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[poppabk]

near infinite anecdotal examples of the opposite - companies firing Americans and hiring H1Bs to do the same work, for less

A large number of anecdotal examples = statistics, so show me the statistics.

 

[StereoVsn]

So why aren't they applying for these jobs that are federally mandated to be advertised before an H1B application can even be made?

Are you being serious here? So you think people are not applying ?

Corpos are basically ignoring these "mandatory" positions in a way that's legal or at least legal enough not to be caught.

 

[diffusionx]

A large number of anecdotal examples = statistics, so show me the statistics.

There are plenty of studies out there that show how H1Bs depress wages and raise unemployment when they get brought into an industry. Feel free to go look for them, but anyone with some logical thinking could deduce this.

 

[DoubleClutch]

I agree and believe it will come to a head soon enough and things may turn quite nasty. Sadly, ''the lady's not for turning'' and leaders are hell bent on pushing through with this throughout the Western world.

Indeed. Both the common men on the left and right are in the same predicament. Just the left is brainwashed with Marxism.

Look at Trump now pushing for increased immigration and MAGA finding it has common ground with Bernie Sanders who is against all H1B.

Both sides are slowly realizing they've been fucked over and lied to by the "elites" in society. Time will tell where it all ends up.

 

[ResilientBanana]

AI will replace some jobs, maybe testers. But there's no way in hell can it take on bigger tasks like writing code. If anyone has actually used AI for these tasks will see it's great for ground work and concepts but you can't write a whole program.

 

[StereoVsn]

AI will replace some jobs, maybe testers. But there's no way in hell can it take on bigger tasks like writing code. If anyone has actually used AI for these tasks will see it's great for ground work and concepts but you can't write a whole program.

It's enough to eliminate jobs. It doesn't need to replace everyone , it can "merely" replace 30-50% of devs, mostly in junior to mid tier. And potentially depress job pay for the rest.

 

[winjer]

It's impressive how come companies are willing to spend billions, just to be able to fire more people.

 

[DoubleClutch]

AI will replace some jobs, maybe testers. But there's no way in hell can it take on bigger tasks like writing code. If anyone has actually used AI for these tasks will see it's great for ground work and concepts but you can't write a whole program.

Disagree.

Go to Copilot right now and ask it to write you a program in C# that tests the polling rate of a controller plugged into your computer. It will give you a working copy within 5 seconds. From there you can work with it to build onto it, tweak it yourself, etc.

Extrapolate that to the professional economy now. Suddenly you find yourself needing a whole lot less people thanks to a $20/month subscription.

 

[poppabk]

Are you being serious here? So you think people are not applying ?

Corpos are basically ignoring these "mandatory" positions in a way that's legal or at least legal enough not to be caught.

For what purpose? Why spend thousands bringing in someone on an H1B who is then free to look for other jobs in the US?

 

[DAHGAMING]

I fucking wish AI would hurry up and learn to drive trucks so I can loose my job and get on the benefits game.

 

[cyberheater]

People laughing at this have no idea what's coming down the pipe for humanity. Our species has a proven track record of handling big changes just about as bad as it's possible. We have a few short years before A.I really sinks its teeth into the workforce with the devastation that will cause. Enjoy the time you have.

 

[ResurrectedContrarian]

I find the H1B discussion confusing, given that they've always been the lowest skill tech workers and that's their whole selling point -- taking away mindless grunt code work for cheap. AI is already better than all of them, they're no longer relevant.

 

[StereoVsn]

For what purpose? Why spend thousands bringing in someone on an H1B who is then free to look for other jobs in the US?

… so they can pay a lot less, make them work more hours and be able to threaten to kick them out of the country if they don't comply.

 

[StereoVsn]

I find the H1B discussion confusing, given that they've always been the lowest skill tech workers and that's their whole selling point -- taking away mindless grunt code work for cheap. AI is already better than all of them, they're no longer relevant.

Except that's not what has been happening. H1Bs have been used in a lot of higher paying positions. And of course they don't have to pay the normal rates.

 

[MatrixReloaded101]

If they keep taking away jobs I don't know who they think will be left to buy their overpriced products and this goes for all these tech companies not just Microsoft.

 

[poppabk]

… so they can pay a lot less, make them work more hours and be able to threaten to kick them out of the country if they don't comply.

