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[Sephiroth_VII]

I'm sorry if my tone came across as being angry. I really am not.

I just wish folks would be honest with what it is. That's the statement I said when I entered into this thread.

You say



A romance between an adult and a schoolgirl. That's okay is it?

I think it's OK to fantasise about, yes. I'm not really into the whole religious "whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart" bullshit.

If you want to fantasise about the granny behind the counter at the bookstore, go ahead. If you want to fantasise about the schoolgirl you saw on your way home, go ahead. Hell , if you want to fantasise about your mom or an anthropomorphic badger, go ahead! As long as you don't hurt anyone, I couldn't care less.

I don't necessarily want you to share those fantasies with me either, but if they stay in your own personal headspace, frankly, I just don't see the harm in it.

 

[YianGaruga]

virtual school girl that looks like that.

looks like what?

 

[mugwhump]

I think you're overselling the skeeviness of this particular title. I definitely think a major part of the appeal is being a girlfriend simulator, but it looks like a fairly innocuous one. I mean, "we went to the pool, wanna see photos?" That's the worst the game has to offer?

You posted that gif of the player trying to get an upskirt to support your point that people who like this are pervs. But the fact that the game goes out of its way to not allow the upskirt seems to weaken your argument, no?

Granted, I haven't been following the game too closely as I'm not that interested.

 

[casiopao]

Of course those are huge exaggerations.

The term that comes to my mind is "voyeurism". Of course there's a thin layer of pedophilia looming over the game since it's a schoolgirl you hang out with, it just cannot be ignored. Doesn't mean anyone who plays the game is a pedo. We would enter much more creepy of grounds if the game character was 10 or something.

But even in RL, people mostly/tend to like a younger people. Do you consider most if not all people in this world being Pedo then?

Lets said for example: A is30 and he is attracted to 18 years old Idol, does that make him a pedo?

Judging people only by their thoughts and fetish is just bland wrong. Once again, i like NTR genre in Doujin. But i sure as hell won't do that in RL as it will ruin others family. I just look for doujin or erotica novels to fill my fetish there. And i don't think what i did there is harmful towards anyone.

People should be judge by their action. If they actually in RL did pedo stuff, then he should be punished as heavy as possible.

 

[packy34]

I don't understand how it's possible to have a meaningful discussion about this if your position is that it's a 100% innocent teaching simulator with a virtual school girl that looks like that.

That's what millions of girls wear to school every day dude. Yes, many people find it sexually attractive. That doesn't mean the game is all about titillation. I never said it was 100% innocent. But it's not 100% underage voyeur sim either, and there certainly isn't any "grooming". It's much much much much closer to being innocent. Watch release-code gameplay instead of the same 2 year old concept gif and see if your opinion changes.

 

[vato_loco]

Your piece was very well written, OP, but I'm pretty sure it would've been best suited for a VR experience like the Dead or Alive Xtreme 3 VR portion (coming soon) than this, since this one seems pretty tame overall.

I guess the "teacher" part of the equation clouded your judgement a bit, since you took it more personally than most.

 

[bomblord1]

While I can understand your point of view. I'm failing to make the connection between fairly innocent flirting like "We went to the pool want to see a picture" and dehumanization. Even if we assume she's not aware of the implications of that (which I don't agree is true) its still a far cry from dehumanization.

And your real world example seems to go to an extreme that simple doesn't seem to be present in the material.

 

[cityhunter]

Are you forced to buy it? Does the world have to conform to your worldview and values? Serious question.

 

[Sephiroth_VII]

I don't understand how it's possible to have a meaningful discussion about this if your position is that it's a 100% innocent teaching simulator with a virtual school girl that looks like that.

What, attractive?

You're right, I hate looking at attractive girls. I'd much rather she was unattractive, that would improve the game significantly.

Another disclaimer: I'm still waiting for the mail man to being me my headset(any minute now... DU ShopTo), so I haven't actually played SL yet. That's why I try to argue the more general Pont about the morality of romance games, rather than debate whether or not this particular game is one.

 

[SenkiDala]

Camera lost sight of him after he...well...yeah.

