Support NeoGAF

[appaws]

I used to manage the biggest comic shop in the Chicago area for a few years, although I must admit I have been completely out of touch for a while now.

It always struck me that superheroes were the problem. It's just too niche of an audience, all 35 year old men with nostalgia and getting older all the time. It always felt impossible to get other people into the store. Some women and younger kids came in to look at Manga or Pokemon or some indy books....and never gave superhero books a glance. They would never go from DBZ or Optic Nerve to "mainstream" books....and we didn't have enough diversity of product to offer to them.

It struck me as so weird that the industry in America developed that way, with such a vast majority of stories being "costumed crime fighting" stories. No other entertainment media is that focused on such a narrow type of story. Comics in other countries, like the obvious reference japan, have all types of stories to appeal to all types of people. Ours appeal to 60s,70s,80s men and thats about it.

But Marvel/DC have to keep it that way to avoid alienating those remaining fans who are the only (shrinking) cash cow they have left.

 

[LordOfLore]

And that isn't working, hence the problem.



The 80's and 90's, things were FAR simpler in comics. The books were not constantly assaulted with the need of having huge comic book events every few months and year, series shake ups, renumbering, rebooting staffs and direction after a handful of issues.

Events and crossovers in the 90's:

Marvel

X-Tinction Agenda
The Infinity Gauntlet
Operation: Galactic Storm
Rise of the Midnight Sons
Revenge of the Sinister Six
Infinity War
X-Cutioner's Song
Infinity Crusade
Maximum Carnage
Bloodties
Mys-Tech Wars
Child's Play
Phalanx Covenant
Clone Saga
Legion Quest
Age of Apocalypse
DC vs Marvel
Onslaught Saga
Heroes Reborn
Operation: Zero Tolerance
Heroes Return
The Hunt for Xavier
The Magneto War

DC

Armageddon 2001
War of the Gods
Eclipso: The Darkness Within
Superman: Panic in the Sky
The Death of Superman/Funeral for a Friend/Reign of the Supermen!
Trinity
Knightfall
Bloodlines
Justice League: Breakdowns
Worlds Collide
Zero Hour
The Way of the Warrior
Underworld Unleashed
The Final Night
Batman: Contagion
Batman: Legacy
Genesis
DC One Million
Batman: Cataclysm
Superman: Behold! The Millennium Giants!
Day of Judgment
JLApe: Gorilla Warfare!
Batman: No Man's Land

 

[Roland_Gunner]

And that isn't working, hence the problem.


The 80's and 90's, things were FAR simpler in comics. The books were not constantly assaulted with the need of having huge comic book events every few months and year, series shake ups, renumbering, rebooting staffs and direction after a handful of issues.

The 90's were filled with cross-overs and fill ins. The only thing they didn't have was the line-wide reboots that are popular now.

 

[Gipsy Danger]

Events and crossovers in the 90's:

I never understand the thinking that comics were simpler in the 80s and 90s when they were far more complicated. Read fucking Maximum Carnage and tell me how simple that shit was.

 

[Veins]

I used to manage the biggest comic shop in the Chicago area for a few years, although I must admit I have been completely out of touch for a while now.

It always struck me that superheroes were the problem. It's just too niche of an audience, all 35 year old men with nostalgia and getting older all the time. It always felt impossible to get other people into the store. Some women and younger kids came in to look at Manga or Pokemon or some indy books....and never gave superhero books a glance. They would never go from DBZ or Optic Nerve to "mainstream" books....and we didn't have enough diversity of product to offer to them.

It struck me as so weird that the industry in America developed that way, with such a vast majority of stories being "costumed crime fighting" stories. No other entertainment media is that focused on such a narrow type of story. Comics in other countries, like the obvious reference japan, have all types of stories to appeal to all types of people. Ours appeal to 60s,70s,80s men and thats about it.

But Marvel/DC have to keep it that way to avoid alienating those remaining fans who are the only (shrinking) cash cow they have left.

