What if everyone got paid the same

That's not how economics works. The quantity of highly-skilled people (skilled is relative to the population) is much smaller than the quantity of low-skilled people. The principles of supply and demand tell us high-skilled people should get more.


In addition, why would you incur the extra costs of education to become a highly-skilled person only to get paid the same amount as a cashier?
 
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womfalcs3 said:
That's not how economics works. Why would you incur the extra costs of education to become a highly-skilled person to get paid the same amount as a cashier?
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In OP's utopia, you'd be paid for school, the same amount as the person who finished school.

I assume, or it makes no sense.

What am I saying? None of it makes sense. If everyone is paid the same, there's no point in paying anyone. Just give food/entertainment vouchers.
 
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bitbydeath said:
Doesn't matter if you were a McDonalds employee, bank manager, rock star, president etc
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Why would anyone want to take any responsibility, if you get paid the same for a job with no responsibility? What about lets say the part of the police force disarming explosives, should they get the same pay as the dude who mainly writes parking tickets? There is hazard pay, because some jobs are inherently more dangerous.

People aren't seeking to be cleaners because of how lucrative it is. People actually enjoy it.
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What?? I know a number of people who clean as their job, none of them do it for the glamor and joy of wiping up someone else's (literal) shit. Have you ever worked a shit job?

I could see housing becoming affordable, people will be seeking jobs for passion and not money.
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I don't see that happening, unless you start by re-distributing wealth at the beginning, forcing people of their land with the military. And if you don't take everyone's passport, all your e.g. scientists and engineers would just emigrate to a country where they do get paid according to the work they put into their careers.
 
A fundamentally flawed concept that goes against human nature. People have already addressed the fact that most people that do "shitty jobs" don't, in fact, enjoy it. Don't get me wrong, they might not hate it and be fine with doing it, but the idea that anyone aspires to be septic tank cleaners is ridiculous. Then you have the idea that someone would have to go through the torture and stress of 8 years of medical school only to get no monetary reward at all and they could've just as easily chosen comparatively easy degree but still get to work with medicine and help people (like nursing).

But the fundamental flaw and naivety in this concept (and true communism in general) is the complete lack of understanding of human nature and the biological powers that drive us, especially men. We seek status, it's in our genes. The capitalist system means we seek it through wealth more often than not, take that away and men start to seek it through other means, often time darker and more destructive ones (see Soviet Union and Maoist China). Where economic hierarchies don't exist, radical, oppressive and violent social hierarchies almost always rise.
 
I don't believe OP thought this one out, or he's just very young lol.

Though to be fair, it probably sounded better initially in his head.
 
What the OP is describing is a system that *could* be made to function.

But not in any current western society.

If the people felt real ownership of the country and were invested in the lively well-being of ALL it's fellow citizens then the prospect of propelling culture forward into prosperity for its own sake instead of the sake of it's individual citizens would be the prime motivator.

But for most of us that's a concept so foreign that it's almost unimaginable.
 
Greedings said:
Assumptions by OP:

1) People choose jobs because they enjoy them. No, they don't.
2) People wouldn't just leave the country. Yes, they would.
3) People would be able to afford things. No, international goods would not be cheaper.
4) Money =/= prestige.

Your system punishes those who have drive, OP. What's so great about our system, is that if you work harder, you get more money. There is an incentive to work hard, and a pay off. In your system, as with the communist times, you are only required to put in as much effort as meets the minimum demand for your job. There's a famous story as to how China dropped its serious communism and went relatively capitalistic, look up the small farming village of Xiaogang. It's a fascinating story.
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1. What makes you think they don't?

2. It'd likely be the opposite so families can preserve for generations. My kids likely won't be able to leave my home until they've got a high paying job, unlike how a minimum wage could at least let you rent in yesteryear.

3. Higher production within the country due to less people homeless and less on the dole, exports would easily pay for imports possibly 10 fold.

4. That is not a good thing.

Do you think all people on low paying jobs such as waitresses just slack off? That's not how it works. The benefits of China is the massive imports/exports. They're not on equal pay though, so not a really good comparison.
 
I was going to go through how wrong you are, but instead:

Have you ever worked a day in your life? You sound like a college freshman who's full of ideas that reek of immaturity and inexperience.
 
Lanrutcon said:
I'm getting the feeling you're very young. What are we talking...teens? just hit the 20? That second question is either intentionally obtuse or coming from someone who's had very limited experience when it comes to careers, no offense.

If given the option, everyone who's actually worked a 9 to 5 for extended periods of time would choose a job with a ton of free time, high pay and no stress. This becomes especially true once you start a family. You can follow your dreams all you like, but without money, time and your health it's a dice roll with terrible odds.
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Nope. I'm mid-30's, have three kids and looking at buying a second house.

I'd happily give up my money if it secured my kids and there kids a better future though.
 
bitbydeath said:
Maybe we should try improve on past mistakes rather than just abolishing the idea altogether?
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I would say the same right back to you with respect to Capitalism. Why not improve capitalism rather than just abolishing the idea altogether.

