Sephiroth_VII
Member
Yes, people die when they're killed. They usually don't by dating and having sex, even if their partner happens to be older.
My Beef with Summer Lesson
- Thread starter Dylan
- Start date
packy34
Member
That's irrelevant. Publishers choose exactly what is shown, when it is shown, and to whom it is shown. Dev teams have absolutely no say in that most of the time.
sechsterangriff
Member
Regardless of the answer, you do understand you can't do anything like that in the game right?
packy34
Member
He repeatedly ignores replies like this, so either he thinks everyone is lying or doesn't care.
No. The game looks like a creep simulator to me, but the people who play it can play it however they want.
Well it's not like I approve of girls having to wear short skirts while boys can wear trousers anyways. That's a relic from ancient times.
No. Now answer his question instead of trying to divert the issue
Yes. Is that enough boss?
Sephiroth_VII
Member
Girls can wear boy's uniforms if they want, actually. At least as far as I know. Most just think it's weird. That goes for boys as well though.No. The game looks like a creep simulator to me, but the people who play it can play it however they want.
Well it's not like I approve of girls having to wear short skirts while boys can wear trousers anyways. That's a relic from ancient times.
No. Now answer his question instead of trying to divert the issue
Heh, your avatar fits the post perfectly.
Seriously, I get that VR can be used for creepy stuff, but this doesn't appear to be anything like what I saw at the booth next to mine at TGS 2014, where the player was in a tropical island with a girl and the first thing that happened was that she asked the player if they wanted to play (sadly, I don't remember anybody ever choosing "no"). The booth had two more demos (one of a roller coaster, and the other of a skiing simulator), but of course the one that brought the most attention was the resort + girls in swimsuits one.
But I guess all threads regarding Japan keep getting distorted into "hurr durr fanservice, Japan does it again" discussion that doesn't contribute to anything but to perpetuate self-righteous beliefs and demonizes a region that has a pretty varied output in media... but of course it's easier to generate buzz and gather ad revenue around the less savory works compared to things that are worth sharing, because that's exactly what the mass media needs to make a quick buck with the least amount of effort.
Of course it's up to the developers to not create pervy games using VR, but it's wrong to flat-out dismiss things because of possible immoral choices it'd give players, or build strawmen comparing tutoring lessons with idle chit-chat to grooming and raping girls, or that the OP should feel like he's killing real people in FPSes if he feels uneasy about the way the girl and the player's interactions with her are portrayed in this game. At the very least, it doesn't look like people are trying to troll us saying the game isn't meant purely as wank material.
Cool. I still hope the whole uniform system would be ended.
Several things I have to clarify here since so many people get it wrong.
The developers and the product has a goal and a genre.
The people who play the game might share this vision or not.
If the game is a creep simulator it doesn't mean that everyone who plays it engage in the creepy activities.
Even if the game wasn't intended as a creep simulator, there might be ways you can play it so that it looks like one.
Nobody can read peoples thoughts and motives to play any given game. (we can make guesses though).
Nostremitus
Member
I agree with the OP. I started to watch the trailer for this back when it first started getting talked about. It was pretty obvious what the intent of this experience is, and it disgusted me.
It's definitely not my thing...
It's definitely not my thing...
It's not quite the same but I always have it happen when I'm doing group projects for school that people get on FB or Instagram to share pictures of a hot girl that is a friend or an acquaintance for all. I roll my eyes when it happens but it engages in a similar ogling, where there's sexualization out of something that isn't specifically sexual and there's some sexual fantasy involved unconsciously with it.
The major difference is that there's no direct interaction with the girl in question. My impression of Summer Lesson is that it's actively inviting the player from engage on passive sexualization of the girl in question. Light flirting and some arousing stimulation via visuals seems to be the center of attention, with the teaching element being both the setting of the fantasy & power play while also being the wrapping paper for the software at hand. I don't think it's asking for everyone to masturbate to it but at the very least it wants the player to be infatuated with the girl.
It's also a rather interesting turn around from traditional dating sims, in which you're romancing the girls to reach that final "reward", since here it'll never move towards a direct romance, leaving you as a certain outsider (which is better for VR) and in a routine engagement without the end goal.