In fact not at all. The reason why it goes dark is not because it's "censored" if you try to see under her skirt, you CAN, the screen doesn't goes dark (but she hide her panty). In this gif it goes dark because when he moves that way he goes out of the camera field, so there's no tracking anymore, you'd have the same error screen if you do the same with any other VR game. That's not a censorship or something like that.

 

[cyberheater]

I think it's OK to fantasise about, yes. I'm not really into the whole religious "whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart" bullshit.

If you want to fantasise about the granny behind the counter at the bookstore, go ahead. If you want to fantasise about the schoolgirl you saw on your way home, go ahead. Hell , if you want to fantasise about your mom or an anthropomorphic badger, go ahead! As long as you don't hurt anyone, I couldn't care less.

I don't necessarily want you to share those fantasies with me either, but if they satay in your own personal headspace, frankly, I just don't see the harm in it.

Thanks for replying with your thoughts on this. I do agree with a lot of what you said but I think there is a line (at least in my head) between having a internal fantasy about something and someone clearly designing a game to enable those types of fantasies.

I know we can go on about the moral equivalence of murder vs pedo activity but there is a reason why reviewers of this came said it made them feel creepy.

Right folks. I'm off to the gym.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Right, these are the terrible arguments which say more about the person making it than anything else. If you try to argue that this is a serious teaching sim and nothing else, you are embarrassed about elements of the game and trying to downplay it. If you argue that GTA doesn't encourage rampant killing and that cop system is an actual deterrent, then you are making an intellectually dishonest argument. These threads always end up being shitty because no one is actually interested in discussing a point, they have a position and they want to hammer that position into every reply while distorting reality to fit their argument. It's sad.

I mean if we're going by what rockstar says this is the purpose behind the police system.

The main role of the Police in-game is to make crime difficult for the player - and to provide a brooding reliable enemy and a challenge both in and out of missions. They also make the game more realistic. This theme is present throughout the entire series, although the exact details vary between games.

It's absolutely designed as a deterrent from certain behavior but the game is systemic and the way it's played in the open world is up to the player. It's like an alert in a MGS game. So although GTA is absolutely a crime simulator committing if the player wants it to be, said crimes are encouraged as much as sleeping with a prostitute and then killing her to get the money. That's not how the game is advertised outside of GTA:Online where senseless violence is the whole point and WAY more encouraged than if you just drive around in the main campaign. It absolutely encourages rampant killing during main missions since we're playing as criminals.

 

[Forkball]

Are you forced to buy it? Does the world have to conform to your worldview and values? Serious question.

You've never criticized anything? I mean you don't have to buy it.

 

[Hektor]

Really appreciate this post. You make good points. Particularly about AI.

Imagine a version of this game where if you get caught looking at lewd angles, the girl notices, and reacts negatively. What if you could lose your tutoring job if you creeped her too hard? I think that would at least show the developers have acknowledged the situation that they've created.

I thought your point of criticism is implied non-consensuality in this game?

 

[ArjanN]

From everything I've seen of it it seems incredibly tame. Like sub PG13 movie level tame.

 

[Dylan]

While I can understand your point of view. I'm failing to make the connection between fairly innocent flirting like "We went to the pool want to see a picture" and dehumanization.

Because it's innocent flirting if it happens in real life.

In a video game, you have to ask why the developers chose to make that happen. What is the dynamic they are trying to create between you and the girl, and what purpose does it ultimately serve to the type of game they are creating. The innocence and obliviousness of the virtual character is the root of the problem.

 

[Sephiroth_VII]

Thanks for replying with your thoughts on this. I do agree with a lot of what you said but I think there is a line (at least in my head) between having a internal fantasy about something and someone clearly designing a game to enable those types of fantasies.

I know we can go on about the moral equivalence of murder vs pedo activity but there is a reason why reviewers of this came said it made them feel creepy.

Thank you for the sensible post.

I think many western reviewers just aren't comfortable with intimity and romance as a major part of a game. Personally, I think it's unhealthy, and weird, that so many westerners are more comfortable with virtual murder than virtual sex with an attractive girl(of which there is none in SL, person who was about to take this quote out of context).

Of course, there is the additional factor of this being the first time many reviewers have been close to another "human being" in VR, which would make you uncomfortable. It's just a weird feeling, further enhanced by being in their room.

