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[le-seb]

So how Manuel Walls is actually carrying about muslims sense of dignity while insulting the veil whenever he can ? He even said that veil ban should be extended to the University.

And nobody supported him. Neither the State Secretary for University Education, nor the Education Minister who both told him the current state of things was fine as it was (students being adults at this point and allowed to express any political or religious opinion they want, as long as they don't break laws).

There's more to a government than its Prime Minister's voice, you know?

He is certainly not a friend of muslims, he is pushing the anti-muslims laws (condemned by Amnesty International) forward.

I know he's being regularly called out by Amnesty International for various reasons, but this is new to me.
What laws are you talking about?

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

And nobody supported him. Neither the State Secretary for University Education, nor the Education Minister who both told him the current state of things was fine as it was (students being adults at this point and allowed to express any political or religious opinion they want, as long as they don't break laws).

There's more to a government than its Prime Minister's voice, you know?


I know he's being regularly called out by Amnesty International for various reasons, but this is new to me.
What laws are you talking about?

I never said the whole government supported the action, but prime minister is not only a "few racist mayors".

I am speaking about 2004 law that ban hijab in public school, and please don't go in that "it wasn't against hijab" nobody believe it, and the 2010 law that ban niqab in public space.

 

[Tiberius]

I never said the whole government supported the action, but prime minister is not only a "few racist mayors".

I am speaking about 2004 law that ban hijab in public school, and please don't go in that "it wasn't against hijab" nobody believe it, and the 2010 law that ban niqab in public space.

What's the problem to ban niquab and burka in public space ?

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

What's the problem to ban niquab and burka in public space ?

Amnesty International:

Amnesty International believes that such general prohibitions on the wearing of full face veils would violate the rights to freedom of expression and religion of those women who choose to wear a full face veil as an expression of their religious, cultural, political or personal identity or beliefs. Amnesty International therefore urges states not to adopt such legislation, and calls on states to take a range of measures to ensure that all women are able to exercise their rights free from coercion, harassment and discrimination.
States have an obligation under international law to respect the human rights of everyone without discrimination on the basis of race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status; to protect them against abuses of those rights by third parties, including by private actors within their families or communities; and to ensure they are able to exercise those rights in practice.
Under international human rights law everyone has the rights to freedom of expression and freedom to manifest their religion or beliefs; these freedoms extend to the way in which people choose to dress. States must therefore not impose generally applicable requirements that women dress or do not dress in a certain way, and they must protect women from the imposition of such requirements by third parties. It is wrong for women to be compelled to wear a headscarf or veil, either by the state or by non-state actors; it is also wrong for women to be prohibited by law from wearing it.

 

[le-seb]

I never said the whole government supported the action, but prime minister is not only a "few racist mayors".

The Prime Minister having opinions and expressing them freely doesn't change the fact that the government itself has nothing to do with those decrees.
Which was and still is my point.

I am speaking about 2004 law that ban hijab in public school, and please don't go in that "it wasn't against hijab" nobody believe it

It was not only against the veil, but against any ostentatious religious sign in public, secular, schools.
Catholic crosses, Jewish Kippahs were also banned. And this law simply enforced rules that dated back from 1905.

How is it 'anti-muslim'?

And Jean-Pierre Raffarin was the Prime Minister at that time (Jacques Chirac was the president).
What does Valls has to do with this?

, and the 2010 law that ban niqab in public space.

François Fillon was the Prime Minister at that time (Nicolas Sarkozy was the president).
What does Valls has to do with this?

You may not like the man (I know I don't), but it's not a reason to accuse him of things he hasn't done...

 

[Tiberius]

Amnesty International:

Yes and ? That's just the opinion of an ngo

The law was challenged and taken to the European Court of Human Rights which upheld the French law on 1 July 2014, accepting the argument of the French government that the law was based on "a certain idea of living together

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

The Prime Minister having opinions and expressing them freely doesn't change the fact that the government itself has nothing to do with those decrees.
Which was and still is my point.

Somebody said that it have nothing to do with the government. The leading minister of a government supporting the action is enough to show that the government tacitly approve the move.

It was not only|/i] against the veil, but against any ostentatious religious sign in public, secular, schools.
Catholic crosses, Jewish Kippahs were also banned. And this law simply enforced rules that dated back from 1905.

