Tizoc
Member
Were you playing on Easy? Cuz if you played it on Hard or higher, i.e. the actual Platinum difficulty, you're going to want to mix up your combat.
Transformers: Devastation- System Guide video series
- Thread starter Tizoc
- Start date
Were you playing on Easy? Cuz if you played it on Hard or higher, i.e. the actual Platinum difficulty, you're going to want to mix up your combat.
DevilPower
Member
In my opinion a game which forces you to perform a specific move or use a specific weapon to kill an enemy usually limits your options and deceases the fun factor. I've seen people beat DMC3 on DMD mode without ever knowing about jump cancel... Doesn't mean that the mechanic was useless or the game was poorly designed...
Another good point... For example you don't really need dodge offset in lower difficulties of Bayonetta but at NSIC you definitely need that in order to survive...
grandwizard
Member
I think the game should make you want to vary up your moves and explore the combat system, but it's a fine line they have to balance between leaving it open to explore and railroading you toward certain paths. It could end up like DmC where they have color coded enemies that you are forced to fight in a certain way so they force the player to vary up their moves, regardless of if they were doing that already or not.
I do think that on higher difficulties it's neccessary to do it anyway though, unless you are really trying to only stay within a certain small moveset.
I do think that on higher difficulties it's neccessary to do it anyway though, unless you are really trying to only stay within a certain small moveset.
Weltall Zero
Member
On Prime you definitely have to use 80% of what the game has to stand a chance. If you watch my video above (Bumblebee vs Megs and Starscream), at no point did I intend to make it look flashy, I was just trying to survive. The result is that at times I perform some techniques that are quite flashy (ex. when I use the palm strike command to chain further vehicle mode attacks, etc.) in an entirely natural, utilitarian way, and that is the mark of an awesome action game. You cannot play a character action game anywhere below its highest difficulties, and complain when you can complete it using two moves. It's like playing Street Fighter in story mode on easy and saying the game is shallow because you beat everyone using the sweep.
Note that I don't even use any of the flashier techniques, like the aforementioned Matrix-style slo-mo dive shooting. It's not built into my muscle memory yet, since I discovered how to perform them only shortly before doing that video. Not coincidentally, Saur's videos don't mention these flashier moves yet, since they aren't as crucial as the bread and butter he's explaining right now.
Note that I don't even use any of the flashier techniques, like the aforementioned Matrix-style slo-mo dive shooting. It's not built into my muscle memory yet, since I discovered how to perform them only shortly before doing that video. Not coincidentally, Saur's videos don't mention these flashier moves yet, since they aren't as crucial as the bread and butter he's explaining right now.
Weltall Zero
Member
It's definitely not too demanding, I think it runs at 60FPS on PS3. That said I question whether the GPD ergonomics would be up for it (I haven't tried one but it doesn't feel terribly confortable to play on demanding controller games for long stretches). You have one or are considering getting one for it?
Man, I just realized how much would I pay for a Vita port of this... It could even work without an L2/R2 (map ultimate to a touchscreen button, dodge to circle and interact to triangle).
Weltall Zero
Member
It was actually supposed to be the first in a trilogy IIRC, but who knows what became of that. The ball is probably more on Hasbro's court than anything else.
I think that trilogy thing turned out to be some weird PR-speak for any TF product released in the following three years. Activision just used the usual "looking for the right opportunities" schpiel, but there's no real indication they would even follow up Devastation with more console games necessarily. It's not a lost cause yet, what with the movie coming out, Saito not having any projects currently announced and the game being well received, but I wouldn't hold my breath either.
I would hope that Activision would want to have a game out by the time the new movie releases, as that still seems to be their SOP for games of this nature. Cuz even if there are murmurings that they've downsized their mid-tier game development publishing, they still need to have something to fill the gaps between their big releases, and take advantage of a movie tie in when they can.
It'd also help that the new movie apparently introduces
Hot Rod, which would go hand in hand with how Devastation was set before TF: The Movie. Therefore, a new game could stand to introduce Hot Rod there, as well, whether it's meant to be a strict prequel to "The Movie", or the start of another "Universal Stream" aka a new timeline where things happen differently.
