Can we now agree that there is no Secret Sauce Drive?

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Because if it's mostly 9.9-10.2 it'd a 10TF.

And most of the time at or close to 10.3 means 10TF
90% efficiency would yield 9.2TF. 90% is 9 times out of 10. This is the upper echelon of efficiency, compared to low utilization. 95% of 10.3 is 9.78.

97% of 10.3 is 9.99. so being "~9TF" is far from unreasonable. As matter a fact, it's more than likely in the ~9TF range majority of the time, if not always in that range because of variable clocks.

This will be my last post about this as I'm moving to the bans thread, as this is off topic.
 
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How could we know without any real evidence, my man lol?

Come on. This is the same speculative BS you're attempting to criticize. Wait for the evidence.

Also, have you forgotten 4 generations of 3D game development? Launch titles are never indicative of fidelity long term.
 
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90% efficiency would yield 9.2TF. 90% is 9 times out of 10. This is the upper echelon of efficiency, compared to low utilization. 95% of 10.3 is 9.78.

97% of 10.3 is 9.99. so being "~9TF" is far from unreasonable. As matter a fact, it's more than likely in the ~9TF range majority of the time, if not always in that range because of variable clocks.

This will be my last post about this as I'm moving to the bans thread, as this is off topic.
Based on what?
I'll stick to Cerny for the time being.
 
Based on what?
I'll stick to Cerny for the time being.
Type in "gpu utilization" into Google or YouTube. With pc's, that aren't limited to variable clocks between cpu and gpu, you still won't get 100% efficiency. Even Cerny never said it will be at 10.3 all the time, because that would be disingenuous to the public. Feel free to pm me if you'd like to continue this conversation.
 
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Based on what?
I'll stick to Cerny for the time being.
The laws of transistors.

Simply because you dont understand it doesnt mean you are right. By your logic we should ban you for saying that the PS5 will draw 10.3 most of the time. Because that is literally impossible.

edit: changed hit to draw.
 
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What the fuck is this Xbox Discord group people are constantly bringing up 😆 It's discussed like it's the boogeyman.

There is a super secret Xbox discord of Evil that I think people bring up more often than the people in that discord actually use it, as if some dorks from Era really pose some credible thread to Sony. It's become a meme, almost. Like this one discord group of Xbox fans from Era (as if there aren't discords for Sony fans as well), is gonna destroy the PS5 or something. I wish people would get over it.

~9TFLOPS on average

When VFXVeteran VFXVeteran wrote this, I read it as "9TFish." To me that implies give or take a TF or two. It doesn't read to me like some vicious libel. Given the nature of variable clocks and whatnot, is it THAT outlandish a thing to say?

I've seen much worse said about the XsX. People say the XsX has a "weak" SSD. that its audio chip is the same as the one in PS4 and Xbox One (this was said yesterday I believe)
 
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Type in "gpu utilization" into Google or YouTube. With pc's, that aren't limited to variable clocks between cpu and gpu, you still won't get 100% efficiency. Even Cerny never said it will be at 10.3 all the time, because that would be disingenuous to the public. Feel free to pm me if you'd like to continue this conversation.
Yes, most of the time.

Besides, it doesn't just work like that: google and see how it works and all.
The same kind of discussions were had back in 2013 when people knew how everything worked, so KZSF and Infamous SS would never be possible on PS4.

Ever since then, I've learned to just go by Cerny and devs who actually worked with PS5 hardware.
 
The laws of transistors.

Simply because you dont understand it doesnt mean you are right. By your logic we should ban you for saying that the PS5 will hit 10.3 most of the time. Because that is literally impossible.
Is that so?
I'm merely quoting Cerny and going by what he says.

Let's make a bet then:

If by the time PS6 gets announced, there hasn't been a single PS5 game that reportedly ran at 10.3TF most of the time, mods can give me a perma account ban and I'll never return to gaf.

If even one dev states that their game run at 10.3TF most of the time, the same goes for you.

Should be a safe bet for you, since it's literally impossible.
 
