The Democratic National Convention OT |2016|: The One With the Policy

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Diffense said:
What she said was the she did not support the Colombian trade deal.
What she did as Secretary of State was lobby for said deal.

I don't care what she was "secretly thinking".
Someone suggested that she was merely being Obama's yeswoman so I pointed out that there were questions about the genuineness of her opposition back in 2008 and, regardless of how one wishes to spin it, she did support the deal later.
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When I worked at a call center I had to thank people for calling.

I wasn't grateful that they bugged me.
 
googleplex said:
One thing I kept hearing throughout this primary season from Bernie supporters was:

" I just can't understand why anyone would be excited to vote for Hillary."

After hearing Bill's speech I finally hope Bernie supporters understand that those of us who actually followed Hillary's career and not just meme's on Reddit. Now understand why we were and still are excited to support her.
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After some of the people MSNBC interviewed yesterday, I am convinced Bernie found a group of people that could not give two fucks about what actually needs to happen in this country but rather just latched on to the "political revolution" because they are outraged by the big bad government.
 
Diffense said:
What you should have asked is whether I've ever turned down job offers.
Making millions from Wall street from chatting, I'm sure Clinton could have "taken one" for her principles.
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No, seriously, have you ever had a job before? Your position is ridiculous and you obviously know nothing about the timeline of events otherwise you'd never make this post.
 
Diffense said:
What you should have asked is whether I've ever turned down job offers.
Making millions from Wall street from chatting, I'm sure Clinton could have "taken one" for her principles.
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You're now talking about something completely different than the rather silly point that you were making beforehand and refuse to acknowledge.
 
Diffense said:
A job she willingly accepted knowing it would involve departure from her "clear and firm" positions?
Still unprincipled.
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When the President asks, you accept.

Serves at the pleasure of the President. That's public service sometimes. Use your gifts to achieve a greater goal even if it does not align exactly with yours. It wasn't like she went along with some unholy plot.
 
Diffense said:
A job she willingly accepted knowing it would involve departure from her "clear and firm" positions?
Still unprincipled.
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That's what doing a job sometimes is. It's not unprincipled, it's getting things done for your employer who, in this case, happens to be the President of the United States who you ran against.

Lets say I love tea and hate coffee. My boss asks me to go out and get him a cup of coffee. I'm not going to go "No, fuck coffee so I'm not gonna do it." I'm gonna go out and buy that cup of coffee because that's what needs to be done.
 
Diffense said:
What you should have asked is whether I've ever turned down job offers.
Making millions from Wall street from chatting, I'm sure Clinton could have "taken one" for her principles.
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And she at first WAS reluctant to take the job of Secretary of State. But once she took the job she knew what that meant, such as working with the President not against him.

And nice attempt to change the subject.
 
Guys/Gals, some will never vote for Hillary. If you watched the RNC and now the DNC and your thought is to come to GAF and complain about how awful Hillary is, you probably aren't changing your mind.

Let them vote Stein or whomever. It won't matter in the end because most minorities aren't in the position to stand on some kind of perceived principle when Trump could be president.
 
The spin to apologize for HRC's vacillations is absolutely amazing. It's interesting that Obama also supposedly opposed the trade deal in 2008. So it would be quite funny if he "forced" HRC to lobby for it as president when she became secretary of state.

http://articles.latimes.com/2008/apr/09/nation/na-penn9

Her Democratic rival, Illinois Sen. Barack Obama, spoke to union members moments after Clinton left the stage, saying that he also is against the treaty, which President Bush sent to Congress on Monday. Obama said he opposed the pact "because when organizing workers puts an organizer's life at risk, as it does in Colombia, it makes a mockery of our labor protections."
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Some introspection by the "faithful" rather than defensiveness is necessary. The Democratic party establishment is losing people.
 
Diffense said:
A job she willingly accepted knowing it would involve departure from her "clear and firm" positions?
Still unprincipled.
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http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/...-nuclear-waste-dump-per-their-2014-tax-return

In 1998, then Representative Bernie Sanders cosponsored and actively ushered a bill through Congress that would allow Vermont and Maine to dump their nuclear waste in the poor disadvantaged Hispanic community of Sierra Blanca, Texas.

Three West Texan protestors went to Vermont to plead with then Representative Sanders that the dump site shouldn't be located in this poor minority community, Mr. Sanders told the three activists, "My position is unchanged and you’re not going to like it.” When asked if he would at least visit the proposed site in Sierra Blanca, he said: “Absolutely not. I'm gonna to be running for re-election in the state of Vermont."

“He didn't listen,” Curry said. “He had his mind made up."

...

Reading this article, I had a real sense that Mr. Sanders just didn't care about their concerns or the plight of this poor Hispanic community. It wasn't his community to care about. If history tells us anything about minority communities they seemingly always get the short end of the stick. Flint, MI is one such community that comes to mind. In this case, the community of Sierra Blanca didn't have any real political clout and they were reaching out to Mr. Sanders for help.

Mr. Sanders could have stood behind this very poor Hispanic community, but as his response to the protestors revealed, he chose the political expedient route. In this case, he didn't stand up for the less fortunate in Sierra Blanca.