How is it 'anti-muslim'?

Where in the law of 1905 there is anything about showing "ostentatious religious" in public school ? The 1905 law (you can read it) have nothing to do about users of public services, but with public services in itself. In the 70 and 80, young jews will go to school with their kippa on. The 2004 law is a response to the hijab "crisis" of the 90s.

François Fillon was the Prime Minister at that time.
What does Valls has to do with this?

I never said he have something to do with these laws, i said he was working in continuity with this islamophobic wave of laws when he is calling to the ban of hijab in University.

There is nothing such as "private opinion" when you are speaking as a Prime Minister. He's making political moves.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

Yes and ? That's just the opinion of an ngo

The law was challenged and taken to the European Court of Human Rights which upheld the French law on 1 July 2014, accepting the argument of the French government that the law was based on "a certain idea of living together

You asked what is the problem with niqab ban of 2010, so i give you my opinion.
It's funny to see how humans right ngo "opinions" cease to matter when applied to european countries.
The decision of the European Court of Human Rights was denounced by Amnesty International as well.

There is an intrinsical value to the NGO like Amnesty International, it's that they are not (generally) politically motivated entities, and they will criticize Iran or France by the same standard.

 

[RustyNails]

Yes and ? That's just the opinion of an ngo

The law was challenged and taken to the European Court of Human Rights which upheld the French law on 1 July 2014, accepting the argument of the French government that the law was based on "a certain idea of living together

Just an opinion of an ngo. Dismiss anything that doesn't fit your agenda? Courts are decided by judges. In US, the outcome of a supreme court depends on the political persuation of the judges.

Human Rights Watch blasted the european court's decision

(Paris) – The European Court of Human Rights’ ruling approving France’s blanket ban on full-face veils undermines Muslim women’s rights, Human Rights Watch said today. The ban interferes with women’s rights to express their religion and beliefs freely and to personal autonomy.

“It’s disappointing that the European Court has given its seal of approval to France’s blanket ban on full-face veils in public,” said Izza Leghtas, Western Europe researcher at Human Rights Watch. “Bans like these undermine the rights of women who choose to wear the veil and do little to protect anyone compelled to do so, just as laws in other countries forcing women to dress in a particular way undermine their rights.”

Since France introduced the ban in 2010, Human Rights Watch and others have contended that it breaches the rights to freedom of religion and expression of those who choose to wear the niqab or burqa and is discriminatory. Similar bans on full-face veils are in force in Belgium and in several towns in Catalonia, Spain.

Bans of this nature – whether formulated in neutral terms or explicitly targeting the Muslim veil – have a disproportionate impact on Muslim women, and thereby violate the right to not be discriminated against on the basis of religion and gender, Human Rights Watch said.

The European Court has previously upheld restrictions on religious dress affecting the wearing of the headscarf in educational institutions in Turkey and Switzerland. With this Grand Chamber ruling on the case of S.A.S v France, the court took a position for the first time on blanket bans on full-face veils in public. While the court rejected the French government’s arguments that the ban was necessary to protect security and equality between men and women, it ruled that the ban was justified for the ill-defined aim of “living together,” accepting the French government’s case that a full-face veil prevents interaction between individuals.

A minority of judges, in a separate opinion, rejected the argument that the blanket ban pursued a legitimate aim and said that, in any event, the ban was far-reaching and not necessary in a democratic society. They said the decision “sacrifices concrete individual rights guaranteed by the Convention to abstract principles,” referring to the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR).

https://www.hrw.org/news/2014/07/03/france-face-veil-ruling-undermines-rights

 

[Tiberius]

Just an opinion of an ngo. Dismiss anything that doesn't fit your agenda? Courts are decided by judges. In US, the outcome of a supreme court depends on the political persuation of the judges.

Human Rights Watch blasted the european court's decision

https://www.hrw.org/news/2014/07/03/france-face-veil-ruling-undermines-rights

Yes that's just an opinion, because they are ngo that don't mean their words are the absolute truth

 

[Baybars]

I assume even if you're a christian woman or atheist woman in most muslim countries, that you have to wear muslim garbs just to follow customs or laws. I'd be glad to be proven wrong though.

Heh you assume wrong. Even in saudi arabia non muslims do not wear muslim garb.

