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[dark10x]

Far right doesn't want immigration, they want assimilation

I mean, if you're going to enter another country, I don't think it's unfair to take up many local customs and act according to societal norms in that country.

It's a fact that women are often mistreated in Middle Eastern societies at this point - should that suddenly be allowed in European countries too?

 

[Senoculum]

I've been actually reading some articles and watching some of Youtube videos about the subject about the intake of immigration/refugees in Europe the past 20 years or so. Sorry if I'm coming as very misinformed, but I'm trying grasp what's happening in Europe.

From what I comprehend, the difficulty of integrating immigrants in their culture, particularly to see them assimilate certain aspect of their culture, like secular libertarian ideology and also the quite common if I may terrorist attack in Europe are feeding a huge patch of people into the fear of the new arrivants, especially Muslims. Although the response to this anxiety is improperly expressed toward the wrong people in general (Muslims who in large have no implication with any extremist group or terrorist attack), is it right to totally dismiss people who raise any concern about the large influx of refugees/immigrants as racist/xenophobe? Isn't there's a valid concern that needs to be studied and addressed no matter how faint it may be?

Say what you will about the movie, but Batman v Superman asked a very good question and provided an even better answer: "Must there be a Superman?" -- "There is."

The fact of the matter is that the immigrants have already arrived. There here. And it's disingenuous to believe that most of them are content with their state of affairs. They left their livelihood and family members, and most of them perhaps lost friends or relatives. There's no hiding this. It's reality.

Any new policies that make them more disconnected than they already are will only serve against the EU, and the world's, interests. I personally live in Toronto and 50% percent of our city's population is immigrant born. Think about that. The closest the US can muster is Miami with 38% being immigrant born. How did we integrate them so well? Because a reliable person is infinitely more valued than a brilliant one.

We're not somehow better people, but our openness is unfortunately unique. You have Australia running "You will not make Australia home” advertisements, you have a British MP killed by a man shouting “Britain first.” Are these the proper courses of action? Fuck no.

On another matter, I don't see any global pressure towards Asia for accepting immigrants. Seoul Korea is a beautiful and modern place yet they only have like 120,000 immigrant born people. An abysmal number. Point being, there's a lot of avenues to address those "concerns" but shutting off borders is inhumane, period.

 

[hodgy100]

I'm right there with you OP I joined the UK labour party, in a feeble attempt to push back against the conservative party, but they are a shit tip too. I only see more austerity and more shitty conservative laws in my country's future.

 

[Lime]

Sho_Nuff82, the left and the center have provided solutions (some of them at least), but people are much more willing to vote for the "easy" solution ("these brown people are the problem and should simply be removed") than it is to vote for the complex and difficult solution ("we need to engage in dialogue and be more open towards differences and it will take time"). Blaming the left for voting for racist policies doesn't make sense in the sense that the voters themselves are the ones actively playing around with far right ideology because they are scared and cannot handle new experiences.

And "terrorist attacks" in the 70's were bigger than now. (and by now "terrorist attacks" mean "Muslims killing other people", just see the coverage of Münich shootings)

I mean, if you're going to enter another country, I don't think it's unfair to take up many local customs and act according to societal norms in that country.

It's a fact that women are often mistreated in Middle Eastern societies at this point - should that suddenly be allowed in European countries too?

1. You're implying that immigrants and refugees from Middle Eastern societies are misogynistic in their "culture" (as if they have one culture)
2. We already have laws in place to (on paper) ensure the principles of gender equality. This will of course need to be adapted to new challenges with multiculturalism, but it's not like societies will suddenly have to conform to misogyny or (a different form of) patriarchy.
3. European societies are quick to point out the patriarchal values in other countries and people identifying with other cultures, yet they themselves are quick to deny the patriarchal values in their own European societies (wage gap, paternity leave, sexual harassment, rape culture, etc.)

People from other countries are not that bad, they are simply just people, and it takes a lot of time to adjust. In that process we need to make sure that discrimination is minimized, welfare is there, safety net is there, and that co-existence, exposure to each other, and cooperation are fostered..

 

[Ekai]

This is all the left's fault.