Great post. I've always wondered why superheroes became the be all and end all of comics.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

Here's a response article from Comicsbeat that does a better job at tackling this subject:

You may feel differently, but I feel that destroying the DM as it stands without a substitute model in place would led to many good men, women and non binary creators losing their livelihoods. I think we have a new generation of readers who prefer graphic novels, and the periodical is in the process of becoming less crucial to the industry as a whole. I believe this because the dollar value of graphic novels in both the DM and bookstores is more than the dollar value of periodical sales. DC now makes more from GNs than from periodicals, and Marvel’s GN sales are rising as well. They are not denying the existence of this trend.

Comics are almost certainly in a golden era right now…if you don’t care about Marvel and DC, something that is very easy at Stately Beat Manor. There are so may great comics coming out from Image, Dark Horse, IDW, Boom, Dynamite, First Second, Self Made Hero, Abrams, Retrofit, Fantagraphics, Drawn & Quarterly, Koyama Press, Uncivilized, Peow and dozens of other publishers. There are so many good comics to read stacked up by my desk and clogging my dropbox that I feel depressed about ever finding time to read them. 



 

[ColdLasagna]

Random thoughts.

I miss the 70's.

As someone who has an entire basement filled with long boxes I went digital a few years ago for most of my reading and don't miss the comic store all that much.

3.99 for a book that will have four writers and a cancellation in less than 30 issues?

Pass.

The public having access to comics in drug stores and such was such a wonderful gateway to catch a new reader.

 

[kswiston]

Events and crossovers in the 90's:

Those are only the line wide events. We had nonstop 2-3 title crossover stories where if you were reading Nightwing, you would get half a story unless you went out and bought some random issues of Azrael or Birds of Prey or whatever. That happens ovcasionally now, but nowhere near as often as the 90s.


As for prices, I don't know if things have changed recently, but the bigger comic stores were getting their books for a bit over 50% of cover price from Diamond a decade ago. Given Diamond's distribution cut, Marvel/DC were likey getting a little over $1 from a $3 book. They have to pay for printing out of that and pay for all of the creators. There's no real margin to decrease prices on a full colour book with decent paper, given that ad prices would be low due to the low readerbase.

What doesnt make sense is pricing the digital versions at price parity. When I was a regular comicbook customer, my local comic store gave me a 25% discount on everything. High margins on books allowed retailers to undercut MSRP. At least for customers with pull lists. Few regular consumers are actually paying cover price.

Digital comics should be $2 new and $1 after 3-4 months. They have no resale price and no printing costs. However, like digital games, publishers bow down the wishes of retail.

 

[Stiflers Mom]

This is the oldest comic book I still own from my childhood:

As you can see, they were 1.90 Deutsche Mark back then in 1982. Modern Superhero books cost around 15 Euro or more now, which is a lot of money to spend on a comic book, even for me.. They have a lot more pages, though. It's a much more hard decision to buy one, anyway.

And you could buy these in almost ever supermarket back then. Nowadays, you can only get these in specialized book and newspaper stores.

It's no wonder for me, that young people don't give a shit anymore about comics. I wouldn't either if I were that age.

 

[Gipsy Danger]

This is the oldest comic book I still own from my childhood:



As you can see, they were 1.90 Deutsche Mark back then in 1982. Modern Superhero books cost around 15 Euro or more now, which is a lot of money to spend on a comic book, even for me.. They have a lot more pages, though. It's a much more hard decision to buy one, anyway.

And you could buy these in almost ever supermarket back then. Nowadays, you can only get these in specialized book and newspaper stores.

It's no wonder for me, that young people don't give a shit anymore about comics. I wouldn't either if I were that age.

A single comic is 15 euro in Germany? That can't be right. They're £2.49 in UK and $4 in the US. £1.99/$3 for DC rebirth books.

 

[duckroll]

I used to manage the biggest comic shop in the Chicago area for a few years, although I must admit I have been completely out of touch for a while now.

It always struck me that superheroes were the problem. It's just too niche of an audience, all 35 year old men with nostalgia and getting older all the time. It always felt impossible to get other people into the store. Some women and younger kids came in to look at Manga or Pokemon or some indy books....and never gave superhero books a glance. They would never go from DBZ or Optic Nerve to "mainstream" books....and we didn't have enough diversity of product to offer to them.

It struck me as so weird that the industry in America developed that way, with such a vast majority of stories being "costumed crime fighting" stories. No other entertainment media is that focused on such a narrow type of story. Comics in other countries, like the obvious reference japan, have all types of stories to appeal to all types of people. Ours appeal to 60s,70s,80s men and thats about it.