Hell, I had an upperclassman w at university in Japan who did home tutoring as a job, and he seemed pretty uncomfortable as well whenever he was scheduled to go to tutor a new person. It's just natural when you find yourself in the personal space of someone you don't know, and this comes across strongly in VR.

 

[Rappy]

Right, these are the terrible arguments which say more about the person making it than anything else. If you try to argue that this is a serious teaching sim and nothing else, you are embarrassed about elements of the game and trying to downplay it. If you argue that GTA doesn't encourage rampant killing and that cop system is an actual deterrent, then you are making an intellectually dishonest argument. These threads always end up being shitty because no one is actually interested in discussing a point, they have a position and they want to hammer that position into every reply while distorting reality to fit their argument. It's sad.

So why's this topic still open again? Is it because we need to finish the popcorn first?

 

[casiopao]

Thanks for replying with your thoughts on this. I do agree with a lot of what you said but I think there is a line (at least in my head) between having a internal fantasy about something and someone clearly designing a game to enable those types of fantasies.

I know we can go on about the moral equivalence of murder vs pedo activity but there is a reason why reviewers of this came said it made them feel creepy.

Right folks. I'm off to the gym.

Well, it all depends on each person way of viewing things then.

Some people may just feel that fantasy is fantasy while RL is RL and there is no need to linked both of those thing. But maybe some people which had the same view as u will had different view.

On the murder portion, i feel we are more or less being used to violence vs perverted which is why some reviewers can feel it as creepy while don't give a single problem with violence. Even when if u ask me, both of them is as bad or killing is even worst as it is an act of taking others life.

Well, dunno then. This thread had gone everywhere anyway.

 

[Iriscomeback]

Am I correct in assuming that some people are affraid that players of these kind of games start to think it's okay to behave in a certain, maybe pervy, way in real life towards young girls?

Because I really think by far most people know the difference between a fantasy and real life.

Playing a game like DOAX3 really doesn't make me think all girls like it when you take pictures of them on the beach in..compromising poses. I know that's a fantasy.

So many questions reading this thread...

 

[kyser73]

Someone should show OP DOAXVR Advanced Boob Physics & Interaction gifs.

 

[sechsterangriff]

What is the dynamic they are trying to create between you and the girl, and what purpose does it ultimately serve to the type of game they are creating.

She shows you a picture of the place where they went, not a picture of her. And the purpose of that scene is to convey the same sense of presence when a person is right next to you showing her phone.

 

[chillybright]

The problem with OP's argument is not whether the game is creepy or not, but whether those who purchase/play this game is weird or not.

Op clearly cannot stand there are so many are looking forward to play this game, and also thinks you have a problem if you decide to buy 10 boxes of Twinkies.

 

[packy34]

Because it's innocent flirting if it happens in real life.

In a video game, you have to ask why the developers chose to make that happen. What is the dynamic they are trying to create between you and the girl, and what purpose does it ultimately serve to the type of game they are creating. The innocence and obliviousness of the virtual character is the root of the problem.

I may be interpreting your point here wrong, so I'll ask:

Does this mean you think girls showing pictures of themselves at the pool/in bikinis to someone in real life is flirting?

 

[Dylan]

I thought your point of criticism is implied non-consensuality in this game?

Precisely. So if there is a mechanic that tells you "this character doesn't want you doing this to her", you can at least argue as the developer that the game isn't encouraging you to be a creep. As it is now, it feels like the developer is essentially saying: "To your hearts content, lads. She's here for your pleasure."

 

[『Inaba Resident』]

What even is this thread anymore

 

[dramatis]

I feel like the only person worth arguing with is someone who has played dating sims and shooters and thinks that Summer Lesson crossed a line.

People who are arguing don't even have experience with this genre and this game, it's like arguing with a Trump supporter who don't even believe in news reports.

If we are instituting arbitrary qualifications for discussing possibly problematic material in video games, then I would like to implement my own arbitrary qualification: I feel like the only people who can discuss whether or not Summer Lesson crossed the line are women.

Seems like the people who are arguing don't have experience with being sexualized or harassed, so it is rather like arguing with Trump supporters who think bragging about sexual assault is just locker room talk.

