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[The Boat]

Ahahahahahahah, oh man, that was a good laugh.

 

[hbkajshdvfbkjhvgkahsgdfka]

I'm sorry, PSFan.

 

[Zomba13]

But 3D world is a course/level based platformer where the challenge/fun is getting to the end of the level while getting a small amount of collectables (3 stars and a stamp) while YL is a sandbox style collectathon where the goal is to collect a lot of stuff in big, free form open levels where you can do objectives in the order you like and there isn't an end goal point.

Now, I love 3D World and am enjoying YL (halfway through the first world) but they are different types of games. Wait till Odyssey and compare YL to that to see if the collectathon sandbox style is archaic or not.

 

[Skyzard]

Yeah, I didn't find it to be as good as Galaxy, but I just find the idea that Nintendo games are inherently judged in a different way to be strange. It doesn't really have any basis in fact or logic other than the idea that "only Nintendo fanatics ever buy Nintendo games"

Not really, Nintendo's games are targeted at a younger and generally more forgiving audience. Bright colours, simple controls and they can't really screw up unless they don't even try. Reviewers know people who buy the games often want to know if it'll be enjoyed by their kid.

Please don't reply with something amounting to "yeah ok, nintendo games are just for kids" because that's very obviously not what I'm saying.

 

[Jonneh3003]

I think I would find your arguement more compelling OP if you provided some images of this archiac game design. I can't relate because I simply can't picture what you're talking about. Like show us a bad angle provided by the fixed camera?

 

[TheMagician]

Don't agree at all with this assessment.

3D World is a 3D evolution of a traditional 2D platformer. It's like this by design. It's not trying to be a Mario 64 type game like Yooka Laylee is. It does what it sets out to do to perfection.

Whether you prefer the 3D World style or Mario 64 style is simply a matter of taste.

 

[The perfect Dark]

Yooka Laylee is way more fun than 3D World. I don't care if it's archaic (it's not).

 

[GusZamboni]

 

[Realeza]

Not really, Nintendo's games are targeted at a younger and generally more forgiving audience. Bright colours, simple controls and they can't really screw up unless they don't even try.

The fuck do "bright colours" even mean lmao.

 

[nkarafo]

Mario 3D World takes a lot of things that were frustrating about old 3D platformers and makes them more accessible, or removes them entirely. In fact, funnily enough, both the things you're complaining about are the examples I'd use. By doing what they did with the control and camera, they ensure that the player is less likely to accidentally walk off a narrow ledge or get killed by something that the camera didn't properly show them.

But then the game feels restrictive. Its not free roaming anymore. It doesn't even need to be 3D as it plays pretty much like an isometric 2D game.

Also, i disagree that 3D Worlds camera ensures that the player is less likely to accidentally walk off a narrow ledge or get killed by something that the camera didn't properly show them. Most of the times i got killed was because i couldn't understand the distance between me and an enemy or because i couldn't see what's under Mario's body.

 

[Salty Rice]

Well ones a great game the other is mediocre. Not much else to say.

Hey i dont think 3D World is mediocre.

 

[Jo Shishido's Cheeks]

Yikes. Delete this thread.

 

[JCH!]

Not really, Nintendo's games are targeted at a younger and generally more forgiving audience. Bright colours, simple controls and they can't really screw up unless they don't even try. Reviewers know people who buy the games often want to know if it'll be enjoyed by their kid.

Please don't reply with something amounting to "yeah ok, nintendo games are just for kids" because that's very obviously not what I'm saying.

What is this. lol

 

[Jonneh3003]

Not really, Nintendo's games are targeted at a younger and generally more forgiving audience. Bright colours, simple controls and they can't really screw up unless they don't even try.

 

[Colonel Mustard]

Not really, Nintendo's games are targeted at a younger and generally more forgiving audience. Bright colours, simple controls and they can't really screw up unless they don't even try.

