I even got a (new) tag!
Nobody actually cared about Hillary's emails. Just a bunch of nothingburgers. Won't matter at all.
HillaryGAF is so wise.
Clinton aides blame loss on FBI, media, sexism, Bernie, everything but themselves
- Thread starter chubigans
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I even got a (new) tag!
Nobody actually cared about Hillary's emails. Just a bunch of nothingburgers. Won't matter at all.
HillaryGAF is so wise.
We were told by the DNC fanboys to shut up and wait till she got elected before being allowed to criticize her and she fucking lost. She fucking lost.
He was talking a whole lot about the election being rigged and refusing to accept the result. That speaks volumes more than some campaign spokesperson talking about their confidence levels.
Maybe I'm wrong and he did have better data. I don't think that changes my arguments or point, though.
And, for the record, I (and many others) find Hillary a million times more inspiring and charismatic than Trump. Lots of people loathe the idea of even being in the same room as Trump. The root cause of the different perceptions of the candidates is way more complicated than just one having charisma and the other not having it.
old manatee
Banned
I've heard it all, so do people seriously think older minorities would have turned out in smaller numbers for Sanders... the base .. the most loyal democrats... would have voted for Trump because of reasons?
Through out the primary we were told young people don't matter... the base likes Clinton... the base is now at risk due to Clinton... the base wasn't protected by the super delegates when it became clear she was a weak candidate. The super delegates could have taken away their support and had CA vote and decide which way they pledge based on the last primaries instead they announced her win before Cali had even finished voting.
Personally I think that's the real betrayal because Dems are competitive because of big states like Cali and NY allow them to make none of the decisions in actually selecting the president elect. Those big states push the liberal agenda yet have none of the actual leadership in selecting the candidate and that's a bummer. Perhaps all those voters afraid of their local republican nuts want a little organization, leadership and help from the their fellow democrats but right now all they see is "hey instead of living with those racists in the middle why don't you move over here", "you guys should care about climate change more!" because the majority of democrats appears have no idea what being in the Middle of the country is since the majority live on the opposite site of the Ocean and are generally apathetic towards the election because of the EC.
Trump btw didn't have a single major Union endorsement and won the Rust Belt - let that sink in
Through out the primary we were told young people don't matter... the base likes Clinton... the base is now at risk due to Clinton... the base wasn't protected by the super delegates when it became clear she was a weak candidate. The super delegates could have taken away their support and had CA vote and decide which way they pledge based on the last primaries instead they announced her win before Cali had even finished voting.
Personally I think that's the real betrayal because Dems are competitive because of big states like Cali and NY allow them to make none of the decisions in actually selecting the president elect. Those big states push the liberal agenda yet have none of the actual leadership in selecting the candidate and that's a bummer. Perhaps all those voters afraid of their local republican nuts want a little organization, leadership and help from the their fellow democrats but right now all they see is "hey instead of living with those racists in the middle why don't you move over here", "you guys should care about climate change more!" because the majority of democrats appears have no idea what being in the Middle of the country is since the majority live on the opposite site of the Ocean and are generally apathetic towards the election because of the EC.
Trump btw didn't have a single major Union endorsement and won the Rust Belt - let that sink in
depths20XX
Member
Obama won on the slogan of "hope and change" and people loved it. Hillary rested on "I'm qualified and it's my time". No clue how she lost.
Trump appealed to the same idea of change and won. Bernie did as well but then his supporters, both moderate and liberal, were vilified. It's no wonder the voter turnout was fucking terrible.
Trump appealed to the same idea of change and won. Bernie did as well but then his supporters, both moderate and liberal, were vilified. It's no wonder the voter turnout was fucking terrible.
Puck Beaverton
Banned
they're supporting the platform because it suits them. I imagine there are a fair amount of people who are not racist but legit do not give a fuck about what happens to minorities if it means they're good. Of course that isn't right, and I do believe they should be called out. I'm just saying they will have to change within themselves because you will not convince them. Call them out on it and shame them if you want, but I doubt they change their minds.