But Marvel/DC have to keep it that way to avoid alienating those remaining fans who are the only (shrinking) cash cow they have left.

I don't agree with this, especially with the comparison to Japan, because it's simply not true. Is there a diverse range of manga in Japan if you want to look for that? Yes. Is there a diverse range of comics in English if you want to look for that? Yes. But what are the most popular ones which are made en masse and selling the most? The superhero/superpowered/chosen one stories for teenagers with power levels, lots of battles, and power fantasies for boys. That's just how it is one way or other.

Best selling manga series in 2015: http://www.oricon.co.jp/special/48458/7/
Best selling manga series in the first half of 2016: http://www.oricon.co.jp/special/48989/7/

Top selling comics in 2015: http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2015.html
Top selling comics so far in 2016: http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2016.html

You want more diverse manga? You gotta look at the publishers and magazine brands targeting women and adult men. You want more diverse comics? Go read Image.

 

[Stiflers Mom]

A single comic is 15 euro in Germany? That can't be right. They're £2.49 in UK and $4 in the US. £1.99/$3 for DC rebirth books.

It's all I ever saw over the last years in german book and newspaper stores. I don't pay much attention anymore, though.

 

[Manmademan]

I used to manage the biggest comic shop in the Chicago area for a few years, although I must admit I have been completely out of touch for a while now.

It always struck me that superheroes were the problem. It's just too niche of an audience, all 35 year old men with nostalgia and getting older all the time. It always felt impossible to get other people into the store. Some women and younger kids came in to look at Manga or Pokemon or some indy books....and never gave superhero books a glance. They would never go from DBZ or Optic Nerve to "mainstream" books....and we didn't have enough diversity of product to offer to them.

It struck me as so weird that the industry in America developed that way, with such a vast majority of stories being "costumed crime fighting" stories. No other entertainment media is that focused on such a narrow type of story. Comics in other countries, like the obvious reference japan, have all types of stories to appeal to all types of people. Ours appeal to 60s,70s,80s men and thats about it.

But Marvel/DC have to keep it that way to avoid alienating those remaining fans who are the only (shrinking) cash cow they have left.

Comics WERE a lot more broad, with horror, westerns, mysteries etc being a big part of the market until moral panic struck and congressional hearings on what was appropriate for kids to read popped up in the 50s(?).

That bit of business drove just about everything except superhero books into extinction, and even those ended up subject to the comics code authority which put insane regulations on what you could and could not print in a book.

The CCA died somewhere around the turn of the century and you can find anything on shelves now, but for decades that was not the case.

 

[Affeinvasion]

Modern audiences don't have the patience to wait a month or more to continue a story.

 

[Mindwipe]

It's kinda amazing that there's this huge thread that ignores the fact that the digital market is completely different and about a third of the market. And trades are about another third.

Digital will be half in two years.

Things are going to change because of that if nothing else.

 

[Darkangel]

I mean, the reality is, who is going to pay 4-5 dollars for a 24/32 page comic other than 30-something collectors? I think for kids, they probably see more value in spending that money elsewhere.

I think that short, issue-based comics are simply outdated. Back in the day these comics were cheap, and people had fewer (solo) entertainment options. They just aren't a good value anymore.

I'd rather spend extra and get something lengthy with a complete storyline (like a TPB or Manga volume). If the comicbook industry wants to keep pumping out 24 page issues, then they need to go digital or subscription-based and lower the price.

 

[fredrancour]

I used to manage the biggest comic shop in the Chicago area for a few years, although I must admit I have been completely out of touch for a while now.

It always struck me that superheroes were the problem. It's just too niche of an audience, all 35 year old men with nostalgia and getting older all the time. It always felt impossible to get other people into the store. Some women and younger kids came in to look at Manga or Pokemon or some indy books....and never gave superhero books a glance. They would never go from DBZ or Optic Nerve to "mainstream" books....and we didn't have enough diversity of product to offer to them.

It struck me as so weird that the industry in America developed that way, with such a vast majority of stories being "costumed crime fighting" stories. No other entertainment media is that focused on such a narrow type of story. Comics in other countries, like the obvious reference japan, have all types of stories to appeal to all types of people. Ours appeal to 60s,70s,80s men and thats about it.

