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[Lime]

The reason why far right parties thrive over here is that due to Europe being overwhelmingly white, minorities have no real political voice. Meaning appealing to the "legitimate concerns" of white citizens is way more politically viable than growing a backbone and showing empathy for the legitimate concerns of minorities for once.

The majority of white Europeans hate being told about racial problems because a combination of apathy and arrogance has lead to a complete lack of understanding of racism in Europe, and even bringing it up is worse than actual racism. Just see the reaction to post brexit racism on this very board. As a second generation immigrant my entire life has been defined by this ignorance.

Or it's all the lefts fault for actually trying to give a shit about people like me. That's probably a better conclusion.

From a French perspective, but this might apply to other European nations, I would say this is on a superficial level a rhetorical issue. I mean that the far right discourse answers a very widespread perception that a) we're slowly falling behind as a country while our systems and protections wither away and b) mainstream parties are all the same and, with their soft touch, haven't done anything to solve anything.

From a discursive standpoint, populist parties offer huge departures from these parties as they offer simple solutions that are opposite enough to what has been done so far to imply that they should work, considering the opposite didn't. This is obviously a fallacy, but the idea of new, radical solutions is appealing to people who believe they don't have much to lose. This is essentially the anti-establishment component.

There's also some kind of strongman cognitive bias at play here: the more expedient a solution seems, the more potent it should be. Your omelette can only get better as you break more eggs. Human rights are very often these eggs. Words themselves tend to betray these thoughts about human rights as besides the overused idiom "political correctness", hard righters will also use pejorative idioms such as "droits-de-l'hommisme" ("human-rightsism" which implies human rights have gone too far) and "bien pensance" ("well thinking" in a thought police sense).
This is a semantic context that is often overlooked but essentially boils down to a notion of silent majority, where human rights and openness keep the majority silent and prevent it from finding solutions to its problems if only it was allowed to speak up. The irony is of course that these people are 24/7 on TV or the radio, complaining about their lack of free speech.

One last thing, and this might be the most crucial part : voters need a political project, common goals, a legible roadmap to the future. Traditional parties have failed time and again to create a positive narrative that projects the county five or ten years from now, describing the kind of country they want. This means far right populists are pretty much the only ones with a story to tell that isn't more of the same. This inability of institutions and dominant parties to communicate their value will be their demise. They appear too complex and mired in technicalities, with no clear vision, while populists project the exact opposite. They don't sweat the details as long as they can sell their story.

Sorry if this is a bit disjointed, as I'm on mobile and was trying my hardest to not make it about the usual social, economic or demographic issues.

Good posts and just to add that it's fundamentally much easier to sell an easy solution of "throw out the brown people and let's revoke the human rights charter" than it is to sell a complex and hard solution that involves years of living with one another and accepting The Other (who is already being othered to an extreme degree by media and politicians with racist rhetoric and imagery)

Exactly. Gays are prosecuted in Islamic countries and some people from those countries still harbour the same belief. Unless they are willing to integrate to western way of life, I don't want them in my life. I moved to more a liberal country because I share the same belief as the people whose country I'm moving into. If you don't then why even move to that country and expect the people in it to change and accomodate you instead. Fuck that.

I totally get you Replicant, and that's more than fair. The problem is that it is not as simple as throwing people out. Besides, there are probably already other people who hold similar homophobic views who have lived for generations in the country, and we don't throw these people out (or at least make us turn to vote for far right parties). As long as the law and the general populace support gay rights, bigots in all shades should be dealth with appropriately within the frame of domestic law.

The rise of the regressive left is equally worrying.

What is the regressive left?

I agree with this. It is equally shocking.

In my view, people not willing to integrate with the value system in our society are not welcome. That includes gay rights, female equality, racial equality, criminalisation of domestic abuse, just to mention a few.

I employ women, gay people and moderate muslims, and it works just fine when everybody subscribes to the society they are part of. But I also share the worry that many people now migrating from middle-East are not like that, and believe it can be a problem unless we put our foot down for the values we have achieved.

And putting our foot down is an option and the goal of center and left parties.

Don't know what to do but if anything it's surely the fault of "leftists".

Because-because if they would "acknowledge" the problem by imitating politics of the far right, the votes for far right parties would magically disappear!

Exactly. That's usually the outcome of people saying the Left should do more with immigrants (aka adopt the same far right policies)

 

[AmaterasuOni]

Yeah I would like a source for that since during the last 25 years in Sweden only the far right extremists have killed 23 people (that I know of).

Can't speak for other countries but I believe the socialdemokrats in Sweden did start the selling out of public owned institutions and the blue parties sold even more, so you could say that some blame is on them. The problem is that the Socialists stopped being true socialists and sold out.

Trying to find the article. It was 2-3 years ago. Some antifa/AFA guys thought they were stabbing a "nazi" when they in fact stabbed a bald headed immigrant to death.

Can't remember if I read the article in Swedish, English or Finnish.

