curiouscharles
Member
pretty sure most people TRIED to pick Bernie.
Bernie would have swept this fucking turd under the rug...
oh, what could have been...
Clinton aides blame loss on FBI, media, sexism, Bernie, everything but themselves
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pretty sure most people TRIED to pick Bernie.
Bernie would have swept this fucking turd under the rug...
oh, what could have been...
I agree. But the takeaway has to be on what you could have done differently. Uncontrolled factors are just that, uncontrolled. It's not like there isn't a well of unforced errors that can at least be identified by the brass.
Primethius
Banned
Pretty sure most people didn't given that he lost the primaries pretty damn handily.
IrishNinja
Member
so she should've coddled them a bit more, said even less on race? you're thinking what, that wouldve either
a) brought some of the diehard trump voters over somehow
b) empowered more minorities to back her, when she wouldn't even say word one on the matter?
nah, that's still a losing strategy. and any talk of not pointing out non-dog whistle, but open ended bigotry, for hopes of unifying/etc? miss me with that, too.
thank you
Damerman
Member
Why are we acting like the 6 million who didnt show up are not democrat working class whites inside of the rust belt?
People are conflating a state flipping red with voters flipping red. all it takes for a state to flip red is for rep voters to turn out the same number but the dem voters to turn out less.
This idea that center left angered working class whites into voting for trump is utter horse shit. Angry working class democrats simply didnt turn out...
depths20XX
Member
I'm so sorry that you rested on your laurels and thought you simply deserved to win the election, Hillary. Unfortunately that's not how it works and will ever work. You failed your party and were unable to defeat a child like Trump. You felt entitled to win and neglected key demographics and you reap what you sow.
Team Alucard
Banned
It was "her time" in 2008 as well. Don't forget that the entire party sans Harry Reid and Ted Kennedy were behind her back then as well.
She is just a really bad candidate.
IrishNinja
Member
Damerman
Member
This is utter bullshit. I have no problem saying that a vote for trump is a racist sexist and xenophobic act.
Agreed.
I was a Hillary-stan. I was so wrong on every level. The arrogance displayed on that conference call really highlights the reasons they lost.
He lost the primary. It wasn't particularly close.
EatinOlives
Member
Ignoring the way that the media acquired polling data and interpreted it is absolutely missing the key factor in why they lost the election. And please, let's not pretend that Trump did not foment this ire from people, nor that the people as described in the thread I linked were not empowered by his rhetoric.
Less people voted for Trump than they did for Romney. You don't need those votes to win and never had. But you needed get-out-the-vote efforts in states that needed it. And how do you find out which states need it? You guessed it, polling data. If the polling data is wrong, you don't know where to direct your resources, and you start thinking the battleground states are places like Nevada when instead you should've been looking at Wisconsin. Running for office with bogus polling data is trying to drive the Daytona 500 while blindfolded. You simply can't do it. That the campaign didn't coddle racists will not have taken that blindfold off.
Spiral Insanity
Banned
That will help. Why are people acting like she is the devil? I still don't get it. Look at our next president/white house staff.
depths20XX
Member
He won swing states and inspired people that she never did.
Puck Beaverton
Banned
Statements like Bernie sweeping Trump are disingenuous.
However moderate repubs hate him less than Clinton, and they voted for trump because of some weird distaste of clinton
the benghazi and email stuff they've been pushing didn't help
However moderate repubs hate him less than Clinton, and they voted for trump because of some weird distaste of clinton
the benghazi and email stuff they've been pushing didn't help
Septimus Prime
Member
I asked my Trump-voting colleague what he thought about Tim Kaine. "I don't even know who he is." On this we agree.
Primethius
Banned
And still lost the primary by a hefty amount. Hence, most people didn't try to pick him.
Puck Beaverton
Banned
dawg she fucking lost to trump
it is fucking baffling how she fucking stumbled going up against fucking trump
Don't take this as confrontational, I'm seriously asking. What the fuck did anybody see in Tim Kaine? He was everything people didn't like about her with a penis.
Damerman
Member
Trump didnt run away with republican delegates either.
Puck Beaverton
Banned
pretty sure nobody was excited for kaine
pretty much just a shrug
pretty much just a shrug
CrispyBoar
Banned
He lost the primaries though, which was sad.
They could've picked a smarter, fearless candidate who's a excellent debater, has a lot of charisma & not afraid to take on Trump who's like Obama & a potential candidate for vice president who has a spine. But no, they had to pick both Hillary Clinton & Tim Kaine.
depths20XX
Member
Doesn't really matter when he appealed to the people that we needed to win the election. Hillary was the chosen one though and she lost to a joke.
Bernie's strength relied on independents which couldn't vote in most of the primaries.
The super-delegates mostly siding with Hillary also depressed Bernie support turnout.
EatinOlives
Member
He was so inspiring that he lost by millions against a milquetoast, boring establishment candidate? You're not making any sense.