But Marvel/DC have to keep it that way to avoid alienating those remaining fans who are the only (shrinking) cash cow they have left.

i think that comics code thing killed off a lot of the genre diversity in the world of bestsellers. it was in the 70s or 80s.

edit: oops beaten by someone more knowledgable

 

[kswiston]

As duckroll pointed out, the top Manga properties in Japan are basically the Japanese equivalent of superhero comics, so I doubt superheroes themselves are the issue. Those sorts of stories are universally popular, especially among younger boys/teens.

In fact, it sort of makes sense that superhero fans gravitated towards comics. Until recently, that was the only place you could reliably get superhero stories outside of a few after school cartoon shows. Even now, videogames, novels, etc are pretty light on Superhero stuff given how popular the films can be. I guess live avtion TV also started picking up the slack.

 

[Tawney Bomb]

Modern audiences don't have the patience to wait a month or more to continue a story.

This is probably my biggest gripe. I hate the wait. Just give me a graphic novel.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

Modern audiences don't have the patience to wait a month or more to continue a story.

But we have no problem waiting months for the next volume of a manga.

 

[PdotMichael]

The chart is scewed because the weekly shounen series are basically mass produced and have way more volumes out every year.

The main difference to other markets is that the popular non action series are still selling hundred thousands copies, which provides a healthy base for a wide range of manga series and are not some small niche like the various graphic novels.

 

[NCR Redslayer]

How is Archie Comics doing nowadays? I remember seeing the occasional Archie digest in the supermarket lines long after Marvel and DC comics weren't being carried in supermarkets.

Theres a new archie comie thats getting a show and a new zombie archie comic thats great. The Archies are better than ever!

 

[GreenScar]

Warning, long post.
Various thoughts:

1. The "just go back to newsprint" idea doesn't work. A friend of mine put out a comic a few years ago and saw all the different printing options. When it came down to it, the difference in price between shitty newsprint and decent to good paper stock was so minuscule that it honestly made no sense to go that route.

2. I always got a kick out of creators blaming people who wait for the trade, while writing a book that's currently on part 4 of 6. I'm supposed to feel guilty for not buying an incomplete product? Good luck with that.

3. The american comic book industry is definitely choking on super heroes, and that's it's own fault. While popular in the '40s, by the '50s, superheroes were, by and large, being outsold by crime and horror comics. After the whole Seduction of the Innocent fallout, Marvel and DC contributed to creating the Comics Code of Authority and purposely contributed wording that would effectively kill off the Crime/Horror book market.

4. The notion of new readers catching up by just wiki-ing what they need to know actually works against comics in the long run. If a person needs to read up on X amount of previous Spider-Man stories (just using it as an example, don't "um actually" me), in order to understand whatever is happening in the current arc, then it's not much of a leap for them to realize that they can just do the same with the current shit and not buy anything at all.

5. The '80 and '90s did have a ton of crossovers, but the level and scale of them paled in comparison to what's going on now. They also helped contribute to the comic book crash of the '90s and Marvel actually going bankrupt, so trying to replicate that probably isn't the best idea anyway. Few people seemed to remember that what helped climb Marvel and the Superhero industry out of the hole was when Quesada and Jemas took over and basically forbade any line wide events for years until House of M jumped it back off.


Finally, I personally could say I got into comics through the Hulk tv show, but that wouldn't be truly accurate. I grew up on the show while it was in syndication, and it wasn't until after the last TV movie that I actually started reading the comic. I get the feeling that Marvel (in particular, but DC too) goes all-in on tying it's books in with the TV versions as if there's a guaranteed follow through. "Since SHIELD is in the movies, we'll make every single superhero a SHIELD agent. And also an Avenger." It just doesn't work that way, and just pisses off the actual fans of the comic versions. Maybe the market for people who want to read about these character every month for-fucking-ever, is a lot smaller than the people who are willing to sit through an Avengers or Batman movie once every two the three years? Maybe that constant presence is the problem? Surely, it'd be easier to hype up the first Batman comic in 3 years, than the newest arc in one of the 5 Batman monthly comics. Hell, it could even be the medium. Just because I watched the X-Files on tv doesn't mean I want to watch them in the movies.

