The General Star Trek Thread of Earl Grey Tea, Baseball, and KHHHAAAANNNN

Man God said:
I still don't get how the Talaxians got that far into the Delta quadrant. Voyager is basically right at the edge of the Beta Quadrant when the final episode takes place and the war that would have forced this convoy out here happened when Neelix was a young man, and Talax is basically all the way at the edge of the Delta quadrant. 25 years at warp 9+.
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Yeah I thought of that too....writers should have just made them a much older colony but that's expecting too much from these writers.
 
I always appreciated Nechayev, in that she clearly understands that you don't get to be best buds with the people you have to command.
 
Admirals in Star Trek are clearly an intentional application of the peter principle. Starfleet doesn't fire anyone really, apparently unless they send them to a prison colony (Tom Paris and his TNG doppelganger), and even then they still might redraft them. So what do they do with people who suck? Promote them to where they can do the least harm.

This is why Janeway became an Admiral after bungling her way around the galaxy.
 
maharg said:
Admirals in Star Trek are clearly an intentional application of the peter principle. Starfleet doesn't fire anyone really, apparently unless they send them to a prison colony (Tom Paris and his TNG doppelganger), and even then they still might redraft them. So what do they do with people who suck? Promote them to where they can do the least harm.

This is why Janeway became an Admiral after bungling her way around the galaxy.
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Was Locarno sent to prison at the end of that episode? It's been awhile since I've seen that episode so I can't remember.
 
Fuchsdh said:
Nah, just expelled.
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That's what I thought I remembered. I do remember he took one for the team leaving only the rest of them having their academic credits for that year negated and having to repeat that year (though in "Lower Decks" Sito has apparently graduated while Wesley is still in the academy?)

New topic: You know for all the shit seasons 1 & 2 of TNG get, I'd rather take them than the lackluster 6 & 7 any day of the week. For starters, for all the unevenness of the first two seasons there's a willingness to get better. Sure there was a clunkyness at the start since they were still trying to find the tone of the show & its characters. But there was an enthusiasm to get better that just wasn't there during the latter two seasons. It felt like everyone was just coasting on fumes. That and a lot of the faults we find with latter trek first started to appear here. Yeah, Season 1 had "Code of Honor" but aside from that (which is indefensible) you had some really great episodes like Skin of Evil or The Measure of a Man or Q Who. The episode in seasons 6 & 7 were just there. Not great or bad. Just existing for the sole purpose for having episodes.

That and the first two seasons excel just for the awesome late 80s cheese factor alone.
 
I mean, S1 and 2 were basically Roddenberry carryovers from TOS - S2 particularly since it was just Phase 2 scripts remade into TNG scripts because of the strike.

Once Roddenberry was "Ken Kutaragi'ed" into a corner office, the new writers came in and the show began to evolve.
 
firehawk12 said:
I mean, S1 and 2 were basically Roddenberry carryovers from TOS - S2 particularly since it was just Phase 2 scripts remade into TNG scripts because of the strike.

Once Roddenberry was "Ken Kutaragi'ed" into a corner office, the new writers came in and the show began to evolve.
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That was only true of a few episodes though at the beginning of the season. Most notably "The Child".
 
Henchmen21 said:
That's what I thought I remembered. I do remember he took one for the team leaving only the rest of them having their academic credits for that year negated and having to repeat that year (though in "Lower Decks" Sito has apparently graduated while Wesley is still in the academy?)

New topic: You know for all the shit seasons 1 & 2 of TNG get, I'd rather take them than the lackluster 6 & 7 any day of the week. For starters, for all the unevenness of the first two seasons there's a willingness to get better. Sure there was a clunkyness at the start since they were still trying to find the tone of the show & its characters. But there was an enthusiasm to get better that just wasn't there during the latter two seasons. It felt like everyone was just coasting on fumes. That and a lot of the faults we find with latter trek first started to appear here. Yeah, Season 1 had "Code of Honor" but aside from that (which is indefensible) you had some really great episodes like Skin of Evil or The Measure of a Man or Q Who. The episode in seasons 6 & 7 were just there. Not great or bad. Just existing for the sole purpose for having episodes.