They have to meet local market rates, and if they fire them the employee has 60 days to find another job or file other extensions, so it's not great a plan.
I mean do you think that the mayo clinic brought in Gelareh Zadeh with a $1.3 million a year salary to be the head of neurosurgery because she works cheap and they can threaten to kick her out of the country?

 

[StereoVsn]

They have to meet local market rates, and if they fire them the employee has 60 days to find another job or file other extensions, so it's not great a plan.
I mean do you think that the mayo clinic brought in Gelareh Zadeh with a $1.3 million a year salary to be the head of neurosurgery because she works cheap and they can threaten to kick her out of the country?

There are always outliers, but in vast majority of cases it's corpos being a)Cheap and b)Want to have more leverage over employees.

 

[Hudo]

Isn't that the motherfucking goal? To have all the shitty tasks (which includes programming etc.) be done by machines so that we humans can do whatever the fuck we want without the "need" to work?

 

[ResurrectedContrarian]

Except that's not what has been happening. H1Bs have been used in a lot of higher paying positions. And of course they don't have to pay the normal rates.

Must be, but I don't know where... I've worked on a lot of cutting edge teams and I've never seen an Indian import who was above the lowest levels as an overall engineer, they seem like rare unicorns.

 

[ResilientBanana]

Disagree.

Go to Copilot right now and ask it to write you a program in C# that tests the polling rate of a controller plugged into your computer. It will give you a working copy within 5 seconds. From there you can work with it to build onto it, tweak it yourself, etc.

Extrapolate that to the professional economy now. Suddenly you find yourself needing a whole lot less people thanks to a $20/month subscription.

That's exactly what I fucking said. It can't build a program, instead it gives you concepts and ideas.

 

[StereoVsn]

Isn't that the motherfucking goal? To have all the shitty tasks (which includes programming etc.) be done by machines so that we humans can do whatever the fuck we want without the "need" to work?

Yes, in our current society people totally will be doing what they want vs not affording healthcare and barely surviving.

 

[Nostalgic Nightmare]

All the AI hype is in full swing, but anyone who's dealt with companies that host the infra etc even with cloud understand that it's designed to pull you in and charge you at the operation/compute levels if required.
Plenty of talk to raise this money etc, but no talk about how to create a safety net for those who it will displace - of course the politicians won't give a damn until they have also reaped the rewards before pretending to give a shit about those affected.
The best part is all of this modeling is being facilitated by those using their infra and tech, or social media like sheep - but none of that profit will be seen by them.

I went in for a fairly normal cardio test recently and the woman there was using a custom interface etc to snap pics etc and she confided that she's been training AI on doing the exact same thing - so this shit is coming sooner than later, any repeatable task that can be automated away will be.
In the end it will be a large class of people beholden to the government and a particular party to get their benefits, and the government will keep taxing what's left of the working class - even into their own retirement savings to sustain it. History shows with most world powers over the ages, that the rich/ruling classes are the first to leave once the class disparity goes too far.

 

[Hudo]

Yes, in our current society people totally will be doing what they want vs not affording healthcare and barely surviving.

Of course, the current systems will need to evolve/need to be replaced. Happened multiple times in history and will happen multiple times in the future as well.

 

[DoubleClutch]

That's exactly what I fucking said. It can't build a program, instead it gives you concepts and ideas.

No, it can write a program in full.

 

[poppabk]

There are always outliers, but in vast majority of cases it's corpos being a)Cheap and b)Want to have more leverage over employees.

The lowest salary for the top 200 doctors brought in on H1B's in 2024 was $650k.
The question is - why did they employ these people? Is it because, just maybe, they were the best and most qualified person and there isn't an endless supply of Americans to fill specialist roles?

There are several people in this thread that think that these cardiovascular surgeons, neuroscientists, pediatricians should not have been allowed these jobs and we could have just trained up some unemployed American to fill these roles.
But of course - not trained by the hundreds of professors that came in on H1B's with the top 200 earning a minimum of $348k because we could have trained unemployed americans to be the professors who trained the doctors.
And then I guess illegals or AI train the professor trainers?

 

[StereoVsn]

The lowest salary for the top 200 doctors brought in on H1B's in 2024 was $650k.
The question is - why did they employ these people? Is it because, just maybe, they were the best and most qualified person and there isn't an endless supply of Americans to fill specialist roles?

