Heisenberg007
Gold Journalism
So 30 FPS is a creative choice and should not be thrown in a bin, right? If ANY studio offers only a 30 FPS mode or shows its game in 30 FPS mode, that's totally fine, right?
Phil Spencer: Starfield being 30fps is a "creative choice", not a hardware issue.
- Thread starter DryvBy
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Calverz
Member
It depends what the developer has said about it. A locked 30fps hints at a creative choice. 30fps with an unlocked frame rate would be a technical limitation.
For example I tried the last of us part 1 on steam deck the other night. I set the frame rate limit to unlocked and despite this, the game was running more or less at 30fps but sometimes hitting 40-50range. This is due to a technical limitation. If I lock the game to 30fps, then I am taking the decision to do that myself. The game can hit higher.
I didn’t play it at 30fps as 30fps is horrible.
Again stop turning this into console warz. Get some sleep/help.
Heisenberg007
Gold Journalism
That's all I wanted to know. So Gotham Knights, etc. with 30 FPS modes are fine. If any game in the future only comes up with a 30 FPS mode (not unlocked), you seem on board with it.
Cool, good to know
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GymWolf
Gold Member
Space exploration with a fuckton of randomly generated planets was already made in no man sky on ps4 and nothing of what they showed gameplay wise is new compared to past bethesda games or other open world\space sim games, nothing about combat or exploration or the rpg part is new.
Zero g combat is not new, spaceship fighting is not new, what exactly does starfield that is completely new and nextgen? I just discovered that even the light system is not raytraced but just generic global illumination that other games use, not even in the same universe as cyberpunk light model.
Hoarding sandwiches in your cargo IS NOT A NEXTGEN FEATURE nor a gameplay feature, npcs with schedule and persistence is not new, pirahna bite games do that and you could do the same on ps3 bethesda games.
I'm sure you are gonna come up with at least 5 incredible gameplay features that only starfield possess and i didn't noticed in the deep dive that i rewatched 3 times...i'm waiting.
Like, i'm super excited for the game because i love big ass open world games and rpgs, but i'm not buying the game because it does anything new gameplay wise.
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Xcell Miguel
Gold Member
I don't get the "30 FPS is a creative choice" debate, it's not what Todd said from what I remember, he said that they wanted the game to look a certain way and not lower details to get 60 FPS.
The creative choice is the amount of details and the draw distance they want in the game.
So on consoles they will have to lock it to 30 to satisfy this render target and avoid fluctuating FPS because not everybody has a VRR TV or monitor.
On PC they can't lock settings as they have to adapt to many configurations (and let people play the game the way they want to).
At 4:27 :
YouTube transcription :
The creative choice is the amount of details and the draw distance they want in the game.
So on consoles they will have to lock it to 30 to satisfy this render target and avoid fluctuating FPS because not everybody has a VRR TV or monitor.
On PC they can't lock settings as they have to adapt to many configurations (and let people play the game the way they want to).
At 4:27 :
YouTube transcription :
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LiquidMetal14
hide your water-based mammals
I see the conversation is currently on if the game feels next gen.
It doesn't.
It could be done before but it's also their best looking game as it should be dragging along that old Gamebryo temper tantrum kid.
The 30fps thing, and Phillip needing to PR it up just to justify it, is more aggregious when you just say it in your head.
It's a design choice to also scale back a little and get 60fps. The game may not impress as much visually and there are underlying systems at play but let's not act as if it wasn't the same when Oblivion came out.
Stat tracking, persistence data, all the physics and graphical suites, they were all there now with new stuff being implemented for this game.
It's that they can't be arsed to make it happen that brings the expectations higher for them to optimize and deliver a rock solid smooth experience.
I won't budge on that opinion either. If they don't have to do the "extra work", for another performance mode then they better lock what they have down and be smooooooooooth like buttox.
Regarding PC, this doesn't bode well for how they're prioritizing this as this does not look as advanced as Cyberpunk so that means I expect it to run better then that game at it's max.
I can already see the normal Bethesda issues though with tiles or whatever else system they have to stream in content. I hope they've at least stepped up their game on that front.
And that's all before judging the game which isn't a winner right now. I'm more optimistic but this isn't some game of the year contender based on well wishes.
It doesn't.
It could be done before but it's also their best looking game as it should be dragging along that old Gamebryo temper tantrum kid.
The 30fps thing, and Phillip needing to PR it up just to justify it, is more aggregious when you just say it in your head.
It's a design choice to also scale back a little and get 60fps. The game may not impress as much visually and there are underlying systems at play but let's not act as if it wasn't the same when Oblivion came out.
Stat tracking, persistence data, all the physics and graphical suites, they were all there now with new stuff being implemented for this game.
It's that they can't be arsed to make it happen that brings the expectations higher for them to optimize and deliver a rock solid smooth experience.