I also don't how see you run the angle more. We have clearly shown shaming people does nothing because they will hide and wait
T
thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
When she lost what should have been one of the easiest elections Democrats ever had despite the fact that the main argument for the primary and all other democrats clearing the way for her was her supposed electability.
Puck Beaverton
Banned
this was another mistake because as much of a non-issue as it was, it was hammered so much people believed it
had a friend tell me, completley ignorant of politics, that she should be in jail for her emails. dude had no fucking clue what it was even about, he was just told that it was bad. Same with benghazi.
Regulus Tera
Romanes Eunt Domus
She attacked the voters, not the candidate, with the deplorables comment. However right she was in her assertion that such people are disgusting filthy fucks, she made a mistake because she needed some of those white voters to vote for her. Minorities are not at the point where they can win elections by themselves.
If you watched the video, he argued it was Clinton's dismissal of people like Bernie at first that played a role in apathy.
Yes, she was leading and even winning, but it took her a while and perhaps took her too long to realize she needed that base.
Think about how during one of the debates, she actually tried to powerbomb Bernie with the fact other countries do things better than America. She didn't want to even concede to that fact, which many Americans, and especially Bernie supporters, believe.
She absorbed his platform, views, and values far too late when he was just considered the kook in the corner. The no-chance-in-hell candidate. But she sure as shit didn't absorb the population he tapped into.
They voted for Trump.
IrishNinja
Member
right, i get that - i'm saying i think being stronger on these things might've energized the left a bit, rather than the narrative that it pushed racists away & somehow played a significant factor in her loss.
likewise, i think it's weird to say given the number of bernie supporters in this thread - he absolutely didn't stay silent on the issue, and i can't imagine that would've dhanged had he won the nom.
and if he did double-down and called out said bigotry for what it is - even if he likewise lost to trump - i like to think we've celebrated that part, at least.
i respect the distinction, i just don't see the persecution complex group that ran with that (while naturally ignoring the litany of far worse being lobbed her way) as coming over or doing any self-reflection on their own anytime soon.
i think it was one of her stronger moments - pretending the alt-right building him up wasn't a thing & not even acknowledging them out of some latent fear of stepping on any toes strikes me as far weaker.
Why are you still shitposting? She lost, you got what you wanted. Move on with your life.
The more and more we hear about Clinton and her campaign, the more I'm convinced she was the Democrat's "Mitt Romney."
The arrogance
The tone deafness
The "hot mic" moment of getting caught insulting the public
The image of being a rich establishment elite that's out-of-touch with the middle class
In hindsight, it is amazing how much Hilary and Mitt are similar.
The arrogance
The tone deafness
The "hot mic" moment of getting caught insulting the public
The image of being a rich establishment elite that's out-of-touch with the middle class
In hindsight, it is amazing how much Hilary and Mitt are similar.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
Since when have elections been about selling voters on simple truth?
Messaging. It's part of the process.
Puck Beaverton
Banned
maybe. I don't know how the vet family comments and pussy grabbing doesn't energize liberals more. I saw plenty of those ads here in fucking Kansas of all places. The sexist stuff he said should have been enough.
old manatee
Banned
WTF does this have to do with anything? Do you think Bernie lost the primary because people thought he wasn't involved in her failed healthcare plan?
The quote you complaining about is claiming that the long drawn out primary served to poison Hillary to some Democrats who otherwise would have been enthusiastic about her. I think that's at least somewhat true. i.e. I'm shocked how many democrats I saw calling her corrupt and "they're both the same". But the loss is on her. She just didn't motivate people. She should have been running and acting on worst-case-scenario polling models rather than best-case ones. She got complacent. She didn't run on a platform beyond "I'm a girl!". etc. etc. etc. They made big dumb mistakes.