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7xCoURL.gif
 
Is that so?
I'm merely quoting Cerny and going by what he says.
Again, you clearly have no idea what he is saying.

Cerny:
"We expect the GPU to spend most of it's time at, or close to, that frequency and performance. (2.23GHz/10.3Tflops)"

The frequency and performance is not stating it achieves 100 percent utilization. Performances of GPU's have a Delta meaning that a rating for the GPU will range and never reach peak utilization as its not a component that is capable of this as the laws of physics make it impossible. If they were able to achieve 100 percent utilization then why would benchmarks even need to exist? Does your electricity give a constant digital rating of power? It doesn't, and GPU's indeed run on electricity and follow the same laws.
 
Again, you clearly have no idea what he is saying.

Cerny:
"We expect the GPU to spend most of it's time at, or close to, that frequency and performance. (2.23GHz/10.3Tflops)"

The frequency and performance is not stating it achieves 100 percent utilization. Performances of GPU's have a Delta meaning that a rating for the GPU will range and never reach peak utilization as its not a component that is capable of this as the laws of physics make it impossible. If they were able to achieve 100 percent utilization then why would benchmarks even need to exist? Does your electricity give a constant digital rating of power? It doesn't, and GPU's indeed run on electricity and follow the same laws.
But isn't PS5 designed to run on 100% power all the time?

Again, I'm just going by what Cerny says.
I've never made these claims myself.
 
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But isn't PS5 designed to run on 100% power all the time?

Again, I'm just going by what Cerny says.
I've never made these claims myself.

Nobody said you did.

But as I and others have stated theres a difference between frequencies and efficiency. Notice Cerny never said that they have achieved 100 percent efficiency. Have you ever seen a power supply boast 100 percent efficiency? No, you see them boast about as low as 80 percent(bronze), as high as 90(gold) percent, but never 100 percent because thats impossible based on the laws of electricity. Even when running at 100 percent load. You can pump every ounce of electricity you have into a component and it will never reach 100 percent efficiency. Literally, impossible.

Cerny also said this:

"Performance is noticeably different, because 'teraflops' is defined as the computational capability of the vector ALU."

It is "capable" of 10.3. He never says it will run at 10.3. Its clocked(the frequency) to be capable of running 10.3

edited for spelling
 
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Nobody said you did.

But as I and others have stated theres a difference between frequencies and efficiency. Notice Cerny never said that they have achieved 100 percent efficiency. Have you ever seen a power supply boast 100 percent efficiency? No, you see them boast about as low as 80 percent(bronze), as high as 90(gold) percent, but never 100 percent because thats impossible based on the laws of electricity. Even when running at 100 percent load. You can pump every ounce of electricity you have into a component and it will never reach 100 percent efficiency. Literally, impossible.

Cerny also said this:

"Performance is noticeably different, because 'teraflops' is defined as the computational capability of the vector ALU."

It is "capable" of 10.3. He never says it will run at 10.3. Its clocked(the frequency) to be capable of running 10.3

edited for spelling
Yeah, I get that.
But he also says they expect to run at that frequency.
Meaning they will achieve it. Which you say it can't ever.

Anyway, you up for that bet?
Should be an easy one then.
 
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Yeah, I get that.
But he also says they expect to run at that frequency.
Meaning they will achieve it. Which you say it can't ever.

I have never said they will not achieve that frequency. I said they will never achieve 100 percent efficiency.

Edit: Theres nothing to bet? You can't reach 100 percent efficiency with electricity. Literally impossible.
 
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I have never said they will not achieve that frequency. I said they will never achieve 100 percent efficiency.

Edit: Theres nothing to bet? You can't reach 100 percent efficiency with electricity. Literally impossible.
Bet is about PS5 running at 2.23GHz/10.3TF.
That's what I was talking about.
 
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You did inadvertently by saying everything you did about Cerny saying it will run at 100 percent power at all times which you clearly didn't understand.

Come on now.
Dude, you said it won't ever hit 10.3TF.
I quoted Cerny where said they expect it to run at or close to 10.3TF

Granted, you did talk about draw as well and I didn't read all your posts entirely.
 
