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[Jon Neu]

RE: pregnancy. The first trimester is completely different from the second and third. The game acknowledges she really shouldn't be out on patrol but she talked her way into it, and it's totally believable Dina could be wiped out in the first trimester and this much more pregnant chick is much more physically able to get around, because that's how actual pregnancies go. Some of these inconsistencies people are looking for read more like you've never had a SO give birth before.

A 40lbs female doctor isn't suited to combat.

Imagine a 40lbs female doctor with a close to birth pregnancy. It's just retarded, but Cuckmann has to check all the brave and stunning feminist fantasies, even if that means making the game even more cringe and the plot even more stupid.

 

[Yoboman]

You are right, a little girl should totally survive being punched af full force by Mike Tyson and hit her head against a metallic structure.

Totally you can't have concerns to the believability of all that.

And jeez, the fragile 40 lbs pregnant doctor is totally understandable to go outside and try to rescue someone. It's not like the game has showed us that being pregnant it's an incredibly physical handicap or that a doctor in the postapocalypse it's actually one of the most precious things ever that shouldn't be risked.

No legitimate concerns. Plot 10/10.

Your arguments boil down to entirely nitpick pedantic points , as I illustrated if you have issues with those points you can find them in then first game or near any plot in any game if you want to nit pick enough.

And if you don't actually understand how pregnancy sickness works and are relying on one person in a videogame to illustrate it for you then you probably need some help outside of videogames. And Mel left the stadium during the game to be transported to the frontline hospital. Why didn't she plan for the unplanned ambush!?!?

In any case I suggest you watch this helpful video



For example . A real plot hole is like Batman blowing up cars with people in them while the movie tells you he never kills

A real plot hole is not: how did Tommy, Ellie and Dina get back to Jackson if they didn't explicitly show it

 

[tfur]

RE: pregnancy. The first trimester is completely different from the second and third. The game acknowledges she really shouldn't be out on patrol but she talked her way into it, and it's totally believable Dina could be wiped out in the first trimester and this much more pregnant chick is much more physically able to get around, because that's how actual pregnancies go. Some of these inconsistencies people are looking for read more like you've never had a SO give birth before.

No, this is not how it goes, at all. It is precisely real life experiences that makes this so silly.

The story diminishes innate female uniqueness to ham-fist the story. In the end, none of the relationships or pregnancies mattered to anyone.

 

[Deleted member 1159]

A 40lbs female doctor isn't suited to combat.

Imagine a 40lbs female doctor with a close to birth pregnancy. It's just retarded, but Cuckmann has to check all the brave and stunning feminist fantasies, even if that means making the game even more cringe and the plot even more stupid.

Medics go into combat and don't really expect to fight unless shit hits the fan, which it did, they weren't expecting to get ambushed. I don't think it's unreasonable that in a post apocalyptic setting of desperation you might see suboptimal situations like a pregnant chick finding herself in combat. And it's another leap entirely to get pissy about it supposedly being some SJW statement.

No, this is not how it goes, at all. It is precisely real life experiences that makes this so silly.

The story diminishes innate female uniqueness to ham-fist the story. In the end, none of the relationships or pregnancies mattered to anyone.

wtf are you even talking about? Dina has her child and it's implied Ellie is going back to be with her.

 

[ZZZZ]

LOL at top comment:

- Well too bad baby girl, there were expectations to subvert.

 

[Jon Neu]

Your arguments boil down to entirely nitpick pedantic points

Not at all, but at this point you are in just full damage control mode so it's hard to find any kind of meaningful and cohesive argument.

And if you don't actually understand how pregnancy sickness works

It's you that don't undersand that a 40lbs doctor who is pregnant to the point of being close to give birth, shouldn't be out.

First, because a doctor in the post apocalypse is one of the most precious things you have.

And second because such a small and thin woman carrying a baby so big already will limit her ability to move so greatly she will be just an incredibly easy target.

It's bad writting, because you could write it in a way that the pregnant woman founds herself in a situation of danger and has to defend herself anyway and make it in a believable way. But to make her go out when she isn't obviously prepared to go out and she is such a valuable person, is just plain retarded.