Puck Beaverton
Banned
also this
perception is reality. the truth only gets you so far. Hammer away and you will convince people. Doesn't help when Hilary has zero charisma, so she can barely defend herself being called a liar politician who will sell you out
IrishNinja
Member
did i sleep through her 47% speech
strongly agreed, i think we all thought it would've been...lotta ugly lessons learned this week
nothing really, it was a huge irrelevant footnote at best but dude was clearly saving it for this moment
Because people, all in all, don't want a candidate to vote against.
They want one they're excited to vote for.
Puck Beaverton
Banned
maybe
doesn't help that I dislike everything about politics, so I always look at it as voting against someone instead of being excited
Tom Nook Sawyer
Member
Wasn't that basically " basket of deplorables"?
KO Traveling Hobo
Member
My bad. Point conceded.
There's not much point in comparing Hillary's charisma to Trump's. A better comparison is Hillary to Obama. The magnetism is night and day.
The only good thing to come out of this shit, is that the next liberal running for President won't have 20 years of the Right smearing them to tote along with them. That shit had a devastating effect. The shit I hear about Hillary out of mouths of these young folks in their mid to early 20's is fucking outrageous. They are legit convinced the woman is satan incarnate. And now that she has lost a Presidential race (something that happens every 4 fucking years, but whatever) they feel its proof that she is indeed the worst thing ever. Its reaaaaallly sad.
The media proved they will always equalize too. Its never been put to the test with a lunatic as wild as Trump. But they even managed to make it seem like he was her political equal.
Its been amazing to fucking watch. And its going to be a blueprint for the future. The right sure as hell isn't going to lurch back towards the center. They are just moving further and further to the right.... If you can say the stuff Trump and Giuliani said, and win... How far will it go next time? Middle America clearly isn't put off by sexism and the like, so....
Don't get it twisted, I feel the same about her and her qualification as I did beforehand. She however lost an election, and for some people, thats enough to completely lose their minds.
The media proved they will always equalize too. Its never been put to the test with a lunatic as wild as Trump. But they even managed to make it seem like he was her political equal.
Its been amazing to fucking watch. And its going to be a blueprint for the future. The right sure as hell isn't going to lurch back towards the center. They are just moving further and further to the right.... If you can say the stuff Trump and Giuliani said, and win... How far will it go next time? Middle America clearly isn't put off by sexism and the like, so....
Don't get it twisted, I feel the same about her and her qualification as I did beforehand. She however lost an election, and for some people, thats enough to completely lose their minds.
IrishNinja
Member
in what way, exactly? certainly not a "hot mic" example
romeny got caught showing his ass, hillary made a brief & relevant statement about a growing element of white supremacy in her opponent's campaign, and frankly was reserved in her language about it
But it didn't. We don't see a spike in Republican turnout--quite the opposite. Fewer people voted for Trump than Romney in 2012.
The Democrats didn't show up. Either because they didn't think they needed to, or because they bought into the "crooked Hillary" narrative in one form or another. Democrats have a long history of only coming out when their party's candidate excites them, and Hillary didn't excite them. Take your pick. Those were all things Clinton's campaign failed to manage.
Man-is-Obsolete
Member
I actually agree about ACA premiums rising and Comey. Both of those came as a big 1-2 and caused even the faulty polls to tighten to a margin of error. If it wasn't for those two things I think the results would have been much different.
I mean Republicans spent years in congress vilifying ACA and refused to allow it to move forward with legislation that would have made it better and more affordable. Republicans are literally to blame for rising premiums and the Clinton campaign and media failed to get out in front of it so dems took full responsibility.
Comey, lets not even get started with that guy.
I actually wish Clinton's campaign almost ignored Trump and instead focused on the ineffectual republican congress of the last few years. A republican elected official brought a snowball inside to prove global warming doesn't exist. There was plenty of material to dismantle the Republican Party as a whole.
I mean Republicans spent years in congress vilifying ACA and refused to allow it to move forward with legislation that would have made it better and more affordable. Republicans are literally to blame for rising premiums and the Clinton campaign and media failed to get out in front of it so dems took full responsibility.
Comey, lets not even get started with that guy.
