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[Dandy Lyin]

Who buys floppies in 2016?

Casual readers either buy trades or just go digital. Single issue sales is just for hardcore collectors at this point.

I've only started buying comics in the last 1.5 years or so... And I'm ready to go back to buying all digital/TPB at this point. I have 2 short boxes full of comics, and a fairly small apartment... I'm just not willing to sacrifice space for them all.

When I first started reading it was 99% digital, with the occasional trade... I only started buying floppies because people made me feel like trade waiting/digital were hurting the industry and I wanted to make the effort to support an industry I was growing to love.

I'm thinking I might prune my 18-25 issues a month down to 4-6 that I really love and want to support, and then buy the rest digital.

 

[BossLackey]

As an avid reader and collector, it does seem that there is no such thing as a casual comic book consumer anymore. I talk to my LCS proprietor all the time, and she's constantly getting shafted by Diamond. It's a real shame.

 

[bengraven]

I was just thinking about this the other day.

Our local pharmacy, in my small city of 10,000, was a comic book mecca for the time. At least 50-60 titles, all on four long shelves. The local grocery store's magazine rack had an entire five foot row with another dozen or two titles (I picked up my first comics ever there: a New Warriors, Spiderman, and X-men 2nd series #20). Another pharmacy had at least seven or eight titles, years before it had a spinner rack loaded with them (got my X-men #25 there, Gambit and Rogue in the 90s ftw). Even gas stations would have a few titles - maybe they were just Archie or some random titles but at least they were there - I got the first issue of Archie's TMNT run at a gas station.

It was a way that even casual readers could just grab one or more on their way out the door.

In my hometown now, where in the early 90s at least six places off the top of my head had comics, there are literally zero ways of getting them outside of digital or Amazon. Maybe Walmart has a TPB or two, but it's likely a YA aimed series.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

Reboots and relaunches aren't a huge problem since Image has comics that sell around the same number, if not a little worse, than Marvel and DC, and Image puts out creative owned books that have a beginning and an end.

 

[patapuf]

Reboots and relaunches aren't a huge problem since Image has comics that sell around the same number, if not a little worse, than Marvel and DC, and Image puts out creative owned books that have a beginning and an end.

Aren't Marvel and DC helped by the fact that theres like 3 blockbusters each every year, TV series, and with that a gigantic amount of marketing for the properties?

Edit: i guess one could argue that these blockbusters are the new "cheap comics form the newsstand" that is accessible to everyone.

 

[jmdajr]

I haven't bought comics in awhile. But when I looked prices were fucking bonkers.

 

[Mr. Poolman]

I find curioous how different the european and north american markets are.

Singles are full of publicity and take such a small time to read that I find them as an unwise buy. I prefer my stories collected and completed on a single volume.

Also, alternative covers and gimmicks do nothing for me.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

Aren't Marvel and DC helped by the fact that theres like 3 blockbusters each every year, TV series, and with that a gigantic amount of marketing for the properties?

Edit: i guess one could argue that these blockbusters are the new "cheap comics form the newsstand" that is accessible to everyone.

They get a sales boost for like a month and it slowly goes down.

I find curioous how different the european and north american markets are.

Singles are full of publicity and take such a small time to read that I find them as an unwise buy. I prefer my stories collected and completed on a single volume.

Also, alternative covers and gimmicks do nothing for me.

Variant covers unfortunately keep Marvel and DC afloat. Mostly Marvel. There are more Star Wars variants than the number of issues in the stories.

 

[Sectorseven]

When I go to the comic store I usually just buy back issues in the .50-1.50 range. They might not be the greatest or rarest issues, but I can walk out with a bunch of comics without spending much. Plus, it's fun to look through all the issues.

 

[Kaervas]

Comics need more stand alone quality stuff. Who wants to read 10 issues of 3 different comics to follow one simple plot?

More stuff like killing joke and watchmen, less amazingdude #334

 

[The Technomancer]

I agree with this editorial 100%. Lots of people (including myself) only got into comics because they were a mass market product available everywhere and reasonably cheaply. Stepping away from that to only focus on the more profitable but inevitably shrinking dedicated audience was the height of stupidity.

The article gets into this a lot, but just think about the real numbers here: in 2016 we're looking at maybe 100,000 comic book readers in the US. That's it, that's the entire market for this art form. How insane is that? Imagine if video games, music, novels, or movies had that little reach. And you can put the blame entirely on the management decisions from Marvel and DC. They killed the market.

I wouldn't say its as little as 100,000 (not everyone buys every title obviously) but I bet its less than a million

 

[Mr. Poolman]

Is the direct market so small that Lootcrate shipments actually affect the sales figures?