There are several people in this thread that think that these cardiovascular surgeons, neuroscientists, pediatricians should not have been allowed these jobs and we could have just trained up some unemployed American to fill these roles.
But of course - not trained by the hundreds of professors that came in on H1B's with the top 200 earning a minimum of $348k because we could have trained unemployed americans to be the professors who trained the doctors.
And then I guess illegals or AI train the professor trainers?

You are again quoting outliers. There were 80K H1B recipients and the industry wants to break that wide open.

Vast majority aren't going to be folks you are quoting. Sure, there are going to be people who are here for actually good reasons but most have been hired by corpos to not hire US resident workers.

 

[mhirano]

So AI will lead to job losses (no shit) but the tech bros want limits on H1B significantly increased. Hmm…

And to all "workers will adjust" folks, unlike previous rounds, I suspect this will result in permanent loss of employment as AI inherently reduces need for workers.

We are heading full tilt toward pretty damn big issues in society and nobody seems to either care or do anything about it.

Why do you think war is brewing all over the world?
They want an excuse to get rid of millions of the 'unwanted people' (us regular folks who will be jobless and useless in the next productivity schemes)

 

[jm89]

I find the H1B discussion confusing, given that they've always been the lowest skill tech workers and that's their whole selling point -- taking away mindless grunt code work for cheap. AI is already better than all of them, they're no longer relevant.

It's no longer low skill tech jobs going over seas, some much more high skilled jobs are being sent overseas or they give visas to get the job done for cheap. Basically fucking over graduates and even experienced workers, the talent is there but the bums don't want to pay for it.

 

[poppabk]

You are again quoting outliers. There were 80K H1B recipients and the industry wants to break that wide open.

Vast majority aren't going to be folks you are quoting. Sure, there are going to be people who are here for actually good reasons but most have been hired by corpos to not hire US resident workers.

Just those 400 H1B visas represent a bigger percentage of the H1B visas issued per year (approx 150k) than the number of H1B visas issued per year are of the professional US workforce (approx 90 million).
So if they are outliers then the H1B program is an outlier.

 

[Danteyke223]

That's the "AI".

The self checkout in the USA0s Amazon shop was literally an Indian Call Center reviewing footage.

 

[DoubleClutch]

The lowest salary for the top 200 doctors brought in on H1B's in 2024 was $650k.
The question is - why did they employ these people? Is it because, just maybe, they were the best and most qualified person and there isn't an endless supply of Americans to fill specialist roles?

There are several people in this thread that think that these cardiovascular surgeons, neuroscientists, pediatricians should not have been allowed these jobs and we could have just trained up some unemployed American to fill these roles.
But of course - not trained by the hundreds of professors that came in on H1B's with the top 200 earning a minimum of $348k because we could have trained unemployed americans to be the professors who trained the doctors.
And then I guess illegals or AI train the professor trainers?

This country has over 330 Million people. If we can't develop enough such individuals ourselves then we've failed as a nation.

This nation produced Ben Carson which is one of the best brain surgeons in history.

Make the climate so more like him can emerge. Instead we push a culture of single mothers, ghetto culture, and victimhood.

 

[diffusionx]

The lowest salary for the top 200 doctors brought in on H1B's in 2024 was $650k.
The question is - why did they employ these people? Is it because, just maybe, they were the best and most qualified person and there isn't an endless supply of Americans to fill specialist roles?

There are several people in this thread that think that these cardiovascular surgeons, neuroscientists, pediatricians should not have been allowed these jobs and we could have just trained up some unemployed American to fill these roles.
But of course - not trained by the hundreds of professors that came in on H1B's with the top 200 earning a minimum of $348k because we could have trained unemployed americans to be the professors who trained the doctors.
And then I guess illegals or AI train the professor trainers?

I am pretty sure that Americans can be cardiovascular surgeons, neuroscientists, and pediatricians. We've done it in the past. I've heard we even have these schools that are designed to train people to do these jobs.

The fact that you are selectively quoting these extreme outliers - mean H1B visa is something like $133K - tells me that you have an agenda here or your employment is tied to these visas.

 

[mitch1971]

 

[DoubleClutch]

I am pretty sure that Americans can be cardiovascular surgeons, neuroscientists, and pediatricians. We've done it in the past. I've heard we even have these schools that are designed to train people to do these jobs.

The fact that you are selectively quoting these extreme outliers - mean H1B visa is something like $133K - tells me that you have an agenda here or your employment is tied to these visas.

