I'd actually argue that Virtua Fighter was.
Mai Shiranui from KOF joins DOA5LR in September
- Thread starter raven777
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I'd actually argue that Virtua Fighter was.
Eolz
Member
It's a bit more complicated than that. SNK could have made that task easier with outsourcing and recruiting more, not trying to learn everything for this game, etc.
DOA didn't reuse everything from before, a lot of work went into DOA5, whether it's engine, redesigning every character, rebalancing, etc... and making that work on the previous gen.
Both deserve praise for what they did, but SNK also deserves criticism on what they didn't do yet. KOFXIV's gameplay looks fantastic and they've improved a lot of things on the graphics side since the reveal, but their lighting and textures are still really bad.
Non fighting game characters really don't fit in this kind of game.
Plus they already gave Kokoro a Tifa-like outfit ahah
I'd personally really hate it. I would like a big new crossover, but not something to replace DOA or make it too different.
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
DoA becoming Smash levels of crossover
As a game cross over, it was, but no VF character is more fitting than Mai.
But Dissidia Final Fantasy is a fighting game.
Eolz
Member
But Dissidia Final Fantasy is a fighting game.
Oh yeah lol I meant for being in DoA!
Darth_Caedus
No longer canonical
Welp just looked at all the Street Fighter V girls. Guess I know what I'm buying now lol
Troubled Bat
Member
I kinda want more guests to appear now. Lol
And the quoted part of the interview tells you exactly why they chose not to. Going further, in the rest of the interview with Neo-G himself, they talk about how he misses the old ways of working:
Neo_G: said:
It's not like they weren't away of other avenues. Surely these vets of the industry have worked along side other games over the years, and know of all of this, right? But the passion they're putting into the game is exactly the kind of thing someone like Neo-G was looking for. They're looking forward to building close-nit teams that know each other inside out. I love the fact they're looking at this one product as part of years of development, rather than just something they're involved with in the immediate future, y'know?
Yup, and they went from Itagaki's Team Ninja, to the Hayashi version. But they have WAY more in their shared libraries, such as work from the Atelier series, the Warriors games, etc. And again, they still have a lot of stuff they're building off of, rather than from near scratch.
You can tell the work established before modern DOA is of a different quality than things made for the recent games. And they still get a lot of work out of re-using stages from older DOA games, too, even in this later DLC.
The criticism is just often overblown. It's too early to say in definite ways before XIV is out and complete, but so far, I feel like the minor grievances we're going through in XIV could very well be worth what we gain in exchange.
I do think KT is one of the better JP companies at playing the trade in graphics resources VS gameplay, too. The Warriors series are never the BEST looking games around, but I'm constantly impressed at what they DO manage to do with armies of characters on screen. They have a sense of scale to their conflicts that only JRPGs or Platinum games normally rival.
Tifa was in Disiddia and Ehrgiez. I don't think it'd be horrible to see her and Sabin make their way to bigger fighting games, especially with solid moveset designers behind them. Cloud worked out nicely in Smash!
Eh, I dunno tbh. I mean, I can see how people could think that, with the way DOA is generally portrayed (as though DOAX were the mainline game at this point, and pretending the male characters don't exist)... but I think design-wise the Virtua Fighter characters and Dead or Alive characters have quite a lot of design overlap, even if (as ShinMaraku has shown) more direct inspiration was drawn in some cases from Mai. Mila for example doesn't look out of place as a new Dead or Alive entry, but also wouldn't have looked at all out of place as a new Virtua Fighter entry either (so long as Brad/Vanessa hadn't already been added).. I think this goes the same for many of the other characters as well.. and had for example none of them appeared in Virtua Fighter previously, and were actually debuting in DOA5LR (fully voiced of course), then they would have blended very well with the rest of the cast, as a more serious addition, in the way that someone like Christie was when added in DOA3. It's not like all the female characters in DOA were always of the sillier Marie Rose, Honoka, Kokoro style personalities. Hell even Kokoro could be taken relatively seriously in DOA4.