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Dude, you said it won't ever hit 10.3TF.
I quoted Cerny where said they expect it to run at or close to 10.3TF

Granted, you did talk about draw as well and I didn't read all your posts entirely.

Theres the issue. We all arent here to console war you know.

And again, it wont ever hit 10.3. It will be clocked to be able to hit 10.3 but it wont.
 
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Theres the issue. We all arent here to console war you know.
Neither am I, that's why a lot of the time I don't bother to read posts in their entirety.

Nothing personal. ✌🏾

And again, it wont ever hit 10.3. It will be clocked to be able to hit 10.3 but it wont.
Hit or draw?
Because I believe Cerny when he says hit.

Again, the bet is still on the table. Feel free to accept it.
 
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Neither am I, that's why a lot of the time I don't bother to read posts in their entirety.

Nothing personal. ✌🏾


Hit or draw?
Because I believe Cerny when he says hit.

Again, the bet is still on the table. Feel free to accept it.

With all do respect then maybe don't quote people if you don't want to read the whole post? Seems super trolly.

And theres nothing to bet. I have zero doubt the ps5 with hit its target frequencies.
 
With all do respect then maybe don't quote people if you don't want to read the whole post? Seems super trolly.

And theres nothing to bet. I have zero doubt the ps5 with hit its target frequencies.
You literally just said it won't ever hit 10.3TF.
And again, it wont ever hit 10.3. It will be clocked to be able to hit 10.3 but it wont.
 
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Tis what Cerny claims. I think he'll know.
All I'm saying.

Bro, he doesn't claim that. I have detailed this every which way under the sun at this point. If you can show me where Cerny claims they will reach 100 percent power draw efficiency, in those words, I will take your bet. But at this point you are choosing to simply not read and comprehend what is being said. So I am not sure what your point is.
 
Bro, he doesn't claim that. I have detailed this every which way under the sun at this point. If you can show me where Cerny claims they will reach 100 percent power draw efficiency, in those words, I will take your bet. But at this point you are choosing to simply not read and comprehend what is being said. So I am not sure what your point is.
Then don't say it won't hit 10.3TF.
I literally asked you if you meant hit or draw 10.3TF.

Let's just leave it here. I've grown tired. Back on-topic.

It isn't 10.28 by that same admission.



The XSX is always 1.825GHZ and it always has 12.15 tf available. Always.

Yeah, I get that. That much is clear. But 9TF it's not.

Just to make it clear, I'm indeed not tech-savvy, but I listen closely to what's being said.
 
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Nothing Sony showed today looked like it was taking advantage of some crazy innovative never seen before SSD.

I expect every game, even the exclusives to run better on Series X hardware specs.
What's the point of drawing conclusions this early? The machine's not even out let alone in it's first year of release. It's a pointless topic at this stage. Not only that bu we only saw snippets of gameplay at this reveal. We'll have a better idea a few years in.
 
What's the point of drawing conclusions this early? The machine's not even out let alone in it's first year of release. It's a pointless topic at this stage. Not only that bu we only saw snippets of gameplay at this reveal. We'll have a better idea a few years in.

What you say is reasonable.

However, what is written on this board by many, are absolute statements regarding what the SSD can and will do.

You see consistent, loud and wrong downplaying of what the SSD i/0 in XSX can and will do.

Poopooing of XSX third party games that have been shown (OMG AC Valhalla only 30fps?? Thats not next gen!)

Statements about what next gen really entails "Wait until you see the REAL next gen and the power of SSD at the PS5 showcase on Thursday!!"

Then we all saw.

Add it was ok. We saw fan favorites which were great... but the fan favorites weren't "blow me away this is next gen" hyperbole.

Now its "oh it'll take a few years to truly show what the SSD can do!"
But wait we were supposed to see it (especially in comparison to XSX) this week??

We haven't even seen any 1st party XSX games using any of their system benefits and its already been written off but we should absolutely wait years for Sony's first party to demonstrate the power of their system to us?

Its all just exhausting. This board is 90-10 proSony so no matter what is posted it isn't assessed in a balanced fashion.
 