Thats...not it at all. Mario games are designed to be as hard or easy as you want them to be. Champions road and the post game stuff in 3D Land is anything but 'forgiving' when one screw up kills you. Getting all the coins to unlock this stuff isn't exactly easy either.

 

[boiled goose]

When something works, it's not gonna get criticized.

I haven't played YL. But 3D world is tight.

 

[QuantumSquid]

The fuck do "bright colours" even mean lmao.

Don't you realize? Once you become a mature gamer, you can only play games that look like this:

 

[Futureman]

The fuck do "bright colours" even mean lmao.

Pretty obvious what it means ha and is true in many cases. I'm saying this as a massive Nintendo fan (generally the only videogames I play anymore).

Edit: I'm only responding to the"what does bright colors mean"

 

[Plum]

Not really, Nintendo's games are targeted at a younger and generally more forgiving audience. Bright colours, simple controls and they can't really screw up unless they don't even try.

Must be why Yooka Laylee, Snake Pass (which I personally think is great), Knack, Star Fox Zero, etc were all critically acclaimed.

I see now.

 

[ArtHands]

Hey i dont think 3D World is mediocre.

Well in that case, Yooka-Laylee is the mediocre one here then.

 

[Stairouais]

Is this a real thread?

 

[Jonneh3003]

Yooka Laylee is way more fun than 3D World. I don't care if it's archaic (it's not).

And that's cool to have that opinion. They're different styles of 3D platformer that shouldn't really be put head to head. Odyssey and Yooka-Laylee makes more sense. That would be a cool topic to bring up at the end of the year when Yooka-Laylee has also had a few patches.

 

[Sponge]

Was never a big fan of 3D World. All it's got over Yooka imo is a better camera. Although they are both very different styles of 3D Platformers.

 

[boiled goose]

But then the game feels restrictive. Its not free roaming anymore. It doesn't even need to be 3D as it plays pretty much like an isometric 2D game.

Also, i disagree that 3D Worlds camera ensures that the player is less likely to accidentally walk off a narrow ledge or get killed by something that the camera didn't properly show them. Most of the times i got killed was because i couldn't understand the distance between me and an enemy or because i couldn't see what's under Mario's body.

3d world is largely linear in design. Doesn't mean it's not 3d. It being in 3d is a core part of gameplay.

So yes, if YL and 3d world are not trying to do the same thing, free roaming vs linear, then the camera is gonna be different.

For example, the camera in sunshine was Critized. In the more linear galaxy like games, the designers can sacrifice camera freedom for tighter design

 

[ramparter]

Not a big fan of 3DW but I don't think you have a case OP. It has really good level design and platforming mechanics relying on good skill and well executed moves. It's great for what it does.

Yooka Laylee has week platforming and so far many of the challenges just aren't fun. I'm enjoying the world exploration and that's it.

 

[soqquatto]

I don't know, Yooka-Laylee is full with good ideas but they're all implemented badly. controls are halfway there, the camera work is risible, characters are just random items with googly eyes, minigames are awful to control, less funny than any mobile counterpart and have all choppy performances (on PS4 at least). the flow in the levels is almost random and you're required to walk a lot doing nothing with no clear reason. the graphic style is highly irregular, with a section of the hub that's really colorful and nice, and some sections that are drab and uninspired, the cashino is forgettable, the swamp level is murky and unreadable. the "attack moves" are largely useless, because there's no proper "combat" (not that it would be needed) since you can dispatch almost all enemies with no contest. the quiz section are not fun and they impact negatively on the game, with a very slow pace that stop you in your tracks. you also don't gain anything so you're not looking forward to them (and thank god there's only two) and you probably won't remember them fondly.

On the other hand, Super Mario 3D World has perfect controls, a perfectly reasonable camera, consistent quality and doesn't waste your time.

The comparision is not fair, however, because Yooka-Laylee is a low budget game made by a very small team, while Super Mario 3D world had a lot more resources to it.

 

[Orniletter]

Not really, Nintendo's games are targeted at a younger and generally more forgiving audience. Bright colours, simple controls and they can't really screw up unless they don't even try. Reviewers know people who buy the games often want to know if it'll be enjoyed by their kid.

