Fans are making the Sonic games I want, and that's cool

Holy crap!

Both look amazing, but Sonic Utopia is like a 2D Sonic fan's wet dream. The physics! The physics look perfect. And the level design looks fun as hell.

The Miyamoto quotes posted on the last page are on point here. This is how you design a game the Nintendo way... Mario Galaxy, for example, started as a simple prototype of Mario running around on circular surfaces with gravity.

This is an incredibly elaborate experiment in bringing Sonic's physics into 3D. It looks fun to just run around, and that's exactly what a good 3D platformer should strive for.

I will be THRILLED to get my hands on the demo. I am sure they can turn this into something amazing if they stick with it.
 
My ideal sonic game plays like a mix of Trackmania and SSX, in large interconnected worlds of varying heights and with big open spaces like the first video in the OP.
 
They both look like great prototypes or foundations of what a great 3D Sonic title could be. If you improve the animations, gave Sonic more weight to him so he doesn't look like he's floating as he moves, make it tighter as a whole, increase the level design, enemies and whatever then man, it would be amazing. I'd be down for that. For levels like that? I'd say the final goal needs to be reaching the very "top" of the level. Say you make a huge Green Hill Zone that way. At the very top there's the finish so you have multiple paths to make it there if not different ways to finish the level each with different obstacles, limits, just all sorts of things. Would be great.

A great concept.
 
VichoCardenas said:
THose are really cool little sandboxes experiments with a lot of potential, but personally I need something concrete to do. End-game experiencies please.
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Words out of my mouth. I wanna see one of them straight up design a stage. And fix their cameras, following sonic through a loop is a one-way ticket to motion sickness for many people.
 
BlazeHedgehog said:
I'm just tired of the notion of "open world for open world's sake."
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I don't think anyone is claiming open world for Sonic just cause it's the popular thing. Large open spaces and tracks for Sonic means that the player can turn and maneuver Sonic with an ease that is just not found in any of the 3D games. Not to mention the visibility of the wide open spaces allows the player to react to things much easier than most everything we've been used to since Sonic first went 3D.

I'd love for a big HUB like this where you can just play around a bit and have it connect into smaller Acts that are more linear but with plenty of wide open paths to play around and explore in. Doesn't need to be as open as what is seen here, just open enough that we could actually control Sonic. And I'm coming from the position of a player who earned every emblem/100%'d SADX, SA2B, Heroes, etc. I can play those games and make them look super fluid, super fun and never stop while I trick my way to A rank. But I know all too well the short comings of how those games control with boost pads, auto boosts, loops, narrow paths, etc.

Folks advocating for this don't want to see anymore 3D style concepts that are never consistent. They want to see a 3D style that plays with all of Sonic's 2D sensibilities and physics.

For me the bottom line is that modern 3D Sonic games hold the players hand too much. Auto Boost, zip pads, loops, quick time events... Running through a narrow path never feels like you are in complete control of Sonic. Then when you try to be in control everything just goes to hell. Bigger wider open spaces would alleviate so much of Sonic's 3d problems right now.
 
Utopia looks really good, I played the other one recently and had allot of fun with it as well. I have to say I know I am probably alone in this but I am of the opinion that Lost World was almost the right way to take the series, the game had it's problems but I really enjoyed that title and It only frustrated me in that it was ALMOST the right direction. Sonic in 3d is such a tricky nut to crack.. I just don't know if we will ever have a title that everyone agrees "works".
 
In terms of fan projects, there's also a very, very practical reason why most of the truly completed projects are 2D. 3D takes a lot, LOT more man-hours to get anywhere looking decent, and pretty much the only large scale 3D (well, "3D") fan game from the Sonic fan community that's survived the test of time so-to-speak would be SRB2.

Many 3D projects don't make it too far past the prototyping stage. The amount of work involved first designing, then implementing, then maybe most importantly refining and getting it to look something beyond its original hobbyist trappings, is often way, WAAY beyond what people are willing to put in as a passion project.

Sonic Generations (2011) modding, was probably the largest concentration of a community's effort around a singular framework, but outside of the maiden flagship project (Unleashed Project, which was where the tools were developed, and which largely used existing official assets in a port/reverse engineering of a sorts anyway), and a couple of single levels here and there out of projects that wanted to do a lot more, there weren't really all too many notable completed projects.

Some projects go on hiatus because key people lose interest. Others have key people start working on commercial things and either have no time or no longer have the under-the-radar freedom to mess around with fan works. Others simply disintegrate due to personality clashes.

The disproportionate difference in amount of work between 2D projects and 3D projects means the latter is far more susceptible to collapsing under itself before seeing it through to completion.
 