I don't know. At times, I've definitely felt that the industry did deserve to fall at certain points. Mostly, because everyone from the people who run it, all the way down to the fans, everyone seems to have such low self-esteem in regards to being connected with it. Often, I think that's the real root of the problem. They try to sell characters, or plots, and (very rarely) creators, but they never try to sell the beauty that is the actual comic book medium. It's always some self-deprecating shit. No wonder people aren't lining up in droves for it.

 

[KHlover]

But we have no problem waiting months for the next volume of a manga.

Well to be fair a manga volume is 250 something pages, whereas three months of comics net you about 90 pages.

Spoiler

Also, as indicated by the bazillion of illegal manga hosters I think people clearly DO have a problem with waiting for so long.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

Warning, long post.
Various thoughts:

1. The "just go back to newsprint" idea doesn't work. A friend of mine put out a comic a few years ago and saw all the different printing options. When it came down to it, the difference in price between shitty newsprint and decent to good paper stock was so minuscule that it honestly made no sense to go that route.

2. I always got a kick out of creators blaming people who wait for the trade, while writing a book that's currently on part 4 of 6. I'm supposed to feel guilty for not buying an incomplete product? Good luck with that.

3. The american comic book industry is definitely choking on super heroes, and that's it's own fault. While popular in the '40s, by the '50s, superheroes were, by and large, being outsold by crime and horror comics. After the whole Seduction of the Innocent fallout, Marvel and DC contributed to creating the Comics Code of Authority and purposely contributed wording that would effectively kill off the Crime/Horror book market.

4. The notion of new readers catching up by just wiki-ing what they need to know actually works against comics in the long run. If a person needs to read up on X amount of previous Spider-Man stories (just using it as an example, don't "um actually" me), in order to understand whatever is happening in the current arc, then it's not much of a leap for them to realize that they can just do the same with the current shit and not buy anything at all.

5. The '80 and '90s did have a ton of crossovers, but the level and scale of them paled in comparison to what's going on now. They also helped contribute to the comic book crash of the '90s and Marvel actually going bankrupt, so trying to replicate that probably isn't the best idea anyway. Few people seemed to remember that what helped climb Marvel and the Superhero industry out of the hole was when Quesada and Jemas took over and basically forbade any line wide events for years until House of M jumped it back off.


Finally, I personally could say I got into comics through the Hulk tv show, but that wouldn't be truly accurate. I grew up on the show while it was in syndication, and it wasn't until after the last TV movie that I actually started reading the comic. I get the feeling that Marvel (in particular, but DC too) goes all-in on tying it's books in with the TV versions as if there's a guaranteed follow through. "Since SHIELD is in the movies, we'll make every single superhero a SHIELD agent. And also an Avenger." It just doesn't work that way, and just pisses off the actual fans of the comic versions. Maybe the market for people who want to read about these character every month for-fucking-ever, is a lot smaller than the people who are willing to sit through an Avengers or Batman movie once every two the three years? Maybe that constant presence is the problem? Surely, it'd be easier to hype up the first Batman comic in 3 years, than the newest arc in one of the 5 Batman monthly comics. Hell, it could even be the medium. Just because I watched the X-Files on tv doesn't mean I want to watch them in the movies.

I don't know. At times, I've definitely felt that the industry did deserve to fall at certain points. Mostly, because everyone from the people who run it, all the way down to the fans, everyone seems to have such low self-esteem in regards to being connected with it. Often, I think that's the real root of the problem. They try to sell characters, or plots, and (very rarely) creators, but they never try to sell the beauty that is the actual comic book medium. It's always some self-deprecating shit. No wonder people aren't lining up in droves for it.

Creators create the beauty of the comic medium. They are not different entities. It's important to remember the names of writers and artists who do it so you can further support them and thus support the comic medium. Your being a little cynical if you think everyone in the industry is out to exploit and get rich. Creators know comics isn't the place to make money.

 

[deadscreensky]

I wouldn't say its as little as 100,000 (not everyone buys every title obviously) but I bet its less than a million

I'm not exactly sure where it comes from, but I've seen the 100k number thrown around by the 'experts' for at least a couple years now, not just in this editorial.