 

[RustyNails]

Yes that's just an opinion, because they are ngo that don't mean their words are the absolute truth

There is no such thing as absolute truth, other than mathematics. I dont think I have to explain to you why organizations like Amnesty and HRW are beacons of human rights advocacy around the world. Their words carry weight and lot of meaning. UN uses them. Countries get blasted when their reports come out. You have no right to dismiss them as some clueless peacenik groups because they came out against violation of human rights in France.

 

[harriet the spy]

Heh you assume wrong. Even in Saudi arabia non muslims do not wear muslim garb.

If they live in their own community perhaps. It's very frequent for women - especially western women - to be called unpleasant names / be harassed in the street if they do not to conform to Muslim dress.

On topic (note I personally think this law is complete bs) it's very likely that part of the reason is trying to cater to tourists who are deserting France after the attacks.

 

[BajiBoxer]

Heh you assume wrong. Even in saudi arabia non muslims do not wear muslim garb.

I thought foreign women were required to wear an "abaya" in public in Saudi Arabia?

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

I thought foreign women were required to wear an "abaya" in public in Saudi Arabia?

Muslim women must wear hijab in Saudi Arabia.
And it's the 2nd most radical muslim country in the world about what women should wear or not and yet they don't force foreign women to wear like saudi women. You have 52 other countries where muslim women or non-muslim women are free to use hijab or not.

If tomorrow all those muslim countries would enforce hijab on their citizen and tourist, there would be a massive denunciation from the same who are today praising the burkini ban in France. It's just totally inconsistent. If you agree to the burkini ban, you cannot say nothing about iran policy on women clothing.

 

[Zakalwe]

This shit is so self-sabotaging. It perpetuates the exact thing hey claim to be trying to prevent.

Incredibly frustrating to witness.

 

[Baybars]

If they live in their own community perhaps. It's very frequent for women - especially western women - to be called unpleasant names / be harassed in the street if they do not to conform to Muslim dress.

On topic (note I personally think this law is complete bs) it's very likely that part of the reason is trying to cater to tourists who are deserting France after the attacks.

Says who? Harrassing women in saudi is a serious crime. This is a land where if you steal you get your hands cut off. so the onus is on you to prove that.

 

[Necromanti]

Says who? Harrassing women in saudi is a serious crime. This is a land where if you steal you get your hands cut off. so the onus is on you to prove that.

It's true in Riyadh (a decade and a half ago), at least. Muttawa will yell at you as a woman if you're not adequately covering your skin and hair. (I've heard of people who've had stones lobbed at them, as well.) Maybe it's different in other cities, though. I heard Jeddah was better.

 

[Baybars]

There is a daily mail article going around where a muslim woman is stripped. When i read this story, i am more angry at the muslims who are willingly subjecting themselves to such humiliation. No sane muslim should be living in france. If folks are complaining they should simply leave the country. Let the french do what they please. It's their land[

I thought foreign women were required to wear an "abaya" in public in Saudi Arabia?

No. You thought wrong. Take a trip to saudi with your female relatives and see what happens

 

[Baybars]

It's true in Riyadh (a decade and a half ago), at least. Muttawa will yell at you as a woman if you're not adequately covering your skin and hair. (I've heard of people who've had stones lobbed at them, as well.) Maybe it's different in other cities, though. I heard Jeddah was better.

Riyadh is supposed to be the more tolerant since its the hub and the capital of city. More foreigners are in riyadh than anywhere else.

As for the muttawaeen, they used to be stern at muslim women and men in general but their powers has been curbed largely by king abdullah. But not even them can force a woman to wear something she does not want to.

 

[le-seb]

The leading minister of a government supporting the action is enough to show that the government tacitly approve the move.

That's not how it works, though.

Whatever nonsense Valls says doesn't necessarily translates in laws.
And without support from his political friends, he can't make laws that will apply nationwide.

Those decrees we're talking about are not laws (from a left wing government) but local decrees (mostly taken by right wing mayors).

How can't people tell the difference?

The 2004 law is a response to the hijab "crisis" of the 90s.

Growing religious communitarianism and proselytism in public secular schools was the crisis that needed to be dealt with, not just people wearing the veil.

But again, it targets any religion, so how can you seriously call it an 'anti-muslims law' when it's in fact a law enforcing secularity?

