Damn. So the inclusion of several diverse characters, names, voice actors, having as OP stated almost 20+ options for hispanics and asians, goes out the window as fraud because the black hair customization is still limited? You cannot please everybody and yeah they should do more, but this invalidation of everything else just because it isn't more is just crazy.
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Do white game developers not know how to represent people of color?
- Thread starter Blunoise
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Damn. So the inclusion of several diverse characters, names, voice actors, having as OP stated almost 20+ options for hispanics and asians, goes out the window as fraud because the black hair customization is still limited? You cannot please everybody and yeah they should do more, but this invalidation of everything else just because it isn't more is just crazy.
Calling Manveer Heir a racist prick is a Gamergate / alt-right tactic. It's been debunked before and it's slander against a marginalized game developer who's just speaking up about white supremacy and joking about the fragility of white people. That's not racist and it's like calling Dave Chapelle or Eddie Murphy or Louis CK or whoever 'racist' for joking about white people.
Nadine's hair was gorgeous. Next level tech.
HappehLemons
Member
Rendering hair is really hard in general, regardless of how different hair types move and react to light. But @ OP - I though the Character Del in Gears 4 looked great. The hair looks utterly fantastic.
Gears had great digital grooms because they hired people who specialized in digital grooming. It's a very very small market of 3D designers and not many people are good at it. I know Dani Garcia was on the team and honestly I think he's one of the best in the world. I don't think people understand how much effort goes into just creating hair. Just because someone is good at character modeling does not mean they are good at digital grooming as well, and creating new, or even just accurate hair style is such a huge challenge.
Gotdatmoney
Member
You go to work at a giant ass corporation as one of the only minorities and make a huge ruckus about diversity and see where it gets you.
I know it's hard to understand but it actually isn't benign to go to work and push for these things. It can put you in bad standing.
I think Manveer Heir's jokes are more on the level of Pewdiepie's recent jokes than an actual comedians.
Old Gimlet Eyes
Member
Is it that hard for some of the art designers to take a trip to a barber shop?
Xaero Gravity
NEXT LEVEL lame™
I've seen nothing but hateful comments from him. To me, those kind of comments are utterly disgusting regardless of what skin color the person making them is. Maybe I'm weird, but to me, racism is racism and it saddens me to see it being so pronounced in 2017. It feels like we're regressing as a species, but I don't mean to derail the thread.
Dictator93
Member
Wow I did not know that. Do you have a link talking about specialised digital hair set up or how they did it in Gears 4? I would love to know more.
Also, bonus round screen of Del because it is that good.
Riri Williams goes by Ironheart, not Iron Woman.
On-topic, they did Del pretty good from a design standpoint in Gears 4. I just wish that more games would better represent people of color. My hope for a Habesha character in Street Fighter V aside, we don't really have another black character in the game so far besides Balrog (though there are rumors of Byron Taylor, Guile's superior, joining the cast, which I suppose helps).
On-topic, they did Del pretty good from a design standpoint in Gears 4. I just wish that more games would better represent people of color. My hope for a Habesha character in Street Fighter V aside, we don't really have another black character in the game so far besides Balrog (though there are rumors of Byron Taylor, Guile's superior, joining the cast, which I suppose helps).
dave is ok
aztek is ok
He's not a standup comic making jokes. If you look at his twitter feed, it won't take long to see some 'Fuck white people' shit. If you don't consider him racist, that's fine but don't tell someone else their opinion is wrong because of some alt-right mind control tactic or whatever
NipplesAndToes23
Member
Those were some good ass reads.
Ideally we could get some bantu knots, pony hawks, varied afros, cornrows with hangtime, three types of dreads, taper cuts, cesars with parts, waves, and other short styles. Oh and some headwraps.
I fully support everyone being able to choose from as many shitty hairstyles as I can when flicking through them in a character creator. I'm guessing it's hard to make even relatively simple 'white' haircuts the designer is familiar with look good, often they seem to look like a dozen varieties of a wig of dyed horsehair or a matted, oily mess glued to the scalp. No wonder I go for whichever one makes my character look the least ridiculous rather than whichever one I think suits them. But sure, back on topic, more choice in hairstyles for 'black' characters, and once the designers have done that, maybe better hairstyles for everyone!
Great stuff, thanks for that.
