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[The Technomancer]

So RockPaperShotgun did a dive on the code in Rimworld and discovered some of the ways in which the relationship system is governed

https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2016/11/02/rimworld-code-analysis/

Returning to Reed, we can see that the pick-up lines don’t get her down. She receives no penalty to her mood for being barraged by come-ons. But the two men, Rob and Boots, feel differently. They have a near-permanent mood and relationship penalty for Reed, because they keep asking her out, and keep getting rebuffed. But it’s not really their fault – Rob and Boots can’t stop hitting on her because they’re men, and because she’s just so gosh-darned pretty. More precisely, that’s how they’ve been programmed.

In other words, female pawns are about eight times less likely to try and start a romantic relationship. Granted, this is not the only factor – other elements include presence or absence of an existing romantic partner, and how they feel about said partner. However, this single check on gender has such a profound effect that it makes female-initiated romance attempts incredibly rare.

There are no straight women in RimWorld, as in, there are no women only attracted to men. Instead, every single non-gay woman in the game has some chance of being attracted to another woman.

Notice that there’s only two possible orientations for men, gay or straight. In RimWorld, there are no bisexual men, only gay or straight men; there are no straight women, only gay or bisexual women.

In RimWorld, male pawns will always find pawns between 20 and their own age attractive. If the male pawn in question is under 20, that doesn’t make a difference – because it’ll check the “lower” bound first, they’re guaranteed to find a 20-year-old attractive. This explains why Rob (age 32) and Boots (age 17) keep trying to ask out Reed (age 23). But, since the same code doesn’t check for relative age, 17-year-old Boots wouldn’t actually find a fellow 17-year-old teenager all that attractive. There’s also a minimum age for attraction, 16 years old, and a maximum age, any pawn 15 years older than themselves. So in this case, Boots wouldn’t find any woman over the age of 32, or any woman under age 16, attractive.

On the other hand, women overwhelmingly prefer partners older than them. And, unlike for men, there’s no firm cutoff for pawns that are “too old”: even pawns 40 years older than the woman in question have a chance of being perceived as attractive. Contrast this to the calculation for men, where pawns 15 years older than them have absolutely no chance.

On top of that, what RimWorld doesn’t model is as important as what it does. Remember how constantly being hit on and rebuffing people doesn’t lead to a mood penalty, only a reduced opinion of the person pursuing? In daily life, the feeling of having to constantly turn people down is not a nice feeling. But these negative feelings are only reflected mechanically for those being rejected, and because of the way romance initiation is handled, you end up having to cater for the sad rejected men, rather than the women who are always having to turn away these unwanted encounters.

We could label that behaviour a bug, perhaps. But those are just the surface symptoms. Those are the easily-noticed, in-game consequences of a system whose base structure has literally encoded assumptions about how men and women operate. Now, representation is a tricky subject, and we will probably never create a perfect model of romantic behaviour.

But the problem with this model isn’t that it’s flawed. It’s that it’s flawed in a way that perfectly mirrors existing sexist expectations of romance, with such specificity that it is hard to view it as unintentional . And if it is unintentional it is on us to ask what this system is trying to show. What are the possibilities that it allows? What is RimWorld setting as the boundaries of possibility?

And the creator jumped into the comments with this gem:

Now, I'm absolutely certain that this thread is going to be filled with "but women pursuing older men is how the real world works!" and "but men initiating more relationships is how the real world works!" I think that's bullshit for myriad reasons but can we at least acknowledge that its fucked up that there are no bisexual men and no straight women?

Damnit. I was considering buying this when it left EA also, but the dev's reaction doesn't particularly instill confidence that they even know why this is a problem

 

[mp1990]

Looking foward to the "but that's how the real world works!!!!!" replies.

 

[The Technomancer]

Accidental dupe threads. Weird. Mods please fix?

 

[Atilac]

Thats the way he programmed the game, it doesn't have to perfectly mirror the real world. Even though I'd love to see the line of code that deals with asian women from toronto who expect their boyfriend to pay for everything when they go out with her friends.

 

[Glass Rebel]

Rimworld

 

[jaypah]

Uh...nah, this system is fucked on a few levels. This is pretty weird.

 

[shandy706]

I chuckled at the title.

 

[Disxo]

"Men are eight times more likely to start a relationship than women"

;_;

 

[ZerOmegaG]

Expected more Rimming.

 

[Vulcano's assistant]

Needs a sugar mommas mod

 

[SolidSnakesMyStepDad]

Hahaha this dev is hilarious. How embarrassing. Great game though. It reminds me I need to go back and play more.

