exactly what I am

 

[Messofanego]

It's not just economic experts - its scientists, health services, trade unions, business, manufacturing, security etc. Overwhelming for remaining in EU.

Whenever an "expert" comes out for Leave (Dyson, JCB for example), they fall over themselves to mention them at every opportunity. Gove and co. have to use the anti-intellecrual ignorant "had enough of experts" line because their argument is based on half truths and lies.

Brexit being a hate campaign and how its subscribers react reminds me a lot of gamergate, even down to falling head over heels over anyone legitimate taking them seriously

 

[milanbaros]

I mean, to give some credit it's not as though general consensus is always correct. At one point in history it was preposterous to think the earth revolved around the sun, or that the world wasn't flat, so I'd say that having a questioning attitude is probably better than just accepting everything you see at face value.

That said, I don't think it applies in this case. True, the opinions are assumptions and hypothesis, but they come from people who's best interest is to get it right. An expert who is frequently wrong isn't normally called an expert.

I don't think it has ever been true that the more people who share an opinion means it is more likely to be wrong.

 

[ClosingADoor]

no, I am not....can you not even see how that causes a issue....anyone who did not see 2008 can not be trusted..... it does not make you question it at all? you are happy just to let them off that

I can promise you one thing, if they were advocating leave, the remain camp would be saying exactly what I am

Who is "they"? Or is that just anybody who works in finance or for the government?

And if Leave was clearly the economically sensible choice for Britain, then I think a lot of Remain people would have switched sides. But that is simply not the case.

 

[fanboi]

DId you say your good byes last night Tak3n?

 

[Heckler456]

I mean, to give some credit it's not as though general consensus is always correct. At one point in history it was preposterous to think the earth revolved around the sun, or that the world wasn't flat, so I'd say that having a questioning attitude is probably better than just accepting everything you see at face value.

To take some credit back, those things happened before the age of enlightenment kicked off.

But I get what you're saying, and you're right. Just not to the point where we should start doubting the majority opinion without any solid evidence.

 

[Principate]

So why also ignore experts that did see the 2008 crash coming?

For second there I thought this thread had reverted back in time we've had the exact same argument by Tak3n before with the exact same response.

 

[ittoryu]

no, I am not....can you not even see how that causes a issue....anyone who did not see 2008 can not be trusted..... it does not make you question it at all? you are happy just to let them off that

I can promise you one thing, if they were advocating leave, the remain camp would be saying exactly what I am

You keep ignoring some questions though... Some of this experts also warned us for 2008: are you ignoring them also? Why?

 

[Tak3n]

That's true also. Areas with less immigration tend to be more negative about it. But over here it definitely had some impact, with Polish workers coming and doing cheap farm work. Then again, most native people refused to do the work anyway, so it might balance out a bit.


Two separate things. The 2008 crisis came unexpected and people didn't see it coming. The Brexit is a clear event that you see coming and analyze the impact for by running the numbers.


If 90% of people vote Leave this week, we should ignore them, because there is clearly some conspiracy there!

sorry, so you are saying experts are only experts if they have a defined time line to work to...

that seems weak, so we should listen to them because we know the date of the referendum, but afterwards they are no longer experts as they can not see things coming?

 

[RedShift]

Tak3n sounding more and more like a creationist/climate change denier as we get closer to the vote.

 

[ferrasvansen]

You keep ignoring some questions though... Some of this experts also warned us for 2008: are you ignoring them also? Why?

yeah and a lot of those same experts are the ones giving the most serious warnings about Brexit, but frankly all logic has gone out of the window with many brexit voters and been replaced by finger crossing.

 

[ClosingADoor]

sorry, so you are saying experts are only experts if they have a defined time line to work to...

that seems weak, so we should listen to them because we know the date of the referendum, but afterwards they are no longer experts as they can not see things coming?

I'm saying that because one event was not predicted by a large amount of experts, that does not invalidate the analyses they run when tasked with predicting the outcome of a clearly defined issue.

I can fall down a flight of stairs by accident and get hurt. Just because I didn't predict I would fall last time, doesn't mean I don't know that it would hurt if I do a comparable thing like jumping from a bridge by my own choice.

 

[Tak3n]

Who is "they"? Or is that just anybody who works in finance or for the government?

And if Leave was clearly the economically sensible choice for Britain, then I think a lot of Remain people would have switched sides. But that is simply not the case.

TBF I said right from the get go, if we vote leave we are in for shit in the economy, but I dont think people should place such virtue in those experts who failed to see the biggest crash coming down the road

 

[SomTervo]

That's true also. Areas with less immigration tend to be more negative about it. But over here it definitely had some impact, with Polish workers coming and doing cheap farm work. Then again, most native people refused to do the work anyway, so it might balance out a bit.

More importantly, it's the farm owners who decided to employ cheaper labour and shirk local unemployed people. Immigrants only take these jobs because the opportunity is created by the prospective employers.

