Icyflamez96
Member
That's not a fact. You're making an assumption that she knew when Zeno was going to destroy the universes if Goku didn't interfere. That was never stated and can only be speculated. You can also assume otherwise too.
Dragon Ball Super |OT6| Put your back into it.
- Thread starter ArchedThunder
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That's not a fact. You're making an assumption that she knew when Zeno was going to destroy the universes if Goku didn't interfere. That was never stated and can only be speculated. You can also assume otherwise too.
it turns out that every universe has its own freeza and it isn't just a u6/u7 parallel thing
and they all have the exact same personality, attacks and transformations just because
ArchedThunder
Banned
Reizo Ryuu
Member
No, it's very much a fact that she says what she says, I'm not making that assumption, it's what she says.
Anything else not stated in this scene is an assumption, whether that is "vados doesn't know what she's talking about" or "vados is lying".
Both of those assumptions are based on nothing.
Host Samurai
Member
Goku in Super would have totally let Cell become Perfect and let Majin Buu hatch
Bingo. But my head canon =(
The more I think about it, yeah. Haha.
I liked the theory that Vegeta and Goku's personalities got mixed up in the first Vegito fusion. Though I guess it doesn't really work now that they have done it a second time
B-but the fanservice and the money
When the U6 Saiyans complete their evolution to a harem anime they'll have plenty of fanservice and merchandising money. There'll be a Legendary Super Saiyan Kale dakimakura in every household.
Icyflamez96
Member
That's not what I said wasn't a fact.
If you think Vados's words actually prove anything, then you'd have to be assuming that she has inside information on when Zeno was going to blow up the planets if Goku wasn't a factor. As I said twice, I don't think she's lying, but her words also don't hold any weight in regards to what you're indicating it does unless you start making assumptions.
But you're making the assumption that there is some unknown factor. It's literally just as simple as Zeno wanting to clean up the trash, angels are in the know, and Goku's idea for a tournament gives them a way to have fun with it. That's all there is to it.
Mister Wolf
Member
Its gonna be a better version of Tenchi Muyo GXP.
Icyflamez96
Member
That's not an assumption. There is an unknown factor. We don't know if Vados actually knew when Zeno would destroy the universes without Goku's interference. If you say that Vados's words prove what Reizo was arguing, then you'd have to assume that Vados had inside information. We have no word on if she actually had the info, and to me, she wasn't making an absolutely informed statement.
It looks like it's eating cotton candy.
Reizo Ryuu
Member
but...vados says it, why would I not think it proves anything? Why would I assume there's some other hidden factor at play here? There's literally no precedent to think otherwise of what vados says.
Again there's no assumption being made here, it's literally just taking what vados says as how it is because she says it and has given us no reason to believe otherwise.
It's like vados said "well 1+1= 2", but you are going "....but what if, and hear me out here, 1+1 = ningen?"
Icyflamez96
Member
Why do you think Vados saying that means she actually has that inside information when it wasn't said? You would definitely have to assume that Vados did have info on that if you think her words hold that much weight. As I said above to StaticJam, I don't think she was lying, but I don't think it was making a totally informed statement, which means her words wouldn't prove anything. I don't even think the Grand Priest knew when Zeno would destroy the universes if it weren't for Goku, let alone Vados.
Reizo Ryuu
Member
Why? Because there's no precedent that proves otherwise.
When you accuse someone of something the burden of proof lies with the accuser, not the defendant.
When you say "well vados has no idea what she's talking about" you have to prove why, but that proof doesn't exist.
So as it stands there's no reason to doubt what vados says.
Future Trunks timeline was still there until it got finally deleted. so parallel Vados was just dormant cause parallel champa got killed and obvs every universe ningen level got to bottom levels, and yet Zenos didn't delete them. obvs present parallel Vados isn't thanking Goku for giving them a chance to escape deletion so the whole Vados thing is moot
Goku at least sped up the universe deletion at least a good 16 years or so
I guess one universe may survive but still
Goku at least sped up the universe deletion at least a good 16 years or so
I guess one universe may survive but still
Reizo Ryuu
Member
An alternate timeline isn't proof though, any number of variables could be the reason for it still existing. The future timeline was already different from the present in Z, thus anything you say about it that hasn't been disclosed is based on assumptions.
Icyflamez96
Member
Why do you keep using the word lie? I've said multiple times I don't think she's lying, as if she's intentionally trying to deceive people. I simply think her statement is not entirely informed, which means her saying what she said would not "prove" what you're arguing. I don't think the Grand Priest knew when Zeno would destroy the universes if it weren't for Goku, and I definitely don't think Vados does, and there is absolutely no evidence that she knew. The only way for you to think her words prove that is if you assume that she had that info.
Reizo Ryuu
Member
....uhh what? Maybe read my post again, lies in that context doesn't mean deception lol
there aren't "any number of variables"; zeno only thinks "there are too many universes"
that's the only variable: n = number of universes
and the timelines have only diverged since Cell saga. I really doubt the ningen levels are drastically different, and U7 was already almost bottom, and earth was decimated and without a kaiohshin or GoD (even before Zamasu!), so if anything, there is a chance U7 is at the bottom
and since U7 is still there in the FT timeline, and it is probably the worst universe, or second worst universe, it stands to reason the deletion of the bottom eight universes hasn't happened
conclusion: the deletion of extra universes is not on a strict timetable, it could have waited a long time more if not for Goku
re: Vados: I don't think Vados is necessarily wrong or lying, but she is leaving out the info that the deletion did not have to happen in the moment it happened. Vados has an extremely long life, so if Zeno decides to delete the universes a thousand or a million years later, to her it is at almost the same time
Icyflamez96
Member
Wow u rite.
