Is 60 FPS killing overall graphical fidelity?

ripeavocado said:
oh yeah the smooth 60fps (probably interlaced) of atari 2600 games!




That's the output frequency you are talking about, this makes PS5 and XSX 120fps consoles.

Go check some retro DF and you will find plenty of games that were sub 60fps
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Yup, these Atari 2600 games move at 60fps.

All you need to know is that 60fps was the standard until 5th gen of consoles. That's a very well known fact and a small precentage of games that didn't follow that standard or had slowdowns but were still designed with 60fps in mind donesn't change that fact.
 
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Games that you have likely played in the past at 30fps: Forza Horizon, RDR, GTA, Driveclub, Infamous, The Last of Us, Uncharted, Gears of War, Horizon Zero Dawn, Halo.

Now 30fps is unplayable though. The only reason we have this push for 60fps is because it's by far the easiest upgrade between generations and specs. It's because it requires investment and great risk to make a single platform engine pushing amazing visuals on a single next gen platform at 30fps 1080p because then you can't make similar versions for xbox one, Switch, and PS4, or maybe even mobile, easily. Generations are dead and people want their cake and to eat it too.
 
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rofif said:
Of course I agree.
I remember experimenting a lot and motion blur plays a big role in this too.
Compared Doom 2016 and it looked identical 60hz + motion blur compared to 240hz no motion blur. veeery close in LOOK. of course feel is a different topic.
I think even at 60hz alone, without any motion blur, there are "brainable" gaps between frames and motion blur helps to "cheat" fill that in. When at 240hz the gaps are so small, that each sharp image at 240hz is so close to another, it looks good.

I love this example:
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How come faster shutter is better? I don't get it. And why do they mention shutter speeds when viewing video?
 
60fps is great and increases my enjoyment of basically any game by a lot.

Regarding the graphics I think that people have their expectations set way too high and that mostly comes from the PS4 ending on an absolute blast with TLOU2 being the graphical behemoth that felt like a next gen jump all on its own.

Going from 1080p30 to 4k60 is not easy and for the true next gen experience we have to wait until Naughty Dog shows a real PS5 exclusive game.

In the end talent and manpower are the things that are often forgotten when talking about graphical fidelity and the aspect of hardware gets too much attention. There are not many developers that can bring actual next gen, but eventually we will get there and the level of graphics where we are at the moment (Demon's Souls, Ratchet and Clank, TLOU2, some RTX games on PC) is pretty damn high already
 
It mostly likely does hurt it. But seriously, the trade off is well worth it.

Make 60fps the new standard, and then graphics will slowly begin to improve again.
 
Of course it is. Something has to give if you want double the framerate. Hopefully this will end once the cross gen shit is over with and we can finally get some next gen goodness.
TaiLopezFan said:
Recently we saw GT7 and let's be real it looks worse than Driveclub. Guess which one is 30 (Driveclub) and which is 60 (GT7). Halo Infinite recieved huge backlash for it's graphics and again it was 60 FPS. Jusy look at RDR2 graphics how jaw dropping the lighting is and compare it to a next gen 60 FPS like Far Cry 6. I mean clearly there is a pattern.
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Of course it is. Something has to give if you want double the framerate. Hopefully this will end once the cross gen shit is over with and we can finally get some next gen goodness.
 
WitchHunter said:
How come faster shutter is better? I don't get it. And why do they mention shutter speeds when viewing video?
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Some cameras have a shutter or rotary disc for motion films. Your phone camera doesn't.
Slow shutter speed means longer exposure which introduces blur on each captured frame in the video but this is not the same as no blur on a lower fps video.
For example you can still capture with high shutter speed then reduce to 30 fps.
 
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DGrayson said:
Lets just make 60 fps the standard and we will all suck it up for a bit and then the graphical improvements will come. Im not trying to go back to 30fps.

Before it was teh same with HD and 4K etc etc. Framerates suffering due to resolution. now maybe a bit it swung the other way but thats fine by me.
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Have to agree it's hard to go back to 30 this Gen. God of War is borderline unplayable at 30 despite it looking better: it's like fighting underwater. I never noticed it on PS3 and earlier but now I really notice the FPS gameplay chug at 30. That says graphics and performance mode need to be standard on all games for that happy balance.
 