 

[Barajas_201]

Its thanks to the fact that neoliberalism is begging to dwindle which is something positive unfortunately for you Westerners is taking on the form of right-wing groups (Trump, Brexit, etc). Here in Mexico we're going through the same but with the rise of the left which is awesome since this country has been govern by the right for over 70 years imposing neoliberalsim (backed by you guys) and we're sick and tired of them but fortunately we have great progressive leadership in the form of MORENA. Feels good to be born at just the right time for the new progressive moment in our history.

 

[Liljagare]

I can only write about Sweden, but here we screwed ourselves over, since WW2 it has been a shamefull thing to properly be a Swedish Patriot.

It is coming back to bite us in the butt pretty hard. I never understood it myself, and since I lived in the US, I think Americans would find Swedes awfull, everywhere I went in the US, despite me disliking the nation, the citizens are genuinly proud over being Americans, and show it. I think that is one of their good traits.

If you did that here in Sweden, you'd be branded a racist.

It's wrong, and we have failed to take our flag back, and our traditions suffer, it's a perfect breeding ground for racists, neonazis and mindlike. I so regret not doing more myself, on our graduation from high school, we were not allowed to sing the national anthem, we should have done it anyway, we were not allowed to wear shirts with anything SWEDEN! or such on them, we should have done it anyway (funnily enough, everyone else were allowed to wear their shirts with whatever they wanted).

For so long, it has been looked at negatively if you are a proud citizen of Sweden, that now, we've handed that over to the extremists, and they are using it.

It's like the social democrats wanted us to be all socially ashamed for being neutral during WW2, to the extent, that it is shamefull, to be a white Swede. It is really rather ludicrous.

 

[Lime]

Trying to find the article. It was 2-3 years ago. Some antifa/AFA guys thought they were stabbing a "nazi" when they in fact stabbed a bald headed immigrant to death.

Can't remember if I read the article in Swedish, English or Finnish.

AmaterasuOni, you need to start sourcing your claims, because your post history tells me that you parrot far-right scare-mongering talking points where you get data from banned sites, you refer to Middle Eastern male refugees as Fighters and Warriors, you believe that it's easy for refugees to get welfare without getting discovered by the authorities, and you "got awakened" by a Finnish politician who've said publicly that leftist women should be raped by multicultural predators and protestors should be headshot, you think that Islam is the greatest threat to Europe ever., you say that calling out racism is an act of racism, and you say that rape in Scandinavian countries is due to immigrants and refugees. Hell, you equated "Antifascists, SJWs and hipsters" to fascists and linked to a right-winged "MetalGate" site.

Instead of keep scare-mongering with unsourced claims, instead I'd be much more interested in hearing why you seem to parrot and perpetuate far right ideology?

 

[Darth Ghandi]

I can only write about Sweden, but here we screwed ourselves over, since WW2 it has been a shamefull thing to properly be a Swedish Patriot.

It is coming back to bite us in the butt pretty hard. I never understood it myself, and since I lived in the US, I think Americans would find Swedes awfull, everywhere I went in the US, despite me disliking the nation, the citizens are genuinly proud over being Americans, and show it. I think that is one of their good traits.

If you did that here in Sweden, you'd be branded a racist.

It's wrong, and we have failed to take our flag back, and our traditions suffer, it's a perfect breeding ground for racists, neonazis and mindlike. I so regret not doing more myself, on our graduation from high school, we were not allowed to sing the national anthem, we should have done it anyway, we were not allowed to wear shirts with anything SWEDEN! or such on them, we should have done it anyway (funnily enough, everyone else were allowed to wear their shirts with whatever they wanted).

For so long, it has been looked at negatively if you are a proud citizen of Sweden, that now, we've handed that over to the extremists, and they are using it.

It's like the social democrats wanted us to be all socially ashamed for being neutral during WW2, to the extent, that it is shamefull, to be a white Swede. It is really rather ludicrous.

I live in Sweden and I don't share your view. Always (and still do) sing the national anthem at schools and I see tons of kids wearing Swedish colors.

AmaterasuOni, you need to start sourcing your claims, because your post history tells me that you parrot far-right scare-mongering talking points where you get data from banned sites, you refer to Middle Eastern male refugees as Fighters and Warriors, you believe that it's easy for refugees to get welfare without getting discovered by the authorities, and you "got awakened" by a Finnish politician who've said publicly that leftist women should be raped by multicultural predators and protestors should be headshot, you think that Islam is the greatest threat to Europe ever., you say that calling out racism is an act of racism, and you say that rape in Scandinavian countries is due to immigrants and refugees. Hell, you equated "Antifascists, SJWs and hipsters" to fascists and linked to a right-winged "MetalGate" site.

Instead of keep scare-mongering with unsourced claims, instead I'd be much more interested in hearing why you seem to parrot and perpetuate far right ideology?

Boom!
Looks like I won't get that link.....

 

[Liljagare]

I live in Sweden and I don't share your view. Always (and still do) sing the national anthem at schools and I see tons of kids wearing Swedish colors.

Where abouts? Every single school in the late 80's around Stockholm banned it.

 

[Lime]

I can only write about Sweden, but here we screwed ourselves over, since WW2 it has been a shamefull thing to properly be a Swedish Patriot.