Damn... comics are in a dire position.

 

[DeathoftheEndless]

Comics need more stand alone quality stuff. Who wants to read 10 issues of 3 different comics to follow one simple plot?

More stuff like killing joke and watchmen, less amazingdude #334

Watchmen was a 12-issue series.

 

[Kaervas]

Watchmen was a 12-issue series.

Really? Learn something new every day.

 

[Mr. Poolman]

Really? Learn something new every day.

And it shipped late.

 

[mjc]

The industry has done the exact opposite of what they should have been doing, and it's probably too late in some regards. Peddling strictly to comic shops, increased pricing, being dragged kicking and screaming into the digital age, etc.

I used to buy comics weekly for a good five or six years, I get nauseous thinking about all the money I wasted. I have a Marvel Unlimited sub now and I've never been happier.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

Really? Learn something new every day.

And new comic readers want less stuff like The Killing Joke and Watchmen and more light-hearted books like Squirrel Girl.

Is the direct market so small that Lootcrate shipments actually affect the sales figures?

Damn... comics are in a dire position.

Loot Crate does effect comic sales. When a comic gets featured in Loot Crate it's automatically gonna be the #1 best selling comic for that month by around 300 - 500K.

 

[BattleMonkey]

Comics need more stand alone quality stuff. Who wants to read 10 issues of 3 different comics to follow one simple plot?

More stuff like killing joke and watchmen, less amazingdude #334

Pretty much, comics have become so convoluted and sloppy. Series change hands more often than ever, new writer team comes along, they go and change everything, the amount of huge event series is getting stupid, way too much cross over storylines, and renumbering. It's all really confusing for a new reader.

Things used to be simpler, a book for the most part stayed on it's own path, and was simply numbered. Now you have books restarting every year it feels like, with stories that are not easy to follow as they constantly are being tied into some big event or other books that cause newbies to get lost.

 

[Messi]

Comics need to be significantly cheaper (like a dollar or less) and sold in as many places as possible. Make the paper black and white, small, and super cheap if necessary. They should be on the check out aisle at a store so that kids can grab them.

Yes let's destroy half the craft and what makes comics what they are.

 

[Hopeford]

Gonna be honest, my main reason for not buying comics is less price and more that it just seems...daunting. Like to me it seems like a huge time investment to actually be able to understand what's going on in any given Marvel/DC series and it feels very difficult to care about what's going on given retcons and stuff like that. Like even if something tragic happens, part of me can't help but think "...Whatever, this will be retconned/rebooted/have an alternative universe where this didn't happen."

Like I know those issues are on me instead of the industry, but yeah I just can't get into comics because of it. I tried. Just not my thing.

 

[ironmang]

The industry has done the exact opposite of what they should have been doing, and it's probably too late in some regards. Peddling strictly to comic shops, increased pricing, being dragged kicking and screaming into the digital age, etc.

I used to buy comics weekly for a good five or six years, I get nauseous thinking about all the money I wasted. I have a Marvel Unlimited sub now and I've never been happier.

Despite the program being horrible and only being able to download 10 comics at a time, Marvel Unlimited has definitely been a game changer for me. Imagine if they wanted to make it better what they could achieve. Like a tiered subscription where you get what they offer now plus some new comics depending on how much you pay. Or something like PS Plus where you get gifted a few bonus new comics per month while you're subscribed.

Pretty much, comics have become so convoluted and sloppy. Series change hands more often than ever, new writer team comes along, they go and change everything, the amount of huge event series is getting stupid, way too much cross over storylines, and renumbering. It's all really confusing for a new reader.

Things used to be simpler, a book for the most part stayed on it's own path, and was simply numbered. Now you have books restarting every year it feels like, with stories that are not easy to follow as they constantly are being tied into some big event or other books that cause newbies to get lost.

I remember one of the most absurd things I witnessed was how right when The Dark Knight released the main comic arc was Batman RIP which not only didn't feel welcoming based on plot but also wasn't a very easy read. I remember a few friends who casually read comics couldn't tell wtf was going on in the few issues they tried reading and ultimately gave up lol.

 

[Jeronimo Jones]

Publishers' hesitation on digital subs hurt them in the long run. I never bought comics before I discovered Marvel Unlimited. The sub covers so many characters and story arcs I missed out on and since finding it I've bought hardcover collections, single books on digital, and even a couple paper copies I plan to display.

I've even found different publishers with interesting content like Saga from Image Comics.

