lastflowers
Banned
It's more or less that the sober, pragmatic analysts and posters weren't looking at the tea leaves and fighting the wrong battles with the wrong words.
Clinton aides blame loss on FBI, media, sexism, Bernie, everything but themselves
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It's more or less that the sober, pragmatic analysts and posters weren't looking at the tea leaves and fighting the wrong battles with the wrong words.
PHOENIXZERO
Member
The fact they basically ignored the "rust belt" and have the nerve to claim they ran a good campaign and _____ is to blame is downright embarrassing. None of these people should be a part of the DNC anymore, the Cult of Clinton needs to go back under their rock and stay there. They better fucking not try to run Hillary again for 2020.
Yeah the moment she did that was a red flag that should've been taken more seriously.
Yeah the moment she did that was a red flag that should've been taken more seriously.
Audioboxer
Member
Summarising it like that would essentially mean calling the Democrats who didn't turn out sexist? I get wanting to call Trump fans sexist but calling your own side that? We have enough proof what happens when liberals starting tearing their own to pieces and name calling.
Given the numbers trying to argue the loss in such a simplistic way doesn't actually play into attacking Trump or his supporters. Which is what most seemingly want to try and do when they mention sexism and Clinton.
Unfortunately she didn't lose for a simple reason such as the one you presented. There wasn't an uptick in new republican voters to suggest Dems went Trump because Hillary is female. They simply abstained from voting, at all.
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
She didnt lose because she is a woman.
I know I got caught up in the "No way she can lose now" hype. I went through this with Gore. He was predicted to win. Probably in four years I will have forgotten history and get caught up again.
lastflowers
Banned
hindsight
she lost because she was a Clinton and a poster child for politics as usual during a time when the american public outright rejected establishment politics
They called Florida before the western part of the state (The panhandle) had their polling places closed. So even with all of the controversy involving butterfly ballots and whatnot, if the media had waited an hour while the rest of Florida had come in, Bush would've won by a few thousand votes since the panhandle is strong Republican territory.
UnemployedVillain
Member
You keep saying crumbling when we know the differential wasnt even up to 2% in most of them. Her campaign had things it fucked up with, but why are people so intent of discounting emails just because they personally didn't think them serious? Some people in here are really trying to downplay something that was reported on 9x more than her policies.
Its not so much that imho.
First non protestant President was JFK. First non white President was Obama.
Both of them were rockstars, Clinton is the complete opposite. There are female candidates that have the potential to be these generational candidates, but Hilary was a charisma vacumn.
legacyzero
Banned
If America is ready for a Black man to successfully win not one, but TWO subsequent elections, they're ready for a White woman (IMO).
What they DONT want is a candidate, (male or female) that is untrustworthy, perceived as not principled, has a history of fucking over the very people that failed her in the election, and carries heavy leaning towards special interest groups with tangible evidence of the conflict of interest at play.
Hell I'd vote my own Mother into office, but I only "fell in line" to support Hillary because Trump is toxic. I was never with her. FOR her maybe. But never with.
edit: at least not after I knew more about her. Sketchy.
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
Donald Trump Defeats Hillary Clinton -- Why She Lost & What's Next? Jimmy Dore has been right on all of this for at least a year and i believe he is correct again in that video.
Older folks run the DNC, etc. Hopefully an old dog can learn new tricks and be more aware of security.
Frightening article. It sounds like Putin has a plan that is working so far. Someone posted today about Russian plans for the Ukraine the next few months using social networking to help destabilize the government.
Principate
Saint Titanfall
It wasn't unpredictable and it wasn't a freak. The results speak for themselves. Both campaigns have lower or at most roughly the same in Trump's case voter turn out. Hillary lost key states that she neglected in active campaigning and message by small margins. The fact turnout was so low is completely down to the Clinton's campaign and you could predict this from the second primaries were over very easily. Both Candidates had the lowest favourability ratings in history, the public liked neither candidate. Low turn out was extremely likely and this favoured the republicans rather than the democrats, since as shown in mid terms and history in general, Republicans in general vote consistency and in line. As you can see by whether she campaigned and to what degree, Hillary was campaigning on battleground states and R linings in hopes of a sizeable victory. She campaigned on the assumption that she would win and the question rather than if would be how much. Her campaign did not put in countermeasure in case of a low turn out nor any sort of defensive plan. Which is why she lost by the smallest margins.
She lost for the most obvious reasons, the classic case of counting your chickens. Never assume something is a sure thing if there's a reasonable chance it isn't.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
People within her campaign were begging her to campaign differently.
Maybe there's hindsight for some of us, but not for many people who saw the writing on the wall months ago.
