Support NeoGAF

[PaNaMa]

$599 USD , comes with 1 year of Game Pass as value add.

 

[Thirty7ven]

$599 USD , comes with 1 year of Game Pass as value add.

No chance.

 

[Werewolfgrandma]

We know how flops translate to image. Is there even a way to translate flops to sound.... "performance"? Or "quality"?
How different is 100gflops? (or 300? Or 500?)
To me it's a unit really hard to interpret in real life usage.

It doesn't translate to much. Tv speakers are going to suck. They might say hey buy a Sony tv and it will work better if you sit exactly in this position but every other tv will be just as bad as now for tv speakers. Hrtf is cool but you can't make a fake solution for everyone since our ears are different shapes. This ever drop of rain is kinda dumb. Go stand outside in the rain and tell me if you can hear every individual drop or of its more of just noise from everywhere. Things will sound better though. More like real life in that real location and less of repeat sounds.

Yes, and to really appreciate that you either need a kick-ass audio system in your home (TV speakers simply will not cut it), or extremely expensive headphones. Or at least really good headphones that'll probably set you back $150 - $200.

It's little things like that which'll probably make next-gen a bit more expensive than it'll appear on paper for people who want the ultimate experience (that isn't PC).

There are no good 150$ headphones. There are good for 150$ headphones though. You can't just plug a good set of headphones into a controller and expect magic. You will need an amp to properly power them. Headphones and audio is actually something I'm really into so for once I'm not just taking out my ass.

 

[Nikana]

On par with 2060. If you that consider as "nuts", then OK

Tag checks out.

 

[Thirty7ven]

It doesn't translate to much. Tv speakers are going to suck.

The focus on sound sources is missing the point, and the point is RT audio.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

So Zen2 with 8MB L3 cache, not that much tho. CPU is probably around AMD RYZEN 7 PRO 4750G .

Seems like it's not going to be cheap:

Seems like MS have some Audio secret sauce too:

More slides here:

Microsoft Xbox Series X's AMD Architecture Deep Dive at Hot Chips 2020

AMD's next-gen console APUs come out of hiding.

www.tomshardware.com

Is there like a video to watch?

 

[M1chl]

Is there like a video to watch?

It's 2 hours away apparently...

 

[TJC]

So, Series X is still stronger than the PS5?

It's always been "stronger". The problem is so was the One X and MS didn't have a game that looked better than PS4 first party still. ( In my opinion) MS need to really nail the games for first party and everything we've heard is pointing towards no XSX only games until 2022 at least.

 

[VFXVeteran]

Not really, they will perform similarly.

Ps5 better rasterisation and pixel fill rate / General caches, XSX stronger on shaders and Ray tracing.

Ps5 likely has a patent on compression of GPU vertices shader transfer to pixel shader which will pick up some slack, how much is unknown

Both are nice, doing things differently

Games today are shader bound. Especially as they strive for more complex BRDFs.

 

[DavidGzz]

But if it cost $400, why not just buy them an X1S for Fortnite? Or allow them to keep their X1S and save on not getting a new console.

Because it will be at least $500 and that is selling at a loss. X1S is not future proof. Just because Fortnite may always play on it doesn't mean the kid won't want to play other games that may be next gen only. So do I pay $200 for a console that has two years left in it or $300 for XSS that will last the whole generation? Easy XSS purchase.

 

[Gaz]

This thing is a beast.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

It's 2 hours away apparently...

Thanks! Need to keep them closer, you know.

 

[intheinbetween]

It doesn't translate to much. Tv speakers are going to suck. They might say hey buy a Sony tv and it will work better if you sit exactly in this position but every other tv will be just as bad as now for tv speakers. Hrtf is cool but you can't make a fake solution for everyone since our ears are different shapes. This ever drop of rain is kinda dumb. Go stand outside in the rain and tell me if you can hear every individual drop or of its more of just noise from everywhere. Things will sound better though. More like real life in that real location and less of repeat sounds.

There are no good 150$ headphones. There are good for 150$ headphones though. You can't just plug a good set of headphones into a controller and expect magic. You will need an amp to properly power them. Headphones and audio is actually something I'm really into so for once I'm not just taking out my ass.

I just hope the new Audeze’s Penrose (and Penrose X) are good enough to enjoy the new audio tech in both consoles, and PC

 

[danielJackson]

It doesn't translate to much. . Hrtf is cool but you can't make a fake solution for everyone since our ears are different shapes. This ever drop of rain is kinda dumb.