Paul Wellstone would later call this injustice against the people of Sierra Blanca a case of "environmental racism”.

Mr. Sanders campaign for President is built around this grand premise of giving power back to the people. A political revolution by the people. When he had the opportunity to give power back to the poor Latino community of Sierra Blanca, he voted against the Wellstone amendments that would have given this community the real power they needed to fight back against environmental racism.
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I feel like I am doing whataboutism and I don't particularly like it, but your sanctimonious nonsense has just irritated me too much.

If you think Clinton is unprincipled, what the fuck do you think Sierra Blanca makes Sanders? Hell, he is still getting paid for it!

You will find no perfect candidate. All politicians have had to compromise or have simply changed their mind over the years, and maybe have even done some things that they have regretted. As for your claim that Clinton is unprincipled due to that free trade deal then you are basically calling everyone who works in government unprincipled because no one 100% agrees with what they do all the time.
 
Diffense said:
The spin to apologize for HRC's vacillations is absolutely amazing. It's interesting that Obama also supposedly opposed the trade deal in 2008. So it would be quite funny if he "forced" HRC to lobby for it as president when she became secretary of state.

http://articles.latimes.com/2008/apr/09/nation/na-penn9



Some introspection by the "faithful" rather than defensiveness is necessary. The Democratic party establishment is losing people.
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You gonna call Obama a liar too? Or are you going to acknowledge the fact that actually being in office forces you to make decisions that you at first thought you would never make?

But hey, I'm sure you're now going to tell us how you know better than Hillary and Obama.

Oh and BTW, the Democrats might be losing people, but they sure as shit are also gaining people and then some thanks to minorities that care less about some BS involving trade deals and more about being treated like actual human beings.

Where was the RNC/Libertarian/Green statement on Human Trafficking?
 
Diffense said:
The spin to apologize for HRC's vacillations is absolutely amazing. It's interesting that Obama also supposedly opposed the trade deal in 2008. So it would be quite funny if he "forced" HRC to lobby for it as president when she became secretary of state.

http://articles.latimes.com/2008/apr/09/nation/na-penn9



Some introspection by the "faithful" rather than defensiveness is necessary. The Democratic party establishment is losing people.
Click to expand...

Do you want to actually respond to your previous posts or are you just going to ignore what you posted earlier?
 
dLMN8R said:
A few things:

1) She supported TPP in its form when she was still Secretary of State. She's been out of that office for years, and the TPP has changed substantially since then. She obviously wants to review it more, and perhaps change it substantially, before it's ever implemented.

2) Obviously she voted for the Iraq war. Just like almost everyone except Sanders. Good on Sanders. But the fact that she (and everyone else) was completely misled by our Intelligence organizations is not an unimportant point. It was reprehensible, and not because she voted for it.

3) She has never been "against" a $15/hour minimum wage. She wanted to start with $12 - higher in some states with higher standards of living - and carefully roll in increased minimum wages as appropriate, pragmatically. Just like everything she's accomplished - she wanted to be pragmatic. And now, thanks to Sanders' support, she thinks $15 might be more attainable.

4) You need to read up about how corporate campaign contributions work. It's not like Citigroup went and outright donated $900,000 to her campaign. Citigroup's individual employees donated that money. And they donate roughly equal amounts of money to Republican candidates. Because individual employees have individual opinions and minds and choose to donate on their own volition.

5) Simply saying "Hillary is against Glass Steagall" is a classic case of missing the forest for the trees. As always, the story is more nuanced that that.

6) Yes, Hillary worked with Republicans. Specifically campaigning for Barry Goldwater. When she was 17-fucking-years-old. Don't pretend like you didn't have some stupid politica views when you were 17. Trying to undermine her compared to Bernie for this is just fucking ridiculous. Especially considering the fact that Bernie isn't even a Democrat

7) OH MY GOD GOVERNOR CLINTON KEPT THE CONFEDERATE FLAG??? 30 fucking years ago Do you realize how regressive the entire United States was 30 years ago?


"From the Huffington Post" is meaningless year. You're repeating a ridiculous, sensationalist blog post by an uninformed Bernie supporter and representing literally everything wrong with Bernie's movement - no nuance, no understanding of pragmatism, and no god damned fucking respect for her being one of the most genuinely accomplished liberal politicians to ever serve the United States.
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Can I save this post
 
TestOfTide said:
You gonna call Obama a liar too? Or are you going to acknowledge the fact that actually being in office forces you to make decisions that you at first thought you would never make?

But hey, I'm sure you're now going to tell us how you know better than Hillary and Obama.
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I only see excuses. This is a cult of personality.

Can I fucking trust what they say.
That's the only question that needs to be answered.
If not, they can fuck off.
 
Diffense said:
I only see excuses. This is a cult of personality.

Can I fucking trust what they say.
That's the only question that needs to be answered.
If not, they can fuck off.
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I trust Obama and Hillary to know a lot more than your arrogant self when it comes to actual policy.

Where was the RNC/Libertarian/Green statement on Human Trafficking?
 
Diffense said:
I only see excuses. This is a cult of personality.