I actually wish Clinton's campaign almost ignored Trump and instead focused on the ineffectual republican congress of the last few years. A republican elected official brought a snowball inside to prove global warming doesn't exist. There was plenty of material to dismantle the Republican Party as a whole.
Puck Beaverton
Banned
It's hard to fight as well. I still believe it, for example.
Well not that she's satan of course
"Basket of deplorables".
Doesn't matter how much it is true, you don't insult the electorate, even you opponent's
But Obama wasn't running against a candidate who was openly platforming on racism and xenophobia, talking up protectionism, and peddling snake oil about restoring the manufacturing economy of 50 years ago. Those same white blue collar voters who apparently would have inevitably voted for Obama but didn't vote for Hillary are the same voters who, in the 2008 Democratic primary when given the direct choice between the two, cast their votes for HRC. That was her base. Matchups matter.
Clearly, the electorate disagreed.
Tom Nook Sawyer
Member
In that it basically directly insulted half the country
Adam_Vania
Banned
"basket of deplorables" sounds like something a robber baron would say in a old timey cartoon not a real living breathing regular person in 2016.
Yeah. That same stuff cost Romney and that was behind closed-doors.
You don't insult the electorate or bring in your opponent's family into a campaign unless they're publicly involved with it.
IrishNinja
Member
yeah, i literally can't argue with a single thing in this post, agreed on all fronts.
nah, see prior posts
if ya'll really wanna create some reality where that moved the needle on a base she had a shot with, let's see some receipts
this much i can agree with, which is why personally i was a bit disappointed she passed on the more obvious "shower of cunts"
aygomyownroad
Member
They need accountability. They need to be honest where it went wrong otherwise they will never improve.
From what I have read it seems an easy fix. They needed in the media more like Trump, they needed to focus more on the Rust States, I'm sure i read Clinton didn't visit a state which saw Trump visit 4 or so times! Thats arrogance of the extreme and neglecting voters.
If Trump had lost they could have pointed out he was unpopular, they could have said the media campaign to smeer him was successful in pushing away voters, but they won as they had the ground troops. Focused on areas where Clinton ignored.
Every day in the UK at least there was more stories of Trump and his ramblings, stories of him visiting states and putting his foot in it, yet there was never any mention of Clinton.
They were complacent and it is their own fault.
Also Bernie shouldn't be blamed. Maybe they should have worked more with him instead of very quickly throwing him under the Clinton tour bus.
From what I have read it seems an easy fix. They needed in the media more like Trump, they needed to focus more on the Rust States, I'm sure i read Clinton didn't visit a state which saw Trump visit 4 or so times! Thats arrogance of the extreme and neglecting voters.
If Trump had lost they could have pointed out he was unpopular, they could have said the media campaign to smeer him was successful in pushing away voters, but they won as they had the ground troops. Focused on areas where Clinton ignored.
Every day in the UK at least there was more stories of Trump and his ramblings, stories of him visiting states and putting his foot in it, yet there was never any mention of Clinton.
They were complacent and it is their own fault.
Also Bernie shouldn't be blamed. Maybe they should have worked more with him instead of very quickly throwing him under the Clinton tour bus.
Puck Beaverton
Banned
it really is politics 101 to not insult people you're attempting to court
she was kinda right obviously, but it's about lying and putting on a smile
she was kinda right obviously, but it's about lying and putting on a smile
SolidSnakex
Member
Will they? Are they going to tell people like Donna Brazile to get out? Because if they don't then they aren't looking hard at Trump's success. Because a large part of his success are built around painting the DNC as being corrupt because of how hard they backed Clinton over everyone else. And we know Donna was in on that. Her being shown the door would be the first sign that they're going to change. If she keeps her chair, then this loss will show they've learned nothing.
Tom Nook Sawyer
Member
I don't think you could find any single issue this election that could be shown concretly to have "moved the needle."