I never said he have something to do with these laws, i said he was working in continuity with this islamophobic wave of laws when he is calling to the ban of hijab in University.

That's not really how I read it, but whatever.

So, we have a law from 2004 that targets any ostentatious religious signs in public schools, another one from 2010 that prohibits wandering around the public space with your face covered (I admit this one clearly targeted the niqab, partly because it prevented police officers from controlling identity), a Prime Minister who think those same ostentatious religious signs should be banned from university but gets no support from his own ministers, and a bunch of mayors who took questionable temporary measures to appease the fears of citizens / please their racist electorate following terror attacks.

Either we're fucked or it's much ado about nothing.
Given I'm in close contact with Muslims every day, and they seem to live their lives peacefully, I'm tempted to say it's the latter.

 

[Spyder_Monkey]

Disgusting and ignorant. The western world needs to get its head out of its ass and start distinguishing muslims as our fellow brothers and sisters and terrorist that not only want this, but terrorize everyone including muslims.

 

[Necromanti]

Riyadh is supposed to be the more tolerant since its the hub and the capital of city. More foreigners are in riyadh than anywhere else.

As for the muttawaeen, they used to be stern at muslim women and men in general but their powers has been curbed largely by king abdullah. But not even them can force a woman to wear something she does not want to.

It's possible it has changed since I lived there last. It was quite a while ago.

 

[Jumeira]

A Muslim Frenchwoman says she was fined and faced racial abuse for wearing a hair-covering veil on a Cannes beach.

The woman, a Toulouse native named only as Siam, was strolling on the beach while on holiday with her two children.

She said she was told by three police officers that her clothing was "not correct". Meanwhile, she says, a crowd gathered, some shouting: "Go home!"

...

In this case, Siam, 34, says she was wearing not a burkini but a hijab covering only her hair, along with leggings and a tunic.

"I wasn't intending on bathing, just dipping my feet in the water," Siam told L'Obs news website (in French).

Approached by the police officers, Siam says they asked her whether she was aware of the order in force in Cannes, and she said she had not followed it closely.
She says she was then told that beach users had to wear "proper dress". The officers suggested she could remain on the beach if she rearranged her scarf as a headband around the head.

She refused, and was fined €11 (£9.45; $12.45) - a fine which, reports suggest, she will contest.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37168192

Holy shit this is the exact type of atmosphere most muslims feared, racists out in force and the Police are now fining for wearing hijabs. What did the Mayor think would happen? He portrayed their clothing as antagonistic to others, the fault is not with peoples ignorance but minorities and their clothing. What will the children of Siam think? The town is picking on their mother for no reason, do you honestly think with treatment like this they grow up to feel as if their part of the community or build distrust for being mistreated? This is pure discrimination. I hope she builds a case and takes them to court.

 

[Mael]

Wait they have a problem with muslim wearing any kind of veil in public schools?
Are they daft on purpose?
Par for the course for the political class that is so hell bent on destroying anything related to schools anyway.
Now they want to remove people from schools if they wear any kind of religious attire.
And of course they've been ok with nuns and priests being on school grounds forever anyway.
What a bunch of hypocrites.

And they bent over backwards to try to make an exception for nuns when it appeared that one couldn't have an ID with a veil on their head.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

That's not how it works, though.

Whatever nonsense Valls says doesn't necessarily translates in laws.
And without support from his political friends, he can't make laws that will apply nationwide.

I never said that it would. Can we stop arguing about things i didn't say ?

Those decrees we're talking about are not laws (from a left wing government) but local decrees (mostly taken by right wing mayors).

How can't people tell the difference?

Left-wing government give me a break, it's even less popular than Sarkozy rule and the law they forced by presidential decree is a neo-liberal dream.
The "socialist party" in France is a damn joke.

Growing religious communitarianism and proselytism in public secular schools was the crisis that needed to be dealt with, not just people wearing the veil.

But again, it targets any religion, so how can you seriously call it an 'anti-muslims law' when it's in fact a law enforcing secularity?

Nothing to do with secularity as defined by 1905 law. Please, again, show me the relation with any article of the 1905 law. The 1905 law don't speak about users of public institutions but about the institutions themselves.