Do be careful where you draw your arbitrary limitations, because you can be excluded through other, more legitimate distinctions, I would think.

 

[Klart]

Please leave your beef out of it.

 

[Sephiroth_VII]

I mean if we're going by what rockstar says this is the purpose behind the police system.


It's absolutely designed as a deterrent from certain behavior but the game is systemic and the way it's played in the open world is up to the player. It's like an alert in a MGS game. So although GTA is absolutely a crime simulator committing if the player wants it to be, said crimes are encouraged as much as sleeping with a prostitute and then killing her to get the money. That's not how the game is advertised outside of GTA:Online where senseless violence is the whole point and WAY more encouraged than if you just drive around in the main campaign. It absolutely encourages rampant killing during main missions since we're playing as criminals.

Wanting to make doing crimes difficult isn't the same as wanting to deter it in a game. If they truly wanted to deter it, you should just get a game over as soon as you shoot a civilian.

But it doesn't, and most of the main missions have you behave like a criminal. In fact, if they wanted to deter crime, the first thing they should do is change the story completely. I blew the head off an innocent CEO a few missions in FFS. This is clearly not something they take issue with.

 

[messiaen]

OP, this doesn't make anything better, but will maybe paint the picture as to why this game exists.

Japanese culture is extremely misogynistic. The bad parts of Confucianism are still deeply rooted in their culture, in regards with its ideologies about gender roles and women. It's a very patriarchal and conservative society, so this kind of behavior and treatment toward women is not exactly grotesque and not many people will bat an eye at the idea.

 

[cityhunter]

You've never criticized anything? I mean you don't have to buy it.

I don't buy what I don't like. And I don't go on to make some moral crusade about it and asserting how my moral is higher than those that like it

 

[Dylan]

She shows you a picture of the place where they went, not a picture of her. And the purpose of that scene is to convey the same sense of presence when a person is right next to you showing her phone.

That's fair enough. In this specific case, my beef is with whoever cut that trailer, because to me it's pretty clear cut what they were trying to evoke. Otherwise, it's a pretty strange piece of content to single-out in a 2 minute trailer.

 

[Auto-Reply]

After having seen gameplay of this... I feel like having to call the Police

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18OCCAqlx7k

 

[User123456]

That's fair enough. In this specific case, my beef is with whoever cut that trailer, because to me it's pretty clear cut what they were trying to evoke. Otherwise, it's a pretty strange piece of content to single-out in a 2 minute trailer.

What exactly is wrong about evoking that? Who does it hurt?

 

[Dylan]

I may be interpreting your point here wrong, so I'll ask:

Does this mean you think girls showing pictures of themselves at the pool/in bikinis to someone in real life is flirting?

Not necessarily. It's all about context.

Do you think that trailer included "we went to the beach, wanna see a picture" because it really wanted people to know that you can see pictures of beaches on the girls' cellphone?

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

Just to get it out of the way; I wouldn't consider myself conservative at all in terms of sexuality or 'artistic expression' or anything like that

I do think it's a bit depressing that this specific kind of experience seems to have been pushed near to the forefront of the VR zeitgeist (at least in Japan) with seemingly little backlash.

And that isn't even the part that disturbs me.

OP, you might be sexually conservative if a voyeur simulator 'disturbs you' and you are anguished by the lack of 'backlash.'

 

[packy34]

Not necessarily. It's all about context.

Do you think that trailer included "we went to the beach, wanna see a picture" because it really wanted people to know that you can see pictures of beaches on the girls' cellphone?

Without seeing the actual picture, it's impossible to say what the intention is.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Am I correct in assuming that some people are affraid that players of these kind of games start to think it's okay to behave in a certain, maybe pervy, way in real life towards young girls?

Because I really think by far most people know the difference between a fantasy and real life.

Playing a game like DOAX3 really doesn't make me think all girls like it when you take pictures of them on the beach in..compromising poses. I know that's a fantasy.

So many questions reading this thread...

Consider that the gaming community is one of the most toxic when it comes to women because of decades of constant sexualization and objectification. As well as racist, with some of flimsiest excuses ever conceived, "better be well written if it has a black protagonist." Like, this bingo card exists for a reason:

Like, people are legitimately arguing that this was advertised as an educational game about teaching a teenage girl. Which somehow includes literally being fed, going to the beach, and looking at her in a maid outfit.