That and the first two seasons excel just for the awesome late 80s cheese factor alone.
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The bit I always liked about "The First Duty" is that Locarno is true to his word. He's willing to throw their dead friend under the bus for the sake of everyone else's career, but when he's talking to Wesley about sticking up for his squad, he actually means it. It would have been easy to torpedo Wesley in retaliation for him opening his mouth, but he doesn't.

As for 1&2 being better than 6&7.... eh. Stuff like "Schisms", "Tapestry", "Chain of Command", "Starship Mine", "Timescape"... that's just Season 6. I'd agree that the show never maintained the heights of seasons 3 and 4, but I've never known a show to.
 
Season six of TNG and DS9 are great. Season 7 on both is where they start to lag. TNG in particular has a bunch of dumpster fires in there with a few solid episodes and the only really great thing being the finale, which is still the standout as far as Trek finales go.
 
Season 7 of TNG is quite shit with some of the worst episodes in the form of Genesis and Sub Rosa but it also has All Good Things. Season 1 and Season 2 of TNG are quite odd and the first 10 episodes of Season 1 are quite shit...including Farpoint which you just have to watch for the sake of All Good Things. But Season 2 has quite a lot of good episodes.

Also Enterprise season 3 and season 4 was truly fantastic ! I loved the season long Xindi arc, I guess the show never recovered from the damage done by Voyager and Season 1/2 of Enterprise.

If only Ronald D Moore got the chance to make Voyager the way he wanted. Then again he probably would've just made Battlestar Galactica with a Star Trek coat of paint and we would never have gotten The Doctor or Seven, both of who are truly amazing and are two of the best characters by any measure. Every single one of the episodes concentrating around him or Seven are good, that's some great consistency there and I guess it has a lot to do with Robert Picardo and Jeri Ryan.


DS9 is my favourite Star Trek show but is also the only Star Trek show where I can't just pick up and watch a random episode.
 
Don't get me wrong, they're not top-tier Trek. But they're both fun and weird. "Sub Rosa" is interesting in that it's probably the last chronological episode I can think of in Trek that feels like it was ripped out of the original series.
 
So finally watched Endgame...


Jesus that was terrible, they didn't have to include the time travel subplot at all and the Seven - Chakotay romance? Pair one of the best characters with one of the most boring? And wouldn't the temporal agents just undo all of this anyways?

Would have been so much better if they had spent the first hour or so getting home through the borg transwarp thing and then 20-30 min of them finally getting home.

I guess it's fitting that the final episode is brought down by terrible writing.

Anyways as far as finals go I rank them TNG>>>>>DS9>ENT>VOY, I'll leave TOS out because it didn't really get a final episode for it's run unless we count the movies.
 
Yeah everyone wishes we got to actually see them at home for a while. Getting home and then facing a Borg threat would have been better.

I rate it over Enterprise final episode though.
 
Started a TNG binge.

wew that first season
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Voyager finale suffers from what the rest of the show suffers from it spends time building up something and then resets it. Now resets are common in all Star Trek shows except for DS9 and he last 2 seasons of Enterprise but Voyager takes it an extra step forward by doing it over and over again and building it's big stories around resets.

Here's an example, one of the complaints was hat we don't see the crew get back home and adjust to life..not even for 5 minutes. But at the start of he finale we do, we see people years after they get back and stuff but it gets reset when future Janeway decided to time travel and essentially reset all that happened before. Now it's a nice thing to see what they had and the reasons for her to go back, but it's an unnecessary element and he same story could have been told without the time travel element and hen use those leftover 20mins from the start, that was spent setting up he time travel stuff and future timeline, to instead provide an epilogue of what he crew was up to after they got back for real.

The other problem with Star Trek time travel and any other time travel in TV show is that it's a closed loop when it's convenient but it's not when it's not convenient. It's complicated stuff and as such they should just not even bother with it unless they want to do something completely silly and not dwell too much into the effects of time travel like Star Trek IV The Voyage Home.
 
Even with ST4, it's at least justified - all Federation ships were disabled and the Klingon ship was so jank that they couldn't control where they ended up. With Voyager's ending, why not just prevent the ship from going to the Delta Quadrant in the first place if you're just willing to throw away the timeline?

What about people like Sutter and all the other random redshirts that died along the way on Voyager's dumb journeys? They didn't deserve to live?
 