 

[Gipsy Danger]

I remember one of the most absurd things I witnessed was how right when The Dark Knight released the main comic arc was Batman RIP which not only didn't feel welcoming based on plot but also wasn't a very easy read. I remember a few friends who casually read comics couldn't tell wtf was going on in the few issues they tried reading and ultimately gave up lol.

You're not wrong but Batman RIP is still one of the best Batman stories ever written so sometimes it's worth the tradeoff.

I agree that comics can be confusing at times but they aren't nearly as bad as people make them out to be and it's one of the best things about the medium. I only started reading weekly books around 4 years ago and it's pretty much my favourite hobby at this point.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

I remember one of the most absurd things I witnessed was how right when The Dark Knight released the main comic arc was Batman RIP which not only didn't feel welcoming based on plot but also wasn't a very easy read. I remember a few friends who casually read comics couldn't tell wtf was going on in the few issues they tried reading and ultimately gave up lol.

Important lesson: Never jump into a Grant Morrison book without doing extensive research. All-Star Superman and Wonder Woman Earth One are like the few exceptions.

 

[MC Safety]

Gonna be honest, my main reason for not buying comics is less price and more that it just seems...daunting. Like to me it seems like a huge time investment to actually be able to understand what's going on in any given Marvel/DC series and it feels very difficult to care about what's going on given retcons and stuff like that. Like even if something tragic happens, part of me can't help but think "...Whatever, this will be retconned/rebooted/have an alternative universe where this didn't happen."

Like I know those issues are on me instead of the industry, but yeah I just can't get into comics because of it. I tried. Just not my thing.

The issues you mentioned are not just on you. A lot of the steps the comic book industry takes to this day were inaugurated during boom times. Now that the market has settled (and shrunk), the industry hasn't adjusted.

Some of it is just bad storytelling. But a lot of what you've experienced is wholly planned and has been in effect for years if not decades.

 

[ElNarez]

Any time I read "comics should be way cheaper/follow a subscription model/whatever the fuck else", I think about how little most creators in Big Corporate Comics are paid.

Like, I honestly think $2.99 is the bare minimum of what a comic can cost if you want to make sure the people making it can make a decent living. You can't really go below that.

The real problem is the current model of comics distribution, and the only way that's gonna improve is if someone or something burns Diamond to the ground.

PS: I'm not gonna get into the "it's so hard to get into" argument because you can't walk around the internet without being hit by a dozen fucking recaps of every single cultural product out there, which, combined with the fact you can just fucking dive in, and pick up what's important in the story as it is brought up in the story, means it's just a terrible excuse

 

[KingV]

This was literally how I got into comics. Never would have gone to a comic book shop without first seeing them in a grocery store.

Me too, I used to.get my parents to buy them for me at 7-11. I remember when Carnage was introduced and checking every week for the new issue of ASM so I didn't miss any of that story.

 

[Mindwipe]

Is the direct market so small that Lootcrate shipments actually affect the sales figures?

Damn... comics are in a dire position.

Of course it does. Heck, print newspapers are so small that the free copies they give to hotel lobbies materially affect their circulation for advertising purposes.

 

[Sectorseven]

How much does the price drop on a new comic after a month? Like, say this month's new Batman just came out. How much would last month's issue be worth now for the comic shop to buy back and what would they resell it for?

I guess what I'm getting at is there needs to be a trade in program like Gamestop, if there isn't already. Gives existing readers some incentive to buy the newest issue and lowers the barrier to entry for new readers.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

How much does the price drop on a new comic after a month? Like, say this month's new Batman just came out. How much would last month's issue be worth now for the comic shop to buy back and what would they resell it for?

I guess what I'm getting at is there needs to be a trade in program like Gamestop, if there isn't already. Gives existing readers some incentive to buy the newest issue and lowers the barrier to entry for new readers.

Very few comics have value thanks to the 90s crash. You'll be lucky to get a $1 for a recent comic. Only some gold, silver, and bronze age comics have value.

 

[AlteredBeast]

The, Industry, The? Doesn't sound so threatening...

 

[Sectorseven]

Very few comics have value thanks to the 90s crash. You'll be lucky to get a $1 for a recent comic. Only some gold, silver, and bronze age comics have value.

That's not terrible though. Someone can read the latest issue for $3 and get a dollar back afterwards, the retailer can resell it for $2 and make $1 profit, and I can read last month's issue for $2 and maybe get 50 cents back on a trade in.

 

[LosDaddie]

There's such a bubble with variants right now. Like, I wouldn't be surprised if there are more variants now than back in the 90s. I follow a few comic pages on Instagram, and people go apeshit over variants. I saw some dude trying to sell a graded Venom variant for $2k.