Lord Error
Insane For Sony
Xaero Gravity
NEXT LEVEL lame™
It's OK, I'm apparently alt right now. Fucking eh.
Spring-Loaded
Member
Yea I would have to give props to Horizon I have yet to play it yet(still on Zelda) but I was so happy to see the diversity in that game
Females esp. got short changed in ME:A when it comes to hair options.
I'm of the firm belief that Bioware ought to release more styles for both genders and for all ethnicities as dlc down the line.
Off topic:I think this is a topic for a different time but one good thing about current rendering tech is that characters with darker skin generally look more realistic. Sub suface scattering, albedo, etc are do a good job at capturing the oiliness, roughness etc of darker pigments. Now, if only the hair options were commensurate.
I'm of the firm belief that Bioware ought to release more styles for both genders and for all ethnicities as dlc down the line.
Off topic:I think this is a topic for a different time but one good thing about current rendering tech is that characters with darker skin generally look more realistic. Sub suface scattering, albedo, etc are do a good job at capturing the oiliness, roughness etc of darker pigments. Now, if only the hair options were commensurate.
DarkConfidant
Member
I'm just happy whenever the black dude has more options for hair than spiky.
It's rough out there. DX
I remember in ESPN NFL 2K5 that the black cheerleaders were literally just the white cheerleader character models with skin tone changed. Everything else identical.
It's sad how true I want this to be. Or a cheat code even XD
It's rough out there. DX
I remember in ESPN NFL 2K5 that the black cheerleaders were literally just the white cheerleader character models with skin tone changed. Everything else identical.
It's sad how true I want this to be. Or a cheat code even XD
Vincent Grayson
Member
Everything about Horizon's NPCs is just fantastic. The racial and physical diversity, the unique clothing and armor designs, and the graphical fidelity itself.
It makes ME:A look pretty bad by comparison (and just about everything else, really).
KoopaTheCasual
Junior Member
But as the OP (and reality) show, there's always dozens of options you get to choose from that get closer to lots of possibilities. Black hair presets/styles are still garbage.
OT: This thread feels like some serious deja vu. Could have sworn we had a "black character creators are awful" thread last year? Not that I'm complaining about this thread existing, mind you.
Holy shit, that's dope.
Still need to pick up Horizon.
Tangentially related but I had a conversation with my girlfriend recently about how black men, whether they be side characters or the focal protagonist, all kinda look the same way in triple AAA western games. I mean it's the same case for white dudes too (bald space marine) but you don't see a lot of black men as characters in the first place so it really stands out. And by look the same I mean they all like Jax from mortal Kombat.
Not when we're talking about amount of options. It's not equal.
Black Mantis
Member
Yup, fed up of seeing those accusations against him, typical defensive reactions.
On-topic: As for the hair issue, as other posters mentioned, the NBA 2K and Gears 4 games have some good hair. Given that it's not unusual for dev studios to visit each other to share knowledge (think Bungie & Naughty Dog, Rare & Playground Games), constantly raising the issue could prompt Bioware to visit Visual concepts and get help. Going by that vid in the OP and their old games, they need it!
Fair enough.
old manatee
Banned
The Souls games seriously need to add about 30 more hair options to their character creators. You can spend a week fiddling with knobs to make any type of person you want, and then you have to drop a hairstyle on them that makes it look like they follow Fallout Boy on tour.
Ninja Scooter
Member
Is this what happens when you set the slider all the way to "Just fuck my shit up"?
DarkConfidant
Member
Very off topic, but I've always been suspicious of his hair.
Unreal Champ
Banned
No. They don't and that's why the industry needs more people of colour in higher up positions. It's a shame every time I go to a conference all I see are nothing but white people and few people of colour scattered about.
Goose_Se7en
Banned
I get where the OP is coming from. In games where you can create your own character and truly own him/her it can be especially frustrating.
In Ghost Recon Wildlands I had to pick the black guy and say ok, he's a dark skin Puerto Rican brotha. The one Hispanic looking guy they had looked nothing like me.
Moreover this is just a problem at large in the games industry. Too many white folks. I watch E3, I watch the games press, I watch places like KF and EZA. Nothing but white folks. I'm never for forcing diversity, it should happen organically. But why isn't happening organically in the gaming industry?