Check the "Bans" Tab on the bottom of the website.
This is the supposed reason:
You were warned days ago about the 9TF comment. You're an industry professional - and like every other member - were offered the chance to back up this claim with evidence or stop the FUD. We await the 'xbox fan banned unfairly' comment.
Yeah it's likely and practical that the GitHub PS5 leak was accurate at a point in time (captured at that point in time) AND THEN LATER clockspeed was increased(while always having been Variable in the architecture) like what happens many times in computer silicon. It's not 9.2 TFs now but it likely was before as a max with a variable clock and now, currently, it's maxes with a variable clock at 10.28TFs . Likely scenario. Simple and likely explanation.

I also don't see anything wrong with not fully believing Sony's or MSs PR. Like when Cerny says it runs at max clock most of the time(51 percent? 99 percent?) I'm feel justifiable skeptical or wanting to see if that means when the game not stressing the system it can hit it but when needed....who knows? Depends on Smartshift works in a particular game...could be lower than the max 10.28 as it is a variable clock? I think MS sees the Ps5s GPU that way too which is why they tout "constant" TF performance and clocks. Shrug, IDK?, on MSs side they need to explain what 100GB instantly accessible means more fully.
 
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It isn't 10.28 by that same admission.

The XSX is always 1.825GHZ and it always has 12.15 tf available. Always.

:pie_eyeroll:

because its a variable clock! it will be as fast as it needs to be to run the game, you are basically twisting a very simple logic

and neither console will use all flops, that is theoretical value you wont hit that because games dont work that way, a game is not only making floating point operations and doesnt require exactly 33 o 16 ms to resolve every frame tha is the time available for to resolve each frame at 30 or 60 fps but not every frame has same cost the same apply with other metrics, the theoretical maximum is exactly that, the work load can change depending what the game is doing

PS5 can downclok with smarthshift(AMD tech) when full clock is not needed based in the workload to save power it can be at full clock all time if needed and its theoretical maximum is 10.3 just as xbsx is 12.15, ps5 can of course operate at its maximum clock if required it doesnt mean it will require exactly 10.3 tf operations to run the game in question, the same for XBSX it wont downlock but it doesnt mean it will use 12.15 TF because again a game is not composed of a row of 12.15 floating points operations to be resolved in a second the very same apply with current consoles they wont downclock but they wont do their maximum theoretical floating point operations when running games and not all parts of a game require most of the console capabilities when there is time available it will just be idle waitinh the strat of the next frame to work you can tell by the fan activity, PS5 can downclock during those moments and run full speed the fan may o may not run faster depending temp but the clock is based in workload not temp it was already explained to death
 
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not really, neither console will use all flops, that is theoretical value you wont hit that because games dont work that way, a game is not only making floating point operations and doesnt require exactly 33 o 16 ms to resolve every frame tha is the time available for to resolve each frame at 30 or 60 fps but not every frame has same cost the same apply with other metrics, the theoretical maximum is exactly that, the work load can change depending what the game is doing

PS5 can downclok with smarthshift when full clock is not needed based in the workload it can be at full clock all time if needed and its theretical maximum is 10.3 just as xbsx is 12.15 it, ps5 can of course operate at its maximum clock if required it doesnt mean it will require exactly 10.3 tf operations to run the game in question, the same for XBSX it wont downlock but it doesnt mean it will use 12.15 TF because again a game is not composed of a row of 12.15 floating points operations to be resolved in a second the very same apply with current consoles they wont downclock but they dont do their maximum floating point operations when running games and not all parts of a game require most of the console capabilities you can tell by the fan activity when it do that, PS5 can downclock during those moments and run full speed the fan may o may not run faster depending temp but the clock is based in workload not temp it was already explained to death

Alot of what you wrote is semantical in nature.

No one is talking about utilization. Utilization is how much of the available HP is in use at anytime.

When Sony gives its number, it isn't talking about both peak utilization and peak availability although in their implementation they go necessarily hand in hand. Their system will only use enough power at any given time to match the requirements of the softwares requests. Great we got it.