Mai only really fits at a very surface level. We're already seeing questions raised in this thread like "how will she even play in this?", due to how fundamentally incompatible everything else about the character would appear to be. Whereas the Virtua Fighter characters required almost no significant alterations to blend comfortably with the rest of the cast, in a way that makes them easy to forget as even being guests. Right from back in the DOA1 / VF2 days, the characters have always looked like you could literally drop them into each others games, or mash them together Fighter's Megamix style. It's not at all a surprise that the Virtua Fighters were the first guests to appear, or the ones that were most commonly considered before the fact.. as they quite honestly make the most sense at pretty much every level. Jann Lee vs Jacky, Akira vs Kokoro, Tina vs Wolf, Christie vs Lion, etc... they were always perfect candidates across the board, not even on a singular character level. It's almost Capcom vs SNK levels of perfect... which is also another more perfect crossover in gaming actually.
EDIT: As an additional example. Akuma at a surface level fits in perfectly with Tekken's Mishimas. However you don't just see him and Heihachi just standing back-to-back looking tough.. at some point he's gotta actually fight, and that's where it all begins to break down, because the character's fighting style and moves become a part of their personality, and Akuma immediately becomes recognisable as a Street Fighter character on vacation in Tekken's world. This never really happens in Capcom Vs SNK, as not only are Street Fighter and SNK characters stylistically rather compatible, but everything that makes them characters beyond just their sprites were too. Even at a superficial level this is seemingly somewhat of an issue with Mai, where people here are saying that the conversion into Dead or Alive's engine has left her looking a bit like Momiji in cosplay. The Virtua Fighter characters also had to be altered to be placed into Dead or Alive... but they all look unmistakably like their original selves still.. because their original selves were already quite similar to the looks of DOA5 characters. This certainly wouldn't have been the case if a bunch of Tekken characters had guested instead.
OmegaDL50
Member
I said this before but.
The team working KOFXIV at SNK has very little if any experience in 3D, The director even admitted this in a few interviews. The fact they opted to create their own original engine to improve their knowledge of making 3D graphics can only lead to improvement.
Compared to Team Ninja who have been making 3D Action Games and Fighters for YEARS.
A studio that has many more years experience in releasing 3D games can put out a better looking 3D game, This really shouldn't be a surprise to you.
NeonZ
Member
I never got why Ivy is a fan favorite. She dresses in fan-service outfits, but her face is kind of ugly compared to the others. Any of the other girls are prettier and you can dress them up in the last two games, so her default outfit is pretty irrelevant.
Just look at this shot showing Ivy with Amy's costume compared to the actual Amy (Soul Calibur IV).
Vlaphor
Member
Keep in mind that matching the outfit to the person is important. Anyone can looked messed up in the wrong clothes.
This is her looking amazing in SC IV
This as well, though not in game
and this is her best outfit in SC V
These all look much better than her in someone else's clothes, because the costumes were designed around the character. Anyway, we should totally have Ivy in DOA.
She's not ugly per se, she just looks more mature. Much like Cervantes her father, she's grown from a younger woman seeking power, to an older, more scared and evil-ish persona. That's pretty appealing in a genre that continues to throw Anna and Nina into Cryo-freeze almost every chance they get.
More mature females will never be as popular as the eternally-18~24 type, but considering many of the people who started playing these games years ago are now in their 30s or approaching / in their 40s, it's not unlikely that a concentrated group could appreciate females designs that aren't young enough to be their kids... (-___-; )
Who'd have thought that dressing a grown-ass mature woman up like a child may not look great?
Darth_Caedus
No longer canonical
Ivy would be cool. More femdom is a good thing.
I mean, okay yeah that makes sense and all, but if you're going to do a a kind of game that you've never attempted before, wouldn't it be reasonable to hire people who actually have experience in that area?
Yeah, she don't look that good with that get up, but I don't think that's a real flattering shot. Here's one where her face don't look so bad.
But more to your point regarding Ivy's popularity. It ain't really no mystery. There's two very huge reasons why she's popular...
sensui-tomo
Member
So how long till all of these characters get in Warriors Orochi 4. (seriously that game can have the entire DoA cast and it wouldnt be weird. well except for hanoka and marie rose)
OmegaDL50
Member
SAB SA's posts in this thread cover this reason. I can see why Director Oda would rather have the challenges of having his team learn a new facet of game development, especially the team is largely comprised of old guard SNK guys doing stuff like Fatal Fury / Garou and Art of Fighting. So there is that familiar environment of working with people you know. As opposed to simply throwing more people at the project and not get the same learned experience to improve in their next game without need of temp hires and layoffs.