Also TBH it's really weird but it's not like Rimworld is supposed to simulate the real world in any way. If he had some gameplay justification or just programmed it that way it wouldn't be that odd. It's basically only the fact of his stupid statement lol.

 

[WaffleTaco]

Oh my lol does someone not have the basic idea that sexuality is a spectrum? Are we all 13 again and just listen to random bullshit that our friends hear from their older brothers and sisters? I mean seriously how dense can you be to think this in 2016.

 

[John Kowalski]

Thats the way he programmed the game, it doesn't have to perfectly mirror the real world. Even though I'd love to see the line of code that deals with asian women from toronto who expect their boyfriend to pay for everything when they go out with her friends.

Quality ruse.

 

[Trail Guide]

Sometimes I'll start games with only women so I don't have to coddle the men. It's really annoying with a group of 3 people (2 men and 1 woman) and one guy always has a negative mood buffer because he keeps getting rejected by the married woman.

I really enjoy this game but yeah the relationship stuff needs serious work.

 

[SolidSnakesMyStepDad]

Oh my lol does someone not have the basic idea that sexuality is a spectrum? Are we all 13 again and just listen to random bullshit that our friends hear from their older brothers and sisters? I mean seriously how dense can you be to think this in 2016.

Well there is also the line of thinking that sexuality isn't actually defined. That's merely a social label. And to those people seeing sexuality as a spectrum is rather dense.

 

[fabricated backlash]

With a title like Rimworld I expected something different lol.

 

[SaganIsGOAT]

"Every bi man I've ever know has ultimately ended up identifying as gay"

ummmmmmmmm

 

[Complicated]

Jesus Christ some people really just stop developing emotionally in middle school, don't they?

 

[B-B-Bomba!]

Hum ... I think 'no bi men' is an unfortunate oversight. Beyond that, as a vanilla straight white male, I don't perceive enormous issues in the way this has been programmed. He had to create a set of rules for this stuff, and it seems he's done it according to a basic set of assumptions. Probably could have been done better, but the whole game is WIP. I think the community could challenge the rules he's set up, but as I said, while limited by my own point of view, I don't see cause for being exactly offended ...

A lot depends, I think, on his willingness to learn and implement changes. I hope he comes through on that score. The game is fantastic.

 

[Salarians]

yikes

 

[ShyMel]

"Pawn with disabilities will always be found less attractive."
Well gee, that's another horrible stereotype.

 

[The Technomancer]

(crosspost)

Pretty odd there are no straight women, but I think OP is kinda reaching for the amount of anger that should be directed in the developers direction because someone dug into his games romance system.

I don't know if I'm particularly angry so much as frustrated and quite unhappy with the dev's reactio-

And then his questionable comments made me dig an inch deeper and yep, he's opposed to #BLM and bingo... he's a Gamergator too. FFS.

Oh wait now I might actually be angry. Wait what?

 

[TissueBox]

Creating a sexuality system in a game on that scale would be complicated I imagine, and attaching a numerical system to any kind of orientation-based relationship framework will nearly always feel like reducing human nature to binary probability games. So with everything said and done as of right now with this game, I can't help but give the dev props for putting in the amount of work he has.

Still, that aside...no bi men?! Pfff

 

[UpUpDownDown]

What in the fuck am I reading???


...reads more..

 

[Lagamorph]

Creating a sexuality system in a game on that scale would be complicated I imagine, and attaching a numerical system to any kind of orientation-based relationship framework will nearly always feel like reducing human nature to binary probability games. So with everything said and done as of right now with this game, I can't help but give the dev props for putting in the amount of work he has.

Still, that aside...no bi men?! Pfff

Complicated yes, and if they'd just said "Everyone is either gay or straight because we couldn't figure out how to implement anything else" then I'd understand that. But the fact they have got systems in place for bisexual pawns means they have the mechanics figured out and in place. They've instead made a conscious and baffling decision to only apply those mechanics to female pawns though. That's not due to a limit of it being too complicated, that's something they've actively chosen to do.

 

[Laiza]

Yikes. This guy does not seem to be anywhere close to up-to-date on these matters. Not terribly surprising considering the other things he apparently gets up to...

Well there is also the line of thinking that sexuality isn't actually defined. That's merely a social label. And to those people seeing sexuality as a spectrum is rather dense.

I really like this take.

Like, even if I'm attracted to men, the range of men who I'm interested in is very narrow, and I may also be open to women who fit certain parameters.