It is coming back to bite us in the butt pretty hard. I never understood it myself, and since I lived in the US, I think Americans would find Swedes awfull, everywhere I went in the US, despite me disliking the nation, the citizens are genuinly proud over being Americans, and show it. I think that is one of their good traits.

If you did that here in Sweden, you'd be branded a racist.

It's wrong, and we have failed to take our flag back, and our traditions suffer, it's a perfect breeding ground for racists, neonazis and mindlike. I so regret not doing more myself, on our graduation from high school, we were not allowed to sing the national anthem, we should have done it anyway, we were not allowed to wear shirts with anything SWEDEN! or such on them, we should have done it anyway (funnily enough, everyone else were allowed to wear their shirts with whatever they wanted).

For so long, it has been looked at negatively if you are a proud citizen of Sweden, that now, we've handed that over to the extremists, and they are using it.

It's like the social democrats wanted us to be all socially ashamed for being neutral during WW2, to the extent, that it is shamefull, to be a white Swede. It is really rather ludicrous.

I don't understand, how does the lack of nationalism made way for neo-nazis? Surely these same people would be there, perhaps even stronger, if nationalism was much more ingrained and popular? Sorry I'm just not following the link between the two. How does nationalism curb far right ideology?

 

[Liljagare]

I don't understand, how does the lack of nationalism made way for neo-nazis? Surely these same people would be there, perhaps even stronger, if nationalism was much more ingrained and popular? Sorry I'm just not following your logic.

I guess because it has left the youth without a national identity? It leaves them wide open for propaganda.

No matter the connection, everyone young I talk to feel frustrated about that one thing, and they are all going for the Sverige Demokraterna as their party. So in my eyes, it is a small thing, that in the end really matters to people.

It has gotten to this point, as a comparison, a american saying they are a proud american, noone will bat a eye. Say you are a proud Swede nowadays? Yeah, we've handed that over to groups that shouldn't exist.

 

[TaterTots]

Don't worry, as capitalism inevitably collapses as resources dry up, and people even struggle to get clean drinking water, the far-right of today will seem both civil and welcoming in comparison.

Depressingly, it doesn't matter how you spin it. Resources like clean drinking water are depleting. We're slowly on our way out.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

Where abouts? Every single school in the late 80's around Stockholm banned it.

From Stockholm too.
But I have seen loads of stories based on social media from self proclaimed realists that claim those things.

I guess because it has left the youth without a national identity? It leaves them wide open for propaganda.

No matter the connection, everyone young I talk to feel frustrated about that one thing, and they are all going for the Sverige Demokraterna as their party. So in my eyes, it is a small thing, that in the end really matters to people.

I can't see any evidence that confirms that they are more susceptive to propaganda cause of that.

I think there are many reasons people vote for regressive parties like SD. But racism coupled with the cutbacks and selling of state owned institutions are a big part.

 

[Liljagare]

From Stockholm too.
But I have seen loads of stories based on social media from self proclaimed realists that claim those things..

I experienced it myself, so it's not a fairy tale I'm afraid. From Upplands Väsby inwards, it was banned from the 80's until recently, when the people in power actually realized the effect it had.

Whilst humourly really, the midsummer celebrations were allowed to carry on.

 

[Liljagare]

I can't see any evidence that confirms that they are more susceptive to propaganda cause of that..

Google "lack of national identity" and read.

 

[Piecake]

I can't see any evidence that confirms that they are more susceptive to propaganda cause of that.

I think there are many reasons people vote for regressive parties like SD. But racism coupled with the cutbacks and selling of state owned institutions are a big part.

"Compared to the citizens of other developed immigrant-receiving countries, Canadians are by far the most open to and optimistic about immigration," Irene Bloemraad, a sociologist at UC Berkeley and its chair of Canadian studies, wrote in a 2012 study published by the Migration Policy Institute.

"In one comparative poll, only 27 percent of those surveyed in Canada agreed that immigration represented more of a problem than an opportunity. In the country that came closest to Canadian opinion, France, the perception of immigration as a problem was significantly higher, at 42 percent."

Why? According to Bloemraad, the Canadian government has spent decades attempting to foster tolerance and acceptance as core national values, through policies aimed at integrating immigrants and minority groups without stripping them of their group identity.

For example, Canada emphasized permanent resettlement and citizenship in its immigration policy, rather than the sort of guest worker policies you've often seen in the US and Europe.

This actually worked in reshaping the values of citizens, making them more tolerant. Bloemraad explains:

A key aspect of the "Canadian model" lies in the view that immigration helps with nation building. Bolstered by the federal government, this view goes beyond political and intellectual elites to be embraced by a significant proportion of ordinary Canadians.

Indeed, one recent paper found that, in Canada, those who expressed more patriotism were also more likely to support immigration and multiculturalism. In the United States this correlation went in the opposite direction: those expressing greater patriotism were more likely to express anti-immigrant attitudes.

http://www.vox.com/2016/6/8/11879482/ramadan-justin-trudeau-canada

Nationalism and national identity are powerful ideas. Canada was able to develop a pro-immigration and multicultural national identity that Canadians took pride in. As a result, Canada has the fewest issues with alt-right parties in the western world.