Wearing a hijab is not "proselytism" it's a religious practice. Proselytism is calling other people to one religion. The hijab is not even a religious symbol. It's not like a cross. The equivalent of a cross would be to wear a crescent, i guess.
You don't wear a hijab to say "i am a muslim", you do it because you understand it as a religious mandate. Like the beard.

Also, fighting against communautarism by sending young muslim girls to private muslims school, a great move really.

Either we're fucked or it's much ado about nothing.
Given I'm in close contact with Muslims every day, and they seem to live their lives peacefully, I'm tempted to say it's the latter.

Say that to the thousands of young adolescent who were expelled from high school because of their hijab. Very useful indeed for women emancipation cause.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

T No sane muslim should be living in france. If folks are complaining they should simply leave the country. Let the french do what they please. It's their land.

And french muslims ? Where should they go?

If every minority flee every time they face discrimination, no society will ever progress.

 

[Baybars]

And french muslims ?

If every minority flee every time they face discrimination, no society will ever progress.

France does not care about it's muslim citizens. It goes out of its way to antagonise them. Hell look at how the beach goers reacted to siam telling her to go home. French muslims cannot win this battle. It's best to leave and settle in a country less hostile to them.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

France does not care about it's muslim citizens. It goes out of its way to antagonise them. Hell look at how the beach goers reacted to siam telling her to go home. French muslims cannot win this battle. It's best to leave and settle in a country less hostile to them.

So 6 millions people should take the road to exile for a beach incident and some discriminatory law ? If you look to the US, ethnic and religious minority faced infinitely harder issues and managed to survive somewhat and break the legal discriminations.

I think it will eventually resolve itself with the passing of generations, study show that young people are far less islamophobic than the old. It's have nothing to do with french constitution or fundamental laws, it's just some populist crap.

 

[harriet the spy]

Wait they have a problem with muslim wearing any kind of veil in public schools?
Are they daft on purpose?
Par for the course for the political class that is so hell bent on destroying anything related to schools anyway.
Now they want to remove people from schools if they wear any kind of religious attire.
And of course they've been ok with nuns and priests being on school grounds forever anyway.
What a bunch of hypocrites.

And they bent over backwards to try to make an exception for nuns when it appeared that one couldn't have an ID with a veil on their head.

Nuns and priests on government school grounds? In France? Where ?

 

[Mael]

Nuns and priests on government school grounds? In France? Where ?

That was certainly not rare sight in the 80's/90's.
And as long as the religious officials are not teaching, what's the fuss anyway?
When you have cults (in the EU way of speaking) that are preying on young students and their families anyway, I'd guess there's more important matters.
You have also to know about private schools that get public funds and also have religion classes, but hey who gives a shit it's not about the dirty muslims.

 

[harriet the spy]

That was certainly a not rare sight in the 80's/90's.
You have also to know about private schools that get public funds and also have religion classes, but hey who gives a shit it's not about the dirty muslims.

I very much doubt this . Can you find any evidence? Why in the world would there be a frigging priest on school grounds in any official capacity? There is no religious education and proselytism is forbidden.
Lycee Averroes also gets public funding (through the government paying its teachers salaries)
(But I don't think any religious establishment should get any funding whatsoever . Fuck the concordat too)

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

(But I don't think any religious establishment should get any funding whatsoever . Fuck the concordat too)

Since everybody pay taxes in France, it's quite fair that private establishments receive some kind of compensation, since they are removing some charge for the public school.

 

[Mael]

I very much doubt this . Can you find any evidence? Why in the world would there be a frigging priest on school grounds in any official capacity? There is no religious education and proselytism is forbidden.
Lycee Averroes also gets public funding (through the government paying its teachers salaries)

Wait a min, that's a mistake on my part.
Churches have actual possession close to schools where stuffs like that happen.
As for priests on school grounds, they're not fucking vampires.
As for proselytism, there's messages for the local churches if someone is interested, I would know because there was no way I would have gotten to the one close to my school when I wasn't even part of the school district anyway.

And btw Alsace-Lorraine are not under 1905 law so they're still under concordat, it's been more than a century and most issues with schools and religions since then are not exactly from these places.
So I'd say it's really that big a harm either.

 

[harriet the spy]

Since everybody pay taxes in France, it's quite fair that private establishments receive some kind of compensation, since they are removing some charge for the public school.