 

[Cracklox]

rofif , yeah I had that same sort of thinking regarding the leaks. I'm sure some people still would've panned it for imagined agendas, muscley chicks or whatever, but I don't think it would've caused the shitstorm it did. Also, lotta folks just angry right now with the year we've had and wanna take it out on something I guess.

Shhh.

Our new friend says you can't get worked up at pixels and shit.

You can get worked out only for praising it, obviously.

Oh, I'm not saying you can't get worked. up. Rather the opposite. I find it amusing, if a little head scratching

And yeah, pixels and shit. How do you describe videogames? Thats what they've always been to me, along with a nice little way to escape reality for a while. If I find one I don't like, I switch it off and find one I do. Generally I don't go to forums and jump in a big wank fest against a game I don't like. But hey, differing opinions are fine and all, but the length people are going to try and prove just why its so bad (read: why they didn't like it) is kinda silly.

 

[Jon Neu]

Medics go into combat and don't really expect to fight unless shit hits the fan, which it did, they weren't expecting to get ambushed.

You can literally cure yourself in the game. And they know going out of the facility means danger is waiting for you at every corner.

Sorry, making your 40 lbs best female doctor who is also heavily pregnant go outside so she could have a little bit of "fresh air", it's literally retarded and doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

Cuckmann just had to introduce a badass pregnant woman because he gots off on this stuff and this is the lazy way he wrote it.

 

[Yoboman]

A 40lbs female doctor isn't suited to combat.

Imagine a 40lbs female doctor with a close to birth pregnancy. It's just retarded, but Cuckmann has to check all the brave and stunning feminist fantasies, even if that means making the game even more cringe and the plot even more stupid.

Maybe stop pussy footing around like you care about plot logic and just admit its all about WAMEN IN MY GAMES

 

[tfur]

wtf are you even talking about? Dina has her child and it's implied Ellie is going back to be with her.

Dina left her.
The house was empty, and no note or anything. Dina left Ellie's shit.

Dina even said she was would not do it again if Ellie left to get Abby.
Ellie said it would be Dina's choice.
Dina chose to leave as she said she would.

 

[Yoboman]

I have to say after watching the whole game in youtube , Abby muscles are absolutely dumb and hilarious , no way in hell she's consuming
enough kcal a day in an apocalypse to keep her muscle mass like that, sure her base is a literal gym, but she's literally the only buff person
around , not to mention even with that women cannot get this kind of body without male hormones and steroids , the whole story is just stupid
and unbelievable for me because of this

Yes the zombie apocalypse story got a bit too unrealistic because of a muscular female soldier

 

[Jon Neu]

Maybe stop pussy footing around like you care about plot logic and just admit its all about WAMEN IN MY GAMES

You got me, I'm afraid of women.

I'm going to make a bigot sandwich to think about your ad hominems every time I critizice the game.

 

[tfur]

Maybe stop pussy footing around like you care about plot logic and just admit its all about WAMEN IN MY GAMES

The point is, according to Druckman himself, he embraced this ideology.

Unfortunately, his embrace of this ideology ended up weakening the the story and destroyed the story canon.

 

[Deleted member 1159]

Dina left her.
The house was empty, and no note or anything. Dina left Ellie's shit.

Dina even said she was would not do it again if Ellie left to get Abby.
Ellie said it would be Dina's choice.
Dina chose to leave as she said she would.

Yeah she left the house because she was alone with a child whose grandparents had tried to convince her to go back to Jackson. Once Ellie realizes they're gone it's not hard to assume where she'll go next. And in a story which has a central theme of forgiveness, I could totally see them reconciling.

But whatever, seems like there's no appetite for giving the game the benefit of the doubt

 

[Jon Neu]

By the way, I want to announce that my review of the game is coming.

I hope you all come to the beautiful thread that is going to be.

 

[JimiNutz]

By the way, I want to announce that my review of the game is coming.

I hope you all come to the beautiful thread that is going to be.

Please can you do a video review.
I wanna hear you talking dirty.

 

[Yoboman]

You got me, I'm afraid of women.

I'm going to make a bigot sandwich to think about your ad hominems every time I critizice the game.

Sorry I didn't give "Cuckmann" the levity it deserves. I'll be sure to watch out for your TED talk

 

[Yoboman]

The point is, according to Druckman himself, he embraced this ideology.

Unfortunately, his embrace of this ideology ended up weakening the the story and destroyed the story canon.