Please don't reply with something amounting to "yeah ok, nintendo games are just for kids" because that's very obviously not what I'm saying.

This is almost worse than whatever the OP is trying to argue.

 

[AGoodODST]

Which is what i'm trying to say in the OP.

I don't imply that Y-L is a better game that 3D World. All i'm saying is that both games use archaic design choices yet only one of them is criticized for doing so.

Because Mario 3D World is designed around the camera and control method. It enhances the gameplay.

The camera in Yooka Laylee is by all accounts a broken pile of shit which negatively impacts the gameplay.

That is why one is criticised.

Anyway the games aren't really that similar.

 

[nkarafo]

Yeah, the OP's fallacy here is to declare one style archaic and the other not.

I'm clearly stating that both use archaic ideas/design choices.

Both.

I also responded that for me archaic doesn't necessarily mean bad.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

Not really, Nintendo's games are targeted at a younger and generally more forgiving audience. Bright colours, simple controls and they can't really screw up unless they don't even try. Reviewers know people who buy the games often want to know if it'll be enjoyed by their kid.

Please don't reply with something amounting to "yeah ok, nintendo games are just for kids" because that's very obviously not what I'm saying.

The games are no easier than your average romp through some CoD or Battlefield single player. Simplified amd accessible is not the same as easy. The last 3 worlds of 3D World are more difficult than the vast bulk of mainstream single player games. I died more in 3D World than any Uncharted game.

 

[Bedlam]

But then the game feels restrictive. Its not free roaming anymore. It doesn't even need to be 3D as it plays pretty much like an isometric 2D game.

Also, i disagree that 3D Worlds camera ensures that the player is less likely to accidentally walk off a narrow ledge or get killed by something that the camera didn't properly show them. Most of the times i got killed was because i couldn't understand the distance between me and an enemy or because i couldn't see what's under Mario's body.

Is, let' say, Uncharted 4 archaic compared to Skyrim because it's more restrictive (not open-world)? It's your "more restrictive = archaic" argument and shows how much of a fallacy it is. You are simply comparing different styles of games and one is not more archaic than the other.

 

[Nosgotham]

lol thats just silly. at least compare two games with the same style. one is a point A to point B level design the other is an open collectathon.

 

[Puruzi]

3D World is platforming perfection. Yooka Laylee is just bad

 

[GiantBreadbug]

Also, it seems like 3DW is almost entirely built around 4-player multiplayer. And it's worth it.

I cleared the majority of this game with three good friends, and I can tell you that it's the definitive way to experience it (imo). I think it's more or less the ultimate refinement of what they set out to do with the four player multi in NSMBWii.

 

[Skyzard]

The games are no easier than your average romp through some CoD or Battlefield single player. Simplified amd accessible is not the same as easy. The last 3 worlds of 3D World are more difficult than the vast bulk of mainstream single player games. I died more in 3D World than any Uncharted game.

People like simple and easy games unless the game is known for its difficulty. Especially reviewers on a deadline imo.

 

[-MB-]

"Bright colors", the political correct way to say "kiddie crap".

 

[mavericktopgun]

100% agreed. Worst Mario ever.

That'd be Mario Land 1 on the Game Boy.

 

[Skyzard]

"Bright colors", the political correct way to say "kiddie crap".

Didn't take long for a strawman.

 

[phanphare]

so your whole argument is essentially that because one uses a different perspective it's inherently more archaic than another game where you have full behind the back camera control?

that seems silly, to be quite honest

why not give specific examples of the level design and execution from 3d world compared to yooka laylee? if your conclusion is correct surely it's backed up by many examples present in the game.

also you didn't take into account the 4-player aspect which for a 3d platformer is hardly archaic. in fact, it's the first time I can remember that being executed well making it rather novel not archaic.

essentially this argument seems flawed from the jump but I'm curious if you can even back it up beyond the broad strokes in the OP

 

[Hindl]

I feel like OP is comparing two totally different styles of platformer. It'd be more accurate to compare Y-L to Galaxy 2.