The left gave a huge opening to the far right by refusing to admit: unfettered immigration might actually cause problems, terrorists will enter Europe while posing as refugees, Europe's wealth isn't unlimited, integration will be difficult, etc. etc.

First thing the left should do is: stop digging and admit there is a problem.

I'll never understand why immigration is the hill the European left decided to die on.

Why should anyone give any ground to these insane radicals? Their broadstroke beliefs are idiotic and vitriolic.

 

[Cynar]

There's nothing i fear more than the far right. It honestly keeps me up at night sometimes, every time there is a tragedy in the world and they spin it disgustingly in their favour and gain more support of the ignorant and scared it just chips away at me.

I'm thankful i live in Canada these days, though of course we're not immune from it. I'm from the UK and lived in American for awhile, before moving up here.

We had ten years of that crap thanks to Harper and there are still lots of Canadians that believe in the same ideology that the op is mentioning. Just look at the last federal election and see how much blue there still was on the maps. Pretty scary that so many people bought into Harpers fear bullshit. Luckily strategic voting won the day.

 

[DrunkShogun]

2 things that are a prevalent issue in all European countries at the moment are immigrants and Muslims. Right wing have latched onto this and become more vocal which has convinced new members to join as well as given confidence to more reserve individuals.

 

[dark10x]

1. You're implying that immigrants and refugees from Middle Eastern societies are misogynistic in their "culture" (as if they have one culture)
2. We already have laws in place to (on paper) ensure the principles of gender equality. This will of course need to be adapted to new challenges with multiculturalism, but it's not like societies will suddenly have to conform to misogyny or (a different form of) patriarchy.
3. European societies are quick to point out the patriarchal values in other countries and people identifying with other cultures, yet they themselves are quick to deny the patriarchal values in their own European societies (wage gap, paternity leave, sexual harassment, rape culture, etc.)

I was under the impression that women are indeed considered second class citizens in many Middle Eastern countries. Is that not the case? If so, I apologize, I was mistaken.

I also agree that many people are indeed unable to point out those values in their own cultures and it's awful but if a man murders his wife in Germany, it will not be forgiven as an 'honor killing'.

...but if I'm completely off base and most Middle Eastern women are indeed on equal footing with men, then again, I apologize. I am completely in the wrong if that's the case.

For the record, I have no issues with immigrants and, in fact, my wife and I have found ways to get involved with them here in Germany. We are also outsiders that have settled in Germany and trying to help those in need feel welcome. We just had dinner with a nice pair of young men from Syria this past week and it was a great time.

 

[Jacobi]

It's worrying me more that there isn't one (popular) party I could vote for in Germany.
That makes me a non-voter. Non-Immigration Parties are shitty, but "Immigration Parties" are as well.

 

[Abounder]

That's what happens when you fail at integrating/vetting millions of outsiders (refugees, or even Romani), all the while the 1% get richer while everyone else pays the price. Using labels like fascism doesn't do much to address the people's concerns. What can be done? Not much I'm afraid - big wheels are turning and things tend to go in cycles. There is no real European unity either.

 

[Griss]

This is all the left's fault.

The left gave a huge opening to the far right by refusing to admit: unfettered immigration might actually cause problems, terrorists will enter Europe while posing as refugees, Europe's wealth isn't unlimited, integration will be difficult, etc. etc.

First thing the left should do is: stop digging and admit there is a problem.

I'll never understand why immigration is the hill the European left decided to die on.

This. I'm not British but I remember how the immigration problem was left fester for years by Labour who simply refused to allow that discourse in public, allowing it to blossom into something that would later become the BNP, UKIP and ultimately Brexit.

Same thing happened across Europe with immigration over the previous five years, and now we're seeing a vicious swing to the right. It was so predictable, so fucking preventable. Gah!

 

[Condom]

Already doing that (anti-racism, labor laws, BLM, refugee solidarity, anti-fascist, etc.), but it's usually just peaceful stuff that doesn't seem to make any change, that politicians ignore or disregard and the people who need to be exposed to the messages are living far away from where we have protested or hold the gatherings.

Good to hear man. Yeah it can be disappointing if you're expecting change fast but keep in mind that you really don't have much control over things beyond what is humanly possible.

