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[LordOfLore]

Or the full title: "Die, Industry, Die! (Or Why Letting Comics Fail is the "Real" Only Way to Save the Industry)".

Pretty long so I'll only quote one part as a teaser:

The absolute best way to get someone interested in reading a comic book is to show them a shelf full of them and let them pick one up that grabs their interest, look inside, and maybe buy it if they feel the urge, and this method is also the easiest way. It requires no elaborate system of payola coverage on niche websites, no private distribution system, no constant carny hucksterism and shallow gimmickry to boost failing sales. All it requires is good comics, which coincidentally happen to be the best thing there is when it comes to getting people to like comics.

But as fucking great as it was to have comics in places like grocery stores, and to have millions of people reading them, major comics publishers (read: Marvel) had a problem. They had to make good comics that people wanted to buy, or else they would be returned to them and Marvel wouldn't make much of a profit. And you can't pay for the cocaine budget of a young Rob Liefeld if you're constantly paying for returned comics.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

Technically the article argues for Diamond Distributors to die.

 

[The Technomancer]

Now, selling comics in grocery stores was fucking great, if your idea of fucking great is that lots of people end up reading comics. Having comics in places where things other than comics are sold is a remarkably effective way to clue people into the fact that comics are things that exist and which they might be interested in reading. I would venture to say it's the most effective way. More effective than massively popular superhero movies, more effective than hype campaigns on comic book websites, and more effective than shoving a million of them into the latest Loot Crate shipment.

Love it

 

[The Technomancer]

Stuff like this is a large part of when I do read "traditional" comics these days its almost always as anthology collections after the fact. Quite frankly I would rather spend $30 for a complete volume that I can have delivered to my door than $80 on its constituent pieces when I have to go into a specialty store every single time instead of just grabbing it while I'm out shopping.

The direct market did a great job of increasing Marvel's profits in the short term, because Marvel had decades worth of equity built up in terms of interest in comic books from people who were introduced to them at news stands, pharmacies, and grocery stores. But as the readership dwindled, with no pathway to bring in new readers, Marvel has had to continuously jack up the price of comics in order to continue to see profit growth from fewer sales. Those jacked up prices in turn make comics even less attractive to new readers and some of the existing ones, causing the readership to shrink further with no chance of growth. New opportunities to replicate the model of the grocery store, such as digital comics, are hampered by a desire not to undercut the direct market, so digital comics remain as prohibitively expensive as paper ones, but with a lot less of the charm.

 

[Dalek]

Cocaine budget? Yikes.

 

[Jintor]

i really want to see an in-depth report on the differences between the american comic market and the japanese manga market (with probably a side look at the korean/chinese webtoon portals and if they're experiencing any profitability at all). as well as side looks into the smaller pools - webcomics, the erotic stuff on both sides of the pond etc

 

[sleepykyo]

How is Archie Comics doing nowadays? I remember seeing the occasional Archie digest in the supermarket lines long after Marvel and DC comics weren't being carried in supermarkets.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

Cocaine budget? Yikes.

Artists like Rob Liefeld and Jim Lee got paid a shitload of money during 90's Marvel.

How is Archie Comics doing nowadays? I remember seeing the occasion digest in the supermarket lines long after Marvel and DC comics weren't being carried in supermarkets.

Doing a lot better ever since their relaunch. They're also attracting a lot more diverse readers than Marvel, DC, Image, and all other comics companies.

 

[gatti-man]

Love it

This was literally how I got into comics. Never would have gone to a comic book shop without first seeing them in a grocery store.

 

[Shaanyboi]

I buy digital, and for the most part, it's pretty much just trade collections. I'm not going to wait a month for a 20-30 page issue that I read in 10 minutes, and then am forced to wait another fucking month.

And I simply do not have the space to have all this shit pile up in my apartment. My girlfriend and I are already crammed living in an space that barely reaches 500 square ft. I have acouple collections that I think are important to me, but that's it. Any attempt to goad me to a comic store, despite one being down the street, is simply for nothing more than maybe a fun quick gift for a friend or something.