To you

 

[Steve.1981]

RE: pregnancy. The first trimester is completely different from the second and third. The game acknowledges she really shouldn't be out on patrol but she talked her way into it, and it's totally believable Dina could be wiped out in the first trimester and this much more pregnant chick is much more physically able to get around, because that's how actual pregnancies go. Some of these inconsistencies people are looking for read more like you've never had a SO give birth before.

Dude, I'm a father & an uncle. I've been around plenty of pregnant woman, including my wife. Pregnancies don't just go one specific way. They go plenty of different ways.

It's true that pregnant women are, usually, not completely infirm. Yes, most of the time physical activity is fine. But we're talking about getting into gunfights &, I'll say it once again, getting thrown around in the bed of a truck as it roars around crashing into walls & buildings at high speed.

The scene is dumb & I watched in incredulity. Not because women scare me. They don't. Not because I hate women in games. I don't. It's just dumb, for no real reason.

There are things that are conceivably worth defending when discussing stories. I've got no issues with people passionately debating things. In my opinion, the scene with Mel was just laughably dumb & is not worth arguing over. Some things just are what they are. It's not the end of the world to admit that & move on.

 

[Yoboman]

Dude, I'm a father & an uncle. I've been around plenty of pregnant woman, including my wife. Pregnancies don't just go one specific way. They go plenty of different ways.

It's true that pregnant women are, usually, not completely infirm. Yes, most of the time physical activity is fine. But we're talking about getting into gunfights &, I'll say it once again, getting thrown around in the bed of a truck as it roars around crashing into walls & buildings at high speed.

The scene is dumb & I watched in incredulity. Not because women scare me. They don't. Not because I hate women in games. I don't. It's just dumb, for no real reason.

There are things that are conceivably worth defending when discussing stories. I've got no issues with people passionately debating things. In my opinion, the scene with Mel was just laughably dumb & is not worth arguing over. Some things just are what they are. It's not the end of the world to admit that & move on.

She didnt go out to get into a gunfight, she is an army medic going to the hospital the frontline of the WLF are located at. All 3 of them were called up by Isaac. Nothing dumb about it, if anything the ambush illustrated they are essentially in a war and at danger in every moment and they don't have the luxuries to expect an easy journey across the city

 

[Jon Neu]

She didnt go out to get into a gunfight

if anything the ambush illustrated they are essentially in a war and at danger in every moment

Are you one of the writters of TLOU2 by any chance?

 

[kuncol02]

WLF has a farm of livestock literally breeding in the middle of the stadium. Its not hard to imagine they're able to produce protein in large quantities.

You realize how much land you need to feed one person? Whole stadium would produce food for 20 people (max). If you go full vegetarian and with risk of starving. If you go with meat you need few times more of place. Whole football pitch of grass is probably enough to feed one, maybe two cows.

 

[Yoboman]

Are you one of the writters of TLOU2 by any chance?

Sorry, am I interrupting your circle jerk?

 

[Steve.1981]

She didnt go out to get into a gunfight, she is an army medic going to the hospital the frontline of the WLF are located at. All 3 of them were called up by Isaac. Nothing dumb about it, if anything the ambush illustrated they are essentially in a war and at danger in every moment and they don't have the luxuries to expect an easy journey across the city

Well if you want to go down this road, we can ask some simple questions of the writers.

Why did those 3 go out alone in 1 single truck, during this war when danger lurks around every corner? Why not send out a larger convoy with better defensive capabilities? Bigger trucks that don't have open beds? More people with more guns?

They have the capacity & the ability to do these things. If Isaac said he needed Mel, knowing she is heavily pregnant, I struggle to believe that he wouldn't send orders for her to be properly protected. I struggle to believe that her fellow soldiers wouldn't want to properly protect her.

It's a dumb situation, that can be easily avoided.

 

[Yoboman]

You realize how much land you need to feed one person? Whole stadium would produce food for 20 people (max). If you go full vegetarian and with risk of starving. If you go with meat you need few times more of place. Whole football pitch of grass is probably enough to feed one, maybe two cows.

That prime beef inside the stadium is all for alpha Abby

You drive past more farm land outside for the rest of the betas

 

[Yoboman]

Well if you want to go down this road, we can ask some simple questions of the writers.