Capitalism is not a perfect system. But it is the best one we currently have. And its a better starting point for improving on over a system like communism that has failed multiple time already.
 
bitbydeath said:
Nope. I'm mid-30's, have three kids and looking at buying a second house.

I'd happily give up my money if it secured my kids and there kids a better future though.
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Same. I don't have kids, but I do support some family. I'd also give up quite a lot if I could secure them a better future. Sadly, money is really the only way to make sure they get the best shot at life possible. In a world where we call get paid the same I'd never be happy knowing that I could be doing more for the ones I care for, if only I'd get paid more for working harder or longer. A fixed income without future prospects or scaling salary would severely limit what I could provide for my family.
 
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Punchpudding said:
So assuming you find a bunch of people to build you a car out of the goodness of their hearts when they could be doing anything else. And then after owning said car, the government will have the power to confiscate and destroy any of your property if you don't fall in line (based on a vague idea of not trying hard enough)?
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No goodness of their hearts, they do it to be paid. They're in the job because that's what they want to do.
 
If everyone got paid the same.

You wouldn't have your flagship phones.

Fast internet.

Amazing shows and movies.

A car with all the modcons.

A decent sized house.

Any sort of green or renewable energy.

etc etc etc etc.

Meanwhile you'll be working your arse off to carry many people who aren't interested in working while still getting paid exactly the same as them...
 
womfalcs3 said:
That's not how economics works. The quantity of highly-skilled people (skilled is relative to the population) is much smaller than the quantity of low-skilled people. The principles of supply and demand tell us high-skilled people should get more.


In addition, why would you incur the extra costs of education to become a highly-skilled person only to get paid the same amount as a cashier?
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It'd massively shake everything up. Imagine not having economy crashes ever again.
 
Greedings said:
In OP's utopia, you'd be paid for school, the same amount as the person who finished school.

I assume, or it makes no sense.

What am I saying? None of it makes sense. If everyone is paid the same, there's no point in paying anyone. Just give food/entertainment vouchers.
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I'm not opposed to leaving money behind:-p
 
This has to be a joke. If you believe that the majority of people enjoy their work, then you haven't spoken to very many people. Say goodbye to innovation and hello to starvation.
 
bitbydeath said:
No goodness of their hearts, they do it to be paid. They're in the job because that's what they want to do.
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TBH if you could get your workers to get specialized training and work more specialized/rigorous jobs for no extra pay, you'd be successful no matter what country you're in.
 
Is this a troll thread or are you just completely ignorant of history?

There would be no incentive to work hard, take risks and innovate; GDP would plummet; and we would all starve.
 
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bitbydeath said:
They're in the job because that's what they want to do.
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That's some grand delusion right there. Go ask a bagger in your local store how much he wants to do his job. I don't like my job, but I have bills to pay.
I don't think you are in your 30s, so you are either very lucky to be in a position you enjoy with pay good enough to buy a second house AND don't talk to a lot of people. Or, you are just lying.
 
matt404au said:
Is this a troll thread or are you just completely ignorant of history?

There would be no incentive to work hard, take risks and innovate; GDP would plummet; and we would all starve.
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This is exactly what happened in the USSR and the rest of the eastern block when they basically implemented this and the outcome was starvation and brutal state tyranny to keep folks in check.
In every single place they tried it.

Anyone old enough remembering how "In russia/east germany/poland/... they stand in line for 4 hours to buy a loaf of bread".
 
I do think a lot more jobs should be socialised and there should be a basic standard of living for all. However you still need a capitalist private sector for people to have the freedom to do anything.

Pure socialism and communism just doesn't work as it goes against human nature.
 
sahlberg said:
This is exactly what happened in the USSR and the rest of the eastern block when they basically implemented this and the outcome was starvation and brutal state tyranny to keep folks in check.
In every single place they tried it.

Anyone old enough remembering how "In russia/east germany/poland/... they stand in line for 4 hours to buy a loaf of bread".
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OP needs to read Animal Farm
 
I think a better system would be to keep what we have and add UBI for poor people below the poverty level with the stipulation that they always be involved in some sort of public work or community service.
 
Read a book about people who worked in communist states. Son of the Revolution is one I read in college about a Chinese man. He talks about working in a factory in China and how everyone just played cards and didn't care about that job. How they all got the paid the same regardless and they could never meet the production quotas anyways as they were impossible.
 
Sàmban said:
I think a better system would be to keep what we have and add UBI for poor people below the poverty level with the stipulation that they always be involved in some sort of public work or community service.
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That sounds a lot like slavery.
 
matt404au said:
That sounds a lot like slavery.
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It's tricky. I think the reality of turning the unemployed into some sort of labour force by law doesn't sit well with most folks. It seems like a great idea (on paper, at a high level), but has any country successfully implemented something like that?
 