There are no good 150$ headphones. There are good for 150$ headphones though. You can't just plug a good set of headphones into a controller and expect magic. You will need an amp to properly power them. Headphones and audio is actually something I'm really into so for once I'm not just taking out my ass.

If you would have watched Cernys months old presentation, you would know that they are planning ways to customize hrtf per user.

Even years old Sony WH1000xm3 headphones have 3D audio with personal customization. As in user takes pics of their ears and app calculates stuff from it.

Also, you are talking from your ass or you are mixing high end music sound quality to what is good enough for gaming

There are good "cheap" headphones, it is not rocket Science. Only hifi fanatics want to think so to justify their over priced stuff.

If you would really know about audio tech, you would know that some headphones have higher, some have lower impedance so not all need to have headphone amplifier to run them properly.

Just by claiming that "there are no good 150$ headphones" you kind of tell that you have no idea, just some hifi-fanatic madman talk. (Games dont even need to have high end super realistic audiophile level quality like music fanatics Claim they need)

Even 20-30€ headphones can give really good 3D audio effects(tested it), they are kind of simple tech and have been manufactured for like 100 years by now, so tech have evolved even on cheap end.

 

[jimbojim]

Tag checks out.

Tag has nothing to do with it.

 

[Dibils2k]

i hope for a digital foundry video on this

 

[OptimistPrime]

It's still different from what sound cards used to do. I'm not sure where are those specialized HRTF applications are used and by whom, it's something as gamers we're not used to. It should be a massive jump in audio quality, and DICE, as a 3rd party, already planning to fully utilize it, and EA are one of the best in the industry when it comes to sounds and audio.

Still, not all players use headsets, so it's not smart to force it and spike the prices up like kinect.

@thurnishaleygw has experience in music and HRTF stuff, he might chim in and enlighten us.

HRTF doesn’t need fancy headphones. Grab the crappiest earbuds in your house and listen to this low bitrate mess with your eyes closed.



That’s a binaural recording which is the physical version of what HRTF mimics.

 

[WatDat]

Tag has nothing to do with it.

LOL. OOOOOOOKAY!

 

[Physiognomonics]

I remember Matt Hargett saying something interesting about RT bounces maybe scaling better with high freqs due to the fact that the CUs can keep the result of the previous hit in their cache and keep working on the same ray with higher speed. Sharing rays among CUs would mean the overhead of copying hit results between caches.

It sounds sensible to me though I dont know much about it. Thoughts?

PS5 should have the advantage if both consoles are using the same number of rays because PS5 will be able to have more bounces during the same time. XSX should be able to display more rays (with less bounces). But there is also the available bandwidth to be taken into the equation.

 

[Aceofspades]

I took this screencap from a post in Beyond3D way back in March where some guy was discussing the bandwith differences between both consoles. He argued es some of the advantages of the Ps5 could be negates by its bandwith

According to him both consoles are bandwidth starved, not even touching into XSX slower 338Gb/s Ram

I say he doesn't know shit

 

[Werewolfgrandma]

The focus on sound sources is missing the point, and the point is RT audio.

Yeah so like I said. No difference on tv speakers and will sound more like real life.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

HRTF doesn’t need fancy headphones. Grab the crappiest earbuds in your house and listen to this low bitrate mess with your eyes closed.



That’s a binaural recording which is the physical version of what HRTF mimics.

Yup, that's the magic of it, any basic stereo headphones/headsets and you're good to go! What a creepy clip! Listened to them and others, I won't play horror games with that stuff.

 

[Thirty7ven]

Yeah so like I said. No difference on tv speakers and will sound more like real life.

TV speakers are what they are, garbage.

 

[jimbojim]

LOL. OOOOOOOKAY!

XSX has worse RT performance than Nvidia RT, it's not a tag problem. But whatever

 

[Bo_Hazem]

$=399
$+=499
$++=599

?

That actually suggests beyond Xbox One X pricing there, seems like $599 is a realistic assumption according to the graph.

 

[OptimistPrime]

Yup, that's the magic of it, any basic stereo headphones/headsets and you're good to go! What a creepy clip! Listened to them and others, I won't play horror games with that stuff.

This is one area where I wish MS would specifically invest like Sony has (since I’ll likely have a Series X a few years before I have a PS5). Nothing’s stopping them from doing this in software but I imagine the hardware and tools Sony is making for HRTF will make it much more commonly found in PS5 titles.