I won't budge on that opinion either. If they don't have to do the "extra work", for another performance mode then they better lock what they have down and be smooooooooooth like buttox.
Regarding PC, this doesn't bode well for how they're prioritizing this as this does not look as advanced as Cyberpunk so that means I expect it to run better then that game at it's max.
I can already see the normal Bethesda issues though with tiles or whatever else system they have to stream in content. I hope they've at least stepped up their game on that front.
And that's all before judging the game which isn't a winner right now. I'm more optimistic but this isn't some game of the year contender based on well wishes.
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GymWolf
Gold Member
45 is acceptable if your car has VRR.
MMaRsu
Gold Member
Show me another fully singleplayer RPG, with a fully developed story, quests, activities, factions that persists in a playable universe wherein items stay in their positions etc.
The planets aren't randomly generated either, so I think you misunderstand how this game is being built.
It's nothing like No Mans Sky which has barely any authored content.
"npcs with schedule and persistence is not new, pirahna bite games do that and you could do the same on ps3 bethesda games."
Not on this scale.
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GymWolf
Gold Member
Every fucking rpg has a fully developed story with, sidequests, factions etc. dude, the main plot is probably gonna sprawl between 10 to 15 planets at the very best, it's not like all 1000 planets are related to the story, cmon, we can safely say that at least 70-80% of tjose planets are gonna be throw away stuff for resources or scripted random encounters that are funny the first time and get tedious by the 10th time.
It is not much different from going from a city to another city in other open worlds, except in here you move with a spaceships and menus, space makeup doesn't make moving from on place to another nextgen, especially when it's not even fully free or real time and you will use menus to navigate the galaxy.
And yes, the planets are randomly generated, most of them, you can find resources or random events etc.
They are not all handcrafted, the elements that compose them are (dah) but not how they are pieced together by their system, they have general parameters for plants or creatures you can find based on the distance from the sun (if true) but thats it.
They showed their 4 main big cities, the game is not gonna have 50 of them just because you have 1000 planets.
Still waiting for these incredible new and nextgen gameplay features in combat, story telling, exploration and rpg part that were not there in past bethesda games or other open world games\rpgs.
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MMaRsu
Gold Member
Who says you have to have nextgen gameplay features? The entire thing is a nextgen only possible game. Certainly such a feat would not have been possible on PS4.
NMS uses fully procedurally generated worlds, almost nothing on those planets is handcrafted or placed by the developers. The game does not really have a story, interesting NPC's or quests.
NMS uses fully procedurally generated worlds, almost nothing on those planets is handcrafted or placed by the developers. The game does not really have a story, interesting NPC's or quests.
GymWolf
Gold Member
Did you even noticed who i was quoting before responding to my post?
The dude was talking about horizon having ps3-ps4 mechanics so i asked what starfield does gameaplay wise that is completely new or nextgen, the answer is a resounding zero unless the space makeup for stuff we already did in the past 20 years has to be considered fresh or nextgen just because.
Sure as hell i'm not buying a bethesda game because i expect nextgen gameplay or combat or writing or story telling from them, even the most rabid bethesda fans know this is not the reason why they are succesful.
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PeteBull
Member
Game launches early september, guys, not even 4 months from now.
And it will launch on pc too, we will know how much is needed both gpu and cpu wise to run it even on lowest settings in 720p resolution at 30 and 60fps stable, from that we can roughly extrapolate if 60fps mode was feasible after some cuts/res/settings downgrade at least on xsx, or specs needed, especially cpu wise are far beyond what xsx is capable of.
And it will launch on pc too, we will know how much is needed both gpu and cpu wise to run it even on lowest settings in 720p resolution at 30 and 60fps stable, from that we can roughly extrapolate if 60fps mode was feasible after some cuts/res/settings downgrade at least on xsx, or specs needed, especially cpu wise are far beyond what xsx is capable of.
He's full of shit because the games he complained about, the games where 30fps should be thrown in the bin, or was 'distinctly last gen', had locked 30fps modes. He certainly wasn't on board with those.That's all I wanted to know. So Gotham Knights, etc. with 30 FPS modes are fine. If any game in the feature only comes up with a 30 FPS mode (not unlocked), you seem on board with it.
Cool, good to know
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Calverz
Member
That's all I wanted to know. So Gotham Knights, etc. with 30 FPS modes are fine. If any game in the feature only comes up with a 30 FPS mode (not unlocked), you seem on board with it.
Cool, good to know
demigod
Member
Take the L son. Better yet, go hide your post history again.
MMaRsu
Gold Member
The size of this Bethesda game compared to any other games that do a RPG is nextgen.
MidGenRefresh
*Refreshes biennially
Calverz
Member
Take the L? Such a dumb phrase.