I'd think most people that aren't keen to the concept just shrug it off and ignore it, hence the positive echo room that you feel. But I don't think AI is up to the level were one should be concerned about the deceitful nature or objetification set in place, since this at the very worst would be comparable to phone sex line, which is fantasy all the way.
The more noteworthy bit is that this is being pushed as the forefront of the VR experience for consumers. Which I guess we'll see how it pans out in a broader sense outside of the 400k that purchase it. Advertising can also be a bit sly, for instance, Ninja Gaiden is advertised for the boobs in Japan, while it's very much a quality action game first.
The major difference is that there's no direct interaction with the girl in question. My impression of Summer Lesson is that it's actively inviting the player from engage on passive sexualization of the girl in question. Light flirting and some arousing stimulation via visuals seems to be the center of attention, with the teaching element being both the setting of the fantasy & power play while also being the wrapping paper for the software at hand. I don't think it's asking for everyone to masturbate to it but at the very least it wants the player to be infatuated with the girl.
It's also a rather interesting turn around from traditional dating sims, in which you're romancing the girls to reach that final "reward", since here it'll never move towards a direct romance, leaving you as a certain outsider (which is better for VR) and in a routine engagement without the end goal.
I'd think most people that aren't keen to the concept just shrug it off and ignore it, hence the positive echo room that you feel. But I don't think AI is up to the level were one should be concerned about the deceitful nature or objetification set in place, since this at the very worst would be comparable to phone sex line, which is fantasy all the way.
The more noteworthy bit is that this is being pushed as the forefront of the VR experience for consumers. Which I guess we'll see how it pans out in a broader sense outside of the 400k that purchase it. Advertising can also be a bit sly, for instance, Ninja Gaiden is advertised for the boobs in Japan, while it's very much a quality action game first.
cyberheater
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I was answering the specific question that featured this.
So yeah. If you are fantasising about that then that is 100% pedo activity or are you going to defend that as well?
Lmao yes, you can go on a killing spree and the worst thing that happens is getting your weapons and money taken away, assuming you get captured. After that, you are free to go on another shooting rampage or steal a car and run people over again.
The police system only exist to make the gameplay more varied and give a degree of "risk" to your action, they are not there to punish or make you feel bad. The game would probably lose if you could run over people or detonate cars without getting a reaction.
Iriscomeback
Member
I'm curious, would people be more okay with this if she wore a different outfit and looked older?
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
No it's not, the devs weren't held at gunpoint all teary eyed while making those marketing materials. Someone a couple pages back said there were likely a lot of discussions about how long the skirt should be, that's much more likely than them begrudgingly making advertising materials that don't convey their intentions.
YianGaruga
Banned
As usual, the discussion basically boils down to "people who apply real world morals to games" vs people who don't. It's almost pointless to talk because we will never agree.
encephalon
Member
Lol let's see how Japan talks about the game to see what kind of game it is. I wonder how in depth they'll go into the teaching aspect of the game!
Oh no, they're talking about "the things you can do ... up close ... with a girl."
"Sasuke was unable to conceal his excitement about seeing her work part time in a maid cafe!"
Can someone explain to me whether or not this works in regards to talking about picking up the product?
Because it says "let's hurry up and touch [it] at once." The [it] can and is obviously meant to be substituted with "her."
During your lessons, you can have a lot of conversations and close-proximity experiences that will get your heart beating. While guiding Hikari, enjoy the seven days you'll spend with her!
lazy link
Oh no, they're talking about "the things you can do ... up close ... with a girl."
"Sasuke was unable to conceal his excitement about seeing her work part time in a maid cafe!"
Can someone explain to me whether or not this works in regards to talking about picking up the product?
Because it says "let's hurry up and touch [it] at once." The [it] can and is obviously meant to be substituted with "her."
During your lessons, you can have a lot of conversations and close-proximity experiences that will get your heart beating. While guiding Hikari, enjoy the seven days you'll spend with her!
lazy link
I feel like the only person worth arguing with is someone who has played dating sims and shooters and thinks that Summer Lesson crossed a line.
People who are arguing don't even have experience with this genre and this game, it's like arguing with a Trump supporter who don't even believe in news reports.
People who are arguing don't even have experience with this genre and this game, it's like arguing with a Trump supporter who don't even believe in news reports.
Leafhopper
Banned
I doubt it.
chillybright
Banned
Does not compute.