Fuchsdh said:
I will defend "Genesis" and "Sub Rosa".
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The effects in Genesis are really cool.

firehawk12 said:
Even with ST4, it's at least justified - all Federation ships were disabled and the Klingon ship was so jank that they couldn't control where they ended up. With Voyager's ending, why not just prevent the ship from going to the Delta Quadrant in the first place if you're just willing to throw away the timeline?

What about people like Sutter and all the other random redshirts that died along the way on Voyager's dumb journeys? They didn't deserve to live?
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There is, in fact, a good reason for that presented in Endgame. Janeway has three real reasons for doing what she did. The third most important reason is Chakotay, but that's related to her first most important reason. The second reason is Tuvok. The first reason is Seven dying. She feels real guilty about that and going back in time to fix just that wouldn't get seven "home" in any way.
 
Himynameischris said:
Anyways as far as finals go I rank them TNG>>>>>DS9>ENT>VOY, I'll leave TOS out because it didn't really get a final episode for it's run unless we count the movies.
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The TOS movies count, the TNG movies don't.

TOS had a perfect ending with "Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country", and TNG had a perfect ending with "All Good Things".

"Generations" doesn't exist, therefore it can't ruin TOS, and "Nemesis" doesn't exist either, so it can't ruin TNG.

Man God said:
There is, in fact, a good reason for that presented in Endgame. Janeway has three real reasons for doing what she did. The third most important reason is Chakotay, but that's related to her first most important reason. The second reason is Tuvok. The first reason is Seven dying. She feels real guilty about that and going back in time to fix just that wouldn't get seven "home" in any way.
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It's the same reason Janeway killed Tuvix. She was moping about her lost Tuvok, and then Kes came in and moped about her lost Neelix, so Janeway said "Fuck it, ima go murder that Tuvix and get my precious Tuvok back (oh and Neelix too)."

Thing is, Voyager is really bad at having Janeway make human decisions and getting the audience to empathize with her. The show was stuck on trying to make Janeway look strong and capable, because they were terrified of making the First Female Captain look weak.
 
Man God said:
The effects in Genesis are really cool.

There is, in fact, a good reason for that presented in Endgame. Janeway has three real reasons for doing what she did. The third most important reason is Chakotay, but that's related to her first most important reason. The second reason is Tuvok. The first reason is Seven dying. She feels real guilty about that and going back in time to fix just that wouldn't get seven "home" in any way.
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Cheerilee said:
TIt's the same reason Janeway killed Tuvix. She was moping about her lost Tuvok, and then Kes came in and moped about her lost Neelix, so Janeway said "Fuck it, ima go murder that Tuvix and get my precious Tuvok back (oh and Neelix too)."

Thing is, Voyager is really bad at having Janeway make human decisions and getting the audience to empathize with her. The show was stuck on trying to make Janeway look strong and capable, because they were terrified of making the First Female Captain look weak.
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It's silly though, because they don't even address the fact that she's allowing countless crew members and other aliens to die by being selective about which people to save. It's not even a Kobayashi Maru scenario where she has to pick between two major crew members, which would have at least been interesting.
Also, where the hell were the time cops? IIRC they don't show up at all during the ending to try to stop her.

---

For anyone who happens to be watching Killjoys, do you find it funny that they're basically doing the DS9 Changeling arc? lol
Not only do the aliens take human form, they also make people cut themselves and bleed to prove that they are still human.
 
Man God said:
There is, in fact, a good reason for that presented in Endgame. Janeway has three real reasons for doing what she did. The third most important reason is Chakotay, but that's related to her first most important reason. The second reason is Tuvok. The first reason is Seven dying. She feels real guilty about that and going back in time to fix just that wouldn't get seven "home" in any way.
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Could have gone back earlier just a few weeks though and saved Carey too, wouldn't have screwed with her plan.
 
Pobody's Nerfect.

I love them bringing back Carey just to kill him considering he survived most of the series death events by virtue of being off camera. Wasn't killed when the Kazon or Hirogen took over the ship. Wasn't killed during the Year of Hell or any of the many borg encounters.
 
I've been thinking and tbh I really want Star Trek to get rid of pandering to TOS after Discovery. I don't know why TOS gets so much more love than TNG, which was obviously more popular when it aired and defined modern day Star Trek.