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Lanrutcon said:
It's tricky. I think the reality of turning the unemployed into some sort of labour force by law doesn't sit well with most folks. It seems like a great idea (on paper, at a high level), but has any country successfully implemented something like that?
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In the sense of paid forced labor, I am not certain.
Unpaid large scale forced labor camps to cope with unemployed masses and dissidents that have most certainly been used : https://archive.org/details/TheGulagArchipelago-Threevolumes

Forced labor, paid or not, is probably not a great idea.
 
matt404au said:
That sounds a lot like slavery.
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...how? It's practically the same thing as giving poor people a job. Want ubi? Do something. Don't do it, don't get paid.

Slaves don't get paid. That's...like...in the definition of slavery. I think you went full ow the edge on this one.
 
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bitbydeath said:
It'd massively shake everything up. Imagine not having economy crashes ever again.
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You haven't studied the history of the Soviet Union very much have you? It wasn't oppression and fascism that caused its collapse (although you can't have a communistic system without those two), it was the complete and utter collapse of their economy. Not only does your "utopic" system increase the chases of economic collapse, it all but guarantees it.
 
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Who would want to put in the effort to be a doctor when they could get paid the same to sit in a toll booth playing their Switch all day?

While it's true some people will do it out of passion, most people do it for money. We'd have no skilled workers and our economy would collapse...
 
These pie in sky ideas do not take into account the realities of human nature. No one is going to take the jobs that are high stress, labor intensive, dangerous, high liability, or some combination thereof out of the goodness of their hearts. That's just not how human beings are.
 
i hope i live long enough to see the rise of automation and how it completely changes society. The first ones to go are the low skilled paying jobs as they would be replaced. Who knows when that is going to happen, but best get ready for it
 
Sàmban said:
...how? It's practically the same thing as giving poor people a job. Want ubi? Do something. Don't do it, don't get paid.

Slaves don't get paid. That's...like...in the definition of slavery. I think you went full ow the edge on this one.
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Slaves are not paid. But they were taken care of. Given shelter, food and clothing. The bare essentials for life. What subby here wants to do is the same thing. Make sure everyone has enough for the bare essentials. Sounds oddly familiar to me.

I am sure house slaves found ways to give themselves more than their outdoor working brethren, and I am sure those who administer how much everyone needs for income in this grand utopia will find out ways to justify giving themselves a little more than everyone else.

On top of this you have the people who are above the system. In the case of slaves, you have owners, and in the case of this system... well someone is making the decisions. They aren't going to want to be held to the same standard as everyone else, because they are more equal. Someone has to eat the caviar and prime beef, you know? It would go to waste otherwise, and not everyone can have it, so why shouldn't they for the extra work they have to do to manage this system?

And then, well the butcher cutting this prime beef isn't going to want to be stuck eating lips and assholes, like everyone else, so how do you keep the butcher happy? Bribe him? That wouldn't be fair to everyone else right, so those top people will have no choice but to use the force of law to make him eat the lips and assholes and give those on top the best meat. For fairness sake, right?
 
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If everybody was paid the same then nobody would do anything and even fewer would accomplish exemplary tasks.

It would be a terrible place to live and progress as a society would come to a halt.
 
TheShadowLord said:
The first ones to go are the low skilled paying jobs as they would be replaced. Who knows when that is going to happen, but best get ready for it
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Eliminate enough jobs overall and businesses across the board will see their income will drop. Its in everyone's best interest to keep as much of the population employed as possible.
 
diablos991 said:
If everybody was paid the same then nobody would do anything and even fewer would accomplish exemplary tasks.

It would be a terrible place to live and progress as a society would come to a halt.
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Yup. Why would I do anything more than straight simple unskilled 9 to 5 job. And probably worse, why pay for any of the schooling you need for these jobs.
 
I think OP's heart is in the right place, but I want NO part of this world.

People and things have different worth and value in my opinion. I know some lazy people who deserve to be where they are at in life - hate to be so curt about it.

This would be like picking a number out of a hat to choose who gets a spot on the football team. Nothing to do with how hard you've trained or the sacrifices you've made. Lazy Joe just walks in and draws the QB spot.
 
UBI is a much better solution than this. You can still have high paying jobs to strive for but everyones basic needs are taken care of. And yes I know there are issues with that system as well but it's a much more realistic goal than this.
 
Sàmban said:
...how? It's practically the same thing as giving poor people a job. Want ubi? Do something. Don't do it, don't get paid.

Slaves don't get paid. That's...like...in the definition of slavery. I think you went full ow the edge on this one.
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Your basics covered by your owner (the government) and no time to gain the necessary skills to move up the hierarchy? Nah that sounds nothing like slavery and I'm just an edgelord.
 
The economy would shift to some other currency or commodity for the purpose of accumulating riches and people will work and scheme to accumulate that.
 
I mean this is almost the system if you think about nomadic people that were self sufficient off the land.

People in higher "stress" jobs were awarded not with monetary items so much as respect from the community, say a shaman, or witch doctor.


To say that it wouldn't work today is absurd because many isolated tribes in Africa live an almost similar lifestyle still to this day.

But for people to give up their materialism in today's modern world is about the most difficult thing you could ever hope to achieve.

That system only works if the people in the community only ask for the bare minimum when it comes to their needs in life.
 
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