I tried to explain that this extremism growing in the muslim world (and not only in France) has nothing to do with marginalization , since it's growing even quicker in muslim countries.
Several French cities ban Burkinis on beaches, citing "public order" concerns
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I tried to explain that this extremism growing in the muslim world (and not only in France) has nothing to do with marginalization , since it's growing even quicker in muslim countries.
Dee Dah Dave
Member
Well technically you are correct, although I think your chance of being pulled up by the Police and told to remove it would increase significantly. Which is somewhat ironic.
But for me there's no reason for anyone to be completely hiding their identity, and I would ban such apparel across the board if I came to power!
The swimsuit ban is dumb though.
freeofgreed
Member
I'm not talking about radicalization though. You brought that up not me. I'm talking about marginalization. Whether you want to admit it or not these laws are definitely contributing to that and are unfairly targeting a specific religion. Thank fully though it seems that your court system is a bit more sane than you are, and realizes that this law is unjust.
Baki
Member
Lots of racism amongst legislators and a sense of "superiority".
Welcome to White privilege mate.
Baki
Member
Would be funny if there wasn't so much truth to this post...
Just look at this thread.
Mate. A mosque was just firebombed the other day. Link: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/nov/29/north-london-mosque-targeted-in-suspected-arson-attack
Man, must be nice to live in a bubble.
DiipuSurotu
Banned
Like they did in Cannes anyway... Too many racists.
Royal_Phalanx
Member
To defend liberal values, we must throw them into the dustbin apparently according to some European users. You're well within your rights to dislike conservative clothing (I do), and I would like to see far, far more Muslims get more secular and Westernized, but banning clothing items solves nothing. Europe GAF can get pretty reactionary at times (like the poster who said that Muslims aren't discriminated against somewhat in Europe). Also when they claim the increase in far-right parties in Europe and America is only caused by 'rational immigration concerns' and NOTHING else. At some point you should say 'Hey, most of them are bigoted assholes' because nothing will ever placate them. You see countries like Sweden completely changing tack on this issue and the far right doesn't get quieter.
Baki
Member
Why is this?
On a slightly related note. Will be interesting to see Asian countries become superpowers, to see how that impacts global culture. Maybe we'll see some more diversity.
But radicalization has everything to do with it, a lot more than marginalization in France...
Several Maghrebian intellectuals warned occidental countries against a rise of political Islam following the same methodology that was applied in their country. Namely start by taking control of the right place of women in public space.
Burqa and cie are beneficial for religious people to split women into two groups: the whores and submitted. Facilitating and legitimizing social control.
The Burkini debate is precisely this way of imposing a cultural and religious element, arguing that any challenge on this is necessarily Islamophobic. And it works well. Because it necessarily attracts those who are blinded by humanism and those that are racists to the fingertips , killing any possible debate.
As a result it's very hard to worry about the rise of the Burka/Burkini without going to be a Nazi aficionado of the final solution to the Muslims, the perfect intellectual trap. You can see it here, you're insulting me just because i don't like the easy way of answering.
Sorry but i'm not into propagating the wrong ideas in public spaces, in ANY religion. And burka/burkini had nothing to do with the muslim world just 20 years ago! Who is marginalizing who here ? French or muslim radicalist preachers ?
GrantDaNasty
Member
Not sure I see the point of this.
All it will end up doing is giving ISIS more evidence that "The Western World" oppresses their people and their rights, thus creating new waves of sympathizers and the cycle will never end.
I know the multiple different styles of clothing women are forced to wear seems oppressive and unfair, but ultimately it's their choice. If they wish to wear these outfits in countries where islamic culture has no real power, forcing them not to only helps these radicals prove their point, right?
All it will end up doing is giving ISIS more evidence that "The Western World" oppresses their people and their rights, thus creating new waves of sympathizers and the cycle will never end.
I know the multiple different styles of clothing women are forced to wear seems oppressive and unfair, but ultimately it's their choice. If they wish to wear these outfits in countries where islamic culture has no real power, forcing them not to only helps these radicals prove their point, right?
TheStruggler
Report me for trolling ND/TLoU2 threads
Reminds me of Stephen Harper on how he wanted to ban the hijab thinking he was doing people a public service. It is their right to wear it as a Canadian citizen if they choose to wear it that is their right, and he wanted to take that right away from them.