There's an interesting article covering this in Cosmopolitan. Examining the whole thing, it's hard not to feel like it's all just a game and that people are unnecessarily boxing themselves in when, really, they're just after a certain something and that certain something may or may not be related to the person's gender at all.

 

[PBY]

Complicated yes, and if they'd just said "Everyone is either gay or straight because we couldn't figure out how to implement anything else" then I'd understand that. But the fact they have got systems in place for bisexual pawns means they have the mechanics figured out and in place. They've instead made a conscious and baffling decision to only apply those mechanics to female pawns though. That's not due to a limit of it being too complicated, that's something they've actively chosen to do.

Yeah, seems like they actually overcomplicated it by having this bifurcated system.

 

[Spirit of Jazz]

He had to create a set of rules for this stuff, and it seems he's done it according to a basic set of assumptions.

The issue is that he chose to program a basic set of assumptions that are horribly sexist and prejudice against people with disabilities. He's fine to program whatever the fuck he wants, but I'm pretty unhappy I supported a product with these mechanics.

 

[aspiegamer]

Could certainly have written all of this off as "goofy formulae that were adjusted repeatedly in order to get a model the developers were comfortable with" since you occasionally have to do odd things to get specific desired results.

Then the response from the creator. Oh dear. The issues were indeed tweaked to get a specific result, but sadly it's a horribly ignorant one. "No straight women" sounds like a fantasy of a 15-year-old boy who only frequents a few specific porn categories that has applied it to real life.

 

[Harlequin]

Copying my post over from the other thread.

Now, I'm absolutely certain that this thread is going to be filled with "but women pursuing older men is how the real world works!" and "but men initiating more relationships is how the real world works!" I think that's bullshit for myriad reasons

I agree that a lot of the stuff mentioned is indeed bullshit (like the age limits or the whole sexual orientation stuff) but I do think that the whole "men are more likely to actively pursue a potential mate than women"-thing is accurate in our current society simply because of all the data that's been collected by dating apps. I don't remember the specific numbers (so the ratio this game is using may well be wrong) but I have read articles (being a gay guy, I wouldn't actually have any real-life experience of this phenomenon) detailing how men are generally much more likely to message a woman (and thus message much more women) than the other way around. So I'm inclined to say that that's one of the few things this whole dating algorithm got "right" (if the goal was to accurately portray the current dating behaviour in Western society, anyway).

The guy's comment sounds somewhat nonsensical, though. It's quite the leap to go from "I feel like there are more bisexual women than bisexual men" to "I didn't include any straight women or bisexual men in my game" especially when it sounds like that wouldn't have been a difficult thing to do in terms of implementation. I mean, by that logic, why include any diversity at all? Gay men and women are much rarer than straight men and women (or straight men and bisexual women, going by this guy's logic) so why include them? (EDIT: Though it is nice that he did include LGB characters (from the article it doesn't seem like there are transgender characters so I left out the T on purpose there), even if straight/bisexual women and bisexual men are being misrepresented, and it doesn't seem like he was trying to be intentionally hurtful or like he's homophobic(/biphobic? Is that a word?), he just doesn't know any better. So yeah, personally, I think it's better than nothing even if it's not ideal. Now, some of the behavioural differences between female and male characters... that may be a different story.)

(EDIT2: Ah, I only read the excerpt of his comment in the OP. From some of the other quotes in this thread, he comes off as quite a bit more... let's call it unreasonable than I had thought.)

Having in-depth mechanics simulating attraction and sexuality is really cool and interesting, but using them to reinforce stereotypes and deny the existence of bi men and straight women is not.

Agreed. The basic concept is quite interesting and feels like it could even be used as almost a bit of a virtual social experiment. Hell, even using stereotypes it could be quite interesting, if the stereotypes were being used ironically but that doesn't seem to be the case here.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

This reads like a parody of a life simulator. I love how he tries to explain his prejudice by implying his game is deeper than it really is.

 

[PSqueak]

So, if i understood correctly, he created a system where men who are constantly rejected have to be catered to in game because otherwise the negative impact of these men who fling unwanted advances at women basically makes it harder for you to progress?

Like, literally not coddling these people in game will impact your enjoyment of the game?

 

[hampig]

I can see this being him trying to make male and females distinct, as well as trying to make the game naturally have some sort of conflict stemming from the genders.

Maybe he meant more from it or not, I don't know. It just reads as game logic to me though.

 

[The Technomancer]

So, if i understood correctly, he created a system where men who are constantly rejected have to be catered to in game because otherwise the negative impact of these men who fling unwanted advances at women basically makes it harder for you to progress?