The Shadow
Member
I'm just going to float this out here for you Hilldogs. If Hillary was a better candidate, do you honest to god think the email thing would sink her? If the DNC actually listened to people's concerns about their candidate, do you think just maybe they should have just addressed it?
The fact of the matter is, this was hanging over Clinton's head WAY before the general election. Don't pretend like the FBI just suddenly brought it back into people's minds. Moreover, her opposition had ties to Russia, ongoing criminal court cases, recordings of him bragging about sexual assult, calling mexicans rapest, etc, etc. And despite ALL that, she couldn't just address the email issue with the voting public and tell them what was going on? This is why Trump "Told it how it was". He didn't just shut down. Even if he was lying, he at least addressed people.
She took a step back, played it safe. She played politics and pretended like nothing was wrong. Months ago people people said they viewed her as untrustworthy. Not because she lied outright like Trump, but because she hid things. She hid the email issue. She wasn't open and forthcoming.
That's what doomed her. If she was a better candidate, the emails well and truly would have been nothing. And frankly, they still are nothing. How you deal with marks like that speaks volumes about a person.
Seriously. I want some of that Kool-Aid so I can hold my head high and act like nothing's my problem too.
The fact of the matter is, this was hanging over Clinton's head WAY before the general election. Don't pretend like the FBI just suddenly brought it back into people's minds. Moreover, her opposition had ties to Russia, ongoing criminal court cases, recordings of him bragging about sexual assult, calling mexicans rapest, etc, etc. And despite ALL that, she couldn't just address the email issue with the voting public and tell them what was going on? This is why Trump "Told it how it was". He didn't just shut down. Even if he was lying, he at least addressed people.
She took a step back, played it safe. She played politics and pretended like nothing was wrong. Months ago people people said they viewed her as untrustworthy. Not because she lied outright like Trump, but because she hid things. She hid the email issue. She wasn't open and forthcoming.
That's what doomed her. If she was a better candidate, the emails well and truly would have been nothing. And frankly, they still are nothing. How you deal with marks like that speaks volumes about a person.
Seriously. I want some of that Kool-Aid so I can hold my head high and act like nothing's my problem too.
TheTylerRob
Member
You've already been shouted down but it definitely played a bigger factor than people here will admit. Institutional misogyny is some real shit.
Hell, even I'm no expert and I had a bad feeling as well. I was a tiny bit off, but still. People shouldn't act we couldn't have seen this coming. The main point of this election was anti establishment and it could be seen from a mile away.
And lets make this crystal clear.. i am a fucking idiot and even i saw this coming.
Back from February:
Reply:
We simply got to comfortable.
Audioboxer
Member
He/she framed it as the reason she lost. It was not an argument about whether misogyny exists and is a problem.
Both these things are true
-Clinton Campaign made mistakes, big ones
-GOP smear machine, bullshit media coverage of EMAILS, Russia, Comey, Sexism, etc. all contributed to this super NARROW defeat.
We as a group can call out Clinton's bullshit without dismissing the real fact that she had the deck stacked against her in a way no other candidate did. Gore and Kerry also made big mistakes but they didn't have to put up with as much bullshit either.
I'm sure that regardless of the content of this article that moving forward the DNC will do some self-reflection on how to move forward and improve. I don't expect much of Clinton's campaign staff to have campaigning jobs moving forward LOL. I think there are a lot of strong avenues to purse and lessons to learn though its also going to depend on how much of a shitshow the Trump years are.
-Clinton Campaign made mistakes, big ones
-GOP smear machine, bullshit media coverage of EMAILS, Russia, Comey, Sexism, etc. all contributed to this super NARROW defeat.
We as a group can call out Clinton's bullshit without dismissing the real fact that she had the deck stacked against her in a way no other candidate did. Gore and Kerry also made big mistakes but they didn't have to put up with as much bullshit either.
I'm sure that regardless of the content of this article that moving forward the DNC will do some self-reflection on how to move forward and improve. I don't expect much of Clinton's campaign staff to have campaigning jobs moving forward LOL. I think there are a lot of strong avenues to purse and lessons to learn though its also going to depend on how much of a shitshow the Trump years are.
Wiz
Member
Hindsight post incoming.
I feel like a lot of people, the DNC, other hopeful candiates and voters, were told to clear the runway and just "let" Clinton be the nominee. Essentially everyone felt like it was her "turn" after losing to Obama in 2008. This was evident in the primary. Yes, she got the most votes fair and square, but she had no real competition early on. Bernie got more traction as the primary went on and made it a real fight. But millions of voters didn't really know Bernie that well, and Clinton had been propped up as "the one", for years, so she won. Also, super delegates pretty much all threw their weight behind her. And the media. All in all, in was like a coronation.