It's probably a limited subset of the actual 'comic'-reading audience, like only the number of people who buy floppies in an average month. (So for example even though I bought three volumes of Berserk last week I wouldn't count, which is arguably okay because we're ultimately talking about American cape comics.) But a quick googling on my part seems to show a rough consensus that this audience is under half a million people a month, and probably quite a bit under that. A reasonable estimate I saw suggested successful comic shops each have about 200 regular customers, and there's under 2000 shops in the US, and obviously not all of them are going to be successful, etc.

Regardless of the ultimate number, we're basically talking about a smaller audience than the number of people in the US who buy even a middle tier video game on release. It's an incredibly tiny and niche audience, and that result is entirely the fault of the big two.

 

[beat]

Aside from every other societal and publishing difference, don't forget that the US is 26 times the size of Japan. Even if Batman sold as many copies as Weekly Shonen Jump (approx. 2.4m), they costs of distributing them over such a much larger area are daunting.

But we have national distribution for things as different as candy bars and as similar as weekly magazines like Entertainment Weekly.

Not true. 80s and 90s absolutely had the same bullshit that comics have now.

DC, 1984: Hey, Crisis on Infinite Earths did great numbers!
DC, 1986: Here's Legends!
DC, 1988: Or try this weekly thing Millennium!

(Legends, at least, had tremendous art. Millennium was not good.)

 

[The Technomancer]

Modern audiences don't have the patience to wait a month or more to continue a story.

Honestly? The current amount of story you get in comics isn't enough monthly. I mean this is a very subjective thing, but manga hits a good rhythm for me. The chapter lengths in weekly magazines are satisfying, and the release schedule of compiled volumes work for me. But waiting an entire month for how much story is contained in a standard Western comic leads to stories that feel incredibly...fragmented

Real western comics fans are going to kill me for this but...do more comics need to be in black and white? Or at least cheaply colored? My direct experience with the labor of comic creation is limited to newspaper comics, but even there with the daily color requirements of most major papers these days I know how much of a huge bottleneck it can be to color things to a high quality

 

[biggersmaller]

Marvel should've taken the Twilight and Harry Potter model of marketing the release of comics specifically planned to have movies based off them.

Then again, most movies are based off a whole host of series - so...

 

[beat]

BTW, yeah, it's genuinely surprising to me how the original piece didn't even mention webcomics.

 

[appaws]

I don't agree with this, especially with the comparison to Japan, because it's simply not true. Is there a diverse range of manga in Japan if you want to look for that? Yes. Is there a diverse range of comics in English if you want to look for that? Yes. But what are the most popular ones which are made en masse and selling the most? The superhero/superpowered/chosen one stories for teenagers with power levels, lots of battles, and power fantasies for boys. That's just how it is one way or other.

Best selling manga series in 2015: http://www.oricon.co.jp/special/48458/7/
Best selling manga series in the first half of 2016: http://www.oricon.co.jp/special/48989/7/

Top selling comics in 2015: http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2015.html
Top selling comics so far in 2016: http://www.comichron.com/monthlycomicssales/2016.html

You want more diverse manga? You gotta look at the publishers and magazine brands targeting women and adult men. You want more diverse comics? Go read Image.

Well, perhaps there is more diverse selection available, but in the eyes of the general public it does not exist. If you ask an American to define a comic book, they will mention superheroes....if they are under 30 perhaps they will mention manga or something about Japan.

I know because I tried to push interesting non-superhero books all the time. It was difficult. Our regulars and club members were the stereotypical middle aged men who had an overwhelming nostalgia for the superhero genre (and I fell in that category as well). They spent the money so we gave them the service. We loved selling to kids or suburban moms who wanted to get their kids to read more, but those kids did not transition to super hero books in the same way I transitioned from GI Joe (the Pokemon of my day) to X-Men and Teen Titans.

The public perception, at the very least, is that comic books ARE superhero stories. Good luck getting women or people who don't have that taste to even walk in the door.

The fact that superhero comics outsell everything else is a chokehold on the industry being able to reach out to anyone new.....The same middle-aged fanboys will be coming into the shops until they drift away or die.