Nah. It's the bush argument for vouchers and it's a stupid one. There is a public system - if you don't want to use it, you are on your own. I don't have kids or a tv and yet my taxes pay for schools and public television.

 

[NYCmetsfan]

four policemen to make sure this women shows skin! Good job France!

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world...front-French-woman-wearing-burkini-on-a-beach

Shocking photographs show four burly officers surrounding the middle-aged Muslim woman and demanding that she remove the full-length Islamic swimsuit or face a fine.

The stunning showdown took place on the Promenade des Anglais, in Nice, just yards from where an Islamic State (ISIS) terrorist killed 86 people in a Bastille Day lorry attack.

The mayor of the popular Riviera city recently followed the example of several other French beach resorts by introducing a ban on the burkini, saying it was against the country's secular values.

It is believed the woman was handed an on the spot fine when she refused to remove the garment.

The incident happened after a young Muslim mother on the beach at Cannes - which has also banned the burkini - was ordered off the beach and fined for wearing a headscarf.

In that case three armed officers pointed a pepper spray canister in the 34-year-old's face and told her she was in breach of a new rule outlawing swimming costumes that cover the entire body.

Mathilde Cusin, a journalist with the France 4 TV channel who witnessed the entire incident, said: "I saw three police officers watching the beach. One of them had his finger on the trigger of his tear gas device, no doubt containing pepper."

She reported that people then started shouting insults at Siam, telling her she was not welcome in France, and that she should "go home".

Ms Cusin said: "It was pretty violent. I had the impression of a pack going after a woman sitting on the ground, crying with her daughter."

This is violent religious oppression

 

[Mael]

Nah. It's the bush argument for vouchers and it's a stupid one. There is a public system - if you don't want to use it, you are on your own. I don't have kids or a tv and yet my taxes pay for schools and public television.

I didn't have car and I didn't use the local pool, I sure as hell paid for the maintenance of the roads and the local pool too.
if you do not have a tv you do not pay for public television, there's a checkbox to make sure of that you know.

https://twitter.com/SubMedina/status/768202266859884544

four policemen to make sure this women shows skin! Good job France!

-_-'

 

[harriet the spy]

Wait a min, that's a mistake on my part.
Churches have actual possession close to schools where stuffs like that happen.
As for priests on school grounds, they're not fucking vampires.
As for proselytism, there's messages for the local churches if someone is interested, I would know because there was no way I would have gotten to the one close to my school when I wasn't even part of the school district anyway.

They are not vampires but they have no reason to be in school grounds anyway. I went to a public school and the only people supposed to be there are kids, teachers, and sometimes parents. It's not a tourist attraction - you are not supposed to enter schools for the hell of it - and many, many schools enforce this (probably to avoid lightweight drug trafficking but w/e). I seriously doubt it was 'common' as you say it. I'm not going to say it didn't happen - minor rules get broken all the time - but it's seriously not supposed to.

 

[harriet the spy]

I didn't have car and I didn't use the local pool, I sure as hell paid for the maintenance of the roads and the local pool too.
if you do not have a tv you do not pay for public television, there's a checkbox to make sure of that you know.



-_-'

I agree - this was my argument . We shouldn't get rebates. As for TV - I didn't know!

 

[orochi91]

four policemen to make sure this women shows skin! Good job France!

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world...front-French-woman-wearing-burkini-on-a-beach

The mayor of Nice can go fuck himself.

Such a vindictive bastard.

 

[GuessMyUserName]

.

Jesus fuck this pisses me off.

Anyone here to defend this?

 

[Llyranor]

four policemen to make sure this women shows skin! Good job France!

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world...front-French-woman-wearing-burkini-on-a-beach





This is violent religious oppression

Absolutely disgusting.

 

[Shadowheart]

The authorities will need to distinguish between swimmers in burkinis and wetsuits

That's the stupidest thing I read: you think a person in a wetsuit will be splashing about on the beach? And you have to be an idiot not to immediately notice witch is witch.

In any case, since the reason women cover up in religion is to be fuckable brides (with the whole religion obsession with virginity bullshit) I don't care. What I do agree with is having your face visible in places like businesses, banks, etc. for both security reasons and as a natural fucking way for our species to communicate.

 

[Mael]

Pepper spraying random women on beaches?
Yeah it's totally to fight islamic terrorism!

I agree - this was my argument . We shouldn't get rebates. As for TV - I didn't know!

