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[Polioliolio]

Never challenge the defense force. There's a real discussion to be had here, but most the thread is going to be littered with shitty posts from people taking offense about your 3D world statements.

One answer to your question though, might be that even though 3D world may not be as open and whatnot, it's limits are intentional for efficient and functional design.

 

[MrBadger]

The run button is a way bigger issue than the camera.

Why?

 

[Puruzi]

Seriously, to me this game should have as strong a legacy as Super Mario World does.

My man.

 

[Xun]

The run button is a way bigger issue than the camera.

The run button is one of the best things about the game.

It complements the game beautifully.

 

[XandBosch]

Mario 3d World, like every modern Mario game tells you where to go, what to do, and very strongly hints at how to do it once you get there. Nintendo have become masters at making people feel accomplished while offering the least amount of actual challenge at least on the critical path, particularly of the figuring stuff out variety.

Y-L has alienated a lot of people by remaining true to its roots of being an adventure game disguised as a platform game, it's not particularly hard, but half the fun is figuring out where to go, what to do and how to do it. It's very easy to write off the lack of a minimap, objective markers, plainly laid out entrances to levels, etc as being 'archaic'.

Tell that to Champion's Road.

 

[Lt.Chips]

There's a difference between archaic and classic.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

Why are we talking about projecting 3D World as an isometric 2D game? What does that have to do with anything?

 

[FinalAres]

So you want the game to be more similar to the Galaxy games or 64/Sunshine of which there are two of each already, rather than 3D Land-style which is much newer and only one of. EDIT: And 3D World approaches in a new way as well with the addition of multiplayer.

I didn't say I wanted it to be like 64 or Galaxy. In fact when Galaxy 2 came out I rolled my eyes, but also accepted that you can't be original every time.

 

[Dark Cloud]

My man.

Ding ding ding. This game felt like Super Mario World in 3D...heh it's called Super Mario 3D World.

 

[Pinky]

I haven't played Yooka-Laylee yet, so I can't comment on it. However, there is nothing archaic about SM3DW. The game is platforming bliss.

 

[Chezzymann]

I think if yooka laylee had the same amount of polish in its controls and clever ideas in its level design as 3D world did people wouldn't be making the archaic complaint.

 

[VDenter]

You don't need 120 stars/Shines to beat any of those games. You don't have to play every level in those games to "beat" them so this comparison is mostly pointless. The progression to different points is locked to an extent (main floor basement castle in 64) but you can skip whole courses and beat SM64 so what is the actual argument you are making?

To 100% all of those games 3D World is the hardest. (You can make an argument for sunshine due to tons of bullshit design I suppose) If fully completing the games isnt a requirement then what is the argument? The games are structured differently. You can beat SMW in 1 hour if you skip 70 levels.

Not sure what point you are trying to make exactly? No other 3D Mario game with the exception of 3D World can be beaten with just basic jumping. All other 3D games asked from the player to at least understand some of the more complex mechanics in order to get through some of the later missions. There is nothing like this in 3D World. If the game is going to downgrade the mechanics to such a degree and its going to take 6 world to get challenging its going to be less engaging than other games in the series no matter how you slice it. It does not matter if the game is polished if it takes so long to get properly started. At least in 64/Sunshine and Galaxy you can go to the more challenging levels much sooner and they required a bit more than just properly timed jumps to get through a level.

 

[King_Moc]

The poster above me made an isometric sketch of an area in the first Mario 64 level. Use this as a guide and try to figure out how many 3D world levels would also work like this by yourself.

And this is relevant how?

 

[klier]

So, many reviewers complained about Yooka Laylee's "archaic" design right? What i don't understand though is, why isn't Mario 3D World bashed in reviews for the same reason?

People complain about the camera in Y-L. Sure, it's not perfect. But at least it lets you control it in order to see the environment. Mario 3D World's camera doesn't let you see areas behind you. Like at all. It's a restrictive, isometric perspective that most of the times can't even be adjusted to see your surroundings. And no, it isn't made this way for you to see better. One of the reasons i don't enjoy this game is because i can't see where i want to see. This game could have 2D isometric graphics and it would make no difference.