Why did those 3 go out alone in 1 single truck, during this war when danger lurks around every corner? Why not send out a larger convoy with better defensive capabilities? Bigger trucks that don't have open beds? More people with more guns?

They have the capacity & the ability to do these things. If Isaac said he needed Mel, knowing she is heavily pregnant, I struggle to believe that he wouldn't send orders for her to be properly protected. I struggle to believe that her fellow soldiers wouldn't want to properly protect her.

It's a dumb situation, that can be easily avoided.

Because humans are dumb, can do irrational things or prioritise other things or don't have the capability to do things in the most ideal manner. They aren't supposed to be robots and who says Mel has that level of importance to command a convoy for protection? You're applying modern thinking to a post apocalyptic world

 

[Terenty]

How does a little girl Lev survives one month on a pole alongside a bodybuilder Abby who lost like 50% of her bodyweight?

Explosive Zombie, need your help asap

 

[Steve.1981]

Because humans are dumb, can do irrational things or prioritise other things or don't have the capability to do things in the most ideal manner. They aren't supposed to be robots and who says Mel has that level of importance to command a convoy for protection? You're applying modern thinking to a post apocalyptic world

Humans in positions of power & command, like Isaac, don't usually get to those positions if they're dumb, irrational & incapable of properly prioritising. Look at the structure (& infrastructure) of the WLF. These aren't a bunch of wasteland raiders, running around scavenging in a desperate struggle for survival every hour of every day. They're the most competent looking, well structured organisation that we've seen in both games.

Doesn't the game state outright that Mel is their most skilled doctor? I'm sure it did. Either way, she's pregnant dude. Like I said, I struggle to accept that these people would be so flippant about the wellbeing of this woman & her unborn child. That doesn't seem like modern thinking to me. It just seems like common sense.

 

[Ulysses 31]

How does a little girl Lev survives one month on a pole alongside a bodybuilder Abby who lost like 50% of her bodyweight?

Explosive Zombie, need your help asap

Nah, brah. You need to watch that Patrick Willems video and shut up about plot holes.


Yoboman needs to watch the counter arguments of that video if he really thinks his videos makes good points about plot holes rather than making false equivalences and straw mans.

 

[Jon Neu]

Sorry, am I interrupting your circle jerk?

Not at all, you are actually making it more amusing.

 

[rofif]

You can literally cure yourself in the game. And they know going out of the facility means danger is waiting for you at every corner.

Sorry, making your 40 lbs best female doctor who is also heavily pregnant go outside so she could have a little bit of "fresh air", it's literally retarded and doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

Cuckmann just had to introduce a badass pregnant woman because he gots off on this stuff and this is the lazy way he wrote it.

She is not a badass pregnant woman. She is just a weak ass pregnant woman. There is no agenda. The WLF are just crazy military people.
I also question them sending her out but it's what they did. It's not THAT very unimaginable

 

[rofif]

How does a little girl Lev survives one month on a pole alongside a bodybuilder Abby who lost like 50% of her bodyweight?

Explosive Zombie, need your help asap

They were imprisoned for few months going by what fat geralt says. I don't think we know how much of that time they did spend on the crucifix

 

[Terenty]

They were imprisoned for few months going by what fat geralt says. I don't think we know how much of that time they did spend on the crucifix

Judging by how Abby changed in appearance, do you think its possible for a little kid to survive alongside? After being punched by a giant man in the head i must add

 

[Ulysses 31]

They were imprisoned for few months going by what fat geralt says. I don't think we know how much of that time they did spend on the crucifix

Judging by what the prisoners told Ellie you can infer that she been hanging for a while if they think she's probably dead.

 

[rofif]

Judging by how Abby changed in appearance, do you think its possible for a little kid to survive alongside? After being punched by a giant man in the head i must add

idk. it's a tough kid? I don't know what is the study of survival ability of people being hang on the pole for hours/days.
You clearly see that lev is in worse state and cannot even move.

 

[Guilty_AI]

You guys still going with this discussion? Let it go already.

 

[Terenty]

idk. it's a tough kid? I don't know what is the study of survival ability of people being hang on the pole for hours/days.
You clearly see that lev is in worse state and cannot even move.

I dont know either i'm going by what the game shows me. A giant abby reduced to an almost walking skeleton and a little girl that somehow survived too.