Falk said:
Sonic Generations (2011) modding, was probably the largest concentration of a community's effort around a singular framework, but outside of the maiden flagship project (Unleashed Project, which was where the tools were developed, and which largely used existing official assets in a port/reverse engineering of a sorts anyway), and a couple of single levels here and there out of projects that wanted to do a lot more, there weren't really all too many notable completed projects.
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The Sonic 2006 Generations mod is pretty much complete.

And there are tooooons of Sonic Robo Blast 2 levels.
 
Falk said:
There are a few others actually.

Although not many originals or assets-from-ground-up ones.

Stuff like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIY511iC_2g
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That's not a full project, though. I mean, it's really impressive, but it's just one zone. It's more of a proof-of-concept demo in the same way many SAGE releases are. Or like Sonic 2 HD was.

They completed their first milestone, yes. But they weren't complete games in the way the 2006 mod, or the Unleashed mod were.

Of course, over all, complete projects in the fan game realm are usually exceedingly rare, 3D or 2D. It's not so much that people have time "completing" them, it's that what could be termed complete is never defined. For example, I'd say Sonic Megamix was essentially completed twice, once on the Genesis and once on the Sega CD. Yet Stealth would have never called either version complete.
 
Yeah, which goes back to my point. Interest generally fizzles out before many projects get anywhere, and 3D is far more susceptible to this than 2D.
 
Krejlooc said:
The Sonic 2006 Generations mod is pretty much complete.

And there are tooooons of Sonic Robo Blast 2 levels.
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Stop
Right
There
Sonic 2006 mod
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It looks cool, but how well do the environments telegraph what's coming up? I can imagine myself failing to react in time to some of these things.
 
First video in OP is really good, with proper level design it could make for an awesome 3D Sonic game that's very faithful to the 2D ones. Second video though just look like another crappy 3D Sonic game!
 
Sonic Utopia is very similar to an idea I had lately about transitioning classic physics into 3d. For instance like in Utopia the homing attack would be more of a homing jump that carries Sonic foward depending on his momentum and positioning. The roll abiliy would work the same, roll down a hill to gain speed. In terms of level design I was thinking a more linear 9 paths gameplay style. As you know you have 3 paths in 2D upper, middle and lower, 3D can expand on that by making upper-left, lower-center etc paths. This way although it is linear it won't feel as much as you will have multiple paths to explore and would keep the style similar to the originals.
 
Mista Koo said:
Utopia looks like Sonic CD intro. But I don't think that's something I want to play?
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It's something I've wanted to play ever since I saw that intro. Looks like the wide open spaces not only match the intro concept but also solve the speed and reaction time problems. Would love to see Sega hire them and deliver this gameplay with Sonic CD's intro artstyle!

sonic_cd_o_by_rigstig-d68mgao.gif


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Battersea Power Station said:
I don't like that "run off a ramp and dash into an enemy" maneuver 3D Sonics have. Back in my day, if Sonic was in free fall and touched an enemy, he lost his rings, damnit.
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It's not clear how rings are lost at all in that trailer since all enemies bumped into destroy them. Great basis for a 3D Sonic though.
 
grap3fruitman said:
Sonic Utopia SAGE page with download.
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Tried it with just the keyboard and had some problems. Hooked up a controller, and things got much MUCH better. Analog speed adjustment makes a huge difference. Learning to control sonic in this is sort of like learning to control a fast car in a driving game. Going all out all the time makes things harder. Adjusting speed dynamically as you go makes it easier. But it takes some skill to move around the environment and make everything look easy, which is kinda cool. You have to learn the timing of dealing with jumps in 3D space at that speed. By the end I was getting around pretty easy, zooming into enemies and enjoying myself.

The level is huge and I kept finding new things and secrets. Physics feel EXACTLY like 2D sonic.

After playing for a while, it reminded me of running around making your own fun in a Tony Hawk game. You can do all kinds of cool stuff, but it takes skill and timing to keep things going smoothly.

This has lots of promise. Give me missions or some sort of goal structure and more levels!
 
If for whatever reason people just want to see unedited gameplay, here's a little under six minutes of raw footage from me, no commentary or anything

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBZgk8gJc6g

Obviously one playthrough of this level is only scratching the surface of the total landmass provided.

I'm surprised at how demanding this game is in spite of its simplistic visuals. You'll notice I'm having some framerate problems in this video at certain points.
 
VeeP said:
Wow. Sonic Utopia looks great.
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Stat Flow said:
Holy f--- at that first [Sonic Utopia]. Like, what? Where did this even come from. There have been plenty of fan demos but this one...holy moly.
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As someone who's admittedly not a huge Sonic fan – I check in on the games every now and then, but the last one I actually played through to completion was Sonic Adventure back in 1999 – that was pretty much my reaction to the Sonic Utopia trailer. It was just staggeringly good. While I'm sure I lack the skill to make the gameplay look/feel as good as in the trailer (plus there's editing, music, nostalgic visuals that no doubt contributed to my positive impression), I will definitely download and play the demo, first chance I get.