But their marketing, while acknowledging this variableness, still anchors the buyer on their peak rate. So now we all have to change how we view available resources to match Sony's marketing by determining utilization vs peak and arguing THAT? Why? We know utilization fluctuates but we never argued "theoretical" output in terms of efficiency by balancing the power draw between CPU and GPU before.

Now people want to say 12.47 of XSX is theoretical.. but it isn't. That speed isn't based on efficiency, its based on clock and workers.

The maximum output available by the GPU at any instant and perpetually is 12.147. The clock doesn't change even if the power draw does. You can access 12.147 at all times and all the time and not have to worry about the power draw of the CPU in the equation. If you need to, they can both run at full speed forever and have no need to change clock. You will get 12.147 if an when you need it.

Only in the case of the PS5 do we have to re-lens the world to match their PR and try to rethink everyone else's known historical and accurate view about available resources. Why?

So what is the output of the PS5 at 2.23 GHZ? =

2304*2*2.23 = 10.275TF
2304*2*2.20 = 10.137TF
2304*2*2.18 = 10.05TF < any speed below 2.18 GHZ takes the GPU into sub 10TF range.

So a 50 MHZ drop in speed changes the narrative. Put another way a %3 drop in speed puts the GPU in just below 10TF. That is not a story that anyone in that camp wants to tell but we can calculate it very easily.

"Free VFXVETERAN!"

LMAO
 
Alot of what you wrote is semantical in nature.

No one is talking about utilization. Utilization is how much of the available HP is in use at anytime.

When Sony gives its number, it isn't talking about both peak utilization and peak availability although in their implementation they go necessarily hand in hand. Their system will only use enough power at any given time to match the requirements of the softwares requests. Great we got it.

But their marketing, while acknowledging this variableness, still anchors the buyer on their peak rate. So now we all have to change how we view available resources to match Sony's marketing by determining utilization vs peak and arguing THAT? Why? We know utilization fluctuates but we never argued "theoretical" output in terms of efficiency by balancing the power draw between CPU and GPU before.

Now people want to say 12.47 of XSX is theoretical.. but it isn't. That speed isn't based on efficiency, its based on clock and workers.

The maximum output available by the GPU at any instant and perpetually is 12.147. The clock doesn't change even if the power draw does. You can access 12.147 at all times and all the time and not have to worry about the power draw of the CPU in the equation. If you need to, they can both run at full speed forever and have no need to change clock. You will get 12.147 if an when you need it.

Only in the case of the PS5 do we have to re-lens the world to match their PR and try to rethink everyone else's known historical and accurate view about available resources. Why?

So what is the output of the PS5 at 2.23 GHZ? =

2304*2*2.23 = 10.275TF
2304*2*2.20 = 10.137TF
2304*2*2.18 = 10.05TF < any speed below 2.18 GHZ takes the GPU into sub 10TF range.

So a 50 MHZ drop in speed changes the narrative. Put another way a %3 drop in speed puts the GPU in just below 10TF. That is not a story that anyone in that camp wants to tell but we can calculate it very easily.

"Free VFXVETERAN!"

LMAO
That drop doesn't change any narrative.
Cerny clearly stated that will happen, but only in extreme cases.

How that plays out in practice is something we'll have to see.
 
That drop doesn't change any narrative.
Cerny clearly stated that will happen, but only in extreme cases.

How that plays out in practice is something we'll have to see.
The narrative on one side that the PS5 is a boost clocked 9Tf part.
The anti narrative is that CERNY said it is mostly a 10.28TF part.

It doesnt mean anythig for games but in this stupid console war its part of the power parity argument.
 
Nobody said you did.

But as I and others have stated theres a difference between frequencies and efficiency. Notice Cerny never said that they have achieved 100 percent efficiency. Have you ever seen a power supply boast 100 percent efficiency? No, you see them boast about as low as 80 percent(bronze), as high as 90(gold) percent, but never 100 percent because thats impossible based on the laws of electricity. Even when running at 100 percent load. You can pump every ounce of electricity you have into a component and it will never reach 100 percent efficiency. Literally, impossible.