 

[Tahj]

Finished the game a few days ago. I love the survival aspect, exploring, scrounge materials, sneak/kill/survive, finding notes/flavor lore, & the only time I was ready to stop playing was the ending sequences past the first farm section, because I felt there was a lot of 'credits? Oh, there's more game? (Continue playing) How about now? No? (Continue playing) Can it end already?' Ultimately I wasn't angry Ellie let Abby live, but do think it could've been more impactful (somehow...maybe more than one flash of Joel during the fight, or making the ending earlier, something...).

Because of the sections/levels, I ended up enjoying Abby's portion far more (the hotel getting to the street, followed by the hospital in particular...playing at night with my trusty cat having abandoned me for the while, I was super keyed up), & really liked her growing companionship with Lev.

Story wise, it seemed to be playing two games tied together by the barest of threads. Personally, I like Joel, & could empathize with his choice at the end of the first game. I was disappointed/surprised how little he was in Part II, & maybe that is part of why I wasn't as keen on the Ellie sections.

Overall, I'd say maybe an 8? I enjoyed everything but the story so much that it overshadowed my disappointments with the tale as it was told. That said, this is a game I'll likely play the NG+ run & never touch again.

 

[Explosive Zombie]

Nah, brah. You need to watch that Patrick Willems video and shut up about plot holes.


Yoboman needs to watch the counter arguments of that video if he really thinks his videos makes good points about plot holes rather than making false equivalences and straw mans.

Crap video, having a rebuttal video doesn't mean your points have been reduced, especially when the rebuttal video is this bad.

 

[joe_zazen]

maybe she just doent give a fuck about kids? So she gets punch in the gut and the kid comes out with problems, or better yet dies so they dont have that mouth to feed.

She probably gets hammered and smokes, it is the apocalypse after all.

 

[Ulysses 31]

Crap video, having a rebuttal video doesn't mean your points have been reduced, especially when the rebuttal video is this bad.

Name some bad rebuttal points made in the video then.

And you really gonna ignore these vague points Patrick makes with his "Human beings are not logical", "people make mistakes" to handwave away dumb things characters do?
Patrick's defending a lot of points people aren't making with his 40 hour movie and 100% logical humans comments.

 

[joe_zazen]

I would ask them why you need to cut them right away, like immediately, instead of making absolutely sure that is the only way.
Like, the humanity is dead, what difference do a couple weeks or a couple months make?



She looks bigger than a lot of olympic weightlifers off the juice. She's on the juice exactly like the model they used for her body.

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the point of my question is that only a true psychopath would give up somebody they love to a stranger, even if they were dressed in doctor clothes. I wouldn't even give up my dog,lol.

The game is not realistic, sure it might pretend to be or feel real, but it is a videogame. For example:

One of the most severe methods of crucifixion put the arms straight above the victim. "That can [kill in] 10 minutes to half an hour - it's just impossible to breathe under those conditions," Ward says.

—- some expert from the Guardian.

Mario eats flowers and spits fire, abbey is built like a male pro USA footballer and pregnant women like risking their babies for badass points. Videogames.

 

[Sethbacca]

Because of the sections/levels, I ended up enjoying Abby's portion far more (the hotel getting to the street, followed by the hospital in particular...playing at night with my trusty cat having abandoned me for the while, I was super keyed up), & really liked her growing companionship with Lev.

Agreed. Abby definitely got some of the better sequences. The sky bridges and shit getting to the hospital was intense, that fucking monstrosity at the end of the hospital, and Haven was pretty intense as well.

And almost forgot that initial nighttime chase sequence from the stalkers through the auto shops and shit. That was pretty crazy too.

 

[psorcerer]

Remorse, no. Just like Joel, Ellie, and Tommy, she is too stubborn for remorse -- to feel like she was the one in the wrong.

But she was punished. Everybody was. And like everybody else, she will suffer through and for it.

Ellie shows a pretty well directed remorse after killing Abbie's "friends".
I don't relly care about punishment though, because it's all authors tricks to make me love Abbie. And I see these tricks from a mile.
Again, author's dick is too small to be able to fuck my mind with these cheap pseudo-punishment antics.