The onus is on the comic companies to adapt to the consumer and the changing landscape, not force and guilt the fanbase (and potential fanbase) to go along with whatever they come up with.

 

[Kuro]

Nowadays the only comics I read are from Image or indies. TPB only.

 

[Sojgat]

Uncle Fester looking blowhard motherfucker

lol

 

[Sandfox]

While the writer is correct about the can of worms that is Diamond and retail, the tone and solution offered is garbage. Comics are never going to have the visibility they had in the past, nor is it realistic to expect companies to wait for trade waiters before making a decision about books for various reasons. Of course it mentions issues people have with modern comics, like price, so it's going to be praised.

As someone that loved Nighthawk everything in that paragraph about the book is completely stupid. I also, don't see the point in attacking Bendis for telling people to preorder books they like when he's simply a writer.

 

[karobit]

This dude can't even keep up the farce of his premise thru to the end of the column.

• Comics are expensive because of the dwindling readership in the direct market
• But we can't get the newsstand or grocery stores back
• But they have to be cheaper
• Take that, Marvel!

Disregarding the fact that the general market doesn't allow for a breadth of new ideas -- no one was buying Cerebus or Love & Rockets at Kroger. Disregarding the fact that, though the column leads off as a mourning of Nighthawk, the rallying cry it ends on demands fresh new affordable ideas attractive to a wider audience, with no demands on marketing to that audience, which is allegedly what killed Nighthawk.Disregarding the author's complaints about Marvel's "half-hearted" attempts at diversity, while bemoaning that Marvel does nothing to bring in new readers, when those diverse comics are what bring in new readers. Those new readers, it seems, simply don't want to read about Nighthawk.

As a former angry child, this is an angry child wanting to be very mad and very coarse and recycle Billy Corgan jokes at Brian Michael Bendis, a man who is neither a marketing or publishing executive at Marvel.

i really want to see an in-depth report on the differences between the american comic market and the japanese manga market

Aside from every other societal and publishing difference, don't forget that the US is 26 times the size of Japan. Even if Batman sold as many copies as Weekly Shonen Jump (approx. 2.4m), they costs of distributing them over such a much larger area are daunting.

 

[excelsiorlef]

While the writer is correct about the can of worms that is Diamond and retail, the tone and solution offered is garbage. Comics are never going to have the visibility they had in the past, nor is it realistic to expect companies to wait for trade waiters before making a decision about books for various reasons. Of course it mentions issues people have with modern comics, like price, so it's going to be praised.

As someone that loved Nighthawk everything in that paragraph about the book is completely stupid. I also, don't see the point in attacking Bendis for telling people to preorder books they like when he's simply a writer.

Yeah why go after Bendis. He doesn't make the rules, he's part of the creative department not management.

 

[LiQuid!]

I could have written this article 5 years ago when I really cared more about the comic industry but I realize now it's too far gone to save. When the only place you can get a comic book is an insular nerd hive of an LCS the entire industry is doomed. Digital comics had a chance to expand the medium but they're too god damned expensive due to being shackled by the infrastructure of the physical product. I love comic books so much but it's such an exploitative mess of an industry.

 

[El Topo]

i really want to see an in-depth report on the differences between the american comic market and the japanese manga market (with probably a side look at the korean/chinese webtoon portals and if they're experiencing any profitability at all). as well as side looks into the smaller pools - webcomics, the erotic stuff on both sides of the pond etc

I'd love to know more about the European comic book market and how (American) comic books fare there, actually. It seems like that market is virtually irrelevant (for US publishers), unlike with other media.
Movies and TV shows in particular seem to have had great success expanding internationally.

 

[Biske]

As a comic lover... 99% of them are pure dog shit.

These days I only buy the comics I absolutely love.

God help you if you walk into a comic shop with no idea what you want.