Cerny also said this:

"Performance is noticeably different, because 'teraflops' is defined as the computational capability of the vector ALU."

It is "capable" of 10.3. He never says it will run at 10.3. Its clocked(the frequency) to be capable of running 10.3

edited for spelling

You are just grasping at straws, the PS5 has the computational resources of 10.3 TF available most of the time, of course you won't reach full utilization of it at every time, it doesn't make sense as the computing load is never steady. By that token, we can estimate the Xbox SX is not 12 TF, it's like, 10, because it's never 100% utilization there either. In fact, we can take some arbitrary percentage and slash every single GPU ever, due to the same.
 
You are just grasping at straws, the PS5 has the computational resources of 10.3 TF available most of the time, of course you won't reach full utilization of it at every time, it doesn't make sense as the computing load is never steady. By that token, we can estimate the Xbox SX is not 12 TF, it's like, 10, because it's never 100% utilization there either. In fact, we can take some arbitrary percentage and slash every single GPU ever, due to the same.

I literally said everything you just said in the conversation with PsykoDad. So maybe not try to attack someone and bring on dumb ass console junk for no reason.

The only only grasping at straws is you saying the XSX is 10TF in your dumbass post.
 
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I literally said everything you just said in the conversation with PsykoDad. So maybe not try to attack someone and bring on dumb ass console junk for no reason.

The only only grasping at straws is you saying the XSX is 10TF in your dumbass post.

I applied your same logic, the XSX is 10TF, because you will never get 100% utilization.
 
I literally said everything you just said in the conversation with PsykoDad. So maybe not try to attack someone and bring on dumb ass console junk for no reason.

The only only grasping at straws is you saying the XSX is 10TF in your dumbass post.

I swear these guys are reaching desperation levels that are mind blowing.
 
OP clearly had this post ready to go before the PS5 showcase. Ratchet and Clank alone makes it a laughable premise, but it is SuperLupeRap SuperLupeRap
so of course he couldn't help himself anyway.

The PS5 SSD is an absolute beast and will allow experiences not possibly on the competition.

I told you not to underestimate the power of PlayStation, but you did it anyway. Sony knocked it out of the park, and judging by their track record, will continue doing so all generation long and veyond.
 
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I swear these guys are reaching desperation levels that are mind blowing.

His argument doesn't make sense though, the PS5 is running on a constant power, at all times. It's a fact that when GPU resources are requested, the great majority of the time there will be 10.3 TFs available as computing resources, it is a fact that number is reached because that is the frequency the GPU will run at except for edge cases.

This "but mah electirytyc makes utilization no bueno and PS5 is 9 TFs so be be poop" is childish sillyness.


Yep. You go dude! High five!

You are welcome to prove the PS5 never runs at the stated frequency. Otherwise, your "dada poo poo 9 TFs pffft" hipothesis remains silly.
 
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His argument doesn't make sense though, the PS5 is running on a constant power, at all times. It's a fact that when GPU resources are requested, the great majority of the time there will be 10.3 TFs available as computing resources, it is a fact that number is reached because that is the frequency the GPU will run at except for edge cases.

This "but mah electirytyc makes utilization no bueno and PS5 is 9 TFs so be be poop" is childish sillyness.

Yeah because I said its a 9 TF GPU. Go ahead. I'll wait for you to show proof of that.
 
Yeah because I said its a 9 TF GPU. Go ahead. I'll wait for you to show proof of that.

The onus is on you to provide proof that the PS5 doesn't run at the stated frequency, since you are the one making the claim. I'll wait seated though, if you don't mind, Mr. Dada Poopoo.
 
OP clearly had this post ready to go before the PS5 showcase. Ratchet and Clank alone makes it a laughable premise, but it is SuperLupeRap SuperLupeRap
so of course he couldn't help himself anyway.

The PS5 SSD is an absolute beast and will allow experiences not possibly on the competition.

I told you not to underestimate the power of PlayStation, but you did it anyway. Sony knocked it out of the park, and judging by their track record, will continue doing so all generation long and veyond.

Yeah boy if you say it a 100 more times it may become true 😂
 
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