Necromanti
Member
The only one being punished by this is women. People won't abandon their way of life in response; they'll simply just stop going to the beach in question.
TheStruggler
Report me for trolling ND/TLoU2 threads
just because they choose to cover up doesnt mean they still cant be fashionable while doing it as well
Lamel
Banned
Yeah I know, I am just pointing out how ridiculous it is to single out this one style of clothing, when people can easily emulate it without it being an actual "burkini".
It's ludicrous to think someone who doesn't want show thier body is supporting extremist ideology, what type of imbecile must you be to make that leap. France has a considerable Muslim population, they are part of the French fabric, this type of reactionary legislation does nothing to improve things or tackle the very real problem of Islamism but put off families from going to the beach and enjoy what France has to offer.
I think forks and spoons are stupid, lets ban that too.
Bow to the all mighty spork.
But seriously, just because an article of clothing is not to your liking, you shouldn't be okay with civil liberties being encroached upon because of fear mongering.
That looks like something from the early 1900's.
If a non-Muslim woman happens to be uncomfortable wearing butt floss in public and wants to wear that to the beach instead, they have that right.
The burkini is progress. Without it, these Muslim women would shy away from the beach. Give it a few years and the hemlines will rise, as they always do. Or ban the burkini, and force these women back behind closed doors.
This is pretty ridiculous and doesn't even come close to addressing the real issues in France. Having said that, Cannes is like a 20min train ride from Nice and you have a lot of emotional people, so irrational decisions are not surprising. Any way to feel like they have control after that awful event.
In france a public servant can't wear a religious sign nothing to do with racism or a pseudo sense of superiority
His Majesty
Banned
No wearing a balaclava is also banned in a lot of countries where the burqa is banned.
Way to legitimize otherism/ persecution complexes.
:edit:
No seriously fuck this. I'm not anywhere near there but somehow I am fairly certain that this issue isn't going to save any lives or make the difference between radicalization or not. All it does is massage the fee fees if dumb assholes while preventing people wishing to exercise the covenant between them and their religion from going to the beach.
:edit:
No seriously fuck this. I'm not anywhere near there but somehow I am fairly certain that this issue isn't going to save any lives or make the difference between radicalization or not. All it does is massage the fee fees if dumb assholes while preventing people wishing to exercise the covenant between them and their religion from going to the beach.
While this is true, this action doesn't help. Just denies them access to the beach.
You still think Isis cares about what happens to Muslims?
Ghostandgoblin
Member
I love seeing a lot of people saying "wow France you're so backward", when it's the decision of one UMP mayor in one small city in the whole country (well maybe a second mayor is trying to do the same, but well 
).
This decision is a clear attempt to feed on the actual media coverage of such topics, a topic concerning a minority of the french muslim population. Burkinis are not widely used here at all, it's just to make some noise and gather far rights activists
).This decision is a clear attempt to feed on the actual media coverage of such topics, a topic concerning a minority of the french muslim population. Burkinis are not widely used here at all, it's just to make some noise and gather far rights activists
Cannes' mayor wants to please his electorate.
Nothing more, nothing less.
Stop with this, guys.
It's not the government but the mayor of a city in France, among 36000 other ones, who's taking measures applying locally.
I bet it'll be taken down, as freedom of religion is granted by the first article of our constitution and the mayor will have a hard time proving that wearing a burkini (or a wet suit) would cause some public disorder.
Fixed that for you. Public services must respect the principles of laïcité.
Private schools with religious ties are a thing, though, and are even partially funded by the state.
Hyperactivity
Banned
You think they don't profit from Muslims being alienated?
All modesty standards are culturally enforced. But if the government banned all clothing tomorrow you'd still feel fucking uncomfortable wandering around naked. You can't forceably undo those standards and it baffles me that people that know what's best think they can.
Xisiqomelir
Member
I hope they ban them in swimming pools for hygiene.
Voysa Reezun
Banned
This is an attempt to split hairs that I don't buy. One can levy the "don't indoctrinate" argument against any parents who bring their children to any community, religious or not, that shares and reinforces value systems. I disagree that this is inherently a bad thing.