 

[Jintor]

I could have written this article 5 years ago when I really cared more about the comic industry but I realize now it's too far gone to save. When the only place you can get a comic book is an insular nerd hive of an LCS the entire industry is doomed. Digital comics had a chance to expand the medium but they're too god damned expensive due to being shackled by the infrastructure of the physical product. I love comic books so much but it's such an exploitative mess of an industry.

i really want to read an update on how the translated manga scene is faring. Manga has scanlations which I don't think american comics has, at least not to the same extent. I don't think I've really read anything major since the Tokyopop implosion all those years ago

 

[Sandfox]

i really want to read an update on how the translated manga scene is faring. Manga has scanlations which I don't think american comics has, at least not to the same extent. I don't think I've really read anything major since the Tokyopop implosion all those years ago

Comics have the same issue in that regard. In terms of sales, I think manga went through a dip, but big new series have helped out a bit recently.

 

[BigDes]

I'd love to know more about the European comic book market and how (American) comic books fare there, actually. It seems like that market is virtually irrelevant (for US publishers), unlike with other media.
Movies and TV shows in particular seem to have had great success expanding internationally.

In the UK at least it seems to largely in competition with itself.

You have dedicated comic book stores which sell imported US comics and normally get them a day after release in the US. However, you also get US comics put together in an almost anthology format that are sold in local newsagents

So the US books would be Batman, Batman and Son, Justice League all sold separately and then the UK publishing arm of DC would publish those three as one book.

The problem is that these compilation books are often a year out of date. I believe for instance in the Uk published Marvel books, Secret War (2015) has only just started.

 

[ironmang]

How is Archie Comics doing nowadays? I remember seeing the occasional Archie digest in the supermarket lines long after Marvel and DC comics weren't being carried in supermarkets.

I don't know the sales numbers but last year they rebooted it to make it more modern and so far it's been pretty fantastic. Only 11 issues in so it's easy to get caught up.

As a comic lover... 99% of them are pure dog shit.

These days I only buy the comics I absolutely love.

God help you if you walk into a comic shop with no idea what you want.

I used to only read new comics with some old series thrown in. Lately though I've only been reading 7-8 monthly series while going back and checking out old runs that have universal acclaim. Feels so much better than picking up some random marvel or dc books that are churned out monthly whether or not the creative team is capable of delivering a quality product on such a schedule.

 

[Trojita]

People returned comics?

 

[firehawk12]

Who buys floppies in 2016?

Casual readers either buy trades or just go digital. Single issue sales is just for hardcore collectors at this point.

People returned comics?

Stores return unsold stock.

 

[Sgt. Kabukiman]

I've said this in many threads but I'm always saddened by the fact that american comics are such a niche thing in their country of origin. The direct market / Diamond is a really fucked up state of things. Considering I was raised in an incredibly small town, far away from everything, I would never have discovered comics as a kid if I could only buy them in a comic-book store. But you can buy comics pretty much everywhere in France and I'm thankful for that.

Still, from my limited perspective it looks like the industry has been doing better these last few years and the rise of digital comics is probably going to change things for the better.



And somewhere in a corner of the internet, John Byrne is still raging about trade paperbacks killing comics.

 

[firehawk12]

I've said this in many threads but I'm always saddened by the fact that american comics are such a niche thing in their country of origin. The direct market / Diamond is a really fucked up state of things. Considering I was raised in an incredibly small town, far away from everything, I would never have discovered comics as a kid if I could only buy them in a comic-book store. But you can buy comics pretty much everywhere in France and I'm thankful for that.

I mean, the reality is, who is going to pay 4-5 dollars for a 24/32 page comic other than 30-something collectors? I think for kids, they probably see more value in spending that money elsewhere.

 

[Trojita]

Stores return unsold stock.

Oh

 

[Sgt. Kabukiman]

I'd love to know more about the European comic book market and how (American) comic books fare there, actually. It seems like that market is virtually irrelevant (for US publishers), unlike with other media.
Movies and TV shows in particular seem to have had great success expanding internationally.

That's a really complex problem as there isn't really a unified european comic book market for many reasons, the biggest being the different languages. I can only speak for France and this is only based on my memories but american comics used to be a distant third in the market, far behind franco-belgian comics and mangas. Still, back in the 80s, a magazine like Strange (which featured Spider-Man, Iron Man and other Marvel heroes) used to sell 100.000 copies per month. Considering the size of France, that's pretty considerable.