This blind idolatry of Bernie is a coping mechanism, I get it. But let's not pretend like this thought experiment is a viable alternative. You have no idea how Trump was gonna run against Bernie because it never happened. On day 1 of the general he could've painted Bernie as a pinko commie and it could've been even more disastrous for Bernie.
Spyder_Monkey
Banned
Compared to Pence, Kaine was like an angel.
Puck Beaverton
Banned
To clarify a bit more
Putting the blame on someone makes me and others feel better. Telling ourselves "we could have prevented this if we didn't choose this person"
Putting the blame on someone makes me and others feel better. Telling ourselves "we could have prevented this if we didn't choose this person"
KO Traveling Hobo
Member
This.
It can't be stated enough that Trump won with less votes than Romney lost. The GOP set the presidency up on a tee for Clinton, and she tried to bunt.
Primethius
Banned
Because Dems didn't show up to vote? And I agree the campaign is to blame, but let's not pretend the other factors listed weren't problematic this election. The media in particular was pretty damn bad.
SenorArdilla
Member
Perhaps they should have taken a hint and looked into why he did so well in the Rust Belt. But they didn't.
Speaking as a white millennial, I know that everyone in my circle is at least somewhat distressed by this. But given that the biggest point of differentiation between Trump and Hillary supporters was highest attained education, that's obviously not a representative sample.
I think it came down to this: Most of millennials have never been on the losing side of an election before. As a consequence, I don't think they really felt like there was a chance Trump could win – and not unjustifiably. Clinton consistently led Trump in the polls, beat him in every debate, and was just generally obviously more capable. If the election was decided on merit, there's no doubt who would've won.
But more importantly, I think those feelings of security were amplified by the power of social media. When some of the most prestigious news institutions are regularly running stories about Trump's various scandals and inadequacies that are then fed to you by your friends and targeted news, you start to take it for granted. It became Hillary's election to lose, because she was so obviously the better candidate – and, thanks to the echo chamber of Facebook, you know everyone agrees.
Trump benefitted from the same phenomenon, but inverted. Being fed news about how corrupt and dangerous Hillary was by Drudge or Reddit, and mobilized to action by the collective anger at the liberal media for trying to keep your guy down, and liberals more generally for acting so smart and thinking they're so much better than you. That's what happened here.
Primethius
Banned
Okay, so basically your assuming that Bernie would have gotten all of the Hillary minority turnout plus his own brand of supporters.
No sir, nothing wrong with that logic at all. Absolutely nothing.
depths20XX
Member
Nah, you're delusional. He got more votes in the swing states she lost. How do you not think that is an advantage? He appealed to anti-establishment voters, something that has been a huge part in Trump winning. You're the one not making any sense here.
Nope. He's jewish. He wouldn't stand a chance with whites putside of urban centers according to my american jewish friends.
Plus he did terribly with minorities, if I recall correctly.
oneofthose
Banned
i don't know why media is being blamed when they were constantly burying tramp and how he was unfit to be president everyday.
freenudemacusers
Member
hillary for 2020!
TDLink
Member
If the Comey statement/re-focus on the e-mails by the media didn't happen right before the election then it very well may have been a narrow win instead of a narrow loss, but that's the whole point. Against Trump it should have been a landslide.
The party really needs to look at themselves and realize they were too arrogant and smug about the entire thing. There was definitely an air that it was all wrapped up and that Trump was a joke. Sure all the polls indicated that too, but this is a big example that you can never just be complacent and count your chickens. Stuff like the venue for the election night speech and the reported multi-million fireworks display didn't help that image. It was pure cockiness and that does not resonate with a lot of people.
Beyond that, the VP pick was simply not good. Tim Kaine is a generic body to fill the spot of VP. No one had any sort of sense of him whatsoever. Even his home state was narrowly won, which should have been a surefire lock and part of the reason he was picked. Almost any other pick would have been better.
The party really needs to look at themselves and realize they were too arrogant and smug about the entire thing. There was definitely an air that it was all wrapped up and that Trump was a joke. Sure all the polls indicated that too, but this is a big example that you can never just be complacent and count your chickens. Stuff like the venue for the election night speech and the reported multi-million fireworks display didn't help that image. It was pure cockiness and that does not resonate with a lot of people.
Beyond that, the VP pick was simply not good. Tim Kaine is a generic body to fill the spot of VP. No one had any sort of sense of him whatsoever. Even his home state was narrowly won, which should have been a surefire lock and part of the reason he was picked. Almost any other pick would have been better.
I'm saying I'm not convinced that Trump won on the backs of some surge of previously dormant angry working class voters. There was higher turnout in some rural counties, but overall he had roughly the same turnout as McCain and Romney had in 2008 and 2012, respectively. I obviously can't generalize here, but it seems like they weren't some kind of untapped wellspring of voters that really pushed him over the edge. The fault for Hillary's loss lies squarely on Democrats for not turning out.