...jesus, and I just realized that I don't think Wii U had a single exploratory Mario game like 64/sunshine/galaxy.

Galaxy is not exploratory. It's linear as hell. Even Nintendo has said this. Galaxy/2/3DL/3DW are linear get to the end of the level games, while 64/Sunshine/now Odyssey are exploratory games

 

[Sayad]

3D World is actually a good platformer. And its "backward" camera tech serve the game much better than Y-L's camera does.

 

[Jonneh3003]

Ok so here's a speedun of Champion's Road:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pnugp2IjYTQ

The player is taking advantage of the mechanics and playing the level faster than its intended to be played and occasionally breaking sequences. Is there a particular area where you feel the camera has the player at a disadvantage? It seems pretty much flawless to me.

 

[SilentRob]

So, many reviewers complained about Yooka Laylee's "archaic" design right? What i don't understand though is, why isn't Mario 3D World bashed in reviews for the same reason?

People complain about the camera in Y-L. Sure, it's not perfect. But at least it lets you control it in order to see the environment. Mario 3D World's camera doesn't let you see areas behind you. Like at all. It's a restrictive, isometric perspective that most of the times can't even be adjusted to see your surroundings. And no, it isn't made this way for you to see better. One of the reasons i don't enjoy this game is because i can't see where i want to see. This game could have 2D isometric graphics and it would make no difference.

This is an awful argument. What you are saying here is that a bad, player controlled third person camera equals any isometric camera view. The levels in 3D world are very specifically designed around that camera. You can always see what you have to see and if some stuff is hidden or hard to find, that's because they designed it that way and possibly hid a secret behind there.

Yooka-Laylee's camera makes things harder to see and control than the developers wanted to, it makes challenges that are supposed to be fun and intuitive hard and frustrating. I don't even undestand how or why you would compare the two. That's like saying Diablo's camera is just as "archaic" as Ninja Gaiden's, since at least you can control Ninja Gaiden's. Like...what?

 

[nkarafo]

Is, let' say, Uncharted 4 archaic compared to Skyrim because it's more restrictive (not open-world)? It's your "more restrictive = archaic" argument and shows how much of a fallacy it is. You are simply comparing different styles of games and one is not more archaic than the other.

I agree. But it's the same thing many people complain about Y-L. Because it's not restrictive. That's what i'm trying to point out.

A free roaming game will always have an imperfect camera, there is no way around it. It's the price to pay so you can see everywhere, any time. The only way to have a "perfect camera" is to restrict it. See where i'm going with this?

 

[sinonobu]

3d world is the worst 3d mario game.

But it's still not mediocre game like Yooka Laylee.

 

[tapedeck]

100% agreed. Worst Mario ever.

You misspelled Sunshine.

 

[Joe Shlabotnik]

It was far from optimum in my play through. All the time i wanted to adjusted it but couldn't. All the time i needed to see an area i just passed but i couldn't.

I'm not saying that isometric 2D doesn't have it's place. But in a world with 3D games that don't restrict your view, it's an archaic design. Now archaic doesn't mean bad mind you. But in Yooka-Laylee's case, apparently it is.

Archaic means outdated or obsolescent. It generally has a negative connotation. Use a different word if you didn't intend it to be negative.

 

[hiim_haz]

But both are archaic in their own way.


It's explained in the OP

That argument is pretty weak, though.

Using the same logic as your original post, most games are archaic because they use an analog stick to move. Like, what argument are you trying to make here?

 

[boiled goose]

People like simple and easy games.

Now you're being defensive and walking back with weird "strawman" accusations.

You say easy and accessible is kiddy.
People say sm3dw is no more easier than any mainstream single Player campaign.

Then You say people like easy games. Wut?

Just accept when you're wrong sometimes lol. It's ok.

 

[sixteen-bit]

no one complained b/c it's funner.