And besides what are you gonna do? Put him/her in throught prision?
rochellepaws
Member
You're right though it's not exclusively a Japanese issue, many western religious schools impose this as well. It probably makes more sense there with the humid weather, junior school boys will often wear shorts as part of their uniform as well.
But to echo the point, it's a pretty accurate representation of a summer school uniform and not something created to sexualise.
Sephiroth_VII
Member
Here's the thing though: Does this gane make you uncomfortable because you think people might BECOME attracted to younger girls by playing it, or because it might let them live out that fantasy in a harmless way?
Many people are attracted to people younger than themselves, that's just a fact. And if you're going to label adults attracted to teens as pedophiles, you've just labelled a large part of PornHub's user base/the US population as such: http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=884519
If it's the prior, I really want to see some evidence that this is the case.
packy34
Member
The person who was talking about skirt length has absolutely no idea what they're talking about because they weren't on the dev team.
User123456
Member
Thoughts and fantasies are not illegal. This includes pedophile thoughts and fantasies.
ArtHands
Thinks buying more servers can fix a bad patch
"but it is a teaching simulator!"
encephalon
Member
It would probably be less creepy to know people weren't fantasizing about underage girls, yes. I've heard guys here openly talk about thinking of becoming a "committing a crime" as a joke, in regards to high school girls. It is a problem.
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
B-b-b-but, shouldn't we be talking about game violence? Game violence is totes the subject of the thread, please acknowledge my incredibly transparent attempt to deflect from the discussion of the implications of a grooming simulator. /s
Seriously. One thing you can say is that at least the Japanese audience isn't disingenuous as hell when it comes to this shit.
Leafhopper
Banned
People were calling people creeps for playing Tomb Raider 2013. Again, I doubt it.
packy34
Member
Look at any DOAX3 thread. No underage girls in that game, same discussions/judgments of objectification.
I'm not sure which part of these threads are sadder. On one hand we have people who are just itching to find people to condemn as pedos, and on the other hand we actually have people who are trying to argue that it is a totally innocent "teaching simulator".
Pretty much all simulator games involving interacting with a virtual character in personal ways are somewhat creepy. It's not unusual to find it weird or uncomfortable. I don't think there's a need to try and pretend it is not what it is. But going out of the way to try and aggressively condemn people for liking something and being self righteous about it is also stupid. If you're posting a lot on a videogame forum, you're already weird. Have some perspective.
But please, by all means continue to make fun of those actually trying to argue that it is a "teaching simulator" or whatever. Because that's the funniest excuse I've ever heard. That's why this game is so attractive, because people really, really like to teach! Amirite? Lol.
Pretty much all simulator games involving interacting with a virtual character in personal ways are somewhat creepy. It's not unusual to find it weird or uncomfortable. I don't think there's a need to try and pretend it is not what it is. But going out of the way to try and aggressively condemn people for liking something and being self righteous about it is also stupid. If you're posting a lot on a videogame forum, you're already weird. Have some perspective.
But please, by all means continue to make fun of those actually trying to argue that it is a "teaching simulator" or whatever. Because that's the funniest excuse I've ever heard. That's why this game is so attractive, because people really, really like to teach! Amirite? Lol.
forknknife
Banned
Hey, teaching can get your heart racing, math is hard!
Don't u know. Just thinking about girls makes u pervert u know. U must have a totally clean mind. Nothing is allowed.
I don't see the problem calling this game being a fanservice game. But calling those who played the game some kind of monster or pedo is another argument lol.
chillybright
Banned
Yes.
But you see those who do separate are just minding their own business, but those who don't are busying judging the former and trying to cleanse their dirty mind.
sechsterangriff
Member
Like I said. There's no lewdness in it beyond the one you bring with you. It's in VR and you have a lot of freedom to look around. Obviusly the more hardcore creepy otaku crowd would jump at it.
It's fun because right now it's one of the very few VR games that actively tries to portray interactions with a somewhat realistic character and convey a sense of presence and locale. It’s fun watching the way she’s animated and the trigger of awkwardness by the sudden invasion of your personal space.
Please don’t be condescending. I don’t think anyone is defending the game as a “teaching simulator”. It’s just that it’s not anywhere near what other users are trying to imply.
At worst it's some voyeuristic simulador if your fetish goes that way.