And how about the controls? Yooka Laylee at least respects the analog stick technology. Mario 3D World doesn't care, it could use the D-Pad and there would be no difference. You even press "B" to run. That's like the most archaic you can be.

So my question is, why a 3D game, that poses as a 3D platformer and even has 3D in it's title and plays like an isometric 2D SNES game isn't considered archaic but Yooka-Laylee that plays like a 3D N64 platformer is?

Quoting for insanity.

 

[Doc_Drop]

One is good archaic, the other "meh" archaic.

As I said earlier;

Archaic = Bad
Classic = Good

classic is used in reviews to refer to something old/traditional that is a positive, and archaic is usually used for poor old/traditional elements

 

[LordKasual]

Archaic? Super Mario 3D World?

Nah, cannot agree with that. Just because the camera was locked doesn't mean it was archaic.

In fact I feel like free-moving 3D camera in many games is the real archaic mechanic. So many franchises would benefit from better camera control.

 

[nkarafo]

Never challenge the defense force. There's a real discussion to be had here, but most the thread is going to be littered with shitty posts from people taking offense about your 3D world statements.

One answer to your question though, might be that even though 3D world may not be as open and whatnot, it's limits are intentional for efficient and functional design.

Thanks for not being angry.

I realize that these are intentional choices. But this applies for both games. I see reviews complaining about Y-L for having "archaic ideas". And i argued that Mario 3D World also does that. And if you don't agree about the camera, i think the controls argument still applies.

The execution of these ideas should be criticized yes. But not the ideas themselves.

 

[Gartooth]

The funny thing is that Yooka Laylee feels like you are collecting way less in the moment to moment gameplay than a Rare collectathon. It also has way more platforming challenges, interesting setups with the different moves, and variety of challenges. The problem is that a large number of it just isn't fun and feels poorly designed. Those that would mention YL as why Banjo was never good don't realize that the saving graces of the game are what it borrowed from Banjo.

 

[Bergerac]

Your points would be better served if you justified the design as 'enjoyable' in being retro, rather than try to pretend it isn't outmoded. For all the increased opportunities for faults with 3D control, 2D is behind 3D. It is not a parallel just because it is enjoyable. It is retro. Ergo, 2D is 'archaic'.

Some people still watch and enjoy silent films as perfectly serviceable. I still enjoy greyscale films from 60, 70, 80, or so, years ago. Doesn't change anything. Doesn't make them modern.

OP's point is valid. If a criticism is raised at one game for being literally 'archaic' in an aspect, you'd better aim the same barrel elsewhere if it fits. It doesn't matter if 3D World is generally 'better', if it's using retro design, it's 'archaic'. That you like it, changes nothing, in this context.

So how about we address the actual point, the criticism of comparative review versus favouritism, instead of being offended that someone labelled game design from 30 years ago 'archaic'?

Which it is. [/Chigurh]

If anything you should be arguing that you like it because it is archaic.

 

[Thud]

LOL I see the Yooka-Laylee backers have reached the "I'm gonna insult a game YOU like" stage of review denial.

Hope you guys are able to reach acceptance soon.

Please stop pointing fingers.

I'm a proud backer of Yooka Laylee, but I'm not shit talking about other games.

 

[JimJamJones]

Did I suddenly end up in an alternate universe where archaic means something different when used in the same sentence as Mario 3D World?

 

[jimboton]

Tell that to Champion's Road.

Did you miss the 'critical path' bit on my post? It's right next to the bolded part..

It's a purely skill based challenge, and strictly optional, which makes it more palatable to most critics. No need to dismiss it as unfashionably archaic.

 

[AGoodODST]

The poster above me made an isometric sketch of an area in the first Mario 64 level. Use this as a guide and try to figure out how many 3D world levels would also work like this by yourself.