ChamplooJones
Formerly Momotaro
The beauty of this genre is that any player of any skill level can play the way they want to. If you beat the game only using two moves then good for you. Doesn't undermine the combat system at all. You get what you put in.
iconoclast
Member
This is a problem that affects all of Platinum's action games. Being able to cancel any attack at any point with a dodge completely cripples the amount of depth and strategy required in combat. None of your attacks have any meaning when you don't have to commit to them - you can just mindlessly press buttons and you'll never be punished for it. Platinum's best games (Bayonetta, Bayonetta 2, TW101, and MGR to a lesser extent) try to use their scoring/grading systems as a way to add some meaning to your moveset. But that doesn't work for Transformers because its scoring system is so poorly thought out. Any "depth" in its combat remains totally worthless (there's very little, anyway).
Only in Bayonetta 1. I've only done regular Pure Platinum runs in Bayonetta 2 so far.
grandwizard
Member
Can you explain whats wrong with the scoring system?
You mean you won't be punished if you bail on your plan of attack before the move connects. Having strong defense doesn't make your attacks worthless: the focus is on creating windows that permit you to deal damage. If you miss those windows, you'll fail to make headway and give your opponents the opportunity to inflict damage on you.
So while yes, theoretically you could spend all day fighting Blitzwing with light attacks and dodges, but you'll barely damage him; and if your timing isn't 100% perfect he'll only need to land three or four blows to kill you.
This is my experience with Prime, and it's exactly why I love it. I don't care about grades and scoreboards in my action games; I care about overcoming increasingly difficult odds. If I start a fight on challenge mode and my head's not in the game, I'll miss-time my first dodge which will throw off my second and I'll die instantly. If I time that first attack or defence right, I'll be on a path that might lead to victory, but it'll be a longer struggle I'm less likely to survive if I don't take full advantage of any opportunities I create.
Currently stuck on the Megatron and Shockwave challenge and loving every minute of it.
Also, protip: you can "quickdraw" with a fast ranged weapon (Shockwave pistol is great) at the beginning of each challenge. Hit aim, then fire. Time it right and you'll get off a headshot. You'll know you did it because you'll flash, and can instantly vehicle attack. Super fun.
Pyramid head
Banned
I'm by no means a combo video master but the dumbing down of Bayo 2's combat was apparent from the off and wore me down the more I played. The changes made the enemies less fun to combo and fight. Auto-breaking every combo and forcing you to start again adds nothing.
Hell, the official guide even suggests 'just spam chainsaws' for every enemy.
iconoclast
Member
Equip a low level machinegun, dodge, aim, get some headshots while you're in slowmo, and repeat over and over to SS-rank almost every fight in the game. When that doesn't work, spam rush attacks from vehicle form. Using melee combos, completing fights without taking damage, switching weapons, etc. doesn't matter. Great game!
It gives them defense, and some enemy types make you earn the right to counterattack them by entering Witch Time first. That's a crucial part of good action game design. If they wanted to dumb down the combat, they'd remove these elements and let you attack without thought.
ThoughtsOfSpeaking
Banned
Father Rodin with GOD equipped is the stuff of nightmares IMO.
Pyramid head
Banned
I'd say that fun is a far more critical element of good combat design, and I found my attempts to really enjoy Bayo 2's combat to be cockblocked at every turn. Huge chunks of the game disposed of the combat system entirely in favour of button mashing flying sections. The sequel also got rid of a lot of the most fun weapons from the first game and replaced them with a new unsatisfying arsenal. All of the boss fights are now simple damage sponges designed to force you into leaning of the Umbran Climax crutch.
I still go back to Bayo 1 whenever I'm feeling that character action itch but I just can't think of a reason to put the Bayo 2 disc back in the drive again.
Weltall Zero
Member
BTW; I just remembered I started compiling a list of what's in each challenge, since I couldn't find such a list anywhere else. It's not exactly complete (most of the non-standard challenges only list the type of challlenge, not content or differences between them), I should get around to completing it sometime.