His/her profile motto is "cheeks spread for digital only future".

Shame on me for not realizing what this person was before.

 

[Knightime_X]

ai suckssssssss

ai still in the fetus stage
Most people only see what it currently is and not where it's headed, let alone it's potential.
You probably use lots of devices that make use of ai and don't even realize it.

 

[poppabk]

I am pretty sure that Americans can be cardiovascular surgeons, neuroscientists, and pediatricians. We've done it in the past. I've heard we even have these schools that are designed to train people to do these jobs.

The fact that you are selectively quoting these extreme outliers - mean H1B visa is something like $133K - tells me that you have an agenda here or your employment is tied to these visas.

Can you produce enough though? The schools also rely on H1B visas to bring in enough qualified people to train them. I am a highly skilled scientist but no matter what training I will never or would never have been a cardiovascular surgeon.

Are you ready to step up and train to be a cardiovascular surgeon?

As stated above these extreme outliers represent a bigger percentage of yearly H1B visas than yearly H1B visas represent of the US professional workforce.

My agenda is that I came to the US on an H1B. Then I gave up my H1B to get an F1 visa to get my PhD (had to literally leave the country for a week and go to the embassybas there is no path) then transitioned to a green card through marriage (including an extra $1500 to get an advance parole to attend my brother's wedding). After hearing all the 'do it the right way' talk about preventing illegal immigration, it's pretty galling to hear that doing it the right way means that people still hate you and think of you as some filthy foreigner.

 

[coachmcguirk91]

It's not like Microsoft not investing in AI would slow down the train. AI is happening one way or another, better Microsoft than some Chinese company

 

[diffusionx]

Can you produce enough though? The schools also rely on H1B visas to bring in enough qualified people to train them. I am a highly skilled scientist but no matter what training I will never or would never have been a cardiovascular surgeon.

As stated above these extreme outliers represent a bigger percentage of yearly H1B visas than yearly H1B visas represent of the US professional workforce.

My agenda is that I came to the US on an H1B. Then I gave up my H1B to get an F1 visa to get my PhD then transitioned to a green card through marriage (including an extra $1500 to get an advance parole to attend my brother's wedding). After hearing all the 'do it the right way' talk about preventing illegal immigration, it's pretty galling to hear that doing it the right way means that people still hate you and think of you as some filthy foreigner.

I don't even know what "enough" means and nobody ever tells me. If you ask the proponents of endless H1Bs, there is never enough. That is because this mass H1B immigration is an ideological position, not a technocratic one.

I also want to note that H1Bs are not in the Constitution. George Washington didn't sign a bill making H1Bs. They started in 1990. We built a world class, lone superpower, massive economy, high end, best of everything in the world, without it. The USA basically created the computing industry nearly single-handedly without a single H1B, because they didn't exist. And the people who want tons more H1B immigration are also saying we will have technology that wil take away everyones' job. Somehow, they are never asked to reconcile these two positions, but I'm the bad guy for calling it out.

I told you my position on H1Bs - my preferred cap is zero. If you want to blame anyone for hardline stance on this, blame the people who abused the system for profit and want to expand it for profit.

 

[rm082e]

I think people are waaaaayyy to optimistic about how quickly this technology will evolve, and how it will impact the work force. I think at best, what they're currently calling AI will be a toolset that can help existing workers get more done and reduce (not eliminate) some of the drudgework.

Which also means I think we're in a serious AI bubble. I am expecting that bubble to pop somewhere between 3 and 24 moths from now. At some point it's going to become obvious all this investment isn't paying off and these companies are burning more cash than they're making.

 

[DoubleClutch]

Can you produce enough though? The schools also rely on H1B visas to bring in enough qualified people to train them. I am a highly skilled scientist but no matter what training I will never or would never have been a cardiovascular surgeon.

As stated above these extreme outliers represent a bigger percentage of yearly H1B visas than yearly H1B visas represent of the US professional workforce.

My agenda is that I came to the US on an H1B. Then I gave up my H1B to get an F1 visa to get my PhD (had to literally leave the country for a week and go to the embassybas there is no path) then transitioned to a green card through marriage (including an extra $1500 to get an advance parole to attend my brother's wedding). After hearing all the 'do it the right way' talk about preventing illegal immigration, it's pretty galling to hear that doing it the right way means that people still hate you and think of you as some filthy foreigner.