Sephiroth_VII
Member
Well, yes. In that case, a very large portion of the world's population is pedo you know? Teen is one of the most searched for terms on PornHub.
Acting upon that instinct is something else entirely, of course, just like you might want to shoot your boss in the head after a long day at work. But you don't. Instead, you go home and play GTA. Well, some people go home and play dating sims. Neither person hurt anyone that day, so why are you so angry at the guy who plays romance games?
Yeah. That's the most head-scratching argument here. Then again, we also have the argument about GTA detracting against violence when it's one of the main selling points/attraction of the games. ¯\_(ツ
_/¯I haven't really seen anyone saying it's completely innocent. They're just saying that it's fairly tame and not outright nefarious like a lot of people are saying/implying.
packy34
Member
Yeah. That's the most head-scratching argument here. Then again, we also have the argument about GTA detracting against violence when it's one of the main selling points/attraction of the games. ¯_(ツ
I'm not sure anyone can realistically argue that GTA detracts violence, but we do know it doesn't cause violence.
Really appreciate this post. You make good points. Particularly about AI.
Imagine a version of this game where if you get caught looking at lewd angles, the girl notices, and reacts negatively. What if you could lose your tutoring job if you creeped her too hard? I think that would at least show the developers have acknowledged the situation that they've created.
That's a good question. I personally think it would be better as it takes away the more serious problem of having the player (potential) ogling a young girl.
It doesn't however, solve the dilemma of non-consent; putting the player in a position that invites them to ogle a character who herself never invites the behaviour.
In NANCY DREW: SHADOW AT THE WATER'S EDGE, Nancy Drew is visiting Japan and is a part-time English tutor. There is a mini-game where you have to correct a student's English homework.
So this is really just a shameless rip off of Nancy Drew. There probably aren't even any ghosts in it.
Yeah. That's the most head-scratching argument here. Then again, we also have the argument about GTA detracting against violence when it's one of the main selling points/attraction of the games. ¯\_(ツ
Right, these are the terrible arguments which say more about the person making it than anything else. If you try to argue that this is a serious teaching sim and nothing else, you are embarrassed about elements of the game and trying to downplay it. If you argue that GTA doesn't encourage rampant killing and that cop system is an actual deterrent, then you are making an intellectually dishonest argument. These threads always end up being shitty because no one is actually interested in discussing a point, they have a position and they want to hammer that position into every reply while distorting reality to fit their argument. It's sad.
cyberheater
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I'm sorry if my tone came across as being angry. I really am not.
I just wish folks would be honest with what it is. That's the statement I said when I entered into this thread.
You say
A romance between an adult and a schoolgirl. That's okay is it?
Crossing Eden
Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
For anyone who needs a reminder the tone of the trailer threads for this game.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1112600
But yea dudes are totes just into the teaching aspect.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1112600
But yea dudes are totes just into the teaching aspect.
User123456
Member
Pretty much this. Humans being violent is a natural fact. It is also illegal and immoral. People refrain from doing it in real life, but usually indulge in simulations of it that don't actually hurt anyone.
Humans being attracted to younger/underage humans is a natural fact. See where I'm going with this?
Humans should be ashamed of/judged upon their actions, not their desires and fantasies.
Debatable. But that's intellectually dishonest.
A fantasy/simulation of a romance between an adult and a schoolgirl? That's absolutely okay.
forknknife
Banned
That game would sell to completely different people though, I'm sure...
packy34
Member
He wasn't saying SL was a romance game. Many, many people have tried to tell you it's not that and you've consistently ignored them. He's arguing that the genre itself isn't inherently harmful.
Of course those are huge exaggerations.
The term that comes to my mind is "voyeurism". Of course there's a thin layer of pedophilia looming over the game since it's a schoolgirl you hang out with, it just cannot be ignored. Doesn't mean anyone who plays the game is a pedo. We would enter much more creepy of grounds if the game character was 10 or something.
YianGaruga
Banned
Plenty of "lewd" games have mechanics like this. Even DOAX3 punishes you when you peek at a girl while she's changing. So that makes it okay all of a sudden?
cyberheater
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I don't understand how it's possible to have a meaningful discussion about this if your position is that it's a 100% innocent teaching simulator with a virtual school girl that looks like that.