In Ghost Recon Wildlands I had to pick the black guy and say ok, he's a dark skin Puerto Rican brotha. The one Hispanic looking guy they had looked nothing like me.
Moreover this is just a problem at large in the games industry. Too many white folks. I watch E3, I watch the games press, I watch places like KF and EZA. Nothing but white folks. I'm never for forcing diversity, it should happen organically. But why isn't happening organically in the gaming industry?
SirPinkyNose
Member
So it's ok to joke about white people on the basis of their race but it's not ok to joke about black people on the basis of their race?
Isn't this the very definition of hypocrisy?
This line of thought is incredibly harmful if you want to achieve equality. 2 wrongs don't make a right. Manveer Heir IS a racist prick who is doing more harm than good in representing people of color.
SirPinkyNose
Member
There is no such hair like that in MEA customization.
LordKasual
Banned
I remember posting about this in another topic, but rendering black skin and hair correctly sometimes involves incorporating different techniques than the norm. The physical traits that make long, thick hair look believable dont really work so well for curly, soft, and frizzy hair. So many times developers will cut their losses and just use the few hairstyles (cornrows, a thick afro) that can be done with normal techniques and be done.
You'll notice that many times, even when black people are prominent in a game, they'll stick with hairstyles that don't require them to render anything with frizz or volume. This is especially true for games that aim for photo realism, as shown with Horizon up there.
As for the title of this thread, it cant really get any more rhetorical than it is, the answer is obvious. The reasoning however varies between situations.
You'll notice that many times, even when black people are prominent in a game, they'll stick with hairstyles that don't require them to render anything with frizz or volume. This is especially true for games that aim for photo realism, as shown with Horizon up there.
As for the title of this thread, it cant really get any more rhetorical than it is, the answer is obvious. The reasoning however varies between situations.
Rendering hair is really hard in general, regardless of how different hair types move and react to light. But @ OP - I though the Character Del in Gears 4 looked great. The hair looks utterly fantastic.
Yeah, he did look really well done. I find that hair style is often either not done, or it is a complete misfire.
Gears of War 4 pulled it off well.
Most of his twitter timeline is ""jokes"" against white people.
Seems kind of odd, and I think it's reasonable to question it.
sixteen-bit
Member
Japanese games also tend to render black skin poorly. Zasalamel looked like he was made out of chocolate instead of flesh in SCIV. Work on your skin shaders ffs.
Hidden Negro Presets (tm) you mean.
It's the black NCO/tough guy/strong guy archetype. Physically imposing, well-muscled, no-nonsense straight-talking, salt-of-the-earth chap. I think it's just that such a character is a common appearance as an ally of a lead character (particularly in 'heroic' pulp combat-based-stuff like games revel in) before you feature in what colour their skin is, and so after the designer has decided the lead character is white, if there's a black character in the lead cast at all, they seem to gravitate there for some reason.
inpHilltr8r
Member
As a bald white guy I find that hair choices in games quite often match my style.
Fahzgoolin
Banned
Honestly OP, as a white male this bothers me too. I never like playing as black characters in these games because they look like freaks, not human beings.
Heck, half life 2 represented black people as convincing humans...
come on devs...give us white people incentive to diversify our avatars.
Heck, half life 2 represented black people as convincing humans...
come on devs...give us white people incentive to diversify our avatars.
I wasn't saying you're alt-right, I was saying that the targeting of Manveer Heir is a tactic propagated by the alt-right in the gaming community. You have to be critical of the accusations that gets thrown around and see the context from which it derives from. There's a reason why a thread got locked about this very issue, because it is clearly something that is propagated by the toxic parts of the gaming community.
And personally, I think it's not a good look to chastise one of the few prominent people of color in the games industry because you are offended that he's personally outspoken about racial oppression and that he jokes about the harassment that he receives. There's a reason why the gamer bigots hate him and that is because that they can't handle an outspoken minority.
Instead, you should read up on what Heir has been doing in trying to curb the injustices in the games industry and culture -> http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=787832
No more thread derail and just PM me if you want to discuss further.
Yuppp. Or more options for head coverings considering large portions of the world still wear them either for style, religion, or otherwise. It's not always a hat or bandanna.
Angel Whispers
Member
ARE YOU FUCKING SERIOUS!?
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