I think more specifically, I was saying Hillary didn't underestimate the anger of these individuals as some kind of major force in securing Trump's win. In the end, voter turnout for Trump was exactly where you'd expect it to be based on 2008 and 2012 – even a little lower than that.
SenorArdilla
Member
You don't recover from blowing the easiest win in your lifetime to a racist orange.
I totally agree that he kinda kneecapped himself by not really thinking he could win until too late in the game. But we also have to remember he didn't really have the money for many of those early months until people began to hop on board in droves later.
She's got that loser stench all over her now. I guess knowing that Hilary won't get the prize she coveted her whole life is a silver lining in all this.
Damned shame it had to be Trump though. Would have preferred somebody with some dignity.
You know what? People can blame Clinton's campaign, the DNC, Bernie, millennials, white women, rural working class whites, whoever.
You know who's fault it is? People who fucking voted for Trump.
Don't give me some bullshit about how your needs were ignored, or how you weren't energized. People were presented a choice between the most openly racist, misogynistic, close minded and ill prepared candidate for president in the history of our country, and one who wasn't. And, when and where it mattered, they voted for the worse candidate.
Don't tell me how white voters feel marginalized and threatened. How they expect the fucking poster child of New York elitism to care about the working man. You don't want to labeled as bigots? Don't vote for the bigot.
You know who's fault it is? People who fucking voted for Trump.
Don't give me some bullshit about how your needs were ignored, or how you weren't energized. People were presented a choice between the most openly racist, misogynistic, close minded and ill prepared candidate for president in the history of our country, and one who wasn't. And, when and where it mattered, they voted for the worse candidate.
Don't tell me how white voters feel marginalized and threatened. How they expect the fucking poster child of New York elitism to care about the working man. You don't want to labeled as bigots? Don't vote for the bigot.
depths20XX
Member
What are you even talking about here? You're saying every dem would have turned against Bernie if he won the primary? Why? I'm sure those hardcore Hillary supporters would have went straight to Trump, yeah that makes more sense lol/
Could Clinton have run a better campaign? No doubt.
But imagine, for a second, that she had run her campaign like Donald Trump.
Imagine if she had showed up to all three debates unprepared, rambling, and quick to anger.
Imagine if she had a video where she talked about how she can molest women because of her celebrity status.
Imagine if she flip flopped on almost every policy position, frequently contradicting Tim Kaine.
Imagine if she had a 3 AM meltdown on twitter, followed by reports that she had to have her twitter taken away from her.
Imagine if she went through three campaign chairs, and if Huma's name was found in a book of illicit Russian payments.
Imagine if she hadn't released a single year of tax returns.
Clinton's campaign could have done better, but they did better than Trump's campaign by pretty much every possible metric. They lost rural whites hard, but even Trump's campaign didn't have that data; they expected to lose.
Let's face it: she could have done better, but the deck was stacked against her to begin with. If the campaign's quality was the only thing that mattered, then she would have won.
But imagine, for a second, that she had run her campaign like Donald Trump.
Imagine if she had showed up to all three debates unprepared, rambling, and quick to anger.
Imagine if she had a video where she talked about how she can molest women because of her celebrity status.
Imagine if she flip flopped on almost every policy position, frequently contradicting Tim Kaine.
Imagine if she had a 3 AM meltdown on twitter, followed by reports that she had to have her twitter taken away from her.
Imagine if she went through three campaign chairs, and if Huma's name was found in a book of illicit Russian payments.
Imagine if she hadn't released a single year of tax returns.
Clinton's campaign could have done better, but they did better than Trump's campaign by pretty much every possible metric. They lost rural whites hard, but even Trump's campaign didn't have that data; they expected to lose.
Let's face it: she could have done better, but the deck was stacked against her to begin with. If the campaign's quality was the only thing that mattered, then she would have won.
Spyder_Monkey
Banned
There were a lot of problems with Bernie, his lack of foreign policy experience, he didn't do well with minorities, he had a very idealistic but unrealistic platform (keep in mind he said he didn't know how to break up the banks, something crucial to his campaign). You also assume that Bernie being the nom would mean he would win the swing states Clinton lost, we don't know. Fact of the matter is Bernie got a lot of young people fired up but those young people didn't know how politics works. So when he lost the young people stayed home. And there was nothing Clinton was going to do about it. The good thing about Bernie is that the democrats now have a plan to win blue-collared working class that have typically voted Red since Reagan. 2020 they'll run someone like Bernie.
I really, really hope that liberals don't lose sight of this because the ultimate story of Hilary's career is in part a tragic tale of an ambitious, well-intentioned woman thats personal political brand was constantly toxified at every stop because of America's still present sexism and continual, unfair double-binds toward Hillary the woman.
Hillary and her team lost this election, but America's lesser qualities bear a lot of responsibility for the toxification of her brand over the years.
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