If you leave powerful ideas to opponents who use them to further their own goals then you will likely see more people who share their views since nationalism and national identity are powerful powerful ideas.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

I experienced it myself, so it's not a fairy tale I'm afraid. From Upplands Väsby inwards, it was banned from the 80's until recently, when the people in power actually realized the effect it had.

Whilst humourly really, the midsummer celebrations were allowed to carry on.

Would love to see something more official regarding that ban.




But regarding the issue as a whole I also find it amusing that many right wingers try and say they aren't allowed to sing the national anthem yet it is mandatory to learn it according to läroplanen.

http://www.vox.com/2016/6/8/11879482/ramadan-justin-trudeau-canada

Nationalism and national identity are powerful ideas. Canada was able to develop a pro-immigration and multicultural national identity that Canadians took pride in. As a result, Canada has the fewest issues with alt-right parties in the western world.

If you leave powerful ideas to opponents who use them to further their own goals then you will likely see more people who share their views since nationalism and national identity are powerful powerful ideas.

I would also make that case that many Swedes take pride in many parts of our national identity such as our multiculturalism and work with equality and sport events.
The idea of "we aren't allowed to be proud" is a line that the far right hammer on to paint themselves as victims.

 

[Liljagare]

http://www.vox.com/2016/6/8/11879482/ramadan-justin-trudeau-canada

Nationalism and national identity are powerful ideas. Canada was able to develop a pro-immigration and multicultural national identity that Canadians took pride in. As a result, Canada has the fewest issues with alt-right parties in the western world.

If you leave powerful ideas to opponents who use them to further their own goals then you will likely see more people who share their views since nationalism and national identity are powerful powerful ideas.

Bingo! And, atleast here in Sweden, we handed a walkover to the extremists far right. Well, and the left.... too..

 

[Silver Arrows]

http://www.vox.com/2016/6/8/11879482/ramadan-justin-trudeau-canada

Nationalism and national identity are powerful ideas. Canada was able to develop a pro-immigration and multicultural national identity that Canadians took pride in. As a result, Canada has the fewest issues with alt-right parties in the western world.

If you leave powerful ideas to opponents who use them to further their own goals then you will likely see more people who share their views since nationalism and national identity are powerful powerful ideas.

You can see this when it comes to the recent election: the reigning Conservative government tried to bang the 'Muslim immigrant' wardrum when the Syrian refugee crisis was at it's apex, and most regular Canadians shut it down completely, leading to the Liberals trouncing them in the polls and leaving the Cons a husk of their old selves.

 

[RainblowDash]

No thanks, gun laws, mass consumption, pollution, no healthcare, slave-like working conditions, corporate plutonomy, imperialistic foreign policies, drone strikes, prison industrial complex, CO2 emissions, highest military budget in the world, white supremacy, low social mobility, hating the poor, acceptance of torture, boot straps rhetoric, NSA surveillance, death penalty, supporting Israel, militarized police force, denial of man-made global warming, Christian nutjobs, for-profit education, all make me not want to move to the US.

Well then stay where you are and suffer I guess?

Sorry if I'm being rude but if you can only focus and exaggerate on the negative then you are sunk.

 

[Vigilant Walrus]

Europe, AFAIK - Always moves towards the right in economic recessions. Because in a capitalistic structured society, economic, influences all manners of life. Millions and millions of people had their lives ruined by the recessions in 2008. And a lot of that damage is not measureable. The degrees of the misery imposed on people also differs. I know personally of many people, including family members who lost their business and house during the crisis.
Essentially, during tough economic times, the people have less, and are unaccustomed to living under worse conditions. Uncertainty, bitterness, anger and hatred boils, and hearing about some shadow banking cunts across the ocean, is a poor comforter for people who've had their lives uprooted.
The social structures and liberal virtues are often first to be cut. You have less, so you want to keep what you have. What your community has. What your country has. This feeds into a fear and image that outsiders are freeloaders. Now I have less, therefore we cannot feed and help others.
It's an over simplification but I think that is the gist of it. I saw a silly program on TV years ago, about what would happen in a city like Los Angeles if the water supply dried up. They interviewed a fire marshall who said that the average person would last 1-2 weeks before they would go on a killing spree, and kill other people over water to save themselves and their own loved ones.
I absolutely believe that most people can be brought to a primal level where they will shoot other people and their kids, to take their water and food if it meant saving their own. I think that the lifestyle we've grown accustomed to in the western world, have totally removed us from the reality and darkness that human depravities will take us in the darkest circumstances.

I think about the global panic of one American nurse getting Ebola, and how close there where to a mass hysteria. One person. Over something that while dangerous and contagious, doesn't even scratch the surface of what could come.
Essentially, I think the horrible evil inside people emerge the higher their misery is. And I think in America with the availability of firearms, any sort of global panic or disaster would be particularly dangerous because there is more than enough weapons for every woman, man and child. The level of damage imposed by a single individual reaches further than what is possible elsewhere.