But if you honestly thing the "deplorables" statement didn't have any impact at all, I doubt there'd be any convincing you anyway. It became one of the go-to comments of Trump's supporters, with many even embracing ironically
If Trump turns out to be the modern day Hitler/Stalin I think he's going to be, voting against someone is going to be more exciting than voting for someone for a generation.
Puck Beaverton
Banned
I would hope they are not that dumb. They have to realize a shake-up must occur.
"Deplorables" doesn't need to turn potential voters to the other side, it can be used motivate the other side to show up.
IrishNinja
Member
ya'll stay forgetting that she lost not by racists not magically coming over, but not exciting her base
once again: your argument here is she would've put better #'s on the board with said base/actual non racists by not saying word one on the historical openness of white supremacy in her opponent's platform
yeah, that part was interesting, and made identifying people on twitter/etc who needed to be blocked a great deal easier
also see: tons of !!!'s, all caps, red siren things
with respect: this kinda reeks of that weird narrative in '04 that farenheit 911 energized & cost kerry the election
i mean, even if you could prove it somehow, it seems such a strange linchpin to grab when there's actual factors around
googleplex
Member
The travesty of this is that it worked well on voters who would have voted Democrat any other time. 30 year of Republican propaganda had utterly convince a large number of millennials that Hillary was crooked and not to be trusted despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
And it Certainly didn't help matters that Bernie energized his based on this also. Bernie and his campaign told his supporters that the Democratic Party represented everything bad in America politics despite the fact that they were the only thing stopping the Republicans from turning America into a conservative shit hole. That the democrats and Hillary by extension was rigging the election. An attack that Trump continues to use. Thank you very much Bernie. So they stayed home.
TheSchwab_7
Member
Would Bernie being her VP change anything? Just the simple image of having both of them together may have been more motivating for some voters rather than have Tim Kaine, who I'm sure is a good man, but he's bland as hell. Plus Bernie debating Pence would have given voters a reason to tune into the VP debate and have more screen time for Bernie.
Also, listen to Bill the man won two elections!!
Also, listen to Bill the man won two elections!!
Please. I voted for that loser. I'd rather she lost the primaries, but she had to lose when it actually mattered, ffs. Against a racist perv, no less.
Also, you don't get to talk shit and then tell me to be quiet just because your reality was so distorted that her emails weren't an actual issue. Just another dose of reality: people actually cared, and it was just one of the several reasons why she couldn't muster enough enthusiasm to win against someone who used charity funds for legal fees.
UnemployedVillain
Member
But it didn't because that wasn't the case...Trumps total numbers were lower than Romney's in 2012. Everyone here is assuming it was Democrats turning to Trumps side, when the results in some states could have very well ALSO been Trump getting the expected amount of votes and Hillary get much less (due to apathy and not voting), which would make it looks like a relative move towards Trump
Why do people assume Bernie would have agreed to this? How can Bernie supporters honestly think this when the opposite seems much more likely??
lastflowers
Banned
Don't fucking Frame the conversation as Coddling, and don't take their vote for granted much like the DNC shouldn't take the minority vote for granted. Enact policies that don't take away their jobs. Don't frame every fucking Budget conversation about the National Deficit, as that cedes an immediate rhetorical talking point to the republicans as you try to get your policy initiatives off the ground.
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/united-states/2016-06-13/american-political-decay-or-renewal
https://www.jacobinmag.com/2016/06/bernie-sanders-achen-bartels-white-men-krugman-election-clinton/
https://www.jacobinmag.com/2016/03/bernie-sanders-black-voters-firewall-primary/
aygomyownroad
Member
This type of stuff really is hilarious. You need to wait to see how he is as President. He may be good. He may be terrible. But to say he will turn out to be a modern day Hitler/Stalin? Its laughable. I doubt highly that he will start a mass war. Kill millions of his own population.
The biggest danger is that his friendliness with Russia could cause Russia to invade more into the Baltic states but the onus there would be on Putin.
I doubt he will even build that wall, doubt he will even ban Muslims it was all bluster to gain votes.
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