 

[Sibersk Esto]

Honestly? The current amount of story you get in comics isn't enough monthly. I mean this is a very subjective thing, but manga hits a good rhythm for me. The chapter lengths in weekly magazines are satisfying, and the release schedule of compiled volumes work for me. But waiting an entire month for how much story is contained in a standard Western comic leads to stories that feel incredibly...fragmented

Real western comics fans are going to kill me for this but...do more comics need to be in black and white? Or at least cheaply colored? My direct experience with the labor of comic creation is limited to newspaper comics, but even there with the daily color requirements of most major papers these days I know how much of a huge bottleneck it can be to color things to a high quality

Marvel and DC characters wouldn't survive without color.

 

[The Kree]

I used to buy comics at a local video store.

Anybody else old enough to remembers video stores?

I used to rent videos and buy comics from a physical place in the real world.

 

[firehawk12]

Warning, long post.
Various thoughts:

1. The "just go back to newsprint" idea doesn't work. A friend of mine put out a comic a few years ago and saw all the different printing options. When it came down to it, the difference in price between shitty newsprint and decent to good paper stock was so minuscule that it honestly made no sense to go that route.

Is this just economies of scale?

Shounen Jump, Japan's biggest weekly comic book "magazine", prints on non-white crappy newsprint and is able to put out a phonebook sized volume EACH WEEK:

These are meant to be disposable and passed around between friends. They're also fairly cheap, especially compared to the floppy model that exists in America today.

Imagine if Marvel collected every single issue they were releasing each week into a single volume and sold that for 10 bucks. That's what Japan gets all the time, and there are dozens of these types of magazines to fit different demographics.

 

[kswiston]

I'm not exactly sure where it comes from, but I've seen the 100k number thrown around by the 'experts' for at least a couple years now, not just in this editorial.

100k is an under-exaggeration. Batman (the comic not the character) was selling about 100k floppies a month for 5 years straight. Stores dont buy a ton of overstock outside of #1s or special issues. Not that many people are buying multiple covers. Not everyone reads Batman (or Dc/Marvel). If I had to guess, I would say that the monthly comic reading audience is a 250-350k, not counting digital, piracy, or trades.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

Is this just economies of scale?

Shounen Jump, Japan's biggest weekly comic book "magazine", prints on non-white crappy newsprint and is able to put out a phonebook sized volume EACH WEEK:

These are meant to be disposable and passed around between friends. They're also fairly cheap, especially compared to the floppy model that exists in America today.

Imagine if Marvel collected every single issue they were releasing each week into a single volume and sold that for 10 bucks. That's what Japan gets all the time, and there are dozens of these types of magazines to fit different demographics.

Marvel and DC do that but they sell it back to you in an oversized hardcover omnibus that can cost up to $100.

DC is collecting every one-shot Rebirth issue for this omnibus.
Every single Marvel Now first issue.

 

[firehawk12]

Marvel and DC do that but they sell it back to you in an oversized hardcover omnibus that can cost up to $100.

DC is collecting every one-shot Rebirth issue for this omnibus.
Every single Marvel Now first issue.

Yeah, I'm not talking about special omnibus issues though.
I have no idea what comes out now, but imagine if Iron Man #201 and Spiderman #567 and Captain America #110 and Captain Marvel #56 and Hulk #67 and Black Widow #154 and Avengers #755 and whatever else came out that week were just collected into a single volume.

That's how the biggest manga (One Piece, Attack on Titan, Naruto, whatever) are first distributed to consumers. There isn't the idea of getting a single issue/chapter of a story for 5 bucks just so you can put it in a bag and board and store it in a long box.

 

[ElNarez]

Imagine if Marvel collected every single issue they were releasing each week into a single volume and sold that for 10 bucks. That's what Japan gets all the time, and there are dozens of these types of magazines to fit different demographics.

Yeah, and, in order to do that, the manga industry uses assistants working an ungodly amount of hours per day for a salary that's barely enough to live on.

Personally, I'd rather have a model that's profitable for everyone.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

Yeah, I'm not talking about special omnibus issues though.
I have no idea what comes out now, but imagine if Iron Man #201 and Spiderman #567 and Captain America #110 and Captain Marvel #56 and Hulk #67 and Black Widow #154 and Avengers #755 and whatever else came out that week were just collected into a single volume.