So to me, it makes sense that Europe has gone further right. I remember back in 2014, when Jobik and Golden Dawn entered the EU Parliment. Before the migrant crisis became the key issue. What leads these facist party? In Hungary, Jobbik became the most popular party amoung the youth, with a key reason supposedly being that Democracy was a joke in the country amist the corruption and incompetence heralded by the government at the time.
And Golden Dawn? Of course. Its rise is a direct knee jerk response to the chaos they had gone through.
It's why after the Paris Shootings Le Pen rose in popularity. Safety is infringed, and somebody has to pay. If there is no good place for the anger, it goes on the stereotype, because its easier. And going for the stereotype strengthens the impressions you already had.
This far-right rhetoric has been brewing for a long, long time. Since the early 2000s, on TV and in media, the word muslim, arab and middle east have had a "terrorist", "suicide attack", "fanatic", "radical", islamist, "fundamental" and other loaded buzz word drilled into the heads of EU citizens. For more than a decade, that connotation has been allowed to simmer. And here we are in 2016, having it acceptable to say among the masses, to denounce muslims as being compatible with the western way of life.

I think a lot more people suffered during the 08 crisis than many people even today realize.
Many people lost a lot and have not recovered. And those who were vulnerable and have not been able to get better, might be lesser educated and disenfranchised, and thus have given up on the process, and have, in economic, domestic, immigration and social policies all embraced the right wing agenda. Not because they are evil, but because right-wing ideas preys on the people whose lives suck.

 

[Liljagare]

Would love to see something more official regarding that ban.




IBut regarding the issue as a whole also find it amusing that many right wingers try and say they aren't allowed to sing the national anthem yet it is mandatory to learn it according to läroplanen.

It was in 2012 it was mandatory again, if you read, I mentioned my own experience. Nowadays, it is called a myth that it wasn't allowed, but you can again, google.

Regardless, it is used as fuel for right wingers, and it works, and that is what is asked for in the OT.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

It was in 2012 it was mandatory again, if you read, I mentioned my own experience. Nowadays, it is called a myth that it wasn't allowed, but you can again, google.

So nothing official then.
The problem is that stories like this start and get twisted by right wing sites.
Apparently they weren't banned, it was just that the schedule for the event was set.
http://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=114&artikel=4549374

 

[Liljagare]

So nothing official then.

Do you think that matters to people who were told not to do it? That is fuel for the wrong people to use, and it has worked in Sweden.

If you want a good analogy, my grandmother never understood the fuzz, because they sang "Den Blomstertid nu kommer" in the 20's, they never thought about the national anthem.

It doesn't matter, the truth is that it has been used by the right wing, and it has worked. Though sadly, my own personal experience happens to reflect this "myth", and so does my brothers and sisters. It is not a myth.

 

[Replicant]

Is that really what they want though? Or are they finding their new home countries to be completely hostile and unwilling to accept them, so they take the only option available to them and live in their own segregated subculture?

Integration is a two-way street. How can we expect people to conform to our way of life if we aren't willing to engage with them to try to change their way of thinking?

And in response to your homosexuality, how can we expect them to change their views on homosexuality when so many in western society reject your orientation too?

I lived in a *moderate* Muslim country for the first 16 years of my life. If I had thought that they'd have accepted me or integration was possible, I wouldn't have moved out of the country in the first place.

Of course no countries are perfect but at the very least, I want to live in a country where bashing or killing people who don't follow your religion value is not supported. Where religion freedom does not win over human compassion and respect.

 

[Riposte]

This bothers me as well. Terrorism does not pose an existential threat to the world and the Western way of life in particular. The retaliation to the acts of terror that we saw is, frankly, inadequate and absurd. Open societies should know better.

You could say the same thing about gun violence, for example. A few nasty incidents has virtually no effect on the overall health of western civilization. Pretty much true for everything except for the stock-piling of nuclear weapons, a carelessness towards epidemics, and rapidly causing climate change.

 

[Royal_Phalanx]

Canada is a country of immigrants. The EU has none of this. In many Europeans' minds, to be European=be a white person whose ancestors have lived there since the days of the Western Roman Empire or something.You can see this with the guest worker policies that are the roots of the current issues today where no effort was made to make them European culturally, because 'they can never be truly European' according to those in power. Europe was very ethnically homogenous until recent decades. Canada emphasizes the idea in it's immigration policy that anyone can be a Canadian and everyone needs to make an effort towards it, natives and immigrants included in fostering a sense of positive, civic national pride. Far-right parties in Europe love to bang the drum of 'ethnic national pride' as opposed to the Canadian version which emphasizes civics over everything else. Far-right Europeans tend to have the idea that 'white people must be the overwhelming majority, all others are merely tolerated as long as they don't become too noticeable', and that 'racial diversity works against having a national identity'. The Danish People's Party openly says 'Denmark is not a country of immigration. Denmark must be for the Danes'. And many people there love that message. And you get UKIP etc. who say 'immigration destroys our cohesive society'.

 

[Piecake]

I would also make that case that many Swedes take pride in many parts of our national identity such as our multiculturalism and work with equality and sport events.
The idea of "we aren't allowed to be proud" is a line that the far right hammer on to paint themselves as victims.

Many Americans, British, French and other people certainly take pride in multiculturalism and work towards greater equality, etc. in their nation

That is not the point though. The difference between Canada and the other Western nations is that the Canadian government - conservative and progressive - deliberately promoted a national identity that took pride in multiculturalism and immigration.