01: Cars + Planes (3 waves)
02: Constructicons (all six), Devastator
03: Insecticons
04: Cars (3 waves), Tanks
05: Cars + Planes + Tanks + Insecticons (2 Waves)
06: Planes (4 waves)
07: Cars + Planes + Tanks (3 Waves)
08: Cars + Planes + Insecticons (2 Waves)
09: Starscream + Blitzwing
10: Starscream + Skywarp + Thundercracker
11: Motormaster + Cars + Tanks, Menasor
12: Soundwave + Shockwave
13: Megatron + Starscream
14: Bumblebee, Sideswipe, Wheeljack, Grimlock, Optimus
15: Megatron + Shockwave
16: Megatron + Optimus
17: Bumblebee + Grimlock, Sideswipe + Wheeljack, Optimus
18: Blitzwing + Soundwave, Starscream + Shockwave
19: Cars + Jets + Tanks (many at once), Devastator
20: Motormaster, Skywarp + Thundercracker, Blitzwing, Giant Skrapnell, Starscream, Shockwave, Menasor (with waves of normal enemies in between)
21: Bumblebee, Giant Bombshell, Grimlock, Giant Skrapnell, Sideswipe, Giant Kickback, Wheeljack, Optimus, Hook + Bonecrusher + Scavenger, Long Haul + Scrapper + Mixmaster, Giant Insecticons (all three), Motormaster, Shockwave + Blitzwing, Bumblebee + Wheeljack, Soundwave + Starscream, Grimlock + Sideswipe, Megatron, Optimus (with waves of normal enemies in between)
22: Head to last level
23: Overhead view, Cars + Planes + Tanks
24: Overhead view
25: Overhead view
26: Overhead view
27: Overhead view
28: Protect your allies
29: Protect your allies
30: Protect your allies
31: Protect your allies
32: Protect your allies
33: Reinforcement Battle, Starscream + Skywarp + Thundercracker
34: Reinforcement Battle
35: Finish in time
36: Finish in time
37: Finish in time
38: Finish in time
39: Finish in time
40: Punt the Decepticons
41: Punt the Decepticons
42: Punt the Decepticons
43: Punt the Decepticons
44: Defeat as many as possible
45: Defeat as many as possible
46: Defeat as many as possible
47: Finish in time
48: Finish in time
49: Defeat the Insecticons (Galaga)
50: Defeat the Insecticons (Galaga)
01: Cars + Planes (3 waves)
02: Constructicons (all six), Devastator
03: Insecticons
04: Cars (3 waves), Tanks
05: Cars + Planes + Tanks + Insecticons (2 Waves)
06: Planes (4 waves)
07: Cars + Planes + Tanks (3 Waves)
08: Cars + Planes + Insecticons (2 Waves)
09: Starscream + Blitzwing
10: Starscream + Skywarp + Thundercracker
11: Motormaster + Cars + Tanks, Menasor
12: Soundwave + Shockwave
13: Megatron + Starscream
14: Bumblebee, Sideswipe, Wheeljack, Grimlock, Optimus
15: Megatron + Shockwave
16: Megatron + Optimus
17: Bumblebee + Grimlock, Sideswipe + Wheeljack, Optimus
18: Blitzwing + Soundwave, Starscream + Shockwave
19: Cars + Jets + Tanks (many at once), Devastator
20: Motormaster, Skywarp + Thundercracker, Blitzwing, Giant Skrapnell, Starscream, Shockwave, Menasor (with waves of normal enemies in between)
21: Bumblebee, Giant Bombshell, Grimlock, Giant Skrapnell, Sideswipe, Giant Kickback, Wheeljack, Optimus, Hook + Bonecrusher + Scavenger, Long Haul + Scrapper + Mixmaster, Giant Insecticons (all three), Motormaster, Shockwave + Blitzwing, Bumblebee + Wheeljack, Soundwave + Starscream, Grimlock + Sideswipe, Megatron, Optimus (with waves of normal enemies in between)
22: Head to last level
23: Overhead view, Cars + Planes + Tanks
24: Overhead view
25: Overhead view
26: Overhead view
27: Overhead view
28: Protect your allies
29: Protect your allies
30: Protect your allies
31: Protect your allies
32: Protect your allies
33: Reinforcement Battle, Starscream + Skywarp + Thundercracker
34: Reinforcement Battle
35: Finish in time
36: Finish in time
37: Finish in time
38: Finish in time
39: Finish in time
40: Punt the Decepticons
41: Punt the Decepticons
42: Punt the Decepticons
43: Punt the Decepticons
44: Defeat as many as possible
45: Defeat as many as possible
46: Defeat as many as possible
47: Finish in time
48: Finish in time
49: Defeat the Insecticons (Galaga)
50: Defeat the Insecticons (Galaga)
Lionel Richie
Member
This game is amazing and seriously underrated. Great videos!