Well off the top of my head, the first stage definitely wouldn't due to the height differences unless you zoomed the camera out or shifted the perspective to an awful degree.

The second underground stage wouldn't work isometrically at all as it is mostly viewed side on and plays with this idea.

The third stage is climbing the big hill so that is out.

The Plessi stage would work I guess.

The carnival stage would not work due to issues similarly to the first stage but also due to the shifting nature of the camera.

The Castle stage could work, but again, similar issues to the first stage where a change in the zoom or perspective would be needed.

So that is one level at best out of the the entire first world. You would have to alter nearly every level to make them work in a 2D isometric fashion.

 

[kitchenmotors]

I seem to remember a LOT of people complaining about Mario 3D World. Mainly for not being like the Galaxy games.

Yeah, it was bashed when the first trailer game out. Once people played the game, I feel like there was very little complaints at that point.

This thread just seems like trying to lift up a mediocre game by bringing down a great, polished one. No point.

 

[Milly Osworth]

It's funny because he posted the same thing before in this very thread, not enough people took his bait so he tried again but with a bit more extreme post.

At least you rewarded him with a gif now! Now he can sleep well tonight under his Winnie the Pooh sheets.

 

[piratethingy]

Sounds to me like people aren't taking the time to properly explain why they dislike YL, instead tossing around a buzzword because it's easier.

There's a ton to dislike though.

 

[nkarafo]

Your points would be better served if you justified the design as 'enjoyable' in being retro, rather than try to pretend it isn't outmoded. For all the increased opportunities for faults with 3D control, 2D is behind 3D. It is not a parallel just because it is enjoyable. It is retro. Ergo, 2D is 'archaic'.

Some people still watch and enjoy silent films as perfectly serviceable. I still enjoy greyscale films from 60, 70, 80, or so, years ago. Doesn't change anything. Doesn't make them modern.

OP's point is valid. If a criticism is raised at one game for being literally 'archaic' in an aspect, you'd better aim the same barrel elsewhere if it fits. It doesn't matter if 3D World is generally 'better', if it's using retro design, it's 'archaic'. That you like it, changes nothing, in this context.

So how about we address the actual point, the criticism of comparative review versus favouritism, instead of being offended that someone labelled game design from 30 years ago 'archaic'?

Which it is. [/Chigurh]

If anything you should be arguing that you like it because it is archaic.

Also, i use the word "archaic" because reviewers use it, to make my argument. Even though it's clear in the OP i don't like Mario 3D World that much, i'm not trying to convince anyone that Y-L is a better game. Heck, i don't remember mentioning anywhere in this thread that i even like the game in general.

 

[King_Moc]

Did you miss the 'critical path' bit on my post? It's right next to the bolded part..

It's a purely skill based challenge, and strictly optional, which makes it more palatable to most critics. No need to dismiss it as unfashionably archaic.

The 'critical path' of almost every Nintendo game is generally fairly easy. It's an integral part of the way they design games.

 

[piratethingy]

Not really, Nintendo's games are targeted at a younger and generally more forgiving audience. Bright colours, simple controls and they can't really screw up unless they don't even try. Reviewers know people who buy the games often want to know if it'll be enjoyed by their kid.

Please don't reply with something amounting to "yeah ok, nintendo games are just for kids" because that's very obviously not what I'm saying.

That's not what you're saying, I understand.

What you are saying is so wrong it's hard not to treat it as blatant bait however.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

Not sure what point you are trying to make exactly. No other 3D Mario game with the exception of 3D World can be beaten with just basic jumping.

So? What does that have to do with difficulty? Shpuld we pull out the tons of simple platformers that are tough as nails? Also, you can absolutely beat galaxy 1 and 2 with simple jumping.

All other 3D games asked from the player to at least understand some of the more complex mechanics in order to get through some of the later missions.

So is your argument they are harder or they need more mechanics to complete? Because they definitely are not more difficult.

There is nothing like this in 3D World. If the game is going to downgrade the mechanics to such a degree and its going to take 6 world to get challenging its going to be less engaging than other games in the series no matter how you slice it.