Like, literally not coddling these people in game will impact your enjoyment of the game?

Its a crash-landed space colony simulator. So you've got colonists on a planet and you need to help them build shelter, fend off raiders, manage hunger, go hunting, keep them happy etc. Dwarf Fortress-like basically. So yeah, happiness is one of the things you want to manage so they don't get unproductive or whatever negative side effects he built into this thing

 

[Par Score]

(Copying this over too)

The way the game handles these mechanics currently is bad, and it's perfectly valid to criticise it in it's current state, but I wouldn't have a big problem with it if the dev came out and said "hey, it's Early Access, this was just a kludge and we're working on something better".

It would have been so easy. It's like, PR 101, a freethrow, an open goal. Swish.

But nope! The guy comes out fists flying with bi-erasure and dumb bullshit justifications that make me wish I'd never bought this game.

And then his questionable comments made me dig an inch deeper and yep, he's opposed to #BLM and bingo... he's a Gamergator too. FFS.

Oh wait now I might actually be angry. Wait what?

Linked above, but, yeah.

 

[Laiza]

transgendered

Minor quibble: I'd prefer you use "transgender" as "transgendered" makes it sound like an affliction that is beset upon me rather than a trait of my person. Otherwise, using it as an adjective is correct (whereas "a transgender" is not).

Just a suggestion so you don't ruffle any feathers among the trans community.

 

[MacGurcules]

Fascinating.

I completely support this from a design perspective just for the tension and stories it tends to generate.

I even kind of dig it as a form of satire and subtle indirect commentary on gender stereotypes.

But then the comments from the developer come along and erase a lot of that. I guess it could still be some hard-as-nails satire, but it's a lot harder for me to see it that way. I do recommend checking the article and reading the developer's full commentary. It doesn't really reverse the what's said in OP's excerpt, but it's at least somewhat more measured.

 

[aeolist]

the sad thing is i wouldn't have even thought about this developer's particular politics if he hadn't jumped in to make this loudly and offensively about himself. to me the article is a interesting example of how small personal biases can make important functional differences in game systems that made me think about how other games might be doing the same thing.

then sylvester burst through the wall with his shitty prejudices that are naturally justified by cherry-picked pseudoscience and i just want to drink heavily.

 

[wrowa]

You gotta appreciate his totally valid, purely anecdotal research. I know some people!

It's always funny.

 

[banefirelord]

oh goddammit this game is too good to deserve an asshat lead dev

EDIT: aw fuck why does he have to be a Gamergater too this was literally my game of the year until five minutes ago

 

[aeolist]

lol he wouldn't do the RPS interview unless he had full editorial control but he's done multiple breitbart interviews

i'm done

 

[Aaron D.]

this was literally my game of the year until five minutes ago

Still my GOTY, tied with Stephen's Sausage Roll.

I try to separate the art from the artist.

 

[GLAMr]

Examining the whole thing, it's hard not to feel like it's all just a game and that people are unnecessarily boxing themselves in when, really, they're just after a certain something and that certain something may or may not be related to the person's gender at all.

This is quite possibly the most beautiful thing I have ever read on the internet.

 

[Par Score]

lol he wouldn't do the RPS interview unless he had full editorial control but he's done multiple breitbart interviews

i'm done

Oh damn it. Why is the hole always deeper :c

 

[Cartman86]

lol he wouldn't do the RPS interview unless he had full editorial control but he's done multiple breitbart interviews

i'm done

and there we go!

 

[Pai Pai Master]

why is it so hard for some people to accept male bisexuality? it's personally quite infuriating.

i've had so many people tell me i don't actually exist and i'm just a gay man trying to hide from the truth. this shit doesn't help.

 

[KelpPlankton]

holy shit this is a bad system

bi men exist! jesus fucking christ we exist, we exist

 

[banefirelord]

Still my GOTY, tied with Stephen's Sausage Roll.

I try to separate the art from the artist.

Generally, yeah, but in this case I specifically went out of my way to buy it directly from the dev since it was such a small team to avoid Steam getting a cut so it feels particularly icky.

 

[WaffleTaco]

Well there is also the line of thinking that sexuality isn't actually defined. That's merely a social label. And to those people seeing sexuality as a spectrum is rather dense.

Sexuality is a spectrum though...and it is defined for the most part. Most things in life are a spectrum.

 

[PBY]

lol he wouldn't do the RPS interview unless he had full editorial control but he's done multiple breitbart interviews

i'm done

Welp