Emperor_EL
Member
Spieler Eins
Member
Absolutely amazing game. I found new ways to play even on my third or fourth walkthrough.
Weltall Zero
Member
I'm considering making a complete PC save editor for the game, for those of us who are sick of the weapon system (and especially for me that want to start playing on PC but can't import my PS4 save). This would be for people that have put dozens of hours like me and just want each weapon at maximum level (and possibly with the augments you want) without having to spend hours grinding, fusing, selling, etc.
I'm considering alternatives and it seems that my best option in order to create a .exe that people can use, without having to pay for external tools, would be to make a Python program with the Construct library and then compile it as an .exe. Thing is, I don't know a lick of Python, but I've always been meaning to learn. The save files are entirely unencrypted and don't even have basic CRC, you can edit them directly and the game will eat them up. I've already located the bytes that govern stats, time played, money and weapons, if you want to give yourself 16 million credits just change the bytes 0x660 - 0x663 to FF in [User]\Documents\TRANSFORMERS_Devastation\GameData.dat.
I probably will end up doing this even if it's for myself, unless I hit a roadblock or get bored, but I was wondering if other people would also be interested in it.
I'm considering alternatives and it seems that my best option in order to create a .exe that people can use, without having to pay for external tools, would be to make a Python program with the Construct library and then compile it as an .exe. Thing is, I don't know a lick of Python, but I've always been meaning to learn. The save files are entirely unencrypted and don't even have basic CRC, you can edit them directly and the game will eat them up. I've already located the bytes that govern stats, time played, money and weapons, if you want to give yourself 16 million credits just change the bytes 0x660 - 0x663 to FF in [User]\Documents\TRANSFORMERS_Devastation\GameData.dat.
I probably will end up doing this even if it's for myself, unless I hit a roadblock or get bored, but I was wondering if other people would also be interested in it.
grandwizard
Member
Great new episode. Vehicle attacks at first just seem like the only way to do good damage vs huge armored enemies and bosses but Saur shows off just how useful they are for other things.
Monocle
Member
So basically, if you can play the game with minimum creativity, you should. Great plan!
All of the best action games in existence give players an array of adaptable tools and leave it up to the individual to make their own fun. It's absolutely ridiculous to expect a game that has to appeal to players of all skill levels force you to avoid the path of least resistance. Hint: there is always a path of least resistance.
If you're determined to play a game with a splendidly designed combat system like it's some brainless button masher, that's your own damn fault. The designers' jobs are to provide the potential for creative play, not anticipate certain players' perverse urges to totally ignore the game's complexity because they found a brainless way to "win."
Take responsibility for your own decisions.
Weltall Zero
Member
While I understand you point, he also has one in that previous Platinum games had better thought out scoring systems, where variety and creativity was factored in much better. It is true that a little more effort could have resulted in a much higher incentive to be flashy and elaborate.
Monocle
Member
Anyone who's remotely serious about tapping into the potential of top shelf action game combat isn't in it for the points. If you take scoring systems so seriously, it only makes sense to play like iconoclast described: find a dull but efficient strategy and do the bare minimum to get the job done.