You must be 12.
I reiterate. It was a creative decision to run the game locked at 30fps. Not a technical limitation. I’m sorry you struggle to understand that. Go take your console warz avatar elsewhere.
GymWolf
Gold Member
Size is not strictly related to innovative gameplay mechanics but ok.
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MidGenRefresh
*Refreshes biennially
I'd suggest to move the party to this thread. You're all invited and your expert opinion is highly appreciated:
www.neogaf.com
News - Analysis - [IGNxGamer] Starfield: Why 30fps Might Make Sense on Console
With Starfield being the center of the Xbox 2023 Showcase last week, Bethesda gave us a deep dive into one of the biggest games this generation. The biggest question after the show(s) was: why is it 30fps on Xbox Series X and Series S and not 60fps? In this IGN Performance preview, we dive into...
MMaRsu
Gold Member
Size is something that is next gen inherent, with these systems present.
GymWolf
Gold Member
But then again, size was never my point because size is not an innovative gameplay mechanic and my post was all about that.
I get from where you are coming from but the game being absolutely gigantic was never in question.
You may want to read again the post i was quoting and the first post you quoted from me.
avin
Member
Sure. But I've seen 60 fps games before. There's been a lot of 60 fps and higher games this gen that I haven't seriously bothered with, because I found them boring. They're slightly altered variants of things I've seen before.
I'm hoping for something I haven't seen before. Greatness, even. I can't know if this is great, but I can tell the ambition is there. If the bones of a truly great game are there, then to me 60 fps on console is a minor detail I'm willing to wait on, because it'll be worth it.
Having said that, I'm puzzled why this isn't all blindingly obvious. And equally obvious, this game doesn't have to be for everyone. For myself, I'll try it before deciding what I think.
avin
genesisblock
Member
I can build a base with items in NMS and come back after going from different galaxies sand still find them there. Does that count? I have not tested this theory on hundreds of planets though.
MMaRsu
Gold Member
A base is one thing, but the entirety of the game surrounding it is vastly different.
Depends on what you mean by size and the engine in question. If you're talking planet size in an open world engine then it is not 'inherently next gen' because size only depends on storage space. 'Density' becomes more 'inherently next gen' with RAM and streaming speed requirements.
Such as?
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MMaRsu
Gold Member
NPC's with their own schedules, tasks, quests, voicelines, objects that are obtainable and droppable with the engine 'remembering' where you dropped it. Many many many more systems than NMS has.
If you don't know this, have you not played a Bethesda game before?
Like I said, they are nothing like NMS.
I've played most Bethesda games including those several gens ago on a PS3 and 360. Those had NPCs walking to a schedule, quests, tasks with obtainable and droppable objects. I'm asking what systems makes this inherently next gen and one specifically which requires a 33ms frametime?
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MMaRsu
Gold Member
The rest of the scope of the game?
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Calverz
Member
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Come on man.Not you now. Thought you had more sense…..
Obviously it's all "creative choice" tied to hardware factors whether PR decides to get out in front of it due to the 60Hz/120Hz marketing and conditioning they did to their fanbase for over 3 years.
A dev does not need to openly say it for support or criticisms to not permeate.
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01011001
Banned
hence me saying I AM STILL SHITTING ON BETHESDA FOR THEIR DOGSHIT ENGINE AND THEIR 30FPS CAP.
but I am also saying that Horizon is a WAAAAAYY simpler game than either Starfield or No Man's Sky.
and while having tons of objects that have physics properties and persistence isn't new, it is a multitute of times more complex of a system, coupled with everything else the game does, than anything that Horizon does.
all I said is that Horizon is a very bad example to bring up, as it is extremely static, simple, and literally builds directly on simple Ubisoft games of the 360 era like Assassin's Creed 4.
fucking Zelda on Switch is more complex and has more demanding gameplay systems than Horizon...
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GymWolf
Gold Member
Pretty sure the dinobots in horizon are order of magnitude better than any enemy inside starfield in terms of complexity, number of moves etc. but ok.
You still haven't told me a single example of this nextgen gameplay that doesn't have ps3 roots like horizon.
Not that i was expecting any since the pure moment to moment gameplay play exactly like a bethesda ps3 game, you are still gonna mow down dumb mofos with average fps mechanics, you know it, i know it, but we can pretend otherwise if you want.
The fact that you can pick a wrench from a table is cute and all, you are still not gonna use tha wrench or any trash object you pick to actually do something gameplay wise, you are not gonna use it as an improvised melee weapon nor to do what a wrench does, this is the difference with zelda, that one use objects for their properties, bethesda game let you pick and move objects, and that's it, you are not gonna leave a banana on the floor to make an enemy fall down, hell even hitman does much better with picking random object and actually use them for gameplay reasons.