 

[psorcerer]

1. The game 100% stated he could do it, actually. They specifically said they were going to cure it.

2. Did you play the whole game? Near the end it's found out they have a new base and have been growing in number.

3. You keep glossing over the "he disarmed him" part.

4. Joel is a character who's actions you didn't have full control over, you can't decide how to deal with the surgeon, you either go to him and let the cut-scene of Joel killing him play or get murdered for not doing it. You have no choice not because the doctor MUST die but because you MUST play as Joel and Joel is going to do this.

1. No in the first game you find plenty of evidence that they tried before and did not succeed. The 100% absolute success is only pedaled in TLOU2 to support authors decision to abandon Ellie and Joel.

2. Rebuilding a new base means there were wiped out.

3. Straw grasping. There is abundance of sharp objects that can be used against Joel while he picks Ellie from the bed. And all other doctors may help. After killing the one who was asking for it others would be terrified and won't interfere. And that's what happens.
Again, what's the point of the doctor picking up a scalpel? If you pick up a weapon and not gonna use it - it will be used against you.
You need to understand: the doctor is painted as a bad person. He's willing to sacrifice a child for "greater good", he was going to do it in secret (Marlene told Joel, he wanted to just kill Ellie routinely), he's a pretty capable hunter and tries to kill Joel. He has no redeemable qualities.

4. Thanks for proving the author's tyranny point. What else?

 

[Raonak]

I love the argument that the writers are just trying to manipulate the audience.

Yes. that is what stories are.
writers intentionally put characters into situations to create an emotional response.

So many of the "bad writing" criticisms/nitpicking can be applied to TLOU1.
-so joel's teenage daughter died and now he has to escort another teenage girl. so heavy handed!
-tess successfully survived for all these years and finally gets infected now??
-Bill is gay!? fucking SJW pandering.
-in winter, joel recovered just in time for him to rescue ellie? bad writing!
-blatant emotional manipulation by making it so the cure requires ellie's death.
-no cure? whats even the point of the game? it's just a pointless failed sidequest.
-joel shows no remorse for killing the doctor or marlene. what a psychopath.

I'm curious what these people consider a good videogame story.

 

[Jon Neu]

She is not a badass pregnant woman. She is just a weak ass pregnant woman.

She's out there fighting zombies, militias, climbing buildings. She is a badass pregnant woman until the plot decides to make her stupid and suicide herself so Abby can have another cheap scene to sympathize with her.

The WLF are just crazy military people.
I also question them sending her out but it's what they did. It's not THAT very unimaginable

They are militars, therefore they risk getting rid of their doctor for no reason.

It's not that very unimaginable. Military people are retarded!

 

[psorcerer]

I love the argument that the writers are just trying to manipulate the audience.

Yes. that is what stories are.
writers intentionally put characters into situations to create an emotional response.

Yup. That's why good authors are pretty discreet about it.
They don't announce out loud: we are gonna make you like our new character, no matter what.
They try hard to make the story look genuine and true.
Not the case in TLOU2 (and it seems like, you're right, it wasn't the case in TLOU either, but then authors were pretty discreet, and we did not know that).

 

[Explosive Zombie]

Name some bad rebuttal points made in the video then.

And you really gonna ignore these vague points Patrick makes with his "Human beings are not logical", "people make mistakes" to handwave away dumb things characters do?
Patrick's defending a lot of points people aren't making with his 40 hour movie and 100% logical humans comments.

People aren't logical, they do make mistakes, the question is is are the mistakes in character for that person? If the character development supports the character's mistakes then there's nothing wrong with the writing. Also name some bad points made in a 5 hour video? You know part of the problem with the idiots in that video is they throw every critique at the wall they can and just hope some stick instead of sticking to things they know for certain are flawed, or simply what's important. The only people who have time for 5 hours of tearing down something that lasts less than 20 minutes are people who enjoy self-flagellation as much as these guys do.

1. No in the first game you find plenty of evidence that they tried before and did not succeed. The 100% absolute success is only pedaled in TLOU2 to support authors decision to abandon Ellie and Joel.