The real appeal of a meaty combat system is in pushing the limits of the mechanics and finding cool applications for the tools you've got. High level play is an end in itself. If you're not in that mindset already, where you're playing with triple Wicked Weaves and Crow Offset in Bayonetta, or unpacking the subtleties of Devastation's Vehicle Attack triggers, a more demanding scoring system isn't going to get you there.
I think you're both right: people play for different reasons. Some want the SS Ranks and points for demonstrating the depth of their creativity; others want to be forced to get creative to beat the game.
I don't care about scores or making an effort to craft stylish combos for their own sake, which is why I love Devil May Cry 1, Ninja Gaiden 2, and TF Devastation; but am less a fan of DMC 3 and Bayonetta. The latter games offer me a huge amount of moves which I find superfluous - I can beat their hardest difficulties without needing to use many of the tools provided.
If TF Devastation's scoring system isn't that great, that's a real shame for players who enjoy fighting for points. But I've found there are fewer action games that teach players virtuosity as a byproduct of strategy than there are games that let players win with a handful of bread and butter moves while allowing them to develop virtuosity for points or pleasure. Devil May Cry 4 does both well (you need to master almost every facet of the game's combat to survive, but you're also rewarded for being as creative as possible), but if TF Devastation only gets the former right, that scratches an itch for me that most recent character action games have failed to reach.
Because, again, the poster suggesting it's possible to beat the game on difficulty levels designed to challenge players (rather than just let them have fun and enjoy the story) is flat out wrong. Even if it is possible to beat Magnus or Prime with nothing but a mastery of the game's timing (which would be incredibly challenging and fun in and of itself: you have to be aware of every enemy and incoming attack on the battlefield so you can dodge and counter perfectly, or you'll die in three hits; so even if every successful counter attack is a mindless mash, the whole experience would still require virtuosity just to land those hits), you'll be much more efficient and will die far less frequently if you have a decent understanding of the plethora of mechanics at your disposal. You don't figure out how to combo into ground pounds, do them for fun a few times, and then never use them again. Once you add a new string to your bow, you'll suddenly find yourself incorporating it into your gameplay because it will help you survive. Obviously this efficiency and virtuosity has to be even more profound when you take on the Challenge Mode and secret missions, should you choose to engage with them.
Given its budget, weird RPG elements, and bizarre loot system, the game really has no right to offer the deep and finely crafted combat system that it does. But I've put more hours into it than any other action game from the past two generations. It's just fun as hell to play, and with five unique characters and dozens of unique weapon types, great pacing, no fat, and flawless enemy and boss designs, it keeps pulling me back in to explore new ways to play.
Weltall Zero
Member
That's my entire point: you can't do that in DMC1-3 or Bayonetta. Also things aren't black or white, much as it seems you're unwilling to concede even an inch of compromise. You aren't forced to either not give a single shit about ratings, or "taking them so seriously that it only makes sense to play in a dull and efficient way". That's a false dichotomy and you know it. Most people will try to get high ranks while also having fun.
That's, to put it simply, stupid. Scoring systems's entire purpose is to teach players to improve their play style; your attitude that you either start out with a will to delve into the most esoteric nuances of the game's system before removing the shrink wrap from the case, or else you're a scrub beyond all hope no matter what you do, is childish elitism and self-aggrandizing.
Ranks in games like DMC and Bayonetta do help the vast majority of people to become better. For most purposes, reaching and maintaining an SS rank in any of these games is challenge and fun enough for most people, and you have no right to tell them they're wrong or subject them to that smug attitude about it.
My brain is mush, just saw the videos and just never appreciated how nuanced the gameplay was - I knew it was deep and could attempt to put that into my play but damn those videos seem to be on a whole new level.