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Give me stable 4k 30 fps. Im just as good at playing games at 30 fps. Recently switched AC Valhalla to fidelity and suddenly it doesnt look like a ps3 game on my OLED. Who knew.
 
MrMephistoX said:
Have to agree it's hard to go back to 30 this Gen. God of War is borderline unplayable at 30 despite it looking better: it's like fighting underwater. I never noticed it on PS3 and earlier but now I really notice the FPS gameplay chug at 30.
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Actually the lagging gives you extra time to react in games.
 
Imo 60fps is a must though. It makes games easier to play, easier to see, and just a more fluid experience.
Obviously 60fps does have an effect on graphics, but so does aiming for 4k, dynamic 4k, 1800p, etc.
I think if the new consoles targeted 1440p, you would still get a nice little juimp from last gen.
 
Don't blame it on framerate. Blame it on resolution. The jump from 1440p to 4K is not enormous. Wasting shit tons of resources for 4K or some other arbitrary number with checkerboard 4K is just that, a waste.

You guys ate up the 4K marketing and now you're stuck in it. 60fps has been here since the beginning of gaming and it's not going anywhere as the bare minimum standard for most people.

Next up is 8K, imagine the diminishing returns.
 
Fuck the graphics, seriously. We can have previous gen graphics for all I care as long as games are running MINIMALLY in 60fps.

It makes a world of difference and going back to 30fps seriously makes me nauseous.

Gameplay >>>>>>>> Graphics ANY DAY.

Playing some of these older PS4 games on PS5 feels new and amazing because of the FPs boost.
 
Yes.

There is magic… 60fps needs at least to use twice the power of the hardware so at 30fps theoretically you can at least double the quality of the graphics.

BTW GT game were always 60fps so they never pushed graphics with 30fps.
 
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If big publishers really wanna sell gamers $70 movies, they should stop being cowards and force a locked 24 fps.

Since some people might take that statement seriously, I'm just going to say that it sucks that the industry moved away from making 60fps a priority in the PS3/X360 era.
 
Virt McPolygon said:
If big publishers really wanna sell gamers $70 movies, they should stop being cowards and force a locked 24 fps.

Since some people might take that statement seriously, I'm just going to say that it sucks that the industry moved away from making 60fps a priority in the PS3/X360 era.
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Isn't this the excuse for the new Life is Strange?
 
ethomaz said:
Yes.

There is magic… 60fps needs at least to use twice the power of the hardware so at 30fps theoretically you can at least double the quality of the graphics.

BTW GT game were always 60fps so they never pushed graphics with 30fps.
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No that's not how it works. Just adding Ray tracing can destroyed the frame rate in half
 
Dunky said:
No that's not how it works. Just adding Ray tracing can destroyed the frame rate in half
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I'm not sure what are you talking… RT in 60fps is double expensive than RT in 30fps.

You can push better RT effects in a 30fps game compared with 60fps game.
 
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Of course it is, to some degree, but 60 FPS is worth it. I just hope there's always an option for 60 FPS outside of the most demanding games limited mostly by other factors like RAM or CPU (Flight Sim, for example).
 
I already accept the fact that current gen console only able to run all games at dynamic 4k with 60 fps without RT enabled.
 
Hendrick's said:
30 FPS was a scam. Give it up.
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tumblr_o1j3vkrcBf1sx2peuo4_500.gifv
 
ethomaz said:
I'm not sure what are you talking… RT in 60fps is double expensive than RT in 30fps.

You can push better RT effects in a 30fps game compared with 60fps game.
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The point is just adding some effects onto the game can destroy the framerate. You not going to get double the graphics going from 60 to 30.
 
Dunky said:
The point is just adding some effects onto the game can destroy the framerate. You not going to get double the graphics going from 60 to 30.
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You will actually. Uncharted remastered on PS4 is 60 but Uncharted 4 is 30 and that's why Uncharted 4 looks far better graphically.
 