In the 90s and early 00s it was clearly a struggle and only Marvel managed to survive. But now, DC actually has a pretty healthy presence and their books, as well as stuff like The Walking Dead, are regularly on the best-sellers list of comic-books on Amazon.fr. The movies and TV shows have actually helped quite a bit. Again, this is just anecdotal but I think american comics have been getting bigger and bigger over here. You can find Marvel books on sale next to the cashier in most supermarkets.

I mean, the reality is, who is going to pay 4-5 dollars for a 24/32 page comic other than 30-something collectors? I think for kids, they probably see more value in spending that money elsewhere.

Yeah, I was considering buying the first issue of Civil War 2 a few weeks back since I haven't read anything from Marvel in a while but when I saw that it was more than 5 euros for 30 pages or so, I just shook my head. What a terrible value. But stuff like Marvel Unlimited and digital comics (there are often sales) in general could really help, kids just need to be made aware of those apps.

 

[Tobor]

I mean, the reality is, who is going to pay 4-5 dollars for a 24/32 page comic other than 30-something collectors? I think for kids, they probably see more value in spending that money elsewhere.

Yeah, but they're only $4-5 because the only market left is 30- something collectors.

They had to increase the quality of the paper and the ink years ago to satisfy collectors, and now it's impossible to sell at a price a kid in the grocery store could get his mom to pay.

 

[firehawk12]

Yeah, but they're only $4-5 because the only market left is 30- something collectors.

They had to increase the quality of the paper and the ink years ago to satisfy collectors, and now it's impossible to sell at a price a kid in the grocery store could get his mom to pay.

Yeah, my solution 10 years ago would be to return to newsprint and the old simple coloring for physical and sell those for a buck. They could have "premium" versions that they can still sell to the collectors.
But honestly with digital and trades, there's absolutely no point. Even comic book stores are selling digital copies via referral codes now.

 

[Deft Beck]

I honestly only really buy independent comics directly from the creators when attending conventions at this point. Most mainstream stuff is about the same subjects. Indie scene is where it's at.

 

[Frustrated_Grunt]

I only buy digital comics on sale now. $4.50 for a new floppy I would just bag and forget after half an hour was not worth it. Other industries have always been able to provide more bang for your buck, so comics will not be able to escape the niche it's trapped in unless a major shift happens.

 

[deadscreensky]

I agree with this editorial 100%. Lots of people (including myself) only got into comics because they were a mass market product available everywhere and reasonably cheaply. Stepping away from that to only focus on the more profitable but inevitably shrinking dedicated audience was the height of stupidity.

The article gets into this a lot, but just think about the real numbers here: in 2016 we're looking at maybe 100,000 comic book readers in the US. That's it, that's the entire market for this art form. How insane is that? Imagine if video games, music, novels, or movies had that little reach. And you can put the blame entirely on the management decisions from Marvel and DC. They killed the market.

 

[WillyFive]

Comics need to be significantly cheaper (like a dollar or less) and sold in as many places as possible. Make the paper black and white, small, and super cheap if necessary. They should be on the check out aisle at a store so that kids can grab them.

 

[Iceternal]

I agree with this editorial 100%. Lots of people (including myself) only got into comics because they were a mass market product available everywhere and reasonably cheaply. Stepping away from that to only focus on the more profitable but inevitably shrinking dedicated audience was the height of stupidity.

The article gets into this a lot, but just think about the real numbers here: in 2016 we're looking at maybe 100,000 comic book readers in the US. That's it, that's the entire market for this art form. How insane is that? Imagine if video games, music, novels, or movies had that little reach. And you can put the blame entirely on the management decisions from Marvel and DC. They killed the market.

This and all the retcons/ continuity bullshit.

It's gotten impossible to follow the storylines without getting a headache. Compare this to mangas, which are as straightforward as it gets.

 

[Wolfgunblood Garopa]

Marvel should try a line (maybe a dozen different titles) with shitty paper and coloring, sell those books for $1.99. I don't buy comics because of the price, and the impact of the nice paper and coloring isn't really there anymore.