This approach, is obviously a lot more successful than the other approaches because it completely eliminates any attempt for another group to say - whether it is true of false - that you weren't allowed to be proud. The Canadian government made the Canadian people be proud of Canada's multicultural and pro-immigration identity.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

Do you think that matters to people who were told not to do it? That is fuel for the wrong people to use, and it has worked in Sweden.

Like I said, there can be many reasons and it is used as a racist dog whistle.

I lived in a *moderate* Muslim country for the first 16 years of my life. If I had thought that they'd have accepted me or integration was possible, I wouldn't have moved out of the country in the first place.

Of course no countries are perfect but at the very least, I want to live in a country where bashing or killing people who don't follow your religion value is not supported. Where religion freedom does not win over human compassion and respect.

I'm not sure why some Muslim countries not integrating people minorities should make it ok for western countries to do the same.
I mean, we have data and documentation on how Muslims and POC are face systematically racism and oppression.

 

[Liljagare]

Like I said, there can be many reasons and it is used as a racist dog whistle.

Yes, and again, it works, it exists. Doesn't matter in theese situations what the truth is, it is being used, and works, that is what matters. So denying it into oblivion won't work.

But sadly enough, for the myth, I had to live through it in the 80's, so did my sister, and brother, and my nephew. For us, it is not a myth, and it is insulting to be told so, which again, what could that possibly lead to? That is naturarly a personal anecdote. And my thought always was, if it was so important, why wasn't it included into the national teaching plan until 2012? And why has googles search results on the topic been optimized?

 

[Monocle]

No thanks, gun laws, mass consumption, pollution, no healthcare, slave-like working conditions, corporate plutonomy, imperialistic foreign policies, drone strikes, prison industrial complex, CO2 emissions, highest military budget in the world, white supremacy, low social mobility, hating the poor, acceptance of torture, boot straps rhetoric, NSA surveillance, death penalty, supporting Israel, militarized police force, denial of man-made global warming, Christian nutjobs, for-profit education, all make me not want to move to the US.

A lot of that stuff doesn't affect the average American, just saying.

 

[Log4Girlz]

A lot of that stuff doesn't affect the average American, just saying.

Just people of certain skin colors

sadly

 

[MC Safety]

A lot of that stuff doesn't affect the average American, just saying.

And a lot of it is nonsense.

Slavelike work conditions, no healthcare, boot straps rhetoric, co2 emissions ...

And let's not forget the evil of air conditioning.

I get the feeling I'm reading Frank Chu's manifesto. If it were written by a European who only has the most vague notion of the United States.

 

[timetokill]

No thanks, gun laws, mass consumption, pollution, no healthcare, slave-like working conditions, corporate plutonomy, imperialistic foreign policies, drone strikes, prison industrial complex, CO2 emissions, highest military budget in the world, white supremacy, low social mobility, hating the poor, acceptance of torture, boot straps rhetoric, NSA surveillance, death penalty, supporting Israel, militarized police force, denial of man-made global warming, Christian nutjobs, for-profit education, all make me not want to move to the US.

1. The majority of those things are not American-only...
2. Depending on where you live, some of these things hardly affect you at all. It's a big country.
3. A lot of people disagree with a lot of those things.
4. Overall it sounds like an evil cartoon version of America, I'm surprised you didn't spell it with k's instead of a c

 

[Replicant]

I'm not sure why some Muslim countries not integrating people minorities should make it ok for western countries to do the same.
I mean, we have data and documentation on how Muslims and POC are face systematically racism and oppression.

All I'm saying is, you're facing an uphill battle. The two cultures you try to merge are just too different at this point in time. Unlike other cultures (Greek, Asian, Eastern Europeans, etc), the compatability is slim. In the face of limited resource and massive immigration influx, eventually you'll have to choose who are the best people to integrate into the society. Otherwise you risk more and more people becoming dissatisfied with the system and turn radical.

 

[AmaterasuOni]

Boom!
Looks like I won't get that link.....

Here you go. http://www.svd.se/flera-tillslag-mot-vansterextrema

Instead of keep scare-mongering with unsourced claims, instead I'd be much more interested in hearing why you seem to parrot and perpetuate far right ideology?

Sorry. I have my own opinions on the issue, I won't be bullied by either side of the political field.

And that said I'm out again. This is going to be yet another of these witch-hunt threads. Leftists don't like when they're being accused of the same things they accuse the right. And if you have that different voice, you're being labeled as a nazi or rightist. Such fucking blind fascism.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

Yes, and again, it works, it exists. Doesn't matter in theese situations what the truth is, it is being used, and works, that is what matters. So denying it into oblivion won't work.

But sadly enough, for the myth, I had to live through it in the 80's, so did my sister, and brother, and my nephew. For us, it is not a myth, and it is insulting to be told so, which again, what could that possibly lead to? That is naturarly a personal anecdote. And my thought always was, if it was so important, why wasn't it included into the national teaching plan until 2012? And why has googles search results on the topic been optimized?

Like I said many use it as a dog whistle and when the schools get to actually explain there is a good explanation.
The new läroplan was brought out 2010 btw.
All I'm saying that it is also comon to sing the anthem and still is today.