Shiki?
Iroha might make a better fit in DOA as a Samurai Shodown rep.
Possibly Not work safe, so I'll put it in a censor.
And DOA continues it's rapid descent into the shittiness that is otaku-lead moe culture.
Man if I was still 15 years old and constantly horny though I'd be all over this.... . I'd love it if DOA could stop with the gimmicky guest characters and other nonsense and go back to what made me like it more than just the bouncing boobs - cool looking original (but derivative) characters duking it out in awesome open stages with an iota of seriousness coating the cheesecake.
Mai is great and all but she belongs in KOF ... and I don't know , I've NEVER liked guest characters much. Even when DOA5 first launched with some VF guests I thought it was a lame cash grab and it's only spiraled downhill from there.
Man if I was still 15 years old and constantly horny though I'd be all over this.... . I'd love it if DOA could stop with the gimmicky guest characters and other nonsense and go back to what made me like it more than just the bouncing boobs - cool looking original (but derivative) characters duking it out in awesome open stages with an iota of seriousness coating the cheesecake.
Mai is great and all but she belongs in KOF ... and I don't know , I've NEVER liked guest characters much. Even when DOA5 first launched with some VF guests I thought it was a lame cash grab and it's only spiraled downhill from there.
Valkyr1983
Banned
Dayyyumm
The reason I play games
Love doa for this
The reason I play games
Love doa for this
OmegaDL50
Member
And DOA continues it's rapid descent into the shittiness that is otaku-lead moe culture.
Man if I was still 15 years old and constantly horny though I'd be all over this.... . I'd love it if DOA could stop with the gimmicky guest characters and other nonsense and go back to what made me like it more than just the bouncing boobs - cool looking original (but derivative) characters duking it out in awesome open stages with an iota of seriousness coating the cheesecake.
Mai is great and all but she belongs in KOF ... and I don't know , I've NEVER liked guest characters much. Even when DOA5 first launched with some VF guests I thought it was a lame cash grab and it's only spiraled downhill from there.
You are aware that VF cast fits appropriately into DOA simply due to the fact their fighting mechanics are very similar for both games.
In fact the very first DOA arcade game uses the same Sega Model 2 Arcade Hardware that VF2 used, even to the point of both games using the same control scheme of a Guard / Hold, Punch, Kick in it's controls. Throws and attack chains in the way they were executed was near identical. The similarities were present beyond just being two different 3D fighting games.
Of course in recent years both games have deviated substantially, but the VF inclusion is not a mere cash grab as you claim, especially when you consider the arcade origins of DOA to begin with.
You claim you loved DOA for some of it's seriousness, but the fact simply is the game has always pandered even in the original releases on Saturn and PSX, with the tons of costume unlocks for most of the female cast, emphasizing them far more so in the CGI openings, boxart and adverts. The series has been consistent in this regard and has not changed much.
Eolz
Member
Tifa (and other RPG related characters) would make absolutely no sense in a regular fighting game. Cloud is in Smash only because it is a celebration of gaming history.
Regarding the rest: I've read the interview. I work in game dev (and on something asking to work on things from scratch), it doesn't make sense on doing that without people having expertise in this field. They have great designers and got some other great, but it isn't going to fix problems you have with graphics and engine related problems. They should have worked on this on parallel with something they knew how to do.
I'm not saying the final result won't be good, but it's a waste of potential and got them up on a bad foot.
No. DOA is not a "hey let's put every character from dead games in there!" game.
Namco has a different fighting game philosophy, better hope for them to work on SC6.
5 season passes and one character were released after launch, and there's a 50$ pack of costumes that was released before but wasn't included for free in this release. Still, you get about 400 costumes included.
And DOA continues it's rapid descent into the shittiness that is otaku-lead moe culture.