Every little thing like seeing people skeptical of refugees changing their opinion because of your work can give you a boost of morale. It's really amazing how you can have far-right voters change once you connect them with actual refugees and let them discuss their worries. Most of the time people just want to be heard.

 

[mnz]

2 things that are a prevalent issue in all European countries at the moment are immigrants and Muslims. Right wing have latched onto this and become more vocal which has convinced new members to join as well as given confidence to more reserve individuals.

I think it's more than that. There's a whole new type of right wing politics all over Europe. Being anti-muslim is definitely the current topic they're all using to gain support, but they are also very much anti-EU and authoritarian. It's like we got parties from the 19th century back that are in great support of nationalist militaristic monarchs. One reason why they're so in love with Russia.

 

[Night Angel]

Why should anyone give any ground to these insane radicals? Their broadstroke beliefs are idiotic and vitriolic.

This is why the left is losing ground in Europe. Not only because their policies didn't account for the realities of handling a massive influx of poor, potentially uneducated refugees, but because they refuse to recognize the issues that are rapidly becoming apparent and won't attempt to engage with the right on the issues.

This "everyone else is a stupid, racist, fascist asshole" mentality will not help when the left's naive ideas encounter problems during implementation. The people will notice this, and they'll work to change the government to fix those perceived issues while the left allows them to fester because they'd rather not "give any ground" by admitting there are problems.

 

[Lime]

I was under the impression that women are indeed considered second class citizens in many Middle Eastern countries. Is that not the case? If so, I apologize, I was mistaken.

I also agree that many people are indeed unable to point out those values in their own cultures and it's awful but if a man murders his wife in Germany, it will not be forgiven as an 'honor killing'.

...but if I'm completely off base and most Middle Eastern women are indeed on equal footing with men, then again, I apologize. I am completely in the wrong if that's the case.

For the record, I have no issues with immigrants and, in fact, my wife and I have found ways to get involved with them here in Germany. We are also outsiders that have settled in Germany and trying to help those in need feel welcome. We just had dinner with a nice pair of young men from Syria this past week and it was a great time.

Thanks, I appreciate you sharing that.

It is true that patriarchy exist in many Middle Eastern countries, but the point is that Islam and Mulisms are not a single entity and that Middle Eastern countries are not alike in their treatment of women. It is not something intrinsic to Islam as a religion or to Middle Eastern countries in themselves, but it is something to do with a confluence of class, geography, location, history, and so on. It's much more complex than just some religious text open for interpretation.

You can read these to get a quick overview:
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_female_political_leaders
2. http://www.theatlantic.com/internat...d-think-about-womens-rights-in-charts/275450/
3. http://www.gallup.com/poll/22180/issue-women-government-islamic-countries.aspx

Already here in Scandinavia, daughters of immigrants from the Middle East are the ones getting university degrees and moving up the social ladder.

 

[Ekai]

This is why the left is losing ground in Europe. Not only because their policies didn't account for the realities of handling a massive influx of poor, potentially uneducated refugees, but because they refuse to recognize the issues that are rapidly becoming apparent and won't attempt to engage with the right on the issues.

This "everyone else is a stupid, racist, fascist asshole" mentality will not help when the left's naive ideas encounter problems during implementation. The people will notice this, and they'll work to change the government to fix those perceived issues.

Oh puh-lease. The right-wing is merely extremely insular. It's a reaction against an other and a desire to remain sheltered/within your own group of people. It's such an extreme desire that the far-right cares very little about the humanity of anyone outside their own ethnic groups. To sugar coat it or deflect it as you have is to ignore the greater problem here and to let it continue to fester. This kind of mentality deserves to be called out for what it is.

 

[Jenenser]

I don't want to be the pessimistic type, but I've heard this song and dance over and over again. "Wait for the old people to die out" everyone keeps saying, yet we see that this is never enough and the young people of yesterday just become the old people of yesterday.

but its true, society did gradualy get better over time with each generation and more knowledge. we can see change, its probably just not fast enough for your liking. admittedly, its a slow gamemechanic.