Who is paying for that shit?

But maybe I'm part of the problem. I don't buy floppies at all. I only buy omnibi and hardcovers. I just bought the Deadpool minibus and Batman/TMNT hardcover yesterday.

 

[MANUELF]

There is absolutely no reason to buy a individual comic if after a while you Get a edition with all of them in one for cheaper and a hardcover option

 

[Rumblebones]

Perhaps DC and Marvel comics would do better in terms of drawing in larger audiences if they had their respective "origin universes" wherein the definitive origins, beginnings and stories of heroes were established, and from which point newer fans could jump into the prime universes with a greater understanding of the characters.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

Perhaps DC and Marvel comics would do better in terms of drawing in larger audiences if they had their respective "origin universes" wherein the definitive origins, beginnings and stories of heroes were established, and from which point newer fans could jump into the prime universes with a greater understanding of the characters.

For DC it's called Earth One and for Marvel they had the Ultimate Universe before that went to shit.

 

[Coffee Dog]

Perhaps DC and Marvel comics would do better in terms of drawing in larger audiences if they had their respective "origin universes" wherein the definitive origins, beginnings and stories of heroes were established, and from which point newer fans could jump into the prime universes with a greater understanding of the characters.

Marvel tried this with Ultimate. What happened was that even though this worked initially for a few series (Ultimate Spidey being the big one) eventually after a few years, surprise surprise, the Ultimate books became weighed down in continuity and poor creative choices just like the main universe does.

 

[BattleMonkey]

You're not wrong but Batman RIP is still one of the best Batman stories ever written so sometimes it's worth the tradeoff.

I agree that comics can be confusing at times but they aren't nearly as bad as people make them out to be and it's one of the best things about the medium. I only started reading weekly books around 4 years ago and it's pretty much my favourite hobby at this point.

Most casual reader, is not going to invest huge amount of time to get into a series. They pick up a book or two, feel overwhelmed, they will walk away

Important lesson: Never jump into a Grant Morrison book without doing extensive research. All-Star Superman and Wonder Woman Earth One are like the few exceptions.

Yea and that's not going to do any good to help sell books for new comic readers. Research isn't going to help them much either at going "oh that makes sense....." "now where do I go?"

For DC it's called Earth One and for Marvel they had the Ultimate Universe before that went to shit.

Because they became what we already have in the "mainline" series.

Back in the day, you could just pick up a book off the rack, and read it and you quickly could get up to speed. If your in middle of story, you simply find previous issue or two, and you typically were all caught up.

Now you pick up a book, it feels like you have to wiki and dig up several trades of books, often from multiple series unrelated to the book your reading too.

 

[Mindwipe]

Comics need more stand alone quality stuff. Who wants to read 10 issues of 3 different comics to follow one simple plot?

More stuff like killing joke and watchmen, less amazingdude #334

We have more of those books than ever before - there's an absolute barrage of amazing Image books that are totally standalone titles, and even DC/Marvel have a fair amount of reasonably self contained runs.

 

[Aegus]

I'm of the opinion that a lot of the troubles are due to not having the balls to actually end things.

Say what you want about the manga market but they have a fairly fast turnaround on titles all things considered.

 

[Gipsy Danger]

Most casual reader, is not going to invest huge amount of time to get into a series. They pick up a book or two, feel overwhelmed, they will walk away

So then do a little bit of research and discover that maybe that specific arc is not the best idea for a new reader? New reader's should generally just start off with TPBs because they are whole stories in one package. It's insane to just pick up a book without any prior research just like it would be weird to pick up Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire without any prior research.

Besides casual readers don't buy floppies in the first place, they buy trades.

Back in the day, you could just pick up a book off the rack, and read it and you quickly could get up to speed. If your in middle of story, you simply find previous issue or two, and you typically were all caught up.

Now you pick up a book, it feels like you have to wiki and dig up several trades of books, often from multiple series unrelated to the book your reading too.

What day was that? This is mostly untrue. Reading anything from the bronze age on is pretty much the same amount of confusing.

 

[BattleMonkey]

We have more of those books than ever before - there's an absolute barrage of amazing Image books that are totally standalone titles, and even DC/Marvel have a fair amount of reasonably self contained runs.

Which average buyer has to go to a comic book store and find, and is assaulted by giant walls of books with no idea where to start.

And when they go into a comic store, they will usually be told or asked what character they want to read about, which is usually a mainstream character, whose books are all stuck in convoluted continuity hell already. While fresh original books and stand alones are neglected

 

[Gipsy Danger]

Which average buyer has to go to a comic book store and find, and is assaulted by giant walls of books with no idea where to start.