But along the way, there were so many warning signs that she wasn't the one. The fact the Democratic primary was closer than the GOP and went on until the very end. The fact that there were protests at the convention, people booing the mere mention of her name. The DWS emails that show the DNC was against Bernie from the jump. The fact Bernie clearly had the enthusiasm on his side the entire time - bigger crowds, a clear message, and no baggage.. The fact she lost Michigan primary by surprise. The fact she lost 8 years earlier to a senator who came out of nowhere - that should have told her something. The fact she did worse than Bernie or even Biden against GOP candidates in polls. The fact she never gave a good answer on many controversial issues - emails, Wall street speeches, Clinton Foundation. The fact she never really had a clear message. I watched a lot of her rallies. It was just a long list of policy and attacking Trump. No theme. The fact that she's just not inspiring. The fact that she focused too much attention taking Trump down and not reshaping herself. The fact she LOST to DONALD TRUMP. LOL. Can't believe it. I supported her, I voted for her (but voted Bernie in the primary), I donated to her, I got in line like many other Bernie people were told to do. Never complained when it became evident she would win the nomination. And she blew it. Her campaign staff needs to take all the blame they can take. The DNC needs new leadership and new ideas.
I could go on and on. I hope this is a lesson learned for the DNC going forward, and anyone who decides to run in 2020.
I feel like a lot of people, the DNC, other hopeful candiates and voters, were told to clear the runway and just "let" Clinton be the nominee. Essentially everyone felt like it was her "turn" after losing to Obama in 2008. This was evident in the primary. Yes, she got the most votes fair and square, but she had no real competition early on. Bernie got more traction as the primary went on and made it a real fight. But millions of voters didn't really know Bernie that well, and Clinton had been propped up as "the one", for years, so she won. Also, super delegates pretty much all threw their weight behind her. And the media. All in all, in was like a coronation.
But along the way, there were so many warning signs that she wasn't the one. The fact the Democratic primary was closer than the GOP and went on until the very end. The fact that there were protests at the convention, people booing the mere mention of her name. The DWS emails that show the DNC was against Bernie from the jump. The fact Bernie clearly had the enthusiasm on his side the entire time - bigger crowds, a clear message, and no baggage.. The fact she lost Michigan primary by surprise. The fact she lost 8 years earlier to a senator who came out of nowhere - that should have told her something. The fact she did worse than Bernie or even Biden against GOP candidates in polls. The fact she never gave a good answer on many controversial issues - emails, Wall street speeches, Clinton Foundation. The fact she never really had a clear message. I watched a lot of her rallies. It was just a long list of policy and attacking Trump. No theme. The fact that she's just not inspiring. The fact that she focused too much attention taking Trump down and not reshaping herself. The fact she LOST to DONALD TRUMP. LOL. Can't believe it. I supported her, I voted for her (but voted Bernie in the primary), I donated to her, I got in line like many other Bernie people were told to do. Never complained when it became evident she would win the nomination. And she blew it. Her campaign staff needs to take all the blame they can take. The DNC needs new leadership and new ideas.
I could go on and on. I hope this is a lesson learned for the DNC going forward, and anyone who decides to run in 2020.
Hindsight is 20/20, but seeing how the traditionally GOP base was so energized by an outsider steamrolling their establishment everyone should have known that running one of the most establishment figures in politics against him was a bad idea. Could Bernie have won? I think probably, but who knows. So many voters throughout the Rust Belt, Midwest, and several swing states wanted anything else so badly this may have been a foregone conclusion.
Sitting on your ass and not doing much polling is not campaigning correctly, nor does it give you a very good understanding of the real conditions. The worst assumption made was that Hillary would be running a campaign and GOTV as good as Obama did.
Eh, its there but institutional racism is much stronger and Obama overcame it.
Sort of a self-defeating notion given that the better half of campaigning is about understanding the conditions.
If you hired an exterminator and he showed up with no posion and proceeded to just stomp on the bugs, you wouldn't be like "he did the best he could with what he had" you'd be like "why the fuck didn't this guy know to bring any poison!?"
Living the Dream
Member
Obama was the record holder for most disliked candidate until Hillary or Trump, though. Overcame it enough to win, despite being widely loathed. (2012, not 2008)
Astral Dog
Member
What a baby
Audioboxer
Member
Yes and that should show that its the republicans who always offer the hate. Meaning Obama got the Dems onside to vote for him in good numbers. Hillary didn't. So if you make the sexist argument you are calling your own side sexist.
lol, someone needs to photo shop bernie frozen in carbonite
PdotMichael
Banned
Obama proved that it isn't about being disliked or not but how many people you can get on your side.