 

[duckroll]

I don't think there's much hope for comics at retail. There's just too many of them to stock regularly for non-specialist stores, and even if they were cheaper, there would still be a barrier of entry simply because the mainstream stuff is filled with ongoing storylines and the indie stuff lacks awareness.

The future of comics is digital, and the sooner publishers capitalize on that by abandoning the retail mindset, the better. Image does a pretty great job of it as it is. Very customer friendly system, no DRM, good sales regularly. What Marvel and DC need to do is to offer a reverse of Marvel Unlimited. Instead of just a subscription for back catalog, there should be a subscription package for new stuff, create audiences for current titles this way, and encourage hardcore fans to buy trades and hardcovers down the road for collection purposes. Offer discounts on pre-orders of trades and hardcovers for ongoing subscribers.

Marvel should try a line (maybe a dozen different titles) with shitty paper and coloring, sell those books for $1.99. I don't buy comics because of the price, and the impact of the nice paper and coloring isn't really there anymore.

2 bucks is a lot to pay for newspaper quality comics... that sounds even more expensive than paying 5 bucks for what we have now.

 

[Wolfgunblood Garopa]

2 bucks is a lot to pay for newspaper quality comics... that sounds even more expensive than paying 5 bucks for what we have now.

It would be a lot to ask to go back to $1.00.

 

[Risible]

I started buying comics around 1970 or so and really love them. I've got thousands of floppies. I stopped collecting many decades ago because the price just got simply outrageous.

When they were a quarter a pop it was easy to justify. As it got into the multiple dollars per though the value proposition dropped tremendously and I couldn't take a chance on unknown stuff any more.

I've seen the price increase 20-fold over three decades. I'm not saying it's the fault of the industry as EVERYTHING has inflated badly in price. Regardless of the reason they are just waaaaay too expensive nowadays.

If this is how I feel, a nostalgic 50 year old that grew up when comics were ubiquitous, imagine how kids today must feel about comics. I sadly don't see a big future for comics.

 

[Vyer]

The storylines aren't the problem. Superhero comics have always been a combination of ongoing stories with a few hooks to catch new readers up. It's not really as hard to jump in as some people like to make it.

Article is exactly correct in how the distribution method has essentially killed a lot of the medium. Forced prices to go up and killed new reader access and availability. Bad combination.

 

[duckroll]

It would be a lot to ask to go back to $1.00.

That's why the push to digital is the only real answer. Print for monthly <30 page full color comics is a doomed industry.

 

[LordOfLore]

It would be a lot to ask to go back to $1.00.

2 bucks is a lot to pay for newspaper quality comics... that sounds even more expensive than paying 5 bucks for what we have now.

DC's new Rebirth books are all $2.99 and it has really helped sales(along with left over books being returnable to DC).

On the other hand Marvel books like Captain Marvel are getting bumped to a $4.99 price point due to CWII despite sales being quite lacking.

The next Marvel relaunch hits soon with a new round of #1's with a high price. Will be interesting to see if they'll stay that way or drop.

 

[Aaronrules380]

i really want to read an update on how the translated manga scene is faring. Manga has scanlations which I don't think american comics has, at least not to the same extent. I don't think I've really read anything major since the Tokyopop implosion all those years ago

Probably better for a number of reasons, including the fact that the burden of sales for a localized manga is less so than for a comic, since the manga industry in Japan is super healthy. This means that the success of a series in the west doesn't need to be as high, since whether a series continues is determined by the healthy Japanese market. Additionally, it means the burden on any foreign manga market is just generally lower since it's more of a supplement to the Japanese market than the main market in and of itself. In general, the costs involved to bring manga to the US are just lower than to create a new comic from scratch.
I also think that anime helps manga sales in a way that is far more potent than movies and comics, despite many more people watching the movies. This is because anime and manga usually share the same story and events, so going to the manga to see ahead, or finish a story that might never get another season is far more attractive to a viewer than reading a comic that is only tangentially related to the movie you just watched

 

[Guevara]

I mean, the reality is, who is going to pay 4-5 dollars for a 24/32 page comic other than 30-something collectors? I think for kids, they probably see more value in spending that money elsewhere.