And when they go into a comic store, they will usually be told or asked what character they want to read about, which is usually a mainstream character, whose books are all stuck in convoluted continuity hell already. While fresh original books and stand alones are neglected

You could say the exact same thing about video games, novels, music or any other entertainment product.

When I used to go to comic shops before I went digital people were usually really helpful and would recommend me both cape books and indie books. That was even before Image were knocking it out of the park.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

Most casual reader, is not going to invest huge amount of time to get into a series. They pick up a book or two, feel overwhelmed, they will walk away



Yea and that's not going to do any good to help sell books for new comic readers. Research isn't going to help them much either at going "oh that makes sense....." "now where do I go?"



Because they became what we already have in the "mainline" series.

Back in the day, you could just pick up a book off the rack, and read it and you quickly could get up to speed. If your in middle of story, you simply find previous issue or two, and you typically were all caught up.

Now you pick up a book, it feels like you have to wiki and dig up several trades of books, often from multiple series unrelated to the book your reading too.

It's not hard to do a little info digging to get caught up on a book and even then you don't really need to do that, you just read and everything will catch up with you. That's pretty much what I did. Comics now are way easier to get into than say 20 years ago.

I'm of the opinion that a lot of the troubles are due to not having the balls to actually end things.

Say what you want about the manga market but they have a fairly fast turnaround on titles all things considered.

The majority of manga is also creator owned. Your asking characters that are owned by multi-million dollar companies to stop making new stories and stop making money.

 

[BattleMonkey]

So then do a little bit of research and discover that maybe that specific arc is not the best idea for a new reader? New reader's should generally just start off with TPBs because they are whole stories in one package. It's insane to just pick up a book without any prior research just like it would be weird to pick up Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire without any prior research.

Besides casual readers don't buy floppies in the first place, they buy trades.

And that isn't working, hence the problem.

What day was that? This is mostly untrue. Reading anything from the bronze age on is pretty much the same amount of confusing.

The 80's and 90's, things were FAR simpler in comics. The books were not constantly assaulted with the need of having huge comic book events every few months and year, series shake ups, renumbering, rebooting staffs and direction after a handful of issues.

 

[Primethius]

Most casual reader, is not going to invest huge amount of time to get into a series. They pick up a book or two, feel overwhelmed, they will walk away



Yea and that's not going to do any good to help sell books for new comic readers. Research isn't going to help them much either at going "oh that makes sense....." "now where do I go?"



Because they became what we already have in the "mainline" series.

Back in the day, you could just pick up a book off the rack, and read it and you quickly could get up to speed. If your in middle of story, you simply find previous issue or two, and you typically were all caught up.

Now you pick up a book, it feels like you have to wiki and dig up several trades of books, often from multiple series unrelated to the book your reading too.

That last part isn't really true. I say that as someone whose been jumping into new stuff all this year without trouble.

Wiking stuff is such a bad habit.

 

[daegan]

Aside from every other societal and publishing difference, don't forget that the US is 26 times the size of Japan. Even if Batman sold as many copies as Weekly Shonen Jump (approx. 2.4m), they costs of distributing them over such a much larger area are daunting.

The truly remarkable comparison is to the US manga market though, which has weathered its own collapse, has to cope with a fan culture that virulently defends piracy, has higher sticker prices, has more unwieldy books, and yet continues to embarrass homegrown comics in terms of circulation and readership.

 

[Bizazedo]

I want to read comics, but I can't get into buying one comic that's like, what, 20 some pages, that ends in a to be continued.

 

[Gipsy Danger]

And that isn't working, hence the problem.

That isn't really the problem. Image have nothing but creator owned self-contained books and they're selling similar numbers.

The 80's and 90's, things were FAR simpler in comics. The books were not constantly assaulted with the need of having huge comic book events every few months and year, series shake ups, renumbering, rebooting staffs and direction after a handful of issues.

Not true. 80s and 90s absolutely had the same bullshit that comics have now.

I want to read comics, but I can't get into buying one comic that's like, what, 20 some pages, that ends in a to be continued.

Just buy trade paperbacks. They collect 4 or more issues into one package which is a self-contained story most of the time.

 

[Ross61]

Which average buyer has to go to a comic book store and find, and is assaulted by giant walls of books with no idea where to start.

And when they go into a comic store, they will usually be told or asked what character they want to read about, which is usually a mainstream character, whose books are all stuck in convoluted continuity hell already. While fresh original books and stand alones are neglected

If they're interested in indie books, Shouldn't they ask form a recommendation?