I also think "God says 'do not kill,' so we shouldn't do it" is an astonishingly simple way to view a typical religious teaching, but that is well beyond the scope of this discussion, and I am already breaking my "do not discuss religion on the internet" rule as it is. But thanks for the response.
It is banned from swimming pool for hygienic reasons
Power to them I guess.
Though it wouldn't surprise me if the timeline holds up that if they start trying to be more daring you'll have in 10-15 years people walking around beaches with rulers checking of Muslim women are being "indecent".
I do think banning the burkini is way too extreme and stupid of a decision. If they wanna wear it, they should be able to, can't see how it harms anyone else on a beach.1.5 cm more and it would be blasphemy!
I do also to be honest find the burkini a bit funny, as a sort of "stuck in time"-thing for us westerners who saw this sort of stuff 100 years ago, also imposed for religious reasons if I recall correctly.
DiipuSurotu
Banned
Welp. Another French city has decided to ban burkinis on beaches.
Bear in mind that Villeneuve-Loubet is a very small town though. The mayor just wants to be in the news by imitating the bigger politicians.
Bear in mind that Villeneuve-Loubet is a very small town though. The mayor just wants to be in the news by imitating the bigger politicians.
GrantDaNasty
Member
It ain't just Muslims signing up for ISIS. There are people world-wide who are naive enough to believe ISIS is fighting for some just cause, and seeing as most of their actions are centered around the middle eastern region, any news regarding the oppression against muslims would absolutely be used by them as propaganda, regardless of whom their actions affect (Trust me, I'm well aware ISIS doesn't give a fuck who they harm, including other muslims and arabs, such as those suffering in Libya, Iraq and Syria).
Audioboxer
Member
You are right. I apologise for not being more careful simply saying "France ...".
Let people wear what they want to the beach.
That said, the fact that this thing exists and there are millions of women being forced to it even if they'd prefer to let the air, water and sunlight touch their skin on a fucking 35º day is revolting.
Banning it won't make any good though. On the contrary. This a stupid decision. It's up to them to realize how completely negated they are as women -and as a person- by detestable religious beliefs and the men who perpetuate it for their own interests. It's not up to the government of France.
That said, the fact that this thing exists and there are millions of women being forced to it even if they'd prefer to let the air, water and sunlight touch their skin on a fucking 35º day is revolting.
Banning it won't make any good though. On the contrary. This a stupid decision. It's up to them to realize how completely negated they are as women -and as a person- by detestable religious beliefs and the men who perpetuate it for their own interests. It's not up to the government of France.
DiipuSurotu
Banned
FrozenCell
Member
aren't burkinis made to be safer for the wearer than swimming in the traditional outfit?
Royal_Phalanx
Member
Only seen a handful around here. Most Muslim women here either wear a hijab or have no head covering.
I do think that all this "women must be covered up" stuff is ultimately a form of oppression (as it comes from the belief that men cannot control their urges and it's the woman's fault for looking sexy when he rapes her) but bans are not the way to stop this mentality. Ultimately the people who do that need to change their minds and pestering them with random bans and antagonism is more likely to do the opposite.
Royal_Phalanx
Member
aren't burkinis made to be safer for the wearer than swimming in the traditional outfit?
This pic makes me really sad
DiipuSurotu
Banned
harriet the spy
Member
I can't generalize - I did have a friend in middle school (a long time ago) that complained her brother wanted her to wear a hijab.
According to interviews - it's a mix
https://www.loc.gov/law/help/france-veil.php#t12
(Note this is about the niqab)
As for your question - it's a mix as well. There is fear and xenophobia, and the very French concept of laicite that Americans can't wrap their heads around. I did remember some tension in my high schools that two girls were wearing two very noticeable crosses that many students complained about
RustyNails
Member
Another French city bans Burqini: Corsica
Burkini ban: Corsica mayor prohibits Islamic swimsuit after beach brawl on French island
Burkini ban: Corsica mayor prohibits Islamic swimsuit after beach brawl on French island
http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2016-08-16/corsica-mayor-becomes-third-to-ban-burkini/7746476
Rocket Scientist
Member
Sad. Instead of being happy that these women are taking part in the daily french life and activities they ban them from the public space. I saw an arab family who's children were swimming in full clothes. Next thing they're going to ban swimming in your clothes.
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