The reason Sony chose this is obviously VR (same reason Oculus and Valve spend time on HRTF), so it’s unlikely MS will follow until they move XBox that way. Maybe some day...

 

[M1chl]

That actually suggests beyond Xbox One X pricing there, seems like $599 is a realistic assumption according to the graph.

That's going to be interesting, seems like both companies know, that it's really expensive to make what they made and so no one announce pricing, because "what if, they push the limits of the price...." : D

 

[reksveks]

So they have an audio chip we didn't know about?

Other than that, sounds like some actual GPU customization, specifically regarding ray tracing?

Someone summarize what was unknown before vs. known plz lol

Lol, we knew about the audio chip for ages

 

[Barakov]

That actually suggests beyond Xbox One X pricing there, seems like $599 is a realistic assumption according to the graph.

It's realistic but it's also a hard sell. If they had actual exclusives they might be able to get away with it. But since they don't it makes me think the XSS is actually going to happen. Makes me think that right now PS5 coming out at $499 could very well happen.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

This is one area where I wish MS would specifically invest like Sony has (since I’ll likely have a Series X a few years before I have a PS5). Nothing’s stopping them from doing this in software but I imagine the hardware and tools Sony is making for HRTF will make it much more commonly found in PS5 titles.

The reason Sony chose this is obviously VR (same reason Oculus and Valve spend time on HRTF), so it’s unlikely MS will follow until they move XBox that way. Maybe some day...

I'm pretty excited to experience that myself, and hope that one of the 5 HRTF presets are close enough to mine. Even that video with unknown HRTF map is insanely good. To me, Pulse 3D is day one! This will push the industry forward, and it might get implemented with mid-gen Xbox refreshes later on.

That's going to be interesting, seems like both companies know, that it's really expensive to make what they made and so no one announce pricing, because "what if, they push the limits of the price...." : D

If the suggested BOM's hold any truth, XSX was $460-520, and PS5 was $450. That might draw some idea of how they would compare in prices for the disc PS5 version. I'm still expecting the PS5DE to be $399.

 

[IntentionalPun]

Lol, we knew about the audio chip for ages

By "we" I meant the voices in my head; and we can assure you, we did not know about the audio chip.

 

[M1chl]

I'm pretty excited to experience that myself, and hope that one of the 5 HRTF presets are close enough to mine. Even that video with unknown HRTF map is insanely good. To me, Pulse 3D is day one! This will push the industry forward, and it might get implemented with mid-gen Xbox refreshes later on.



If the suggested BOM's hold any truth, XSX was $460-520, and PS5 was $450. That might draw some idea of how they would compare in prices for the disc PS5 version. I'm still expecting the PS5DE to be $399.

I think you are way too optimistic : ) But will see : )

 

[Bo_Hazem]

It's realistic but it's also a hard sell. If they had actual exclusives they might be able to get away with it. But since they don't it makes me think the XSS is actually going to happen. Makes me think that right now PS5 coming out at $499 could very well happen.

Sony pushing for 10 million PS5's in the first year of same console but one disc-less is more than likely to help them push even below $499 for like $449 and $399-349 for PS5DE. XSX and XSS have different APU's, and it depends on what MS is expecting to sell/produce that will effect the final price as well for each. More = cheaper, and vice versa.

 

[M1chl]

Sony pushing for 10 million PS5's in the first year of same console but one disc-less is more than likely to help them push even below $499 for like $449 and $399-349 for PS5DE. XSX and XSS have different APU's, and it depends on what MS is expecting to sell/produce that will effect the final price as well for each. More = cheaper, and vice versa.

Well if yields are low for the new lithography solution, it does not matter how many consoles are created. You know this is TSMC problem and it's common with new nodes.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

I think you are way too optimistic : ) But will see : )

To me, I would get the PS5 even at $3000, seriously speaking. So that assumption has nothing to do with me, I'll take whatever price they throw at me.

 

[phil_t98]

It's realistic but it's also a hard sell. If they had actual exclusives they might be able to get away with it. But since they don't it makes me think the XSS is actually going to happen. Makes me think that right now PS5 coming out at $499 could very well happen.

Can’t see how PS5 will end up cheaper with that SSD drive tbh, the console is similar to series x but that SSD gonna be costly

 

[Investor9872]

i hope for a digital foundry video on this

I bet the farm that DF will have a video with their take on this.

 

[TheGreatWhiteShark]

Is it normal to get this breakdown this early or Microsoft super confident with what they have?

I'd say super confident, given that it's RDNA2 disclosure (to some degree) nearly a month before AMD does it.

 

[Entroyp]

That's going to be interesting, seems like both companies know, that it's really expensive to make what they made and so no one announce pricing, because "what if, they push the limits of the price...." : D

No wonder these two are playing chicken with releasing the price. The first one to do so will just look really bad while the other one can shift the blame.

 

[SlimeGooGoo]

.

 

[SatansReverence]

Tag has nothing to do with it.

Your tag for trolling MS/Xbox threads has nothing to do with you trying to claim the Minecraft pathtracing demo video (which everyone and their grandmother knows was encoded at 30fps while running at a much higher frame rate leading to frame time stuttering) was actually just running at the same level as a 2060 because it can only do 30fps total?

Mmmmkay, suuuuure, yeeeees.

 

[Investor9872]

If the launch prices for the PS5 and the XB Series X will be $599, they are dead in the water until 12-18 months later when they have a substantial price drop. Face it. The only people who will go out and buy a $600 console(s) are gaming enthusiasts like all of us here on GAF. Your average moms, dads, Joes, Grannies, Granpas are NOT going to say, "Jimmy wants a PS5/XSX for Christmas, so by gosh I'm going to spend $600 (for the console) + $60 for a game before taxes for him."

 

[jimbojim]

Your tag for trolling MS/Xbox threads has nothing to do with you trying to claim the Minecraft pathtracing demo video (which everyone and their grandmother knows was encoded at 30fps while running at a much higher frame rate leading to frame time stuttering) was actually just running at the same level as a 2060 because it can only do 30fps total?

Mmmmkay, suuuuure, yeeeees.

You need to consider that XSX Minecraft demo is waaay less complex than PC version provided with Nvidias cards. Also, i've said that 2060 has less TF than XSX, around 5 TF less.

 

[phil_t98]

If the launch prices for the PS5 and the XB Series X will be $599, they are dead in the water until 12-18 months later when they have a substantial price drop. Face it. The only people who will go out and buy a $600 console(s) are gaming enthusiasts like all of us here on GAF. You average moms, dads, Joes, Grannies, Granpas are NOT going to say, "Jimmy wants a PS5/XSX for Christmas, so by gosh I'm going to spend $600 (for the console) + $60 for a game before taxes for him."

We also could have a slight supply chain problem because of Covid so this may suit booth parties really. Not sure though

 

[Bo_Hazem]

If the launch prices for the PS5 and the XB Series X will be $599, they are dead in the water until 12-18 months later when they have a substantial price drop. Face it. The only people who will go out and buy a $600 console(s) are gaming enthusiasts like all of us here on GAF. You average moms, dads, Joes, Grannies, Granpas are NOT going to say, "Jimmy wants a PS5/XSX for Christmas, so by gosh I'm going to spend $600 (for the console) + $60 for a game before taxes for him."

Yup, I think an inclusion of a full platformer game (Astro's Playroom) in every PS5 is a great move in Sony's part, and I expect them to show that in ads later on. PS5 advertisement campaign has already started in UEFA Champions League (football), biggest/most watched sport event in the world.

 

[Night.Ninja]

If the launch prices for the PS5 and the XB Series X will be $599, they are dead in the water until 12-18 months later when they have a substantial price drop. Face it. The only people who will go out and buy a $600 console(s) are gaming enthusiasts like all of us here on GAF. You average moms, dads, Joes, Grannies, Granpas are NOT going to say, "Jimmy wants a PS5/XSX for Christmas, so by gosh I'm going to spend $600 (for the console) + $60 for a game before taxes for him."

at 25 to 50 a month people will be buying these consoles

 

[Bo_Hazem]

at 25 to 50 a month people will be buying these consoles

Most electronics shops here already provide 6-24 months plans, some with 0% interest. So I think we might be overestimating how people will receive both consoles at $500-600.

 

[SatansReverence]

You need to consider that XSX Minecraft demo is waaay less complex than PC version provided with Nvidias cards. Also, i've said that 2060 has less TF than XSX, around 5 TF less.

For the amount of screeching you lot do with your cries of "FUD", you sure like to spread it every chance you get.

 

[WatDat]

Wait.....I can’t keep up. Is “Audio Chip” “GPU” now?

 

[saintjules]

Always a good laugh. Yes, randomly picked.