Wanting to make doing crimes difficult isn't the same as wanting to deter it in a game. If they truly wanted to deter it, you should just get a game over as soon as you shoot a civilian.

But it doesn't, and most of the main missions have you behave like a criminal. In fact, if they wanted to deter crime, the first thing they should do is change the story completely. I blew the head off an innocent CEO a few missions in FFS. This is clearly not something they take issue with.

The point is that the violence is contextualized, not to deter crime completely. GTA is completely honest about what type of game it is and I nor anyone else is arguing that it's not a crime simulator, just that there are systems in place to make that more difficult. NONE of these games are comparable to hatred where the killing is not only encouraged via a crineworthy monologue but that's the only point, is senseless violence.

 

[KojiKnight]

I can't believe I read this whole thread.... It turned out just as I expected, but I still watched it all and enjoyed it... Just like the new Star Wars movie...


So I think there are a few points to floating around, and most of them aren't worth even discussing... People have varying tastes, and the material on view is not harming any actual person so I say live and let live.

While I do think there seems to be a lot of associating this virtual character with a real girl, and thus a lot of people as actually being creepy, I'd like to remind everyone that there is a very real thing where some guys (and probably girls as well) aren't into real people at all. There is a reason why a third (or was it a quarter?) of Japanese adults are still virgins, and it's not because they completely lack sexual urges.


*shrugs* Maybe I'm just more open minded because when I was a kid I had a crush on the girls I woo'ed in Harvest Moon. Didn't stop me from finding a real attractive adult female to marry and have 2 kids with when I got to that point in my life...


(edit) To be clear, yes I do believe this game is sexist. Yes, I do believe women's issues in gaming is a big thing that needs to be dealt with. I have 2 daughters who LOVE playing games, classic and new, and if they ever chose to go into the career path I'd hate for them to be singled out or harassed for being females... BUT I don't necessarily think games like this and more women working and being accepted in the industry without harrassment as being mutually exclusive.

 

[Baalzebup]

Not necessarily. It's all about context.

Do you think that trailer included "we went to the beach, wanna see a picture" because it really wanted people to know that you can see pictures of beaches on the girls' cellphone?

Without seeing the actual picture, it's impossible to say what the intention is.

But the trailer linked in the OP actually shows the picture itself, even it it is on-screen only very briefly.... It is quite literally a picture of the pool area itself, featuring zero non-plant based lifeforms.

 

[packy34]

Like, people are legitimately arguing that this was advertised as an educational game about teaching a teenage girl. Which somehow includes literally being fed, going to the beach, and looking at her in a maid outfit.

The game was very strategically marketed to get the interest of as many demographics as possible, including those interested in voyeurism. However - that doesn't necessarily mean the game is all about that. You talk about "going to the beach" - she's wearing more clothes there than she is at home - and "looking at her in a maid outfit" - again, even less revealing. The game requires players to bring their own preconceived sexual attractions to these things; it does not reinforce them.

 

[Crossing Eden]

OP, you might be sexually conservative if a voyeur simulator 'disturbs you' and you are anguished by the lack of 'backlash.'

"Being a voyeur to a teenage girl is disturbing."

^
There's nothing sexually conservative about that thought.

Without seeing the actual picture, it's impossible to say what the intention is.

Tell me which part of teaching includes being fed by teenage girls, going with them to the beach, and looking at them in maid outfits?

The game was very strategically marketed to get the interest of as many demographics as possible

I literally teach kids, none of this even REMOTELY resembles a teaching environment whatsoever.

including those interested in voyeurism.

Of an underage girl.

However - that doesn't necessarily mean the game is all about that.

Because the game has some not so subtle implications that everyone but you are seeing. Would you show your mother or sister these trailers and have her agree that this is just a game about teaching and that there are no other implications? You're being so incredibly disengenous right now, so again, kdos to the Japanese aka target audience for being way more honest about what the purpose is.

You talk about "going to the beach" - she's wearing more clothes there than she is at home - and "looking at her in a maid outfit" - again, even less revealing.