What other games (that I must buy to play) have this level of mechanical thought behind them? Ive likely got most of them but this game just seems to be such a surprise considering its inception.
ps3ud0 8)
What other games (that I must buy to play) have this level of mechanical thought behind them? Ive likely got most of them but this game just seems to be such a surprise considering its inception.
ps3ud0 8)
BKatastrophe
Member
Devil May Cry 3: Special Edition
Devil May Cry 4: Special Edition
Bayonetta
Bayonetta 2
The Wonderful 101
Godhand
Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance
Ninja Gaiden Black
Viewtiful Joe
Vanquish
There's a bunch that I've missed, but that's a solid set to go with
Weltall Zero
Member
The save editor is progressing slowly, as I have to learn the relevant part of Python before implementing anything, and all that is during my free time. But I'll keep at it unless I hit a roadblock.
Solid indeed, I can't think of any game to add to or remove from that list. I'm not experienced with Ninja Gaiden games, are the ones beyond the original less deep?
Solid indeed, I can't think of any game to add to or remove from that list. I'm not experienced with Ninja Gaiden games, are the ones beyond the original less deep?
BKatastrophe
Member
NG3 is absolutely a far more shallow game. I didn't get far enough into Razor's Edge, but it was certainly more well developed than the original.
I've actually enjoyed NG Sigma a lot and don't get the immense disdain for it, but I never played Black. I just put it up there because it's considered the best version and I've played NG and NG Sigma.
As for NG2, I've only played the Sigma version of it and I'm not fond of it. Mostly because I hate a huge chunk of the enemies, so I never bothered to delve
Weltall Zero
Member
Ah, I see. I did know NG3 was very poorly received, but was under the impression that 2 was beloved. I should really get around to play them sometime.
Also, crossposting again from the main thread:
Emperor_EL
Member
Sent a couple saves your way Weltall.
Weltall Zero
Member
Thanks a ton, will look at them tomorrow!
BKatastrophe
Member
NG2 is very beloved. I just simply wasn't a fan of the Sigma version.
Sithlord77
Banned
How is this game for someone who who has no interest in Transformers and knows nothing about them but loves Platinum games (with the exception of the last few releases)
Weltall Zero
Member
A must-buy, as it's one of the most full-fledged Platinum games out there. It's just a joy to play and deeper than the Mariana Trench.
Much like the IDW More than Meets the Eye comic, it might turn you into a Transformers fan by itself.
It's often 10$ on Steam and it's a perfect port as far as I know, and will probably run on a toaster, so there's really no excuse not to have it.
Sithlord77
Banned
A must-buy, as it's one of the most full-fledged Platinum games out there. It's just a joy to play and deeper than the Mariana Trench.
Much like the IDW More than Meets the Eye comic, it might turn you into a Transformers fan by itself.
It's often 10$ on Steam and it's a perfect port as far as I know, and will probably run on a toaster, so there's really no excuse not to have it.
Interesting. I'll make it my next game to play in my backlog
If you're a Platinum fan, you don't need to know or care about Transformers to love this game. Imagine an original Platinum IP in which you control a team of five good robots who are fighting an army of bad robots; and these robots spice up the traditional buttery Platinum melee and gun combat with the unique ability to change into various vehicles/a dinosaur. Now imagine that the enemy and boss designs are some of the best in any character action game.
It's a low budget Platinum masterpiece that still manages to measure up with their best work. Don't make the mistake of lumping it in with Korra and TMNT.
Fimbulvetr
Member
Monocle
Member
Nice, I hope this series lasts much longer than The Umbran Arts, which I still wish Saur would finish, even if he sticks to Bayonetta 1. The Wii U rerelease and XB1 backward compatibility update are totally acceptable pretenses to focus on an older game. It's not like Bayonetta has grown less awesome with time, anyway.
Tizoc
Member
Bump as the game is gonna be a Plus freebie by next week.
Also another opportunity for me to hype that OST:
Insecticons https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k44o6z9fSD0
SOUNDWAVE; THE FURY, THE MADNESS, THE SUPERIOR! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9v41R2jr9E
Also another opportunity for me to hype that OST:
Insecticons https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k44o6z9fSD0
SOUNDWAVE; THE FURY, THE MADNESS, THE SUPERIOR! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9v41R2jr9E
Weltall Zero
Member
A righteous bump if I ever saw one. Fully deserved.