Apart from that the other thing I want is a Star Trek sequel that's chronologically set after Voyager i.e. the last of the TNG era story. A lot of people say there's no story to tell as Klingons and Romulans are now allies, Dominion and Borg are gone. But why can't there be a new threat? It's not impossible to write new adversaries, especially when more than half the galaxy is uncharted space for Federation. The Borg didn't exist in the story until they did, the Dominion didn't exist until they did and when they were written in it was easy to believe how they have always been there but never encountered before. They can easily do the same for new adversaries. It's just that I'm tired of Klingons as bad guys as even after the alliance we still got several episodes where Klingons are the bad guys. Then we had Enterprise which had Klingons as enemies as well since it's a prequel, the Kelvin timeline movies presented Klingons as enemies too and now Discovery is actually going to focus even more on war with Klingon.

Klingons are great as bros, as enemies they are boring as it all just becomes about bad temper, weird ass rituals and talks about honour. And it makes them so one dimensional that you start to wonder how they ever became a warp capable species.


Also I'm secretly hoping for Star Trek Discovery to do sort of bad on CBS (not quality wise) so that CBS drops it and Netflix picks it up completely..lol
 
I believe Janeway's thinking was trying to preserve as much as the timeline as possible. She picked the point she did because of the Borg transwarp corridor being right there. Popping in a few weeks before to save Carey or something pollutes the timeline even more, but (probably the bigger issue) creates more chances for her plan to go wrong (because she was already aware her past self might disrupt her plans.)
 
Star Trek online, while not the best storytelling, shows how can still be plenty of conflict post DS9.

Romulus after blowing up split the Romulans (and Remans) into two factions, one 'good' and just wanting to build a new home and get along, one like the Romulans of old trying to control and do evil stuff.

Klingons got a new Chancellor who was war hungry and publicly turned a blind eye to random houses attacking unprovoked (secretly masterminding attacks).

Borg return eventually after Janeway's crippling of them.

Are new threats, plus plenty of delving outside the space on the main races.
 
I don't think we need a series set after Voyager, it really doesn't matter when a series is set, a series set in 2390 wouldn't resemble the TNG era just like Discovery doesn't resemble the TOS era. Visually it would be its own thing and they can pretty much tell the same stories in all eras, there's no real difference.

The only reason I kinda want a post Voyager series is because it would contradict both Star Trek online and the novels and it would be hilarious to see all the whining from some fans.
 
Pluto said:
I don't think we need a series set after Voyager, it really doesn't matter when a series is set, a series set in 2390 wouldn't resemble the TNG era just like Discovery doesn't resemble the TOS era. Visually it would be its own thing and they can pretty much tell the same stories in all eras, there's no real difference.

The only reason I kinda want a post Voyager series is because it would contradict both Star Trek online and the novels and it would be hilarious to see all the whining from some fans.
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I want it set after Voyager not because of technology but because:

1) I don't want to see stories where we fight Klingons and Romulans for the 1000th time.
2) I want the TOS pandering to stop and have them elevate TNG to that status while the cast is still around and alive. TOS was unique and new for its time but it's also cheesy 60s shit outside of the movies and it's time to move on.
3) I want to see something new and want them to experiment rather which is harder to do when you confine yourself in several ways so as to not break continuity.
 
nOoblet16 said:
I want it set after Voyager not because of technology but because:

1) I don't want to see stories where we fight Klingons and Romulans for the 1000th time.
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I don't think the romulans have been used that often (the cardassians have seen more action in the franchise for example) but I generally agree with you although the time frame of the series doesn't matter here. A series set in the TOS time frame doesn't have to use klingons or romulans and a series set post Voyager isn't a guarantee that they won't be used as antagonists.

2) I want the TOS pandering to stop and have them elevate TNG to that status while the cast is still around and alive. TOS was unique and new for its time but it's also cheesy 60s shit outside of the movies and it's time to move on.
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I think part of the reason they're concentrating on the TOS era at the moment is because the TNG era fizzled out with declining ratings on the tv side and Insurrection and Nemesis at the theatres while the TOS movies did pretty well and ended their run during what was arguably the franchises height of popuarity with TNG in its fifth season.
TOS is fondly remembered, it didn't end on a bad note and the time period is actually largely unexplored, we know very little about it.

