Several French cities ban Burkinis on beaches, citing "public order" concerns
- Thread starter RustyNails
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NOLA_Gaffer
Banned
Make Burkinis out of wetsuit material...problem solved.
DiipuSurotu
Banned
Guys this is just one random mayor going rogue. The ban is being legally contested as we speak.
I have no doubt that the judge will cancel this next week.
I have no doubt that the judge will cancel this next week.
Royal_Phalanx
Member
To be fair, conservative clothing isn't ubiquitous to all Muslims so it isn't a religious thing. Plenty of Muslim girls dress like Westerners. They don't HAVE to cover up. But some Muslim women might have conservative religious views as well. I don't agree with them, but that doesn't mean we should ban it.
Mr. Giggles
Member
Who's acting like all of them want to wear it? Obviously some do and don't
I just asked what if they choose to wear it?
You're no different than the people forcing them to wear it, why you're both flying the same banner of "I know what's best for you"
Let. Them. Decide
Not doing anything about "conservative" view of islam in belgium gave us Molenbeek, quite a success isn't it ?
Regginator
Member
And the oppression of Muslims because of the actions of a tiny fraction continues. It's ridiculous, what does "public order" even mean in this context? And saying it's a symbol of "Islamic extremism" is absolutely despicable. It's ironic because they're doing exactly what they're claiming Muslim men are doing, they're oppressing women. They want to go for a swim but now they can't, unless they go half-naked which is something they choose not to.
France already is on high alert with right wing affiliations one side and Muslim on the other. With the high amounts of Muslims in France, I really think this could blow up sometime soon. Surely they won't allow these xenophobic oppression go much further than this.
Absolutely shameful decision.
France already is on high alert with right wing affiliations one side and Muslim on the other. With the high amounts of Muslims in France, I really think this could blow up sometime soon. Surely they won't allow these xenophobic oppression go much further than this.
Absolutely shameful decision.
No it doesn't. 95% of french muslims are of north african origin. The Burka isn't a traditional dress from there. It's an imported garment from afghanistan. The only people who wear it in France are the most indocrinated salafi/wahabi female muslims who vuluntarily cut themselves from society. Those are the group that pose the biggest threat to the rest of the muslim community and to our society at large.
PdotMichael
Banned
You can't expect people are open to decide what they want if they are living in a culture of oppression.
Mr. Giggles
Member
How is this helping remove those views?
If anything this enforces the idea that they aren't wanted
Would you say the same thing about Sari, Pavada, Djellaba, Dashiki, Gákti and ever traditional clothes around the world?
You mean a problem you, yourself, are making it out of something you don't understand?
Mr. Giggles
Member
Again, how do you expect them to adopt or assimilate with the host culture if you yourself adopt a culture of oppression?
Hey guys, that culture is oppressive! Let's oppress them further
I know you've probably heard it a million times and just choose to ignore it, but if you somehow weren't aware because you watch too much Fox News, some women choose to wear head scarves and burkinis. Maybe you don't think women are capable of making choices for themselves, but I personally have no problem with someone choosing to wear a swimsuit they prefer.
Women shouldn't be forced to wear them and they shouldn't be banned from wearing them. Simple.
Masterspeed
Member
This sure is one hell of a thread we're going to have here...
They choose not to? Or is it maybe a patriarchal, sexist religion that forces them to comply with "modesty" laws?
Oh stop it with your " they ".
Only a tiny fraction of french muslim women wear the burkini at the beach. Stop thinking that the most conservative muslims are representative of french muslims. This isn't going to make french muslims feel " unwanted " and they have way more bigger problems to worry about right now.
It enforce the idea that this view of the religion is unwanted, not the people
So basically there's nothing between " half-naked " and the burkini ? It's one way or the other ? You couldn't wear swimming pants and a t-shirt to swim ?
Give me a break lol.
The Burkini is moderate, actually.
It has no association with the burqa.
That looks like something from the early 1900's.
PdotMichael
Banned
How is "tradition" an argument for anything. Not that the Burka has a long history.
MoodyFog
Member
Colonial past and the resentment it created for one..
If anything, you are showing how stupid the ban is. What is the classification of a burkini? If she wears a long sleeve shirt, pants, and a headscarf, you basically have a burkini. The wetsuit confusion is in the opening post as well. So really, the only thing this ban is based on is racism and a fear of the other.
jakonovski
Member
Whatever the problem, solve it by telling women what to do.
Mr. Giggles
Member
to the bolded - receipts please
Just like only a tiny fraction wear the veil right? I'm sure that law wasn't marginalizing at all
You think just because a lady wears a burkini she's automatically conservative?
Neither can you expect people to be forced against their will to conform to a different set of rules
gutter_trash
Banned
When in Rome.
The French fought for 200 years to separate Church and State. Pre-revolution France was held in the clutches of the monarchy + clergy
It is easy to slam the French but secularism is a core pillar of their Republic
The French fought for 200 years to separate Church and State. Pre-revolution France was held in the clutches of the monarchy + clergy
It is easy to slam the French but secularism is a core pillar of their Republic
Amen. Vive la laïcité.