The other games according to you also take til later missions to get engaging so what is your point?

It does not matter if the game is polished if it takes so long to get properly started. At least in 64/Sunshine and Galaxy you can go to the more challenging levels much sooner and they required a bit more than just properly timed jumps to get through a level.

Eh you really need to replay these games and time how long it takes you to find challenge. I flat out do not agree with your assessments.

 

[RM8]

I never played 3D World but I had zero camera issues with 3D Land. Heck 3D Land was pretty freaking awesome, I don't know why I haven't bought the likely even better sequel.

 

[nkarafo]

Well off the top of my head, the first stage definitely wouldn't due to the height differences unless you zoomed the camera out or shifted the perspective to an awful degree.

The second underground stage wouldn't work isometrically at all as it is mostly viewed side on and plays with this idea.

The third stage is climbing the big hill so that is out.

The Plessi stage would work I guess.

The carnival stage would not work due to issues similarly to the first stage but also due to the shifting nature of the camera.

The Castle stage could work, but again, similar issues to the first stage where a change in the zoom or perspective would be needed.

So that is one level at best out of the the entire first world. You would have to alter nearly every level to make them work in a 2D isometric fashion.

Thanks for trying to answer this.

Allow me to disagree about the first level though. Almost all of the surfaces you need to be on are visible without a change of perspective. The heighten areas could still be visible by simply scrolling the map. I don't think shifting is needed as much. A slight zoom out would be enough.

Also the third stage would work because you only climb a single surface of the hill, you don't go around any other. No rotation of the level or the camera is needed.

But that's my opinion.

 

[kitchenmotors]

It's funny because he posted the same thing before in this very thread, not enough people took his bait so he tried again but with a bit more extreme post.

At least you rewarded him with a gif now! Now he can sleep well tonight under his Winnie the Pooh sheets.

His posts are usually bait. I just ignore them.

 

[freethoughtbubble]

Doesn't this boil down to semantics?

Archaic has a negative connotation. When an old-fashioned thing is a con to an experience we call it archaic. It is deemed to be obsolete.

When something old-fashioned is seen positively ("holds up") we use other words, like classic or vintage. They are deemed to have withstood the test of time.

I keep seeing YL fans unable to process the fact that many people just didn't like YL's gameplay, so much of which was cribbed from the Banjo games. They thought it was bad, hence archaic. The consensus around 3D World is that it was good.

The different receptions make perfect sense.

 

[Tain]

The widespread 3D World hate and Galaxy love are part of why I'm very careful about Nintendo Game Opinions.

 

[MrBadger]

Sounds to me like people aren't taking the time to properly explain why they dislike YL, instead tossing around a buzzword because it's easier.

There's a ton to dislike though.

True People are throwing around the word "archaic" but it's a vague descriptive term that can mean anything. A shit camera is something old games have, jumping on enemies is as well. But there's obviously one that's less welcome in modern games.

 

[Barry Burton]

3D Land/World are not archaic at all. It's classic Mario design fully realized in 3D for the first time. SM64, its successors and other games of that ilk went after something else entirely.

 

[compo]

A restrictive camera isn't archaic just because it's how original 2D isometric games were done in the 90's. If you're labeling something as archaic solely based on the time era where it was introduced, then by that logic, all 2D games are archaic.

And I'm not really buying the blind spot argument either. There are plenty of situations where you have to make blind maneuvers in free camera 3D games. Like if you have to jump up to a platform that's too high to fit in the most zoomed out camera. So you either have to position the camera up your character's ass, in which case you can't see the ground you're running on anymore, or get a feeling for where the platform is in free look, and make an educated guess jump.

Regardless, comparing free level 3D to linear 3D is an apples to oranges comparison, so this whole argument is moot.

 

[Calamari41]

I had no idea so many people hated Super Mario 3D World. Huh.