 

[Dubbedinenglish]

I mean, if you're going to enter another country, I don't think it's unfair to take up many local customs and act according to societal norms in that country.

It's a fact that women are often mistreated in Middle Eastern societies at this point - should that suddenly be allowed in European countries too?

This doesn't apply to other minorities so why would this "problem" be exclusive to Muslims. Again you don't see legislation against other minority clothing or culture, this comes from the same bigoted view that everything and everyone who is and looks Muslim is inherently bad.

Assimilation has to happen or multiculturalism in Europe is never going to work. The refugees moving to Europe must embrace secularism or they'll fall into the same trap that broke their home countries in the first place.

No because the underlying racism is not being engaged as it is. "Only let Christians in" is being thought as a legitimate policy.

 

[dark10x]

Thanks, I appreciate you sharing that.

It is true that patriarchy exist in many Middle Eastern countries, but the point is that Islam and Mulisms are not a single entity and that Middle Eastern countries are not alike in their treatment of women. It is not something intrinsic to Islam as a religion or to Middle Eastern countries in themselves, but it is something to do with a confluence of class, geography, location, history, and so on. It's much more complex than just some religious text open for interpretation.

You can read these to get a quick overview:
1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_female_political_leaders
2. http://www.theatlantic.com/internat...d-think-about-womens-rights-in-charts/275450/
3. http://www.gallup.com/poll/22180/issue-women-government-islamic-countries.aspx

Already here in Scandinavia, daughters of immigrants from the Middle East are the ones getting university degrees and moving up the social ladder.

Cool, I'll give those a read! Thanks!

 

[Night Angel]

Lime, I think most of us know that a confluence of many factors is what builds the culture of a region. His point was not that Islam itself preaches inequality between men and women (though it certainly doesn't teach equality in that regard), his point was that the cultures many of these men were brought up in have that element of inequality. Which, as I saw from living in the Middle east for 10 years, is most certainly prevalent in many Middle Eastern countries. It may not be every person in every country, but there is a much higher concentration of attitudes/laws restricting women's rights in the Middle East than we see in Western countries.

Acting like it isn't an issue won't help here. Europe needs to recognize these cultural differences and work to educate and assimilate these people on the modern Western values in this space.

 

[Jacobi]

Oh puh-lease. The right-wing is merely extremely insular. It's a reaction against an other and a desire to remain sheltered/within your own group of people. It's such an extreme desire that the far-right cares very little about the humanity of anyone outside their own ethnic groups. To sugar coat it or deflect it as you have is to ignore the greater problem here and to let it continue to fester. This kind of mentality deserves to be called out for what it is.

LOL to remain sheltered? There aren't any bigger West European cities which don't have immigration. This is more about Europe not becoming as shitty as Molenbeek or Luton and comes from years of bad migration politics. The problem existed before the migrant crisis last summer.

 

[And_Gignac]

[neo] Liberals and their economic excesses. They have weakened the power of states here and there, increasing economic inequality and thus allowing far right bullshit to become attractive to people who need a (racist / xenophobic) boogeyman to vent.

 

[mnz]

LOL to remain sheltered? There aren't any bigger West European cities which don't have immigration. This is more about Europe not becoming as shitty as Molenbeek or Luton and comes from years of bad migration politics. The problem existed before the migrant crisis last summer.

Is that avatar ironic? Gysi is a huge proponent of immigration into Germany.

 

[Jacobi]

Is that avatar ironic? Gysi is a huge proponent of immigration into Germany.

I like his other policies, but he is and was blind regarding immigration. And even Wagenknecht is realistic about it, although she remained silent about this for a long time. Saw her speaking earlier this year and her tone was a lot different.

 

[Royal_Phalanx]

Funny how mainly US liberals on a liberal forum will blame the 'left' and just make excuses on why people vote for the far right. Maybe most of the people voting for the far right are simply assholes who just want 'simple' solutions. Maybe they're mostly not rational people? The root of the problem stemmed from the use of cheap labor to boost the economy (such a 'leftist' thing to do, it was cold hearted economics, and not idealism that made this choice)) whilst not expecting them to stay. A lot of them stayed. No real effort has been made by anybody to make them part of society.