Following up on the discussion of design philosophy from earlier, the programmer for Sonic Utopia made made a few additional remarks, in the comments section of the trailer:
Murasaki Fox said:
Part of the level design is to encourage players to find fun and creative ways to get from A to B on their own. On a good run I can get from start to finish in just under two minutes!
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Murasaki Fox said:
A big part of our game's design is to let the player figure out new ways and paths to get from A-to-B, and also to leave potential for A-to-X/Y/Z in the future. I've got my time down to somewhere around 1 minute and 45 seconds on a good run, though I prefer performing acrobatics with the momentum mechanics...
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Murasaki Fox said:
We were thinking of doing Stardust Speedway, but we wanted something more traditional for a proof-of-concept, to contrast with all the other Green Hills out there. The level has been designed with the express intention of demonstrating the value of emergent character physics like the classic games focused on.
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Murasaki Fox said:
We took a bit of creative liberty with scaling in order to help show off the physics. Bit of a numbers-balancing game.
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Murasaki Fox said:
I'm glad all of these concepts were conveyed in the video! We're definitely looking for the sweet spot between an open world and straightforward linearity.
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Murasaki Fox said:
We're not quite sure where we want to take this just yet. We've got a few levels in mind, but we've got a lot more development to do for the gameplay framework.
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Murasaki Fox said:
The physics actually are designed with reality-inspired mechanics in mind. His ability to accelerate is based on realistic pressure and friction, and he's able to generate pressure with his own running in order to stay on walls. The turning mechanics are pretty unrealistic, but they too follow an internal logic based on friction.
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I can see an open world sonic working far better than the open world Mirror's Edge. Just make it huge, wide open and make all manner of avenues to move through it. Its perfecting the mechanics and then building stages around taking advantage of your skills and mastery of the games systems. Design levels with lots to find like the stars in Mario, perhaps giant Gold Rings that of course lead to some bonus stage with its own simple to learn hard to master gameplay or even a few different ones if ambitions were big enough.

Still you could make it less direct or more. Still design the world like the new Zelda game with landmarks in the distance that draw your eye that will take some time to get to and half the game is the journey to get there. Could either make dungeon like areas with bosses and such that are closed off or just trying and make the open world design set up for more linear actions. Either way I think it could be done by a team with a vision and a modest budget. I'd say go for good graphics but nothing too crazy, just make it pop and conducive to the gameplay.

Imagine a secret final stage where if you collect all the chaos emeralds but in fully realized 3D:

latest
 
ScientificPizza said:
I'm still surprised that Sega hasn't tried the sandbox style world of Utopia. After all of their experiments it just seems like a safe bet
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Well, we dont know what project 2017 is.

I really like the second link more than the first. Mechanically are similar but the second has more tight level desing.

Both of them has some insane momentum going on tho. In a normal game, that would break the game easily.

As a proof of concept, both are great.
 
I think the more open levels actually help mitigate some of the issues with Sonic in 3D, in that it gives you more time and space to react to things instead of just memorizing them. On the other hand, it does seem that kind of design makes it more suitable toward exploration/collecting or Tony Hawk style trick/combo stuff, and less the straight up 'racing' of 2D Sonic.
 
Spiral Insanity said:
Why is open world gross to some people?
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Sometimes open world feels like an excuse to have busy work. Climbing towers, collecting feathers, doing races, spending time in transit. A lot of space where you don't have to specifically do anything except zone out with a checklist of bland, repeatable, uninteresting objectives

Having played Utopia, I don't know if I'd consider it open world, though. It's just a really, really big level, but it still has a progression towards an end point.
 
I'm still on the fence with fan work it's this unfortunate crossroads of legality and taking license with someone else's intellectual property :/
 
elohel said:
I'm still on the fence with fan work it's this unfortunate crossroads of legality and taking license with someone else's intellectual property :/
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Sega has officially embraced this kind of stuff, if it makes you feel any better. Back when Nintendo was making headlines for nuking a bunch of fan games, the official Sonic the Hedgehog social account gave the thumbs up for people to make games like this
 
BlazeHedgehog said:
Sometimes open world feels like an excuse to have busy work. Climbing towers, collecting feathers, doing races, spending time in transit. A lot of space where you don't have to specifically do anything except zone out with a checklist of bland, repeatable, uninteresting objectives

Having played Utopia, I don't know if I'd consider it open world, though. It's just a really, really big level, but it still has a progression towards an end point.
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It's so big that in my one playtest I didn't even realize there was an end and just kept going in circles.