Can I fucking trust what they say.
That's the only question that needs to be answered.
If not, they can fuck off.
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If you think Politics is strictly black and white, you don't understand how the system works, and are indicative of the biggest problems within our political system.
 
Diffense said:
I only see excuses. This is a cult of personality.

Can I fucking trust what they say.
That's the only question that needs to be answered.
If not, they can fuck off.
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Nobody can make you trust people. Ultimately if you have a personal dislike of Hillary not grounded on facts or events nobody can take that away from you.
 
Diffense said:
I can't keep track of all the spin. I'm keeping things focused on the record, which is clear.
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This is a message board based on a discussion. Either you have a discussion based on what you post, or you don't. I think myself and a few other people here are trying to figure out exactly what you mean, and you're doing a really terrible job trying to defend your points, because you're not, or at least you refuse to listen to the points presented to you and move on to something else. That's kind of shitty.
 
Diffense said:
I can't keep track of all the spin. I'm keeping things focused on the record, which is clear.
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Yeah, it's totally "spin" and has nothing to do with the fact that you're just some arrogant guy trying to claim to know more about decision making than the fucking Obama Administration.
 
neurosisxeno said:
If you think Politics is strictly black and white, you don't understand how the system works, and are indicative of the biggest problems within our political system.
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Spin everywhere. I didn't say anything about colors.
I said that if they'll say one thing and do the other or change their positions according to the prevailing political climate I have no way of knowing their actual stance.
 
Diffense said:
The spin to apologize for HRC's vacillations is absolutely amazing. It's interesting that Obama also supposedly opposed the trade deal in 2008. So it would be quite funny if he "forced" HRC to lobby for it as president when she became secretary of state.

http://articles.latimes.com/2008/apr/09/nation/na-penn9



Some introspection by the "faithful" rather than defensiveness is necessary. The Democratic party establishment is losing people.
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You're wrong. See, the people who really give a shit nitpicking minutia were never there to begin with.

Trade deals are complicated and nuanced? Shocker.

Diffense said:
Spin everywhere. I didn't say anything about colors.
I said that if they'll say one thing and do the other or change their positions according to the prevailing political climate I have no way of knowing their actual stance.
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It seems you are new to politics.
 
Read from bottom to top, but Mark Cuban offered his thoughts~
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KwdkQSp.jpg
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Diffense said:
I can't keep track of all the spin. I'm keeping things focused on the record, which is clear.
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Damn, I wish I had as easy a time as you do deflecting every rebuttals during discussions. Just say everything is Spin and people are just mindless fanatics, great arguments there.

Edit :
Diffense said:
Spin everywhere. I didn't say anything about colors.
I said that if they'll say one thing and do the other or change their positions according to the prevailing political climate I have no way of knowing their actual stance.
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Okay so you're just a troll, thanks for making it clear.
 
Diffense said:
Spin everywhere. I didn't say anything about colors.
I said that if they'll say one thing and do the other or change their positions according to the prevailing political climate I have no way of knowing their actual stance.
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Lol I'm pretty sure yall are being trolled
 
Diffense said:
Spin everywhere. I didn't say anything about colors.
I said that if they'll say one thing and do the other or change their positions according to the prevailing political climate I have no way of knowing their actual stance.
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You have no idea why someone may or may not have changed their stance so don't assume the reasons to be petty. Same thing with taking a stance and then having to take action contrary to that stance.
 
Jesus Christ at the comments on Bernie's Facebook posts. S4P has nothing on this salt.

I mean I can't even. Hundreds of top voted whinging comments.
 
TestOfTide said:
Yeah, it's totally "spin" and has nothing to do with the fact that you're just some arrogant guy trying to claim to know more about decision making than the fucking Obama Administration.
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LOL. Where did I claim that?

That's why I skip some of these posts then you guys follow up asking why I didn't respond.

I can't read minds so I have to take people at their word. If their word proves untrustworthy, they've lost credibility.

I said nothing about running for president or doing Obama's job.
Spin and ad hominen everywhere.
 
Diffense said:
LOL. Where did I claim that?

That's why I skip some of these posts then you guys follow up asking why I didn't respond.

I can't read minds so I have to take people at their word. If their word proves untrustworthy, they've lost credibility.

I said nothing about running for president or doing Obama's job.
Spin and ad hominen everywhere.
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Have you ever had a job? I don't think you've answered that yet.
 
Diffense said:
I only see excuses. This is a cult of personality.

Can I fucking trust what they say.
That's the only question that needs to be answered.
If not, they can fuck off.
Click to expand...
Trust is belief without question and no politician should get that from you, ever. I trust my parents, not civil servants. Those in government should be evaluated based on their record, what they have done and how that aligns with their public statements to form the most objective opinion possible. You go from there.

What, exactly, do you want the people you're arguing with to do here? What do you want to happen in November, Diffense?
 
Azzanadra said:
You know its bad when even a Randroid is showing preference to "socialist" Hillary Clinton. Then again, you don't want the endorsement of the guy who named his boat The Fountainhead.
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If a Republican endorses Hillary, I don't think that means she's a neocon or a Randian or whatever. It just means that they see that the very obvious point that Donald Trump is unfit to hold the presidency.
 
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