2. Rebuilding a new base means there were wiped out.

3. Straw grasping. There is abundance of sharp objects that can be used against Joel while he picks Ellie from the bed. And all other doctors may help. After killing the one who was asking for it others would be terrified and won't interfere. And that's what happens.
Again, what's the point of the doctor picking up a scalpel? If you pick up a weapon and not gonna use it - it will be used against you.
You need to understand: the doctor is painted as a bad person. He's willing to sacrifice a child for "greater good", he was going to do it in secret (Marlene told Joel, he wanted to just kill Ellie routinely), he's a pretty capable hunter and tries to kill Joel. He has no redeemable qualities.

4. Thanks for proving the author's tyranny point. What else?

1.They didn't try on an immune person, so not a real point. Not sure how 100% success is any more said in 2 than 1, maybe show me the contrasting evidence? The dialogue in 1 supports the idea they would be successful, same in 2, neither one contradicts the other, please bring specific examples to prove otherwise.

2. In order to be wiped out there'd have to be no one left to rebuild, in the game's narrative they don't get "wiped out" it's just without leadership a lot of people LEAVE and the power structure fractures, some of them make up the WLF, for instance, but some decide to keep the Fireflies alive, that's not wiped out.

3. "straw grasping" or grasping at straws is what I call someone claiming "they could grab sharp objects" by that logic you should be forced to kill the other two nurses as well, right? So, Joel killed the one to terrify the others into submission? Sounds like a swell guy and not a monster. The point of picking up the scalpel is to show Joel how much it meant to him, saving the human race. Joel no more needed to kill him than Superman needs to kill a thug with a gun. No redeemable qualities? It's absolutely morally bad to sacrifice one to save potentially millions? This would require an extensive philosophical debate but rest assured you are not the arbiter of what does or does not make someone a bad person.

4. Stop using this tyranny of the author bs, it's not a real argument and doesn't mean anything. It's not author tyranny that Joel acts in character. It is IN CHARACTER for Joel to murder those people in cold blood for Ellie, it is IN CHARACTER for Joel to do it regardless of whether or not they knew for a 100% certainty she could cure everyone. The excuses you make for Joel are not excuses he'd make for himself, he knows what he did and it haunts him even if he'd never change what he did. You're own inability to cope with Joel's decisions makes you look more emotionally immature than a video game character who doomed the human race.

 

[psorcerer]

1.They didn't try on an immune person, so not a real point. Not sure how 100% success is any more said in 2 than 1, maybe show me the contrasting evidence? The dialogue in 1 supports the idea they would be successful, same in 2, neither one contradicts the other, please bring specific examples to prove otherwise.

2. In order to be wiped out there'd have to be no one left to rebuild, in the game's narrative they don't get "wiped out" it's just without leadership a lot of people LEAVE and the power structure fractures, some of them make up the WLF, for instance, but some decide to keep the Fireflies alive, that's not wiped out.

3. "straw grasping" or grasping at straws is what I call someone claiming "they could grab sharp objects" by that logic you should be forced to kill the other two nurses as well, right? So, Joel killed the one to terrify the others into submission? Sounds like a swell guy and not a monster. The point of picking up the scalpel is to show Joel how much it meant to him, saving the human race. Joel no more needed to kill him than Superman needs to kill a thug with a gun. No redeemable qualities? It's absolutely morally bad to sacrifice one to save potentially millions? This would require an extensive philosophical debate but rest assured you are not the arbiter of what does or does not make someone a bad person.

4. Stop using this tyranny of the author bs, it's not a real argument and doesn't mean anything. It's not author tyranny that Joel acts in character. It is IN CHARACTER for Joel to murder those people in cold blood for Ellie, it is IN CHARACTER for Joel to do it regardless of whether or not they knew for a 100% certainty she could cure everyone. The excuses you make for Joel are not excuses he'd make for himself, he knows what he did and it haunts him even if he'd never change what he did. You're own inability to cope with Joel's decisions makes you look more emotionally immature than a video game character who doomed the human race.

1. It doesn't matter at all. 100% success in these defies all logic and reason. Complete bullshit, no matter how you look at it.

2. Anyway, they were dead and rebuilt from shambles.

3. I am an arbiter, because I'm the audience. And the doctor has no redeemable qualities. He would not sacrifice his own daughter. For me he's an absolute monster. And it's not my fault that somebody has a different opinion.

4. It haunts him in TLOU2, where his decision is shoeghorned into a questionable one by the authors. I'm as the audience is the final arbiter. And I can say: authors, fuck off with your ideas. I don't buy it.