This is my problem in a nutshell. I'm definitely not buying a bunch of short issues, For $4-5 a pop, over many weeks, hoping it ends up well.

I'm only buying collected issues when the series is done, which is well-after the serious fans care.

 

[old manatee]

I wouldn't be surprised if comics were secondary to Marvel at this point. A way to crowd source story boards for movies that will make billions.

 

[Ogodei]

I think they're going just the right direction with it, except that maybe they should try marketing their youth line to children a little more directly (have a comics section at the end of the action figure row at Target/Wal-Mart) to help rope in the younger audience. The core premise now is that they're a legacy product but also an idea factory where they can spin new stories and learn what works and what doesn't without having to spend hundreds of millions on a feature film of an untested plot-line.

 

[Aaronrules380]

I mean, the reality is, who is going to pay 4-5 dollars for a 24/32 page comic other than 30-something collectors? I think for kids, they probably see more value in spending that money elsewhere.

Is that really the price they ask for comics? That's insane. I mean, in comparison viz lists a single volume of manga with well over 200 pages at around $10-$12 physical and around $6-$8 digital depending on the series, and you can usually easily find them for less even when they're very new

and if I want to follow a Shonen Jump series as it's ongoing, I can subscribe to their digital magazine and get over 200 pages of content a week for a $26 yearly (Less than 55 cents an issue)

And that's not even considering that they have a good amount of free chapters of certain series available on their website even for nonsubscribers (though granted these do expire over time).

 

[duckroll]

I wouldn't be surprised if comics were secondary to Marvel at this point. A way to crowd source story boards for movies that will make billions.

Considering their not the same companies and each company has their own agendas and executives looking to make themselves look valuable, I highly doubt so. Marvel Studio films making billions is good news for Marvel Studio executives and Disney executives. But it means jack shit to Perlmutter and the editors at Marvel Entertainment, which is the "Marvel" we talk about when we talk about comics. Comics are definitely secondary to Disney's interest in Marvel though.

Is that really the price they ask for comics? That's insane. I mean, in comparison viz lists a single volume of manga with well over 200 pages at around $10-$12 physical and around $6-$8 digital depending on the series, and you can usually easily find them for less even when they're very new

and if I want to follow a Shonen Jump series as it's ongoing, I can subscribe to their digital magazine and get over 200 pages of content a week for a $26 yearly (Less than 55 cents an issue)

Is that really the price they ask for manga in the US? That's insane. I mean, in comparison, a single volume of manga in Japan with well over 200 pages is around $3-$4 physical.

 

[Aaronrules380]

Considering their not the same companies and each company has their own agendas and executives looking to make themselves look valuable, I highly doubt so. Marvel Studio films making billions is good news for Marvel Studio executives and Disney executives. But it means jack shit to Perlmutter and the editors at Marvel Entertainment, which is the "Marvel" we talk about when we talk about comics. Comics are definitely secondary to Disney's interest in Marvel though.



Is that really the price they ask for manga in the US? That's insane. I mean, in comparison, a single volume of manga in Japan with well over 200 pages is around $3-$4 physical.

I don't see the point of that counterexample. Distribution in the US is obviously more expensive, and the market for manga is just much smaller than in Japan, plus licensing and translation costs still exist. Comics should by all means have an advantage in the US. The main advantage manga in the US inherently has over comics in terms of price is no color.

 

[BattleMonkey]

Most grocery and pharmacy book/magazine sections have shrunk by a huge amount, print media is dying off, comics are not going to get much exposure at all anymore in such places.

Back when comics were in these common places, stuff like the internet was not that prevalent, now comics have new ways to reach the masses and characters have far better chances of exposure to folks.

Digital comics is great as it helps keep people from having to go to some shitty local comic shop.

The biggest deterrent to comics, is the comics themselves. They make it so difficult for new readers to jump in with how convoluted they have become with constantly starting up new series, reboots, etc.