0:00-0:32 of this video is pretty telling. The current situation is startlingly similar to this time in the Roman Republic. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODI1VOOoey0

I believe trying to keep cultural homogeneity is a bad idea, and it's long gone in Western society anyway. Deal with it, multiculturalism is here to stay in the West and you should solve the associated problems rather than opt to support demagogues. Work to educate and assimilate the newcomers rather than just say 'close the borders', and that foreigners can go fuck themselves.

 

[AxelFoley]

You have Australia running "You will not make Australia home” advertisements.

Aborigines must get a chuckle out of that.

 

[Lime]

Lime, I think most of us know that a confluence of many factors is what builds the culture of a region. His point was not that Islam itself preaches inequality between men and women (though it certainly doesn't teach equality in that regard), his point was that the cultures many of these men were brought up in have that element of inequality. Which, as I saw from living in the Middle east for 10 years, is most certainly prevalent in many Middle Eastern countries. It may not be every person in every country, but there is a much higher concentration of attitudes/laws restricting women's rights in the Middle East than we see in Western countries.

Acting like it isn't an issue won't help here. Europe needs to recognize these cultural differences and work to educate and assimilate these people on the modern Western values in this space.

No disagreement here in terms of upholding liberal democratic principles of gender equality in the face of obvious gender discrimination. But these things take time and are not simply fixed overnight. Hell, it may even take a whole generation of a family if not longer until ingrained attitudes and beliefs are open to other ideologies and worldviews.

But just because of cultural differences between segments of the population exist doesn't mean that "enough is enough, throw these people out!" or "I won't hire anyone with a foreign-sounding name", or "all people from the Middle East are misogynist patriarchs" should be catered to or adopted.

We have laws in place, we have measures in place, and if those are not sufficient, we'll find new solutions to living with one another and ensure the equality and humanity in our societies. I know it's a hard and difficult task, but this is not an excuse to turn to the far right's easy and unrealistic solutions rooted in racism and xenophobia.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

Why should anyone give any ground to these insane radicals? Their broadstroke beliefs are idiotic and vitriolic.

Again, if your answer is "There is no refugee problem, get fucked", you're not going to win any elections that way.

This doesn't apply to other minorities so why would this "problem" be exclusive to Muslims. Again you don't see legislation against other minority clothing or culture, this comes from the same bigoted view that everything and everyone who is and looks Muslim is inherently bad.

There is less of a culture clash for migrants coming from other regions. There is factually more in common with say, a US, UK, or Canadian citizen moving to Germany than (for example), a person born and raised in Egypt or Syria. It is not racist to realize this. There are things that the West has grown accustomed to (women in all levels of education and employment, women in scant clothing, pre-marital sex, freedom of speech that includes blasphemy, apostasy) that some people are simply not prepared to deal with when they are transplanted thousands of miles away.

Sho_Nuff82, the left and the center have provided solutions (some of them at least), but people are much more willing to vote for the "easy" solution ("these brown people are the problem and should simply be removed") than it is to vote for the complex and difficult solution ("we need to engage in dialogue and be more open towards differences and it will take time"). Blaming the left for voting for racist policies doesn't make sense in the sense that the voters themselves are the ones actively playing around with far right ideology because they are scared and cannot handle new experiences.

I blame the left for ignoring the evidence that the refugee situation was unsustainable (no safety net can exist in perpetuity fully funded, after all), and for trying to sweep instances of minorities abusing their status as a protected class under the rug for the sake of a false peace.

These things backfired, and they backfired hard.

And "terrorist attacks" in the 70's were bigger than now. (and by now "terrorist attacks" mean "Muslims killing other people", just see the coverage of Münich shootings)

I don't think you're going to win over any voters by telling them that Nice wasn't a big deal.

 

[Royal_Phalanx]

Europe has perfectly fine migration laws. Just apply them properly if people keep fucking up repeatedly. Nobody is applying the current practices in place. I still don't see why voting for a Trump-like demagogue will solve anything.