Man if I was still 15 years old and constantly horny though I'd be all over this.... . I'd love it if DOA could stop with the gimmicky guest characters and other nonsense and go back to what made me like it more than just the bouncing boobs - cool looking original (but derivative) characters duking it out in awesome open stages with an iota of seriousness coating the cheesecake.
Mai is great and all but she belongs in KOF ... and I don't know , I've NEVER liked guest characters much. Even when DOA5 first launched with some VF guests I thought it was a lame cash grab and it's only spiraled downhill from there.
I see Mai more as a cool hommage honestly, just like the VF ones, but on a lesser level.
They are cool additions that have good movesets and a different look, not sure how you can complain about that.
I mean, don't get me wrong, I can totally respect the idea of developers wanting to develop outside their comfort zone, but if the results are less than stellar? Kinda makes the whole thing moot, ya know? The road to hell is paved with good intentions and all that...
I already liked DoA, and now seeing it play matchmaker with Sega and SNK characters in their turf make me love it even more. One step closer to that dream crossover...
I skipped last Round after getting both DoA5 and DoA5U, since I was a bit concerned with the direction the likes of Marie Rose and Honoka implied, but this certainly makes me reconsider.
Wouldn't have happened, the original DoA1 only had 3 female characters and they were the minority, even if later promotional efforts put disproportionate focus on them that affected public perception of the series, and later its development, pretty much forever.
This isn't Project X Zone... (but I'm all for PXZ games adding SNK and Tecmo characters in the future)
I can't speak for the majority, but I always liked Ivy due to her weapon, whose impossible ability to change size and function during a match makes her an interesting character to use in her game - while making her a terrible fit for a game like DoA where people fight unarmed (Momiji had to lose her spear to fit in, but I'm not sure Ivy could get away with it).
Aesthetically, ivy being older is a nice distinguishing feature, but i personally prefer her military-themed alternate outfits to the dominatrix stuff she usually wears as defaults...
The Spartan in DoA4 basically used a lot of recycled moves from characters like Bayman, and I think some grenade toss.
For Mai, if they make her fan toss special simple enough to dodge, everything else from her huge history of game appearances should be able to fit in just fine, leaving the more outrageous stuff for DoA5's take on "supers" (which IIRC require life to be under 50% and let you aim where the victim can be pushed to in the stage) - it's how the game handled Hayabusa's energy attack, which he apparently uses in the Ninja Gaiden games nowadays.
DoA5 has moves that work and animate differently if characters are close to a wall, for example, and using a control system where buttons use double button presses, DoA can be played as if it has 4 buttons for strikes - weak and hard punch, weak and hard kick, not unlike the many SNK games that use just that - plus the buttons for holds and throws. Mai should be fine with some small adaptations.
Heck, Kasumi has what amount to teleporting dive kicks, so if that can work in her native engine, adapting Mai's aerial arsenal should be viable to some extent.
SF and its hardcore fans have a bit of a tendency to equate themselves with the entirety of fighting games and its fandom, so might be inclined to thing they don't need to bring anyone from outside their series/setting into their games, with exceptions being whole-game-themed crossover like CvS, MvC and SFxT.
I'm not expecting Capcom to want to bring in a guest, considering how they're handling their own characters in their flagship fighting series.
I skipped last Round after getting both DoA5 and DoA5U, since I was a bit concerned with the direction the likes of Marie Rose and Honoka implied, but this certainly makes me reconsider.
Wouldn't have happened, the original DoA1 only had 3 female characters and they were the minority, even if later promotional efforts put disproportionate focus on them that affected public perception of the series, and later its development, pretty much forever.
This isn't Project X Zone... (but I'm all for PXZ games adding SNK and Tecmo characters in the future)
I can't speak for the majority, but I always liked Ivy due to her weapon, whose impossible ability to change size and function during a match makes her an interesting character to use in her game - while making her a terrible fit for a game like DoA where people fight unarmed (Momiji had to lose her spear to fit in, but I'm not sure Ivy could get away with it).
Aesthetically, ivy being older is a nice distinguishing feature, but i personally prefer her military-themed alternate outfits to the dominatrix stuff she usually wears as defaults...
The Spartan in DoA4 basically used a lot of recycled moves from characters like Bayman, and I think some grenade toss.