And btw TNG is cheesy 80s shit. :) Each show clearly shows when it was made. 25 years from now people will probably look at Discovery, roll their eyes and complain that it's so 2010s.

3) I want to see something new and want them to experiment rather which is harder to do when you confine yourself in several ways so as to not break continuity.
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They're not very confined, think about it, what do we know about ten years before TOS? The Enterprise is currently under command of Pike and Spock serves as science officer ... that's it.
Sure, we know Earth, Vulcan, Romulus etc. won't blow up and Sarek cannot die in Discovery but other than that? They have free reign.
 
80s cheesy is still better than 60s cheesy. Plus TNG has a lot of episodes that stand the test of time very well, can't say the same about TOS.
 
Pluto said:
I don't think we need a series set after Voyager, it really doesn't matter when a series is set, a series set in 2390 wouldn't resemble the TNG era just like Discovery doesn't resemble the TOS era. Visually it would be its own thing and they can pretty much tell the same stories in all eras, there's no real difference.

The only reason I kinda want a post Voyager series is because it would contradict both Star Trek online and the novels and it would be hilarious to see all the whining from some fans.
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Star Trek Online has some interesting ideas but a lot of it is frankly terrible, especially when it comes to design.

Also, if we were still following the TNG era chronology it's 2394 already.
 
Time travel on it's own would be fine in Star Trek, I can't think of an episode where it got too complicated (outside of the basic paradoxes that are created because of time travel), it works for one off stories. The problem was that they created the Time Agents and that basically ruined time travel in ST. They really screwed themselves with that decision.

Also it's kind of a shame we didn't get any Mirror Universe episodes in Voyager, of course it wouldn't have made any sense but I think that would have been fun.

Cheerilee said:
The TOS movies count, the TNG movies don't.

TOS had a perfect ending with "Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country", and TNG had a perfect ending with "All Good Things".

"Generations" doesn't exist, therefore it can't ruin TOS, and "Nemesis" doesn't exist either, so it can't ruin TNG.


It's the same reason Janeway killed Tuvix. She was moping about her lost Tuvok, and then Kes came in and moped about her lost Neelix, so Janeway said "Fuck it, ima go murder that Tuvix and get my precious Tuvok back (oh and Neelix too)."

Thing is, Voyager is really bad at having Janeway make human decisions and getting the audience to empathize with her. The show was stuck on trying to make Janeway look strong and capable, because they were terrified of making the First Female Captain look weak.
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lol that works for me
 
I'm near the beginning of season 3 of Enterprise. The story is getting good but man have they dialed up the "edgy not quite network tv early 2000's sex appeal" in the last 20 episodes or so. Pretty much can't go an entire episode without someone in their underwear. Least they don't discriminate though, the ratio has been more or less equal.

The show does love messing with T'Pol though; she gets infected with something every five episodes it seems. That and having Captain Archer get kidnapped are the two most popular plots so far.
 
Himynameischris said:
The whole sexing up T'Pol thing was awkward, that episode where she almost rapes phloxs was terrible
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You can definitely see why she wanted nothing to do with Trek after Enterprise ran.

She's always getting run over by Archer in dialogue too which makes sense given how he thinks of most Vulcans but I've always found it a bit demeaning. Doubly so when she's nearly always right about whatever they are discussing. He chills out a bit in season four as I remember.
 
Man God said:
You can definitely see why she wanted nothing to do with Trek after Enterprise ran.

She's always getting run over by Archer in dialogue too which makes sense given how he thinks of most Vulcans but I've always found it a bit demeaning. Doubly so when she's nearly always right about whatever they are discussing. He chills out a bit in season four as I remember.
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Yup which is why I hated Archer at first, dude had no experience or even any protocol to follow and instead of being a good Captain and at least listening or taking the advice of the only person on board that has any clue on what they're doing, he belittles her or just completely ignores her and fucks things up.

The episode where he gets mad at Tripp for interfering with that alien who's bred to produce offspring just pissed me off because that's exactly the type of BS he was always doing. He had just finished going to trial with the Klingons for meddling. It's not till around mid-season 3 that I started to like him better but if I'm ranking Captains it's Picard/Krik>Sisko>Janeway>Archer.
 
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