All I'm saying is, you're facing an uphill battle. The two cultures you try to merge are just too different at this point in time. Unlike other cultures (Greek, Asian, Eastern Europeans, etc), the compatability is slim. In the face of limited resource and massive immigration influx, eventually you'll have to choose who are the best people to integrate into the society. Otherwise you risk more and more people becoming dissatisfied with the system and turn radical.

None said it would be easy but we have had success before. I would like to point to the lack of resources as the main problem and not the culture since culture by definition is something that changes with time. If we as a society really care about this we must address the causes and help end the wars.

Here you go. http://www.svd.se/flera-tillslag-mot-vansterextrema



Sorry. I have my own opinions on the issue, I won't be bullied by either side of the political field.

And that said I'm out again. This is going to be yet another of these witch-hunt threads. Leftists don't like when they're being accused of the same things they accuse the right. And if you have that different voice, you're being labeled as a nazi or rightist. Such fucking blind fascism.

I'm sorry but I'm gonna go ahead and call you on that crap you have said in this thread.

In Sweden some AFA people stabbed an immigrant to death.

NOTHING in the article you posted mentions a killing. So if you enter a thread and spew xenophobic propaganda as fact and then you better be ready that people won't buy you shit.


Your opinions aren't as good as facts.

 

[Nyx]

I try not to think about it much and rather care for my own circle of people who have the same views as me.

When it's election time I will vote though, then hope the majority of people in my country and others around the world vote for humanity, not hate.

 

[AmaterasuOni]

NOTHING in the article you posted mentions a killing. So if you enter a thread and spew xenophobic propaganda as fact and then you better be ready that people won't buy you shit.


Your opinions aren't as good as facts.

My Swedish isn't that good, I only used Google translate on that article. My bad if there wasn't enough killing, I thought stabbing innocent man is bad enough.

Here's a consolation article/interview though. Proof of idiotism on both sides: http://kersplebedeb.com/posts/interview-with-an-antifascist-prisoner-in-sweden/

 

[Metrotab]

In today's news, the chairman of my local socialist party made the same analysis as many posters in this thread:

- socialists didn't talk enough about migration and security
- a lot of left-wingers are tired and pissed about how young Muslims want to dictate the norms in our country
- socialists will no longer use euphemisms
- socialists will no longer deny the problems with some migrants

SOURCE: http://www.demorgen.be/binnenland/crombez-sp-a-heeft-te-lang-gezwalpt-b5f2c11d/

EDIT: Technically they are social-democrats, but people call them socialists.

 

[Ooccoo]

It's worrying to me too. History repeating.

What to do? Vote. Volunteer as much as you can, and in what ways you can, for opposing political groups.

I donated an amount that surprised me to both Obama and now Hilary, considering I am not a rich man. I gave people rides to the polls twice.

EDIT: just to add, if you're an adult with disposable income, a car, and at least several hours a week to spare, you can be extremely helpful to candidate. And it's very easy to get engaged. Show some interest by notifying them via their primary web site, and you will have volunteers crawling up your butt with ways to get you directly involved.

Votes are mostly rigged in the USA at least. Remember George Bush?

 

[Mr. Giggles]

You can see this when it comes to the recent election: the reigning Conservative government tried to bang the 'Muslim immigrant' wardrum when the Syrian refugee crisis was at it's apex, and most regular Canadians shut it down completely, leading to the Liberals trouncing them in the polls and leaving the Cons a husk of their old selves.

That was a good day, fuck Stephen harper

 

[Darth Ghandi]

My Swedish isn't that good, I only used Google translate on that article. My bad if there wasn't enough killing, I thought stabbing innocent man is bad enough.

Here's a consolation article/interview though. Proof of idiotism on both sides: http://kersplebedeb.com/posts/interview-with-an-antifascist-prisoner-in-sweden/

Yeah, no mention of a stabbing either. Stop moving them goalposts.
The fact still remains that rightwing extremists are the ones who have killed 23 ppl during the last 25 years.
Not buying the both sides bull.

 

[Joni]

In today's news, the chairman of my local socialist party made the same analysis as many posters in this thread:

- socialists didn't talk enough about migration and security
- a lot of left-wingers are tired and pissed about how young Muslims want to dictate the norms in our country
- socialists will no longer use euphemisms
- socialists will no longer deny the problems with some migrants

SOURCE: http://www.demorgen.be/binnenland/crombez-sp-a-heeft-te-lang-gezwalpt-b5f2c11d/

EDIT: Technically they are social-democrats, but people call them socialists.

It is clear they need to turn around, certainly now that it turns out multiple Belgian left parties advocated for the release of the terrorist responsible for the Belgian bombings.

 

[AmaterasuOni]

Yeah, no mention of a stabbing either. Stop moving them goalposts.
The fact still remains that rightwing extremists are the ones who have killed 23 ppl during the last 25 years.
Not buying the both sides bull.

Shit like this?

Wa had a "Musta Kallio" weekend just now. Some "anarchists" and ANTIFA people attacked police. We have protests against uncotrollable immigration and these same people attack the protestants. I've read same thing happens in Sweden.