 

[Jacobi]

I believe trying to keep cultural homogeneity is a bad idea, and it's long gone in Western society anyway. Deal with it, multiculturalism is here to stay in the West and you should solve the associated problems rather than opt to support demagogues. Work to educate and assimilate the newcomers rather than just say 'close the borders', and that foreigners can go fuck themselves.

So in your opinion if you have a problem you should enlarge the problem before solving it.

I don't really get why a nation should need uneducated foreigners.

 

[Condom]

We have strict immigration laws etc already in the Netherlands and no terrorist attacks yet the far right is still doing well, with the rightwing conservatives (largest party) now copying their rhetoric.

Some European countries are indeed behind in this 'tough on immigration' stuff but don't be fooled in thinking that will stop the far-right because it wont. It's a battle of ideologies, not policies.

 

[mnz]

Funny how liberals on a liberal forum will blame the 'left' and just make excuses on why people vote for the far right. Maybe most of the people voting for the far right are simply assholes who just want 'simple' solutions. Maybe they're mostly not rational people? The root of the problem stemmed from the use of cheap labor to boost the economy (such a 'leftist' thing to do) whilst not expecting them to stay. A lot of them stayed. No real effort has been made by anybody to make them part of society.

0:00-0:32 of this video is pretty telling. The current situation is startlingly similar to this time in the Roman Republic. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODI1VOOoey0

I believe trying to keep cultural homogeneity is a bad idea, and it's long gone in Western society anyway. Deal with it, multiculturalism is here to stay in the West and you should solve the associated problems rather than opt to support demagogues.

It's just not that simple. They aren't all stupid. They see problems and governments without solutions. That's how the new right gets the votes and that is absolutely where many politicians in power (not just "the left") failed to do their job and are passively helping these new rightwing politicians get into power.

Also, and that's one big big problem of current parties in power, multiculturalism is a brush that's just too broad. The problems are more specific.

"Cultural homogeneity is a bad idea" is the stance of most parties in power, but in a democracy you should have an option for people who believe otherwise. Hopefully this position doesn't get many votes, but it's just a terrible idea to try to remove the option itself.

No disagreement here in terms of upholding liberal democratic principles of gender equality in the face of obvious gender discrimination. But these things take time and are not simply fixed overnight. Hell, it may even take a whole generation of a family if not longer until ingrained attitudes and beliefs are open to other ideologies and worldviews.

Another very real problem in Europe is that many 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants are more extreme than their parents and grandparents. So that's obviously not working out.

 

[Royal_Phalanx]

So in your opinion if you have a problem you should enlarge the problem before solving it.

I don't really get why a nation should need uneducated foreigners.

Does Europe take 'uneducated' foreigners anymore, or was that 20-30 years ago with the need to boost the economy? Sounds like it's your own native born populations descended from guest workers that are the problem. Pretty sure you need a job and skills to move to Europe now. Germany has a pretty strict citizenship law as well. They are now putting in new strict laws that make it easier to deport refugees. Does this stop the far right? Nope. Is this 'ignoring the problem'? Nope.

 

[Kinyou]

It's worrying me more that there isn't one (popular) party I could vote for in Germany.
That makes me a non-voter. Non-Immigration Parties are shitty, but "Immigration Parties" are as well.

It's sad that every party seems to dig in their heels one way or another. That the Linke critics Wagenknecht so heavily for even suggesting that we should know who is entering the country feels ridiculous. Like, there's no discourse there, she's instantly thrown in the same pot as the AFD

 

[Confrontation]

The stuff that was written on social media in Belgium about a Belgian 15yr old with Moroccan roots that died on vacation in Morocco was fucking nuts.

 

[Royal_Phalanx]

It's sad that every party seems to dig in their heels one way or another. That the Linke critics Wagenknecht so heavily for even suggesting that we should know who is entering the country feels ridiculous. Like, there's no discourse there, she's instantly thrown in the same pot as the AFD

Heard what she said, I don't get why what she said was wrong at all. More on the left need to say stuff like this.

 

[His Majesty]

I believe trying to keep cultural homogeneity is a bad idea, and it's long gone in Western society anyway. Deal with it, multiculturalism is here to stay in the West and you should solve the associated problems rather than opt to support demagogues. Work to educate and assimilate the newcomers rather than just say 'close the borders', and that foreigners can go fuck themselves.