And employers do this because they are being squeezed from the top: supermarkets, sales legislation, etc.

TBF I said right from the get go, if we vote leave we are in for shit in the economy, but I dont think people should place such virtue in those experts who failed to see the biggest crash coming down the road

That biggest crash was practically impossible to see because it was obscured by design by the people who orchestrated it. The crash only happened once the bond values were published publicly, which very few could/wanted to look into beforehand.

You're conflating like 20 different really complicated scenarios in this thread and somehow puttying it into a 'we should leave the EU' narrative

Every line I've seen from people who actually studied the EU and global economics/policy/politics say we should stay. These people spent 8 hours a day for 4–7 years reading every fact about these topics they could and analysing them. Don't those people warrant some trust? The 'experts' you're labelling will also be people who have scrutinised this stuff for years, decades even. They're called experts for a reason. Of course you can get false experts, but when it comes to television and public eye, 'expert' doesn't get bandied about lightly.

 

[FlammableD]

Tak3n sounding more and more like a creationist/climate change denier as we get closer to the vote.

nah, he's just a tory's wet dream. you see his manifesto last week?

 

[cabot]

I've been mostly ignoring everything Tak3n says, but I'm genuinely upset he had the audacity to come back after my Threxit joke.

You've got some nerve, chap. That's my expert opinion.

 

[Heckler456]

TBF I said right from the get go, if we vote leave we are in for shit in the economy, but I dont think people should place such virtue in those experts who failed to see the biggest crash coming down the road

I'm wondering, what kind of expertise do you claim to posses to be able to determine what should and shouldn't be possible to foresee?

 

[Tak3n]

I'm saying that because one event was not predicted by a large amount of experts, that does not invalidate the analyses they run when tasked with predicting the outcome of a clearly defined issue.

Agree, but neither should you place such value as this thread seems to imply, all I see is insults for anyone who dares to question these 'experts'

when in reality we should be challenging them, we should never be afraid to ask why now they are right, rather than believing what they say

 

[MassiveNights]

So Vote Leave posted footage of a brawl in Turkish parliament as a reason to leave the EU, and then doctored the footage with sound effects.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...n-turkey-video-doctored-screams-a7092191.html

I'm no expert so I am 100% correct that this is dishonest.

 

[TyrantII]

Leaving is the equivalent of putting a gun to your head and pulling the trigger.

The GOP did this twice in the US refusing to raise our debt ceiling (which basically just is a means to continue to pay debts we already incurred).

From what I gather the Leave vote is primarily supported from Racists and Xenophobes that equate immigration with a lack of blue collar jobs. Something that has long persisted in people's minds, but has little to no evidence to support.

Not that there probably isn't inequalities to membership. But burning the whole house down to get rid of a few wasps is a very [ Southern] American thing to do.

 

[Ashes]

no, I am not....can you not even see how that causes a issue....anyone who did not see 2008 can not be trusted..... it does not make you question it at all? you are happy just to let them off that

I can promise you one thing, if they were advocating leave, the remain camp would be saying exactly what I am

No.

 

[Principate]

no, I am not....can you not even see how that causes a issue....anyone who did not see 2008 can not be trusted..... it does not make you question it at all? you are happy just to let them off that

I can promise you one thing, if they were advocating leave, the remain camp would be saying exactly what I am

This is some flawed as reasoning someone was wrong once begord we must now ignore everything they say. Everyone is wrong at some point, if we ignored the opinions that was ever incorrect about a subject there's be No one to listen to. It's why you look at the consensus of opinions why they were wrong at that point, is that applicable to this context, have they changed or evolved opinions based on being incorrect, does prediction seem feasible etc, you don't simply outright ignore them.

 

[HazySaiyan]

Agree, but neither should you place such value as this thread seems to imply, all I see is insults for anyone who dares to question these 'experts'

when in reality we should be challenging them, we should never be afraid to ask why now they are right, rather than believing what they say

There's a difference between challenging an expert opinion and just outright dismissing it because it disagrees with your worldview.

 

[affleck1981]

I mean, to give some credit it's not as though general consensus is always correct. At one point in history it was preposterous to think the earth revolved around the sun, or that the world wasn't flat, so I'd say that having a questioning attitude is probably better than just accepting everything you see at face value.

That said, I don't think it applies in this case. True, the opinions are assumptions and hypothesis, but they come from people who's best interest is to get it right. An expert who is frequently wrong isn't normally called an expert.

Interestingly - and perhaps pertinently - the 'experts' have always pretty much thought the world was round. Aristotle and Pythagoras were pretty much the first to work it out and Stephen Jay Gould has said that 'all major medieval scholars accepted the earth's roundness'.

I now have an image of Tak3n in medieval times, wearing a Jester's outfit talking about how the experts are wrong about their round earth theory...