I'm not generally in favor of hand-holding, but some sort of visual indicator or mission statement might be useful. Maybe signs with arrows, or radar or something like that.

Running around without any purpose was fun by itself though.
 
Sonic Utopia looks really compelling, albeit rough around the edges (but that's ok, it's a fangame!).

There was sort of an unfulfilled promise made by parts of Sonic Adventure (1), that maybe it was possible to do a wide-open action platformer that let you explore a physics sandbox more than progress through a series of calculated set-pieces. But they did much more of the latter (obviously), and then all notions of 3D Sonic having anything to do with the former died when they made Sonic Adventure 2 and added basically every conceivable feature to that game except for any physics-motivated adventuring.
 
I definitely like Utopia more than Paradise.

Utopia feels really nice to play(and I can't put my finger on why exactly), and I like the classic aesthetic much more. Also the animations are really nice. Unfortunately the only flaw with it is the main draw, the level. I too feel it's too big and directionless. There's no real indication of progress towards the goalpost, other than recognizing landmarks.

Paradise's level is more tightly designed and at least has signs pointing in the right direction. Unfortunately it's held back by it's controls. It feels too quick and loose, I think? It's kinda hard to describe, but it's a problem with all the demos built with the SonicGDK.

All things aside, I'm not sure how I feel about open world Sonic. I feel it can be done, but neither of these examples pull it off. This style could work if it was treated like a playground with multiple goals, like Tony Hawk, or Sonic World from Sonic Jam. I don't think it'd be "main game" material though, more like Chao Garden-esque side games/distractions.

If these playgrounds were a hub world which seamlessly splintered off into more linear, concentrated levels which loop back into the hub, then we might be onto something...
 
Falk said:
In terms of fan projects... 3D takes [a lot] more man-hours to get anywhere looking decent... Many 3D projects don't make it too far past the prototyping stage. The amount of work involved... is often... beyond what people are willing to put in as a passion project... Some projects go on hiatus because key people lose interest. Others have key people start working on commercial things and either have no time or no longer have the under-the-radar freedom to mess around with fan works... difference in amount of work between 2D projects and 3D projects means the latter is far more susceptible to collapsing under itself before seeing it through to completion...
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Krejlooc said:
...Of course, over all, complete projects in the fan game realm are usually exceedingly rare, 3D or 2D...
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On this subject, some noteworthy remarks in the comments section of the Sonic Utopia trailer:
Commenter: This is great and all, but the guy who made this is probably some student in college with finals coming up. It'll probably overwhelm him so much that he'll cancel this. So suck up this trial while you can...
Murasaki Fox: The demo has been released for everyone to play, and we're planning on starting a proper game dev company. This makes my job easy, because all the systems I design will be able to work for our original games and Utopia as well!
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This thread title really buries the lead. I saw the video when a friend linked it and only checked out this thread to see if it was about Utopia.

It should at least mention that it is a 3D sonic game.

That being said, they really captured the feel of Sonic physics and platforming for me. It'd be great to see this kind of work put in to a full fleded game even without the Sonic IP.
 
Tried Utopia. Feels incredible. I think all that's missing gameplay wise are a few additional moves, a la Mario 64. Maybe the ability to run on walls like in Lost World.

Level design obviously is rough in spots, but it's a great start. I love the freedom.
 
TheCongressman1 said:
Tried Utopia. Feels incredible. I think all that's missing gameplay wise are a few additional moves, a la Mario 64. Maybe the ability to run on walls in some way.

Level design obviously is rough in spots, but it's a great start. I love the freedom.
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you can run on walls in Utopia. Check out the trailer.
 
I saw this video about a hidden Labryinth Zone style cave in Utopia and its really neat. Reminds me of uncovering a cave while playing Grow Home.

I like Utopia more than Paradise, but both just feel like newer, flashier versions of 3D Sonic fan demos from over the years that have fun physics but lack the structural hook that ties it all together. Maybe im just being cynical IDK. Like I think theyre neat but some of the praise around them falls really flat to me.
 
Love that first video.

Open world Sonic with rewarding exploration and breakneck speed? Shit. Add a Tony Hawk's like score system so we can style around like a blue bullet.
 
Yep, love it. Especially for me which was never really convinced by the boost mechanic of recent Sonic Game. I love the first but the second video isn't that bad either, not AS good but not bad.

And more than anything : It does something nobody ever tried before in a video game which is exciting.

Now all i want is more verticality but i fear the camera would disagree ah ah.

EDIT : Played the first one, it was good but i can see developers don't really know what to do with dead angle, it seems like the path upstairs are perfectly designed but if you fall, you are in a zone where the only thing you can do is "going back" as opposed to traditionnal Sonic where there were an interesting way to go even here... I also found that having junky rock don't really work well with their camera... Oh well, it was still an amusing experiment.
 
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