But yeah, let's just bury everything else and pretend the left is just so fucking cool and righteous while they're exactly the same shit as far-right.

->

 

[El Topo]

But yeah, let's just bury everything else and pretend the left is just so fucking cool and righteous while they're exactly the same shit as far-right.

Do you have reliable data for this statement? If I look at Germany, your statement seems blatantly false and given the deaths due to right-wing extremism here it seems like a downright disgusting downplaying.
The studies I'm aware of also point to very different profiles regarding both crimes and criminals, at least for Germany, when it comes to left-wing extremism and right-wing extremism.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

Shit like this? https://redice.tv/news/the-rise-of-...eden-is-being-divided-and-conquered-by-design

Wa had a "Musta Kallio" weekend just now. Some "anarchists" and ANTIFA people attacked police. We have protests against uncotrollable immigration and these same people attack the protestants. I've read same thing happens in Sweden.

But yeah, let's just bury everything else and pretend the left is just so fucking cool and righteous while they're exactly the same shit as far-right.

->

Listen buddy YOU came with unfounded accusations (lies) about a stabbing.


Now you link to a fucking site that has this line "How Zionists Divide and Conquer".

So please leave with you lies and your far right propaganda.

This is the typical rightwing shit about how the media is covering stuff up Zionists and other tinfoil shit.

 

[AmaterasuOni]

Listen buddy YOU came with unfounded accusations (lies) about a stabbing.


Now you link to a fucking site that has this line "How Zionists Divide and Conquer".

So please leave with you lies and your far right propaganda.

This is the typical rightwing shit about how the media is covering stuff up Zionists and other tinfoil shit.

I have no idea about the site, I just wanted to link the Vice News video aboutANTIFA violence in Sweden: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1MYMVfyHi0

Sorry if the site is questionable, I just came across to it after I searched for ANTIFA action in Sweden. Deleted the first link.

EDIT: Both sides use propaganda. Most of the left-wing sites are questionable as well. That is what I'm trying to say. Both are shit and dangerous. I just fucking hate when only the right-wing is made dangerous and left-wing at the same time is somewhat righteous. That's just plain wrong. Avoid them both at all cost.

Do you have reliable data for this statement? If I look at Germany, your statement seems blatantly false and given the deaths due to right-wing extremism here it seems like a downright disgusting downplaying.
The studies I'm aware of also point to very different profiles regarding both crimes and criminals, at least for Germany, when it comes to left-wing extremism and right-wing extremism.

I have no idea about Germany apart from that ANTIFA threatens venues when they think some nazi bands are performing there. "Nazi bands" are metal bands who use runes in their artwork or some other pagan images. I know this from first-hand knowledge.

Signing off now. This is a shitfest again.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

I have no idea about the site, I just wanted to link the Vice News video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1MYMVfyHi0

Sorry if the site is questionable, I just came across to it after I searched for ANTIFA violence in Sweden. Deleted the first link.

Well we have gone from "leftwingers stabbing a immigrant" to "they also do bad things".
And all your evidence is from a VICE documentary.
Not saying that the left wing are not a problem but you can't compare them with the far right who have killed 23 ppl during the last 25 years.
Making them equal is very dishonest, and calling it a shitfest cause you can't say shit unopposed is amusing.
We have had far right hooligans chasing POC in Stockholm this very year.

 

[AmaterasuOni]

Well we have gone from "leftwingers stabbing a immigrant" to "they also do bad things".
And all your evidence is from a VICE documentary.
Not saying that the left wing are not a problem but you can't compare them with the far right who have killed 23 ppl during the last 25 years.
Making them equal is very dishonest.
We have had far right hooligans chasing POC in Stockholm this very year.

Only thing I'm saying is that they're both shit and dangerous. They do horrible things. They're both violent. They both use fascistic means to get their message across.

Politics sucks. I should just stay away from this shit. I just hate the fucking situation we live in Europe. Religious fanatics, political fanatics, plain fanatics, fucking lunatics and the strings are pulled by the rich oligarchs in the disguise of democracy. Judeo-Christian politics and religions will fuck us up and people are so gullible that it makes me angry. It's a religious war we're in. It saddens me as I'm an anti-religious atheist and find the whole situation horrible.

Religious terrorists disguised as immigrants blowing shit up and when you say that it should be stopped, you're being labeled as a racist even though you cannot even be racist against religions. And on the other side we have these hypocritical Western oligarchs preaching their god which makes money. This whole shit is going to blow up soon. I hope people are ready, because their nonexistent gods won't help them.

Yeah, fuck this shit. I'm out.

 

[hobblygobbly]

ANTIFA can get very violent in Germany (and Ukraine I hear) when they clash with far-right but I don't think they've ever killed anyone as opposed to the far-right groups. The far-left was killing people in Germany from the 70s-90s (terrorists) but not today.

 

[Tall4Life]

Votes are mostly rigged in the USA at least. Remember George Bush?

It was found later by numerous studies that Bush did indeed win the popular vote in Florida. He was the correct candidate to put into office, even if its a bit fucked because Gore won the overall popular vote but lost the EC.