I've seen a lot of people blame the state rather than the individual for the lack of integration of immigrants (and they are partly right). But it's difficult to achieve assimilation when left-wing parties keeps shooting down measures to enforce integration such as very basic language knowledge requirements, e.g. for social housing.

 

[spekkeh]

There are multiple reasons.

Europe consists of nation states, and immigration is eroding the nationhood, so we see an incompatibility of current reality with accepted cultural wisdom, causing cognitive dissonance among the more rigidly inclined.

The left has long been in denial or chosen keeping the peace over progressiveness, making a lot of people that ascribe to value ethics over utilitarianism drift to other places.

But above all we live in a mediacracy. People by and large don't vote far right out of a deep seated hatred for the brown man (though it undoubtedly plays a part), but out of boredom or annoyance over the slow pace of change. They want shit to hit the fan right now so they can eat their popcorn and see how it plays out on television. Whenever Trump, or who have you, says something stupid then sure it's stupid but it's entertaining. And this for a lot of people is more important than being right. Nobody likes a knowitall after all. A bag of crisps doesn't taste quite so good watching PBS than it does the Kardashians.

I think we need to rethink our democracy, and base it heavily on sortition.

 

[Royal_Phalanx]

Some far right parties like FN actually have pretty socialist economic policies. They just hate immigration in general. This appeals to the average poor person who's down on their luck and the status quo isn't improving their lot. So why not go back to the values of the past? I can understand them in a way, although I despise their politics.

 

[Jacobi]

Does Europe take 'uneducated' foreigners anymore, or was that 20-30 years ago with the need to boost the economy? Sounds like it's your own native born populations descended from guest workers that are the problem. Pretty sure you need a job and skills to move to Europe now. Germany has a pretty strict citizenship law as well. They are now putting in new strict laws that make it easier to deport refugees. Does this stop the far right? Nope. Is this 'ignoring the problem'? Nope.

1 million uneducated foreigners came in last year. I think 400k this year so far. Not all of them are refugees. Turkish people can go here visa-free if the Merkel-Erdogan deal follows through. People are coming from Libya everyday. And it's pretty easy to dodge deportation.

 

[His Majesty]

1 million uneducated foreigners came in last year. I think 400k this year so far. Not all of them are refugees. Turkish people can go here visa-free if the Merkel-Erdogan deal follows through. People are coming from Libya everyday. And it's pretty easy to dodge deportation.

Very easy, certainly if the country of origin refuses to co-operate. Last week an Algerian illegal stabbed two police officers in Belgium. He has been on the list for deportation a long time but the Algerian government isn't eager to take those people back.

 

[Royal_Phalanx]

1 million uneducated foreigners came in last year. I think 400k this year so far. Not all of them are refugees. Turkish people can go here visa-free if the Merkel-Erdogan deal follows through. People are coming from Libya everyday. And it's pretty easy to dodge deportation.

Dodge deportation? Sure, then have fun having no job and no money in a society that values wealth and consumer goods. Not sure it's really that easy. The 1 million sounds like illegal migration to me. In my view, legal and EU free movement migration isn't much of a problem in Europe because you need a job, housing and language skills for a job pretty much anywhere. Sounds like you need to make formal deals like Germany has been making with Morocco, etc. to take back their citizens.

 

[Jacobi]

Dodge deportation? Sure, then have fun having no job and no money in a society that values wealth and consumer goods. Not sure it's really that easy. The 1 million sounds like illegal migration to me. In my view, legal and EU free movement migration isn't much of a problem in Europe because you need a job, housing and language skills for a job pretty much anywhere. Sounds like you need to make formal deals like Germany has been making with Morocco, etc. to take back their citizens.

You still get money and rent from the state in Germany even if you don't go back and that' enough for a lot of people.

 

[Condom]

I've seen a lot of people blame the state rather than the individual for the lack of integration of immigrants (and they are partly right). But it's difficult to achieve assimilation when left-wing parties keeps shooting down measures to enforce integration such as very basic language knowledge requirements, e.g. for social housing.