That's how the biggest manga (One Piece, Attack on Titan, Naruto, whatever) are first distributed to consumers. There isn't the idea of getting a single issue/chapter of a story for 5 bucks just so you can put it in a bag and board and store it in a long box.

That would be bad for comic shops if it ever caught on.

 

[firehawk12]

Yeah, and, in order to do that, the manga industry uses assistants working an ungodly amount of hours per day for a salary that's barely enough to live on.

Personally, I'd rather have a model that's profitable for everyone.

It's not like the comics here are profitable though. At least at the big companies, the whole point seems to be just to support the movies now.

I haven't checked what it's like to be a comic creator in almost a decade, but I imagine even a top tier Oni Press creator isn't exactly making huge bank unless they are lucky and write the next Scott Pilgrim.

That would be bad for comic shops if it ever caught on.

Sure, but it'll be bad for these shops in 10-20 years when all the current nerds just stop buying floppies.

The one podcast I used to listen to hosted by a comic book store owner constantly pimped his Comixology affiliate link. That seems to be the way that the shops are evolving now - specialty retailers with loyal customers who support them.

But if the problem is "physical comics are dying", well, just staying with the status quo isn't really the solution.

 

[Sibersk Esto]

Yeah noooo way marvel and DC writers and artists would put up with a weekly schedule. That workload is completely insane.

 

[firehawk12]

Yeah noooo way marvel and DC writers and artists would put up with a weekly schedule. That workload is completely insane.

Well, not every title needs to be weekly either. Doesn't Marvel release like 5-10 different titles a week anyway?

 

[Ogodei]

Yeah noooo way marvel and DC writers and artists would put up with a weekly schedule. That workload is completely insane.

You could rotate the weeklies, which i seem to recall is what they did for things like the multiple concurrent Spiderman books that ran at one point (ditto for Superman or Batman), with less popular heroes rotating who's in and who's out each week.

 

[sycam0re]

eliminating the compartmentalization in creating comics would go a long way imo

 

[King Gilga]

The only comics I ever physically bought were archie comics, because they were always at shops/grocerystores/gas stations/w.e.

So yeah, it works.

 

[Sibersk Esto]

Well, not every title needs to be weekly either. Doesn't Marvel release like 5-10 different titles a week anyway?

You could rotate the weeklies, which i seem to recall is what they did for things like the multiple concurrent Spiderman books that ran at one point (ditto for Superman or Batman), with less popular heroes rotating who's in and who's out each week.

Then at that point you would have inconsistent sellers because one week would have big names and the next 3 weeks would have not as popular names. And in a Jump style collected format you drag down a bunch of titles instead of just one.

eliminating the compartmentalization in creating comics would go a long way imo

What do you mean?

 

[Abounder]

Smart phones is what is really hurting the old brick and mortar products; kids grow up faster than ever and don't get hooked on comics, DVDs, newspaper funnies, consoles, or toys for long. Digital killed the retail star

 

[Not Spaceghost]

Any industry where the consumer is being made responsible for consuming products in a specific way to ensure the industry keeps itself alive is run by idiots.

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

Any industry where the consumer is being made responsible for consuming products in a specific way to ensure the industry keeps itself alive is run by idiots.

It's not Capcom's fault fans didn't show enough support for Mega Man Legends 3.

Spoiler

/s.

 

[Shig]

I always wondered why DC and Marvel didn't try to tap into the monthly/weekly digest format when manga sales were in full swing. Shonen Jump was a fixture in supermarkets and magazine racks for a period there, while floppy comics were marching unabated on a long descent into exile. Buying a $5-6 magazine with several stories in it seems like it would have far, far more appeal to the layman than buying flimsy pamphlets a la carte for $4-5.

I'm sure it would have proven to be a great gestation tool for new series and concepts, too. Having a mag on the stand with Spidey or Batman on the cover and some A-list properties in the contents would help put the butts in the seats, then they could experiment with running some more obscure characters or original stories alongside them and kind of experiment from there with Jump's "only the strong survive" reader-influenced process of elimination. Those kinds of projects would have a much better chance of grabbing a foothold if they began as popular side features than as islands unto themselves that readers had to hunt for specifically and buy individually. And as the digests continued, I bet you'd have seen the more popular side features steadily grow in notoriety and popularity to the point where they themselves were big properties.