Audioboxer
Member
This seems like a rather silly battle to wage. People should be free to wear what they want in public places (exposing nudity aside ~ unless it is breast feeding).
The only potential area a ban on head covering makes sense to me is around high security areas like banks or airports. Or if not a ban at least the ability to ask to search. Like it or not it can be a public security concern if CCTV in a high value area effectively becomes defunct because someone can cover their whole face, and even whole body.
If you wore a balaclava and a hoodie and went into a bank... lol. Just cite it is part of your religion I guess, and see how that flies. Still religion shouldn't trump security in such places IMO, and I really wouldn't have much of a problem with high value areas having the ability to ask people to leave that fully cover up and won't comply.
The only potential area a ban on head covering makes sense to me is around high security areas like banks or airports. Or if not a ban at least the ability to ask to search. Like it or not it can be a public security concern if CCTV in a high value area effectively becomes defunct because someone can cover their whole face, and even whole body.
If you wore a balaclava and a hoodie and went into a bank... lol. Just cite it is part of your religion I guess, and see how that flies. Still religion shouldn't trump security in such places IMO, and I really wouldn't have much of a problem with high value areas having the ability to ask people to leave that fully cover up and won't comply.
Whether It has a historical representation is beside the point. People chose to wear it and France have banned that that despite western culture basing their society as a free one.
People chose to wear cloths you might find uncomfortable for your eyes. If you really have to argue about this point, Then, sadly, nothing I say will change your mind.
Mr. Giggles
Member
Moderate muslim women also wear the burkini, you can pretend that its only applicable to the most extreme of extreme conservative musliums but its not.
Exactly. Let's deal with oppression by... oppressing. It's a great idea.
The Burkini is moderate, actually.
It has no association with the burqa.
This just highlights how ridiculous Islam is about women swimming.
A wetsuit would make more sense if you absolutely must cover up any hint of bare flesh.
Exactly and unfortunately religion (all the religions) is gaining political power again lately
this is a very stupid post.
I didn't know public spaces were covered by this law? Are Christians not allowed to wear crosses when they are swimming as well?
there is separation of church and state, and then there is idiocy.
Separation of church and state goes both ways. This is infringement of these people's religious rights.
So covering yourself when going to the beach is a government affair now?
Ninja Scooter
Member
First they came for the Burkinis and I did not speak out, because I do not wear Burkinis.
Next they came for the cargo shorts, and there was nobody left to speak for me.
Next they came for the cargo shorts, and there was nobody left to speak for me.
Bloody_Five
Banned
The problem is that most of France believes that Islam, like most religions, is total bollocks and conflicts with the fundamental values of French society, namely secularism, strict equality between men and women, religion being strictly private and having no place in the public discourse.
You have to remember what France led the philosophical charge in the 18th century against religious dogma and for many French people,the beliefs and ideas of many Muslims seem straight from the middle Ages before the times of "Enlightenment"
In 1905, a separation of Church and State was voted and marked the end of battle between religious groups and secularists that lasted for almost two centuries.
As for emigrants, unlike anglo saxon countries, France does not tolerate communities.
You become French, period. And French women don't wear burkas or burkinis.
Obviously, some people did not get the memo.
It may be heard to understand for non-French, especially for Americans but the fact that women wears a veil or a burkini make the blood of many French people boil as it seems like spitting on everything France stands for.
Left wing parties are more lenient but I would reckon that between 50-60% of France is deeply anti-Islam.
Mr. Giggles
Member
Surprise! some actually do just wear a wet suit with a veil.
This does nothing but say "Oh this only for a fraction of you, but really its targeted at all of you, women specifically"
gutter_trash
Banned
USA has never underwent a true seperation of Church and State
Many European Western countries have lived a long difficult history of abuse of power from the Church, the Clergy, the monarchy
Secularisarion during the 19th to the 20th Century was fundamental into transitionning into modern democracies
History is ugly, secularists don't want religion to ever return into politics because of the corruption and manipulation of the Church with power
Many European Western countries have lived a long difficult history of abuse of power from the Church, the Clergy, the monarchy
Secularisarion during the 19th to the 20th Century was fundamental into transitionning into modern democracies
History is ugly, secularists don't want religion to ever return into politics because of the corruption and manipulation of the Church with power
jakonovski
Member
Utter poppycock. I'm more secular than 99% of the French and this is nothing more than anti-religion bigotry. Rooted in Christian culture no less.
What? I believe Swimming is actually encouraged in Islam.
This is not about secularism. France is still very generous with catholics.
Also what the city of Cannes is doing is quite probably illegal.
More about this for those who read French : http://blog.francetvinfo.fr/judge-marie/2016/08/11/ne-sortez-pas-couvertes.html
Also what the city of Cannes is doing is quite probably illegal.
More about this for those who read French : http://blog.francetvinfo.fr/judge-marie/2016/08/11/ne-sortez-pas-couvertes.html
PdotMichael
Banned
Other people decided for women what to wear.
It's some crazy bullshit how oppresion against women gets defended here becuase of a misunderstood idea of freedom of religion.
Reminds me on the stupid Erdogan "for the democracy!" defenders here.
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