You want people to live on the streets for not knowing the language now? How do you expect people to integrate/assimilate if they are excluded from society until they magically learn the language.

Unless you mean people having to do language courses while keeping their rights to social housing.

 

[mnz]

Dodge deportation? Sure, then have fun having no job and no money in a society that values wealth and consumer goods. Not sure it's really that easy. The 1 million sounds like illegal migration to me. In my view, legal and EU free movement migration isn't much of a problem in Europe because you need a job, housing and language skills for a job pretty much anywhere. Sounds like you need to make formal deals like Germany has been making with Morocco, etc. to take back their citizens.

German report from today: http://www.welt.de/regionales/nrw/a...on-Nordafrikanern-kann-Jahrzehnte-dauern.html

A German state home secretary basically saying it'll take 20 years to deport rejected Northern Africans to their home countries at the current speed.

And yes, 1 million refugees came to Germany last year. Have you missed the last 18 months?

edit: Not 1 million Syrian refugees

 

[Calm waterfall]

Thanks, Maxiell. I am comparing it in terms of the hysteria and fear mongering in regards to terrorism. People die everyday, in a much, much higher frequency, from issues that we usually are fine with or simply don't care about, yet when a terrorist attack occurs, everybody panics and throws billions of euros at something that is really hard to prevent, or they think that all Muslims should be thrown out, or they resort to abandoning the principles that people have fought for with their lives.

People don't lose their minds when they hear about the much higher amount of deaths caused by all kinds of things, yet they do so to the point of voting for far-right political parties when 'terrorism' is on the menu.



It wasn't about economics, but about how people are unhappy with the state of the life they have because of rising inequality and lack of social security, so they think that the culprit is refugees and immigrants, and therefore vote for parties who fuel this hate of the Other. Yet these parties are actively contributing to rising inequality and the dismantling of the institutions that ensure equality and social security (taxes of the wealthy, healthcare, education, public service, social mobility programs, etc.)

This is pretty dumb. You can´t compare natural death, or death by cigarettes with deliberate murder and terrorism, especially when the word terrorism means to terrorize and traumatize people. Suicide bombers murder indiscriminately and try to cause the most casualties to soft targets because of cause or religious doctrine. It´s not the same thing at all, and implying that death from cigarettes is the same of someone blowing themselves is ignorant and ignores the cultural difference between the western world and Muslim extremists.

 

[Condom]

German report from today: http://www.welt.de/regionales/nrw/a...on-Nordafrikanern-kann-Jahrzehnte-dauern.html

A German state home secretary basically saying it'll take 20 years to deport rejected Northern Africans to their home countries at the current speed.

And yes, 1 million Syrian refugees came to Germany last year. Have you missed the last 18 months?

Refugees are different from immigrants. Legally, ethically etc

 

[mnz]

Refugees are different from immigrants. Legally, ethically etc

Have I said otherwise?

 

[Royal_Phalanx]

You still get money and rent from the state in Germany even if you don't go back and that' enough for a lot of people.

Maybe you should stop giving them money if they've been denied then. This genuinely surprises me, I thought that would be a common sense thing. I'm pretty liberal left on social issues except on some issues (I'm more to the right on things like gun laws, and personal liberty-I disagree with a lot of GAF on the US gun threads and I think the new EU Firearm directive is fucking pointless, don't think we should ban guns or airsoft or whatever) and I still align with the mainstream European left on most things, but yeah, if that's true, we have to be harsher on people who don't respect personal freedom or human rights. I don't want to treat refugees like shit like Australia does (fuck the Australian government for their refugee policy), and I want to treat them humanely, but damn if there is a lot of mistakes we have to correct then.

I don't consider refugees immigrants. We're taking them for humanitarian reasons, like all countries do. But for work migration Europe isn't really that open border at all.

 

[Jacobi]

German report from today: http://www.welt.de/regionales/nrw/a...on-Nordafrikanern-kann-Jahrzehnte-dauern.html

A German state home secretary basically saying it'll take 20 years to deport rejected Northern Africans to their home countries at the current speed.

And yes, 1 million Syrian refugees came to Germany last year. Have you missed the last 18 months?

Only 35% of them were Syrians: