Support NeoGAF

[Gavin Stevens]

Lets join that team blurr guy and we can animate a fish across his 1 screen.....We can use PRT+ so we only use the mipmap in view Frustum.

Ok, so now you're just talking shit, to spam up the thread. No intelligent conversation, no back and forth discussion. Just spamming bullshit like this. Pretty pathetic mate.

Of Xbox having something, anything, and it being explained in detail while still taking about how ps5 is better, if that really offends you... man all I can say is I'm sorry your life is that sad.

 

[Great Hair]

The simple truth is PS5 answers xboxes power by extreme optimisation. Xbox answers Ps5s amazing throughput with their own advancements such as VA/BCP/SFS.

Neither are quite as good as the other in this regard, but both are incredibly awesome machines that are nearly on par.

This seems to offend a lot of people though, which is quite sad.

Indeed, very much sad.

That there are people out there, who truly believe a software (mind you it´s coming for PCs aswell among directstorage "ahem nvidia has it too"), is capable of closing the gap with hardware 129% faster, all while having half the channels .. etc.etc.etc.

Yet what we have seen so far "The Cave 1GB small game, takes 6.5 Second to load" and with Phil Spencer´s never ending backpedaling ... i´m going to wait for August. How´s the PC gonna handle that? All on software? DX12U?

Truly magical, hot stuff

 

[Herr Edgy]

I've exhausted my self trying to understand the XVA, even reaching out to actual devs and software engineers in the industry and the explanations make me feel like I should just go back and finish my degree

I have a CS degree and sometimes don't understand jackshit lol

Just goes to show how there is a huge playing field. Some players might not ever see each other, even though they are walking on the same plane.

 

[Bernkastel]

Ok, so now you're just talking shit, to spam up the thread. No intelligent conversation, no back and forth discussion. Just spamming bullshit like this. Pretty pathetic mate.

Of Xbox having something, anything, and it being explained in detail while still taking about how ps5 is better, if that really offends you... man all I can say is I'm sorry your life is that sad.

Dude stop answering them, they only listen when it confirms their own bias.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Dude stop answering them, they only listen when it confirms their own bias.

That seems oddly ironic though...

 

[geordiemp]

I have an indie studio, which was created while working for a very long time in a professionally capacity, due to me becoming ill. I can't do everything all by myself, because who can animate, model, texture, code, do sound design etc? And yet you think this some how makes my experience any less qualified to answer questions, or chat about tech? I love the fact you think I'm a painter in my bedroom. This is brilliant. I wish I was.

But please, continue to run rings around everything just to avoid the actual topic of discussion, because, I dunno, you seem to feel threatened that it's not pro Sony? I dont know, what exactly is your angle here with this post?

Essentially you appear to be trolling, again, another thread that talks anything positive about Xbox. To the point you even stalk my own forums, which aren't even active, for ammo. Sounds a little... insecure to me?

Tell us about the ps5 and XSX dev kits that you commented on. Oh no you dont have them

So why post pretending to be an authority ?

You can join the people who dont know like everyone else, because those that do are under NDA.

 

[Bernkastel]

Why is it not so clever people all they can do is personal insults ?

You are just describing yourself.

Indeed, very much sad.

That there are people out there, who truly believe a software (mind you it´s coming for PCs aswell among directstorage "ahem nvidia has it too"), is capable of closing the gap with hardware 129% faster, all while having half the channels .. etc.etc.etc.

Yet what we have seen so far "The Cave 1GB small game, takes 6.5 Second to load" and with Phil Spencer´s never ending backpedaling ... i´m going to wait for August. How´s the PC gonna handle that? All on software? DX12U?

Truly magical, hot stuff

XVA is all software ? I guess there are some keywords you have made up, dont like something - its all software. If it was all software, it would be on PC too.

 

[geordiemp]

Ok, so now you're just talking shit, to spam up the thread. No intelligent conversation, no back and forth discussion. Just spamming bullshit like this. Pretty pathetic mate.

Of Xbox having something, anything, and it being explained in detail while still taking about how ps5 is better, if that really offends you... man all I can say is I'm sorry your life is that sad.

So tell me what the performance cost is for blending using SFS talked about in DX12 ult, while we are at it what differences do you see between the MS claims and PRT+.

Thought not, next. Hardware then

Lets talk about the 7nm + and EUV lithography and how the latest ALD helped the FINFET design at TSMC. I visit TSMC, do you. What do you think of the latest high K developments. Or should we discuss MoCVD and its applications,

Come on then, lets get technical .....oh he is gone.

 

[Bernkastel]

So tell me what the performance cost is for blending using SFS talked about in DX12 ult, while we are at it what differences do you see between the MS claims and PRT+.

Thought not, next.

Why would he? Is he your personal validation poster?

 

[sircaw]

I like how people think they are really smart because they participate in the Next Gen Speculation thread.

Time to leave this magical fairy land.
Three clicks to Kansas here i come.

 

[Gavin Stevens]

So tell me what the performance cost is for blending using SFS talked about in DX12 ult, while we are at it what differences do you see between the MS claims and PRT+.

Thought not, next.

What you actually just said makes no sense.

Blending had a greater performance cost to fillrate, not just memory. By its very nature a blended image is more expensive to a) render and b) lod into memory due to using a form of either alpha blending or alpha masking, however an alpha masked surface is lighter on performance at a decrease of both visual presentation (but is easier to sort from a sorting order perspective).

However you have no clue what I'm on about as you're only here to act the fool, so please continue.

 

[geordiemp]

What you actually just said makes no sense.

Blending had a greater performance cost to fillrate, not just memory. By its very nature a blended image is more expensive to a) render and b) lod into memory due to using a form of either alpha blending or alpha masking, however an alpha masked surface is lighter on performance at a decrease of both visual presentation (but is easier to sort from a sorting order perspective).

However you have no clue what I'm on about as you're only here to act the fool, so please continue.

Are its odium, the bird guy who talked about being an insider.

You full of it lol. 15 pidgeons.

 

[Bernkastel]

Are its odium, the bird guy who talked about being an insider.

You full of it lol. 15 pidgeons.

Seems to me you are.

 

[Deto]

Impressive how frustrated the guys are.

already has 10 TF vs 12TF, but you have to come up with hidden software that makes the performance equal on the SSD too.


what's wrong with accepting that it's 5.5GB/s vs 9GB/s?

Wasn't the hidden GPU enough?
the power of the cloud?
the DX12?

Now it's another magical software that matches the performance with the PS5's SSD.

You don't really learn.

IF DELIVERED IN PRACTICE MORE THAN 5.5GB / s MS would TALK THAT.

 

[Gavin Stevens]

Are its odium, the bird guy who talked about being an insider.

You full of it lol. 15 pidgeons.

You mean the guy who posted actual dates that came true, and got the upper limits correct first time until he stupidly listened to follow up tips? Yeah ok mate.

Would you like to bring up my ex girlfriends from high school as well?

What are you even doing in this thread, because its not discussion.

 

[Bernkastel]

Impressive how frustrated the guys are.

already has 10 TF vs 12TF, but you have to come up with hidden software that makes the performance equal on the SSD too.


what's wrong with accepting that it's 5.5GB/s vs 9GB/s?

Wasn't the hidden GPU enough?
the power of the cloud?
the DX12?

Now it's another magical software that matches the performance with the PS5's SSD.

You don't really learn.

IF DELIVERED IN PRACTICE MORE THAN 5.5GB / s MS would TALK THAT.

leaks man tears about 'xbox fanboys'

You seem more frustrated though.

 

[Gavin Stevens]

Impressive how frustrated the guys are.

already has 10 TF vs 12TF, but you have to come up with hidden software that makes the performance equal on the SSD too.


what's wrong with accepting that it's 5.5GB/s vs 9GB/s?

Wasn't the hidden GPU enough?
the power of the cloud?
the DX12?

Now it's another magical software that matches the performance with the PS5's SSD.

You don't really learn.

IF DELIVERED IN PRACTICE MORE THAN 5.5GB / s MS would TALK THAT.

They, erm... they did. Only it's not about increasing throughput, it's about minimising the size of files that are needed to be loaded, negating the need for it in the first place.

It's just a different way of doing things that's all. Why is that so bad?

 

[geordiemp]

You mean the guy who posted actual dates that came true, and got the upper limits correct first time u too he stupidly listened to follow up tips? Yeah ok mate.

Would you like to bring up my ex girlfriends from high school as well?

What are you even doing in this thread, because its not discussion.

Ok lets have fun, my profession is hardware but I will discuss other stuff

A technique called Sampler Feedback Streaming - SFS - was built to more closely marry the memory demands of the GPU, intelligently loading in the texture mip data that's actually required with the guarantee of a lower quality mip available if the higher quality version isn't readily available, stopping GPU stalls and frame-time spikes. Bespoke hardware within the GPU is available to smooth the transition between mips, on the off-chance that the higher quality texture arrives a frame or two later.

Goosen quote above, SFS helps blend late arriving mipmaps and the cost is hinted at in DX12 ult (which we can explore next, SFS is not a free lunch)

MS marketing reads awfully like old PRT virtual texture stuff - what do you think ?

Watchdogs

When using virtual texturing, you will only load the texture tiles into memory that are actually viewed by the virtual camera. The main benefit is that you can save on the amount of video memory that you need for you texture data, but there are a bunch of side benefits. Loading times are reduced and disk access is more constant and predictable. The bottom-line is that you can really increase the graphical fidelity of games, while staying within the limited of the current hardware.

I can quote virtual texturing all day.

And then we have uE5, which using nanite streaming there are no traditional mipmaps anyway and it does its own pixel selection and culling it appears so....SFS has no use here anyway.

 

[Bernkastel]

You guys here arguing and he is getting the nod from Graphics Optimization R&D and Engine Architect of Xbox.

 

[Gavin Stevens]

"Let's have fun?" mate I'm done with you. Utterly stupid you are even trying to turn things around like this. You appear in every thread that has anything Xbox related in it, and continue to shit it up.

I haven't got the time. I was gonna just let it be, as I hate blocking people on here. But man, you just continue to shit threads up. Toodles.

 

[pasterpl]

This guy doesn't know how to number his tweets. On a serious note, while I am not that familiar with team blur games, his explanation makes sort of sense to me. i am taking it with a bit of scepticism, but if true it might actually mean that Sony bruteforced their solution while MS created a more sophisticated system, that is better balanced across the board.

 

[Nikana]

You guys here arguing and he is getting the nod from Graphics Optimization R&D and Engine Architect of Xbox.

Pfffffftttt. What would he know?

 

[48086]

Friendly reminder, there are currently many more ps fans than xbox fans that read gaming news. Therefore, the majority of journalists/gaming sites are going to have a pro sony slant so they can get those clicks. More clicks = more money. That's how it works.

 

[Gavin Stevens]

This guy doesn't know how to number his tweets. On a serious note, while I am not that familiar with team blur games, his explanation makes sort of sense to me. i am taking it with a bit of scepticism, but if true it might actually mean that Sony bruteforced their solution while MS created a more sophisticated system, that is better balanced across the board.

I actually said that at the end, I didn't notice I numbered them like a tool. Twitter is bloody awful, I don't know why they can't just let you post a tweet that then easily links all together with no spaces.

Your second point though, both systems are brilliant from a technology and creation point of view, they just do things differently. Will be a very exciting generation.

 

[GlassAwful]

Let's just cut out the middle man and learn this stuff ourselves shall we?

https://microsoft.github.io/DirectX-Specs/d3d/SamplerFeedback.html

OP didn't mention the primary differentiation of SFS from other texture streaming techniques, which is the loading AND shading of only portions of a mip level using the minmip and feedback map functionality.

It seems to me the biggest performance impact here is not spending shading resources on backsides objects in view of camera. Seems redundant with geometry culling features of RDNA2.

 

[Leyasu]

Ok lets have fun, my profession is hardware but I will discuss other stuff



Goosen quote above, SFS helps blend late arriving mipmaps and the cost is hinted at in DX12 ult (which we can explore next, SFS is not a free lunch)

MS marketing reads awfully like old PRT virtual texture stuff - what do you think ?

Watchdogs



I can quote virtual texturing all day.

And then we have uE5, which using nanite streaming there are no tradional mipmaps anyway and it does its own pixel selection and culling it appears so....SFS has no use here anyway.

How you continue to fly under the radar in xbox threads is simply staggering

"Let's have fun?" mate I'm done with you. Utterly stupid you are even trying to turn things around like this. You appear in every thread that has anything Xbox related in it, and continue to shit it up.

I haven't got the time. I was gonna just let it be, as I hate blocking people on here. But man, you just continue to shit threads up. Toodles.

Blocking people like him is hard. It's almost like rubber-necking a car crash. Even though you have him on ignore, the urge to check the shit that he has posted is strong. The mods need to step in

 

[geordiemp]

"Let's have fun?" mate I'm done with you. Utterly stupid you are even trying to turn things around like this. You appear in every thread that has anything Xbox related in it, and continue to shit it up.

I haven't got the time. I was gonna just let it be, as I hate blocking people on here. But man, you just continue to shit threads up. Toodles.

YOU DO NOT KNOW.

Your not a technical dev. Its clear.

You referenced ps5 so I am here to discuss with someone who claims is a technical developer

Just go ad hominem, everyone else does around here who are not smart to discuss and they dont understand technical stuff.

No I am not animating for you.

See ya.

 

[pasterpl]

"Let's have fun?" mate I'm done with you. Utterly stupid you are even trying to turn things around like this. You appear in every thread that has anything Xbox related in it, and continue to shit it up.

I haven't got the time. I was gonna just let it be, as I hate blocking people on here. But man, you just continue to shit threads up. Toodles.

Quick question, did you had a hands on time with ps5 dev kit and xbsex one? Just wondering how do you know if ps5 will not have SFS equivalent?

also in regards to SFS, did you had a chance to actually experiment with it And this is what you are basing your tweets on?

 

[Gavin Stevens]

Let's just cut out the middle man and learn this stuff ourselves shall we?

https://microsoft.github.io/DirectX-Specs/d3d/SamplerFeedback.html

OP didn't mention the primary differentiation of SFS from other texture streaming techniques, which is the loading AND shading of only portions of a mip level using the minmip and feedback map functionality.

It seems to me the biggest performance impact here is not spending shading resources on backsides objects in view of camera. Seems redundant with geometry culling features of RDNA2.

That would fall more under GPU work load than SSD optimisation, sowhile yeah bang on correct, it's not really what that was getting at, though could have gone more into detail later with further examples. You have to remember that twitter is full of people who just know about as much as push power button console turns on. I wanted to try and break it down to bite size understandable levels.

 

[geordiemp]

Quick question, did you had a hands on time with ps5 dev kit and xbsex one? Just wondering how do you know if ps5 will not have SFS equivalent?

also in regards to SFS, did you had a chance to actually experiment with it And this is what you are basing your tweets on?

No he has not got a clue and wont even engage with a hardware engineer on software. LOL..

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Dude stop answering them, they only listen when it confirms their own bias.

Are you the Titiana McGrath of NeoGAF? I honestly can't tell.

 

[Nikana]

YOU DO NOT KNOW.

Your not a technical dev. Its clear.

Just go ad hominem, everyone else does around here who are not smart to discuss and they dont understand technical stuff.

No I am not animating for you.

See ya.

 

[Gavin Stevens]

Quick question, did you had a hands on time with ps5 dev kit and xbsex one? Just wondering how do you know if ps5 will not have SFS equivalent?

also in regards to SFS, did you had a chance to actually experiment with it And this is what you are basing your tweets on?

As I said, no, and no. And I was up front with that in my tweets. I would kill for either kit, but will sadly get my first taste of things the same as everybody else.

As for the information, there are many breakdowns available now, and Microsoft went into great detail in several places recently about what everything does.

My explanation was simply a more understandable version of that. Sometimes, you have no idea what a polygon is, but can understand the idea behind it when explained in a different way.

 

[Bernkastel]

Are you the Titiana McGrath of NeoGAF? I honestly can't tell.

Someone who complains about console manufacturers not doing online games because Fortnite is so successful seems more like a parody account to me.

 

[geordiemp]

As I said, no, and no. And I was up front with that in my tweets. I would kill for either kit, but will sadly get my first taste of things the same as everybody else.

As for the information, there are many breakdowns available now, and Microsoft went into great detail in several places recently about what everything does.

My explanation was simply a more understandable version of that. Sometimes, you have no idea what a polygon is, but can understand the idea behind it when explained in a different way.

So you spent 20 tweets telling us about how good SFS is and how XSX will catch ps5, but you never seen a dev kit and wont discuss with me SFS hardware, PRT+ and Nanite.

Look, go read up on it and we can discuss tomorrow.

 

[Lestat Phoenix]

No, but they're reliable and they've both said the developers they've spoken to prefer the PS5.

Complete bullshit no one has said that..

 

[Ryuji Goda]

People actually getting mad in these threads. Is it 2005 again?

 

[pawel86ck]

Lets join that team blurr guy and we can animate a fish across his 1 screen.....We can use PRT+ so we only use the mipmap in view Frustum.

You are the devil incarnate man, nothing can stop you from trolling xbox threads (especially when XSX advantage is mentioned). You are a funny person, so I can tolerate that, but at leat please behave yourself. Insulting people and their work is a little bit too much.

(For people who havent played Max Payne, Georiemp is not my friend )

 

[pasterpl]

No, but they're reliable and they've both said the developers they've spoken to prefer the PS5.

so basically hearsay

 

[SlimySnake]

The simple truth is PS5 answers xboxes power by extreme optimisation. Xbox answers Ps5s amazing throughput with their own advancements such as VA/BCP/SFS.

Neither are quite as good as the other in this regard, but both are incredibly awesome machines that are nearly on par.

This seems to offend a lot of people though, which is quite sad.

It does and it kinda sucks because both consoles like you said are incredibly powerful.

I think the problem is when it starts to become desperate. I see people try to argue that the PS5 will have 44% worse ray tracing even though the tflops gap is only 18%. I have seen people constantly bring up the 8-9 tflops 'true' tflops figures. it just reeks of desperation. Now granted, these people might end up being right come launch and cross gen games might end up having 50% better resolution on xsx, but as for right now there is nothing indicating that to be the case.

Your tweets are likely well intention-ed, but they dont come off that way. It feels like you are making excuses. It feels like you are trying to bridge a gap that simply cannot be bridged. I am sure that if a PS fan went out and started saying that the cache scrubbers in the PS5 gpu would bridge the 18% gap in tflops, it would offend a bunch of people as well.

The funny thing is that i really dont think the SSD and I/O stuff will matter that much next gen. the PS5 conference is proof of that. only one game used it and that too for a gimmick that 99% of the games wont use. Sony is harping about the SSD because its the one advantage they have, just like MS with tflops. When it comes to games, it really wont amount to much. So all this mudslinging back and forth is for no reason.

 

[cm osi]

so xbox got a secret sauce too, shocking
it's like those custom machines are developed after research and not sloppily slapped together

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

You are the devil incarnate man, nothing can stop you from trolling xbox threads (especially when XSX advantage is mentioned). You are a funny person, so I can tolerate that, but at leat please behave yourself. Insulting people and their work is a little bit too much.

This is war boy

 

[Neo Blaster]

That's o'dium, our very own pidgeon insider, who got a lot of coo-coos wrong before Cerny's deep dive.

These consoles cannot come soon enough, getting tired of so many arm chair technicians and devs without devkits.

 

[demigod]

That's o'dium, our very own pidgeon insider, who got a lot of coo-coos wrong before Cerny's deep dive.

I'm not sure what's worse. 52 coo's or going mia after the reveal and pretending he had Covid-19?

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

You guys here arguing and he is getting the nod from Graphics Optimization R&D and Engine Architect of Xbox.

Interesting James uses the phrase 'fine grained' as that is exact same phrase Granite use to describe their advanced texture streaming middleware used all this generation:

We call Granite SDK a fine-grained streaming system because we load very small tiles of texture data. This is happening in the background while playing the game. The size of the tiles is configurable but a commonly used setting is 128×128 pixels. When using virtual texturing, you will only load the texture tiles into memory that are actually viewed by the virtual camera. The main benefit is that you can save on the amount of video memory that you need for you texture data, but there are a bunch of side benefits. Loading times are reduced and disk access is more constant and predictable. The bottom-line is that you can really increase the graphical fidelity of games, while staying within the limited of the current hardware.

Granite SDK Interview: Delivering Next-Gen Texture streaming And Compression Middleware

gamingbolt.com

Now I don't doubt SFS is nice addition to the SDK/middleware tool kit, but it really isn't a revolution from what I can tell and I'm sure all platforms will benefit from the same or similar.

SFS as James says takes what the above description of Granite explains is done this gen and then goes a little further and uses only part of a mip (rather than all) further saving RAM/time etc.

That is how I read and understand it.

 

[Gavin Stevens]

I'm not sure what's worse. 52 coo's or going mia after the reveal and pretending he had Covid-19?

Dude I had symptoms, was still here posting you tart however the coo stuff will appear on my gravestone as a monumental misfire that's for sure

 

[geordiemp]

Interesting James uses the phrase 'fine grained' as that is exact same phrase Granite use to describe their advanced texture streaming middleware used all this generation:

Granite SDK Interview: Delivering Next-Gen Texture streaming And Compression Middleware

gamingbolt.com

Now I don't doubt SFS is nice addition to the SDK/middleware tool kit, but it really isn't a revolution from what I can tell and I'm sure all platforms will benefit from the same or similar.

SFS as James says takes what the above description of Granite explains is done this gen and then goes a little further and uses only part of a mip (rather than all) further saving RAM/time etc.

That is how I read and understand it.

And granite is old shit as well, dated in 2014.....Was used in Watchdogs....And now people are quoting the same shit back to us as some secret IO sauce. Beggars belief.

SFS just stops the really HARSH pop in is the simple way to look at it.

Yes all the rest of the blurb is like reading Carmack tributes and advances in PRT+ for the last 8 years LOL.

Does not matter anyway, Cant use any of it in nanite and that engine will go places.

 

[Mod of War]

Dial back the meta drama and personal attacks towards each other. If you can't discredit the information and must resort to attacks on one's character, then remove yourself from the conversation all together.

MoW has games to play, kids! Thank you.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

Dial back the meta drama and personal attacks towards each other. If you can't discredit the information and must resort to attacks on one's character, then remove yourself from the conversation all together.

MoW has games to play, kids! Thank you.

 

[pawel86ck]

Why dont you debate with me about SFS and DX12 ult and differntials to PRT+

Nobody else will. I thought if he was a dev we could explore

Gaming is just my hobby, and because my knowledge in regards to coding is limited I'm not going to pretend I know everything about SFS and argue about it.

Because you are making fun from Odium and his programming skills (you are making fun even from his health and wife) let me ask you something, what's your programming credentials? You are criticizing not only Odium but also MS engineers, so I guess you must be a software developer with many years of experience?