But maybe you can tell me how just picking and dropping objects is somehow special in terms of GAMEPLAY when ps3 games already let you do that
(Pretty sure morrowind on og xbox did this aswell but i could be wrong)
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wow they are going early and strong with damage control for this one.
hopefully they at least “creatively decided” to do a stable 30fps
that alone would be a first for bethesda
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01011001
Banned
we are talking about things that are actually taxing.
having lots of physics objects in one place is taxing. we don't know the full scope of how crazy it gets, but if you can have hundreds of things just lying around in your ship at all times, then that will hammer the CPU.
meanwhile Horizon has less complex physics and a more empty world than GTA4
which is why it's a terrible example.the number of objects supported at any given time and the tick rate of the physics is unknown.
maybe they really want to make sure that you can just fill your whole ship with stolen plates or some shit... I mean, that's maybe a bit pointless but would explain why that old ass engine is a bit stressed doing that.
GymWolf
Gold Member
I'm pretty sure that horizon has more destruction tham your average bethesda game or even starfield.we are talking about things that are actually taxing.
having lots of physics objects in one place is taxing. we don't know the full scope of how crazy it gets, but if you can have hundreds of things just lying around in your ship at all times, then that will hammer the CPU.
meanwhile Horizon has less complex physics and a more empty world than GTA4
the number of objects supported at any given time and the tick rate of the physics is unknown.
maybe they really want to make sure that you can just fill your whole ship with stolen plates or some shit... I mean, that's maybe a bit pointless but would explain why that old ass engine is a bit stressed doing that.
Like i'm sure that you are not gonna destroy trees or rocks or rock structures or wood structures or plants in starfield, just saying.
Small things of course, but people like to ignore that horizon is actually one of the open world with most destruction going on.
Btw i edited my previous post to touch on the object thing.
At the end of the day, we can agree that starfield has no nextgen feature strictly related to gameplay, just related to scope and that the gameplay mechanics are as ps3 related as horizon.
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Torrent of Pork
Banned
So it looks like FF16 is being torn a new asshole over its mess of a performance mode, I wonder why?
Heisenberg007
Gold Journalism
I'm playing it in performance mode. Very minor hitches. Looks and plays great.
Mister Wolf
Member
It means games that utilize tech that heavily push the CPU and GPU of the consoles. FF16 is using "next gen" shadow tech and it's hammering the PS5. Cyberpunk in Standard RT Mode and even more so in Overdrive RT mode on PC is a "next gen" game.
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mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
No it's not. Stop lying.
TheGrat1
Member
And virtually all of the features I have seen in SF so far have been done before. The basic structure/gameplay loop is indistinguishable from a typical Bethesda RPG. The primary difference is the space setting and that has been done by other games. Space combat, vehicle construction, procedural generation. None of it is new. Nothing wrong with that, refined concepts are usually implemented the best. Imagine a Fallout game with space travel and no V.A.T.S. That is basically what SF is to me. I, too, hope there is something that wows us. That telekinesis-like power showed near the end of the game indicates they have not shown everything yet.
No doubt on the bolded.
avin
Member
^ Sure. We haven't seen enough to really know whether this will be as good as some of us hope. Others are excited, you're not. But for some reason, some people feel the need to tell the rest of us exactly how you feel. For some people here, over, and over, and over again.
I get excitement. I appreciate it, even. I don't get some other games people here get excited about, and I can be puzzled, bemused, but I sure as hell don't do this thing you and others are doing. Because this is the opposite. Some people just feel the need to shit on things. Worse, they manage to justify their small-mindedness as some noble virtue, as "refusing to settle", "demanding more", "holding lazy devs accountable", or whatever dumb thing they've managed to convince themselves of.
You do you. For myself, I'll come back to this when the game is out and I know what I think about it.
avin
I get excitement. I appreciate it, even. I don't get some other games people here get excited about, and I can be puzzled, bemused, but I sure as hell don't do this thing you and others are doing. Because this is the opposite. Some people just feel the need to shit on things. Worse, they manage to justify their small-mindedness as some noble virtue, as "refusing to settle", "demanding more", "holding lazy devs accountable", or whatever dumb thing they've managed to convince themselves of.
You do you. For myself, I'll come back to this when the game is out and I know what I think about it.
avin
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ZoukGalaxy
Member
It's true: it's a "creative engine" choice
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adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Heisenberg007
Gold Journalism
IDK what you tell you man. I am 8+ hours in, has done Eikon vs. Eikon battles, and honestly the overwhelming majority of the game performance is pretty good. As far I noticed/felt, there are more drops while exploring in a hub near a fire than there are in big Eikon battles.
But overall, as I said earlier, I didn't feel the least bit annoyed. Is it perfect? No. Is it game-breaking annoying? Absolutely not. It feels and plays great for like 98% of the time.