TaiLopezFan said:
You will actually. Uncharted remastered on PS4 is 60 but Uncharted 4 is 30 and that's why Uncharted 4 looks far better graphically.
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You obviously don't get the point. Uncharted remastered was still the same graphics just increase to 60fps. The game could have looked a lot better and still being 60fps.
 
DGrayson said:
Lets just make 60 fps the standard and we will all suck it up for a bit and then the graphical improvements will come. Im not trying to go back to 30fps.

Before it was teh same with HD and 4K etc etc. Framerates suffering due to resolution. now maybe a bit it swung the other way but thats fine by me.
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This post is correct. Fps is the number one benefit this generation. I won't buy a game that doesn't have a 60 fps option.
 
WitchHunter said:
How come faster shutter is better? I don't get it. And why do they mention shutter speeds when viewing video?
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With very fast shutter speed it's not better. It's worse.
You capture images WAY faster (not more images). So each separate image is sharp. If You pause, every image is sharp. So then when you paly it at 30fps, it's a collection of sharp images... making the video look jerky and unnatural.

When You use low shutter speed, The images you capture, have blurred moving objects. So none of the 30 images in a frame is sharp by itself but these much better and more natural convey the movement without the limited 30fps in the video.

The same principle goes towards video games. Motion blur helps a lot introduce motion into low fps content. Be it 30 or 60fps... since both are not enough frames to convey motion with only sharp images.
 
No. I flat out refuse to play 30fps games anymore. Playing Doom and COD CW at 120fps is just too damn good (and necessary for these games IMO). 60fps minimum or no buy. And if consoles go back to 30fps only- i'm out and getting a PC.
 
30fps on the switch doesn't bother me somehow. However since going PC, I can see the stutter of 60 fps.

I'd rather have more frames, but PC and console are different.
 
WitchHunter said:
That's because something else.
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it is caused by a lot of things actually, low fov, blinking lights, motion blur, camera shake, first person cameras in general, exposure and many more. i'm what you might call and extreme case of sensitivity to these things but frame rates do really effect me and i can't play at sub 60 without getting sick.
 
TaiLopezFan said:
Recently we saw GT7 and let's be real it looks worse than Driveclub. Guess which one is 30 (Driveclub) and which is 60 (GT7). Halo Infinite recieved huge backlash for it's graphics and again it was 60 FPS. Jusy look at RDR2 graphics how jaw dropping the lighting is and compare it to a next gen 60 FPS like Far Cry 6. I mean clearly there is a pattern.
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I am going to offer a counterposition. Chasing 4k is holding back graphics on console. 60fps should be a requirement.
 
60FPS on PS5 means we've basically just got a PS4 Super Pro. Dumping 70-80% of the generational leap into framerate doubling leaves devs with only an extra 20-30% to increase graphical fidelity over PS4. Not enough for anything approaching a generational divide, just the simple reality of the situation. R&Cs 40FPS mode in a 120Hz container is the best compromise for consoles. The responsiveness and fluidity of 40 is a quantum leap over 30, and will afford devs a massive amount of extra power to increase fidelity.
 
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bender said:
RapidYawningChickadee-max-1mb.gif
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This 100% accurate. If you type on the keys alot of random shit will happen. It will confuse the hackers using TigerVNC trying to steal your amazon account.

Anyways Sony isnt doing 60fps options because they want to. It's because game take longer and bigger teams to make. Levels are becoming more complex than whole PS2 games. Theres so much leeway in power they are giving you the 60fps.I fully expect a 30fps dangerously pornographic PS5 game from naughtydog by 2023.
 
We are no longer in the era of of televisions having only two refresh rate options (30/60). Time to put 30hz to bed. Let them target 40-50 if they must (doesn't Ratchet have a 40fps option?).

If anything, I would prefer developers ambitions to be more focused on the CPU side of things. We've got a massive leap on CPU performance compared to previous gen so lets turn that into more interesting gameplay. Shall we?
 
Dunky said:
The point is just adding some effects onto the game can destroy the framerate. You not going to get double the graphics going from 60 to 30.
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You will… how to you spend it is another thing… you get double RT effects for example.
 
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