Mister Wolf
Member
Exactly.
Reizo Ryuu
Member
Lolno, it's an alternate universe, you're imposing what you know about the present onto the alternate universe, but those are just assumptions, any number of things could've happened for things to go differently (these are the variables I mean).
You can't take what you know about the present and just transplant it onto the alternate timeline, because that timeline has been different from the present since the start, and doing things in the present doesn't affect the alternate timeline at all.
Doesn't really though, you're still asking for proof that vados needs to be privy to some unknown factor, instead you need to be proving why what vados is stating is incorrect; that's how burden of proof works. However, since there is no precedent for what you are claiming, the proof you'd need to provide doesn't exist.
if you start positing "any number of variables" for the deletion of FT's timeline not suffering the mass deletion, then the burden of proof shifts to you
again, the universes have only diverged since Cell, which was what...10 years ago? almost nothing compared to the lifespans of zeno and the angels
if you start saying that things could have been different there, well, start posting what went different
the simplest explanation is that the mass deletion did not happen without Goku for at least another 16 years, and may have not happened at all
Vados is not incorrect: she is just omitting the fact that you cannot say that the mass deletion was gonna happen now. it could have happened any number of years later
again, the universes have only diverged since Cell, which was what...10 years ago? almost nothing compared to the lifespans of zeno and the angels
if you start saying that things could have been different there, well, start posting what went different
the simplest explanation is that the mass deletion did not happen without Goku for at least another 16 years, and may have not happened at all
Vados is not incorrect: she is just omitting the fact that you cannot say that the mass deletion was gonna happen now. it could have happened any number of years later
Reizo Ryuu
Member
Lol no that's not what I'm "positing".
then what is your explanation for the FT timeline still being there
Reizo Ryuu
Member
I don't have one? That's literally what I said.
Any explanation at this time is based solely on assumptions.
the simplest explanation is that the mass deletion did not have to happen right now
there's no assumption there
Mister Wolf
Member
Just admit it was Goku's fault Reizo you'll feel better haha.
Reizo Ryuu
Member
Perhaps, but there's nothing that confirms this as an actual fact.
ArchedThunder
Banned
Great Priest specifically said that Zeno always thought there were too many universes, but the tournament gave him an excuse to do something about it. Zeno destroying universes was more of a "I'll do it when I feel like it" kind of thing, so yeah, Goku sped things along.
The angels not being surprised about them being safe could have just been because the Great Priest told them before the exhibition or something.
The angels not being surprised about them being safe could have just been because the Great Priest told them before the exhibition or something.
fact: the FT timeline is still there
Reizo Ryuu
Member
And yajirobe never got shot in the chest by android 18.
Just because the timeline still exists, doesn't mean the order of events are the same, because the present doesn't affect the alternate timeline.
Mister Wolf
Member
Exactly.
Icyflamez96
Member
What's the proof that she is entirely informed with her statement? Because I think there is more indication that she wouldn't have known when Zeno would've chosen to take action. The reason I don't think the Grand Priest really knew is because of how he was like said something like "Zeno often said there were too many universes, and Goku's tournament proposal was the perfect opportunity to act on that". And if Grand Priest didn't know, Vados definitely wouldn't know unless she was the mastermind behind it all.
Basically how I saw it.
but....I doubt yajirobe or whatever convinced Zeno of delaying the mass deletion
again, you are the one mentioning that there are any events could have changed things
the simplest explanation is that Goku sped things up a lot
events have only diverged since 10 years ago or so, and zeno has barely any contact with the rest of the universe. even if the lack of goku meant dramatic changes in U6 and U7 beyond earth, chances are zeno's ideas about having too many universe were unchanged
maybe the grand priest has been working subtly trying to convince zeno of not deleting universes, but Goku came along, with another zeno! and also just cast everything as a fight and zeno got obsessed with the tourney and the grand priest alternatives got thrown away
Reizo Ryuu
Member
You're not supposed to be asking for proof in regards to the legitimacy of her statement, you need to provide proof of what she's saying not being correct.
*smh*, it's obviously not about yajirobe....the point is that the timelines are wholly seperate things with their own events that don´t influence each other.
More planets and life for Shin to destroy because of his incompetence.
ArchedThunder
Banned
Maybe the other Kaioshin would be there too to pick up his slack.
but they were the same timeline until FTrunks killed Freeza. things cannot have been _that_ different, at least from the scale Zeno worries about
do notice that FT's Zeno just does not give a fuck about the universe's state. the Zamasus managed to kill literally everyone else and Zeno did not do shit until summoned by Goku. the Zamasus' genocide cannot have been _that_ fast. conclusion: Zeno doesn't act quickly; for him a trillion of dead ningen more or less does not even register in his radar
But the tournament will prove he is least incompetent or something like that.
Also, if all the universes just got combined, a few things about the future trunks arc make a tad more sense (Mainly how did Zamasu do so much damage without Zeno intervening, if it was contained to a single combined Universe he may have had less oversight)
Icyflamez96
Member
In this case, you should. The show hasn't established Vados as being a character who is in the absolute know with Zeno, so you can't act as if things she says by default holds weight to what you were arguing, unless there is proof that she knew (which there isn't), or you want to assume things. Grand Priest is basically Zeno's right hand man and it's indicated that not even he knew, for the reasons me and Arched stated above.
edit: New page, so technically "stated *below"??
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