For Mai, if they make her fan toss special simple enough to dodge, everything else from her huge history of game appearances should be able to fit in just fine, leaving the more outrageous stuff for DoA5's take on "supers" (which IIRC require life to be under 50% and let you aim where the victim can be pushed to in the stage) - it's how the game handled Hayabusa's energy attack, which he apparently uses in the Ninja Gaiden games nowadays.
DoA5 has moves that work and animate differently if characters are close to a wall, for example, and using a control system where buttons use double button presses, DoA can be played as if it has 4 buttons for strikes - weak and hard punch, weak and hard kick, not unlike the many SNK games that use just that - plus the buttons for holds and throws. Mai should be fine with some small adaptations.
Heck, Kasumi has what amount to teleporting dive kicks, so if that can work in her native engine, adapting Mai's aerial arsenal should be viable to some extent.
SF and its hardcore fans have a bit of a tendency to equate themselves with the entirety of fighting games and its fandom, so might be inclined to thing they don't need to bring anyone from outside their series/setting into their games, with exceptions being whole-game-themed crossover like CvS, MvC and SFxT.
I'm not expecting Capcom to want to bring in a guest, considering how they're handling their own characters in their flagship fighting series.
OmegaDL50
Member
The last time SNK outsourced a fighting game with 3D assets resulted in the Maximum Impact series.
I'd much rather have long time SNK devs who know the inner workings of some of the most notable 2D fighters that have worked on (Garou, Real Bout, KOF94 to 98), continue to do what they do well on top of learning a new skill, rather than what happened last time they let external talent work on the game.
Look you might not think KOF XIV looks good, but least it actually plays like a traditional KOF game, which in terms of the series history and being a mainline title is really what matters here for the series continued future success.
I definitely don't want SNK going back to near borderline bankruptcy after the exorbitantly expensive KOFXIII put them in that situation and them stuck doing Pachinko games to the point of irrelevancy.
The fact that Leyou Technologies acquired them, SNKP rebranded themselves back as just SNK and going in a direction that is reminiscent of their older games in terms of gameplay design is more than I could ask for.
Kayo Police
Member
The Ivy promo ad Namco had for SCV was amazing too.
Lots of plot there, wished I saved it when I had the chance.
Lots of plot there, wished I saved it when I had the chance.
It was just gross, really.
DOA5 is a big improvement to the plastic doll faces of the previous games. They do still look quite similar, but there are differences to define them.
Personally, I think Tifa as a character makes perfect sense within the fighting genre, due to how she's designed to be a brawler. If anything I'd argue that she actually appears more out of place in an RPG, despite originating there. As far as RPGs go, she seems like she'd better fit a Legend of Legaia style system designed around striking attacks.
PS4, at any point.
People tend to forget that Ivy has one of the best and most unique fighting styles in any fighting game, ever.
That always gets lost when people start talking about who iz da hottest.
Tons of people don't care who is the fairest one of all.
Eolz
Member
But that's still an established character having no reason of being in a regular fighting game. It'd be just as bad as the Star Wars characters in SCIV.
Some publisher could do some PSABR with random characters like this, but it's just missing the point of good crossovers (like PSABR did).
Updated gif with HD direct feed.
perfect
Thank you! I'll pick it up.
To me it feels like the only difference between the female characters is hair color, breast size, and in rare cases(like Marie), height
Well, I'm not really arguing for or against Tifa in DOA5 specifically (though I wouldn't mind). I'm more just saying that she doesn't appear out of place in fighters, because her established character is a fighter. In the RPGs she battles using her fists,/feet. She appeared in a fighting game less than two years after her original debut. She was specifically given a martial-arts combat scene in Advent Children as a highlight of her character, etc. Her established character is what causes her crossover into the genre to make sense, which is at odds with most of the other characters she stars alongside.
EDIT: Also, it's nothing like having a Star Wars character in Soul Calibur. That's the sort of battle that doesn't even begin to work on a fictional level. That's not even a genre problem (a Star Wars game in the style of SC would work fine), that's a universe issue like Mortal Kombat Vs DC and the like.
EYEL1NER
Member
Just getting a Warriors Orochi 4 alone would be enough for me to be happy but more guest characters are always good.