They never got over that initial feeling of betrayal when Iwata revealed it instead of Super Mario 64-2 at E3 2013. Even when the game turned out really great and otherwise universally praised, the same few people infected every 3D World thread for a year or two incessantly saying that it "isn't a 'proper' 3D Mario game."

 

[Chezzymann]

Doesn't this boil down to semantics?

Archaic has a negative connotation. When an old-fashioned thing is a con to an experience we call it archaic. It is deemed to be obsolete.

When something old-fashioned is seen positively ("holds up") we use other words, like classic or vintage. They are deemed to have withstood the test of time.

I keep seeing YL fans unable to process the fact that many people just didn't like YL's gameplay, so much of which was cribbed from the Banjo games. They thought it was bad, hence archaic. The consensus around 3D World is that it was good.

The different receptions make perfect sense.

Yup, thats how i see it.

 

[Natiko]

Super Mario 3D World is fine, it's not archaic. The main issues it has is being inferior to 3D Land and the catsuit making the game feel boring in most levels.

 

[nkarafo]

His posts are usually bait. I just ignore them.

Show me these posts you are talking about or gtfo with this shit posting.

Edit: My bad

 

[Milly Osworth]

Show me these posts you are talking about or gtfo with this shit posting.

It was about Skydude, unless that's your account too.

 

[AGoodODST]

Thanks for trying to answer this.

Allow me to disagree about the first level though. Almost all of the surfaces you need to be on are visible without a change of perspective. The heighten areas could still be visible by simply scrolling the map. I don't think shifting is needed as much. A slight zoom out would be enough.

Also the third stage would work because you only climb a single surface of the hill, you don't go around any other.

But that's my opinion.

In the first stage for example, the big hill with the rabbit on it would be difficult to do. As would the part that is viewed side on with the cat goombas and the green star hidden below.

Kind of off topic but I'm now actually trying to think of games that try to do the 3D platformer thing but in a 2D isometric way. I know there is that super shitty Sonic game. Wasn't there a Banjo game on the GBA that tried to do this?

 

[kitchenmotors]

Show me these posts you are talking about or gtfo with this shit posting.

We weren't even responding to you, why don't you read the posts instead of accusing shit posting.

 

[Soulscribe]

Honestly Yooka looks a lil rough but I'm all for driving 3D World down a peg because it's by far the worst console Mario entry to me. 👀

 

[Oddish1]

Also, i use the word "archaic" because reviewers use it, to make my argument. Even though it's clear in the OP i don't like Mario 3D World that much, i'm not trying to convince anyone that Y-L is a better game. Heck, i don't remember mentioning anywhere in this thread that i even like the game in general.

You can understand why it's a very confusing argument to understand. You're questioning why reviewers are calling Yooka-Laylee 'archaic' but not 3D World when they have entirely different cameras and gameplay. If you want to talk about whether 3D World is 'archaic' then why bring Yooka-Laylee into it, and if you want a comparison between Yooka-Laylee and 3D World then bringing reviewers opinion on one game but not the other is weird. I still don't really understand what you're arguing because, again, the way 3D World and Yooka-Laylee handle their cameras and controls aren't similar at all.

 

[Sephzilla]

Mario 3D World was great though

 

[nkarafo]

We weren't even responding to you, why don't you read the posts instead of accusing shit posting.

It was about Skydude, unless that's your account too.

Got lost with the replies. I apologize.

 

[MrBadger]

In the first stage for example, the big hill with the rabbit on it would be difficult to do. As would the part that is viewed side on with the cat goombas and the green star hidden below.

Kind of off topic but I'm now actually trying to think of games that try to do the 3D platformer thing but in a 2D isometric way. I know there is that super shitty Sonic game. Wasn't there a Banjo game on the GBA that tried to do this?

There's quite a few on the GBA. Off the top of my head, Rayman Hoodlums Revenge. It's not very good.

There's also Spyro Season of Ice

And Grunty's Revenge, as you said

When I was younger I kept accidentally buying these kinds of games and hating them. I don't really miss them