You shouldn't be doing either of these things at all with a teenager, regardless of how revealing the outfits are. (Let's seriously NOT ignore why they specifically chose a maid outfit).

The game requires players to bring their own preconceived sexual attractions to these things; it does not reinforce them.

Yes it does. The marketing is pretty clear cut.

 

[sechsterangriff]

Tell me which part of teaching includes being fed by teenage girls, going with them to the beach, and looking at them in maid outfits?

Well you can't do any of that. At least as the game is right now.

 

[PulseONE]

Whatever sexual undertones this game has, they're minimal enough that even me, a gay man, is interested in trying it simply because it's a new kind of experience.

 

[zoukka]

But even in RL, people mostly/tend to like a younger people. Do you consider most if not all people in this world being Pedo then?

Lets said for example: A is30 and he is attracted to 18 years old Idol, does that make him a pedo?

Judging people only by their thoughts and fetish is just bland wrong. Once again, i like NTR genre in Doujin. But i sure as hell won't do that in RL as it will ruin others family. I just look for doujin or erotica novels to fill my fetish there. And i don't think what i did there is harmful towards anyone.

People should be judge by their action. If they actually in RL did pedo stuff, then he should be punished as heavy as possible.

18 year olds aren't kids by definition in most countries and besides that pedophilia isn't even defined by strickly age (although that defines legal definitions for pedophilic actions), a pedophile is secually attracted to children. Not necessary underage persons, but people who are clearly children by all aspects including mental and physical appearances.

 

[Crossing Eden]

Well you can't do any of that. At least as the game is right now.

Judging by the coming soon those are gonna be dlc.

 

[Corpekata]

The game was very strategically marketed to get the interest of as many demographics as possible.

Really? They seem pretty laser focused in their marketing.

 

[KonradLaw]

I wonder what the OP will think about BR Kanojo, which essentially is a porn clone of Summer Lesson Ilussion is making

 

[AALLx]

"Being a voyeur to a teenage girl is disturbing."

^
There's nothing sexually conservative about that thought.


Tell me which part of teaching includes being fed by teenage girls, going with them to the beach, and looking at them in maid outfits?

I literally teach kids, none of this even REMOTELY resembles a teaching environment whatsoever.


Of an underage girl.


Because the game has some not so subtle implications that everyone but you are seeing. Would you show your mother or sister these trailers and have her agree that this is just a game about teaching and that there are no other implications? You're being so incredibly disengenous right now, so again, kdos to the Japanese aka target audience for being way more honest about what the purpose is.


You shouldn't be doing either of these things at all with a teenager, regardless of how revealing the outfits are. (Let's seriously NOT ignore why they specifically chose a maid outfit).


Yes it does. The marketing is pretty clear cut.

You forgot the part where it's not a real person. It's made of polygons and textures, and doesn't have any feelings.

 

[packy34]

"Being a voyeur to a teenage girl is disturbing."

^
There's nothing sexually conservative about that thought.


Tell me which part of teaching includes being fed by teenage girls, going with them to the beach, and looking at them in maid outfits?

I literally teach kids, none of this even REMOTELY resembles a teaching environment whatsoever.


Of an underage girl.


Because the game has some not so subtle implications that everyone but you are seeing. Would you show your mother or sister these trailers and have her agree that this is just a game about teaching and that there are no other implications? You're being so incredibly disengenous right now, so again, kdos to the Japanese aka target audience for being way more honest about what the purpose is.


You shouldn't be doing either of these things at all with a teenager, regardless of how revealing the outfits are. (Let's seriously NOT ignore why they specifically chose a maid outfit).


Yes it does. The marketing is pretty clear cut.

I mean, I don't agree with you on most of this, but I don't really think it's worth the energy to reply to all of it because this is a subjective issue, and most of my replies would be about the context of the interactions. Of course an older man shouldn't be going to the beach with an underage girl with sexual/voyeuristic intentions... but that's not the only reason an older man in an authoritative position would go with a girl to a beach. I promise, it's possible to not think about otherwise attractive girls sexually.

As I've said to others, I never once said the game was 100% innocent in what it's trying to do. But it's not a horrible grooming-rape sim either.