Look up this on the 1rst page of your tax sheet

As for the private school, as long as they provide the correct teaching to their students and the budgets are well kept, teachers could certainly be paid by the state since they're providing the same service that they would in a public school.
considering how big of a joke the school districting is in France, I don't really see an issue here.

They are not vampires but they have no reason to be in school grounds anyway. I went to a public school and the only people supposed to be there are kids, teachers, and sometimes parents. It's not a tourist attraction - you are not supposed to enter schools for the hell of it - and many, many schools enforce this (probably to avoid lightweight drug trafficking but w/e). I seriously doubt it was 'common' as you say it. I'm not going to say it didn't happen - minor rules get broken all the time - but it's seriously not supposed to.

Former students can also asy hi to people still in the schools that they know.
Really as long as you identify yourself correctly you shouldn't have an issue although that may have changed since the last wave of terrorist attack.
As for drug trafficking, no one really cared about the issue to make anything about it, that's probably the only constant of the education system.
And again if you have a school association for religious students it shouldn't pose any kind of problem either.
Then again the church has a fuckload of properties it can use all across the territory anyway, and they even allow other faith to use their premises (because they're not fucking assholes unlike that Nice mayor).

 

[le-seb]

Wearing a hijab is not "proselytism" it's a religious practice. Proselytism is calling other people to one religion.

Call it as you want, but I clearly remember incidents where some boys were harassing girls for not wearing the veil and/or being sufficiently dressed to their taste...

The hijab is not even a religious symbol.

...and some where teachers couldn't get boys to take their caps off in class because girls were allowed to keep their veil on.

Teachers don't like disorder in their classes, and that's certainly the main reason why they pushed so hard for this law.

Say that to the thousands of young adolescent who were expelled from high school because of their hijab.

I want to see the receipts.

 

[RustyNails]

four policemen to make sure this women shows skin! Good job France!

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world...front-French-woman-wearing-burkini-on-a-beach





This is violent religious oppression

Reminds me so much of Frantz Fannon's writings on post-colonialism and the issue of veil.

 

[Mael]

Call it as you want, but I clearly remember incidents where some boys were harassing girls for not wearing the veil and/or being sufficiently dressed to their taste...

...and some where teachers couldn't get boys to take their caps off in class because girls were allowed to keep their veil on.

Teachers don't like disorder in their classes, and that's certainly the main reason why they pushed so hard for this law.

I want to see the receipts.

That also never happens in college where wearing the veil was never an issue.
I can bet you could have a male student expelled for wearing a skirt,
having a difference between boys/girls in schools for the veil should really not be an issue.
I guess making an example out of muslims is a bigger priority.

 

[billy beane]

They must have some crazy ass tanlines.

 

[Htown]

four policemen to make sure this women shows skin! Good job France!

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world...front-French-woman-wearing-burkini-on-a-beach





This is violent religious oppression

What are you talking about? They're clearly protecting her from her oppressive culture! It's obvious!

 

[harriet the spy]

Pepper spraying random women on beaches?
Yeah it's totally to fight islamic terrorism!

It's stupid and scary as fuck - but let's not distort the truth. No one got pepper sprayed.

Look up this on the 1rst page of your tax sheet

To be fair I'm in the UK now (but essentially same thing with BBC) .

As for the private school, as long as they provide the correct teaching to their students and the budgets are well kept, teachers could certainly be paid by the state since they're providing the same service that they would in a public school.
considering how big of a joke the school districting is in France, I don't really see an issue here.

I think it's an awful idea personally and goes against separation of church and state. But anyway.

Former students can also asy hi to people still in the schools that they know.
Really as long as you identify yourself correctly you shouldn't have an issue although that may have changed since the last wave of terrorist attack.
As for drug trafficking, no one really cared about the issue to make anything about it, that's probably the only constant of the education system.

Not in both of the high school I went to. I just asked to three French friends and the situation was the same for them. But who knows - maybe my region, but I'm skeptical. And again - vampire or not vampire - what is a priest doing on the school ground? Drug trafficking for me happened exclusively right out of the gate (but not inside ) - everyone knew about it of course but it was a hamsterdam type situation: as long as the schools could pretend they had nothing to do with it they were ok not doing shit about it (and tbh - they couldn't )