And Clinton lost millions of voters who were ready to vote for Obama four years ago.
It's not that Trump pulled a great result as well, in fact it was pretty bad too.
TheTylerRob
Member
You guys really think racism is more prevalent than sexism? This is off topic but I really don't believe that at all.
This is my take as well. If the DNC were fucking with the primary you can bet they were working prior to the primary to setup Clinton's coronation. This was all decided during the first Obama term (maybe even when he was still running).
That or the Democrats have a big problem as they were badly lacking talent.
T
thepotatoman
Unconfirmed Member
Is there any analysis on how well Clinton did at picking up moderate republicans? Any noticeable movement there at all?
The Shadow
Member
The point of that post was that DESPITE institutionalized racism, Obama overcame it. Hillary was not able to overcome sexism. She didn't GOTV.
I'm not saying it doesn't exist or didn't play a factor. I don't think anyone who voted for Hillary would say that. But to flap your hands and say she lost because of sexism is just straight up bullshit and denial of the highest order.
The evidence seems to show that the majority of swinging was from Dem to Rep. If moderate reps didn't like Trump, they just didn't vote.
Principate
Saint Titanfall
That's because after he won the Primary the democrat base saw in him someone that could fix their problems and minorities saw themselves in him and got their butts out to vote for the first minority president in history. The majority of white women didn't vote for Clinton even against a blatant misogynist and to minorities and the rest of the democratic base she represented more of the same. If the same isn't all that great for what reason would you go out and vote for it.
She probably could have won if she could appeal to a core demographic that could empathize with her.
adamsappel
Member
He sold it to millennials, who didn't see socialism as a bad thing anyway. But honeymooning in the Soviet Union/USSR (millennials might not even be aware of these terms), praising Fidel Castro and Sandinistas, etc. are anathema to a huge section of the traditional voting bloc.
How is it ultra-obvious? Clinton won the youth vote, which was at typical levels.
It might be that young voters really liked Barack Obama and Bernie Sanders simply because they were inspirational, while older voters voted for Obama and Clinton because they also represented breaking a barrier that once seemed insurmountable. I voted for Mondale/Ferraro. I've been waiting a long time to finally vote for a woman for president (though that's not to say I didn't like Clinton on her own merits; I did).
I don't think it was bad, it was just a bit worse, but ultimately not that different. The republicans he lost he made up in independents and turn cloaking democrats. The Rust Belt and the anti-establishment movement were two huge oversights.
lastflowers
Banned
It's a good question, but some of the key districts she lost in comparison to Obama (from memory of election night) were suburbs of major cities--places where I would expect the flow to be the other way if she indeed grabbed moderate republicans. I tend to be of the belief that they simply didn't vote in the presidential ticket, or voted trump.
teruterubozu
Member
uuuh, that's the only time I mentioned it. Anyway, I said it's one of many complex factors. That was my point, but you can twist it any strawman way you want I suppose.
Oh wow I remember that sticking out to me because I've always seen you as one of the stand out voices of OT.
Kudos
Oh and Jimmy Dore was the only "positive" in my mind after the result because I knew he'd put a hell of a show since he's marvelous when he's pissed, and you're right, he's been calling it all year.
Graphics Horse
Member
Besides the Comey surprise thing, all these were known before they got cocky in the home stretch.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
The smear machine, emails and sexism were known issues going into the campaign.
They should have A) been ready to deal with them or B) nominated someone without a decades long image problem, even if you think that image problem was wholly unfair.
teruterubozu
Member
I wonder if they'll offer discounts for speaking fees now.
UnemployedVillain
Member
By "you" I should have said "people" (who use that argument in general). My apologies
lastflowers
Banned
I tend to think from this mindset: http://www.newsweek.com/young-american-voters-trump-clinton-511794
But then again, I'm a millenial who grew up in a vastly conservative community (1 of 2 dems out of 30+ person classrooms). Still voted for Clinton, donated over 600$ this election (the first where I've had some money that I can consider expendible for campaigns), and did some phone-banking. Most of my HS peers, who I would consider conservative, definitely weren't for Trump. The two outspoken Trumpers were college peers.
Principate
Saint Titanfall
Man if you all don't get grip and stop acting like PoliGAF is some humongous country wide organization that wields the power to swing entire elections, Im gonna lose my mind. Jesus Christ, never has a community thread been so overhyped.
Neogaf isn't niche in this context, it was one of top refers to Clinton's own site so as far as analysis of support it's as good a place as any to start with.
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