Your attitude is why nobody likes H1B other than people who like wage slaves. Full of entitlement.

Stay in your own country and make it better if you're such an expert. But it's probably some dump and that's why you left it. Then you bring those same ideologies that made it a dump here.

You should only come to America if you believe in American values and only about American citizens. If you cared about Americans you wouldn't want H1B. But you do because your loyalties lie elsewhere.

Go to China or Japan and preach your bullshit. See how fast you get deported.

 

[StereoVsn]

Can you produce enough though? The schools also rely on H1B visas to bring in enough qualified people to train them. I am a highly skilled scientist but no matter what training I will never or would never have been a cardiovascular surgeon.

Are you ready to step up and train to be a cardiovascular surgeon?

As stated above these extreme outliers represent a bigger percentage of yearly H1B visas than yearly H1B visas represent of the US professional workforce.

My agenda is that I came to the US on an H1B. Then I gave up my H1B to get an F1 visa to get my PhD (had to literally leave the country for a week and go to the embassybas there is no path) then transitioned to a green card through marriage (including an extra $1500 to get an advance parole to attend my brother's wedding). After hearing all the 'do it the right way' talk about preventing illegal immigration, it's pretty galling to hear that doing it the right way means that people still hate you and think of you as some filthy foreigner.

I don't think most people would think "filthy foreigner" or blame folks for coming to US in H1B. At least I hope people don't.

What most reasonable people are upset at is our government and big corpos and not normal folks studying in US and taking opportunity to come to this country.

Number of H1Bs as you said currently is capped at 150K. While that is somewhat detrimental to US employees right now it's not too bad. However if Musk and tech bros have their way they want to blow it up to many times the number. That's going to hugely affect employment and wages.

 

[poppabk]

You should only come to America if you believe in American values and only about American citizens. If you cared about Americans you wouldn't want H1B. But you do because your loyalties lie elsewhere.

My kids are American, I am American, my wife is American and I have only left America once in the last decade to attend my dads funeral.
But I want my kids to live in an America that is competitive, not one that is arbitrarily gimping it's companies with excessive regulations. Why would I want Harvard educated Doctors working in Canada instead of here? Why would I want tech jobs to be outsourced to India?

 

[DoubleClutch]

My kids are American, I am American, my wife is American and I have only left America once in the last decade to attend my dads funeral.
But I want my kids to live in an America that is competitive, not one that is arbitrarily gimping it's companies with excessive regulations. Why would I want Harvard educated Doctors working in Canada instead of here? Why would I want tech jobs to be outsourced to India?

Yeah, let's not outsource jobs to India, let's instead outsource India here.

PhD logic right there.

 

[RCX]

Cyberpunk fiction told me the evil corpos wouldn't be as banal as these milquetoast cunts.

 

[rofif]

ai still in the fetus stage
Most people only see what it currently is and not where it's headed, let alone it's potential.
You probably use lots of devices that make use of ai and don't even realize it.

It's in that stage for 2 years. Still making same mistakes. I understand it's new but I am not seeing the promise. Hell I don't even know what we would want it for in our daily lives if it worked.
It feels kinda forced and not obvious what to do with it… like we all know how cool and useful smartphone was.
But this? They are all wasting money and electricity so far. The data centers are record breaking huge

 

[Knightime_X]

It's in that stage for 2 years. Still making same mistakes. I understand it's new but I am not seeing the promise. Hell I don't even know what we would want it for in our daily lives if it worked.
It feels kinda forced and not obvious what to do with it… like we all know how cool and useful smartphone was.
But this? They are all wasting money and electricity so far. The data centers are record breaking huge

There's lots of implications to be had.
Right now, it's hard to see outside of trivial things.

 

[bitbydeath]

 

[poppabk]

Yeah, let's not outsource jobs to India, let's instead outsource India here.

PhD logic right there.

Yep instead of taking 85k of their best, let's just open it up to 1.4 billion instead. Worked great for American manufacturing.
Even with all the bullshit going on with TSMC in Arizona (mainly EB visas not H1B), I would still rather that plant exist than basically the entire US tech industry rely on manufacturing based solely in Taiwan.
Oh and guess who is also in talks to open up a fab in India?

 

[StereoVsn]

Yeah, let's not outsource jobs to India, let's instead outsource India here.

PhD logic right there.

It is much better to get folks to come here and work jobs in US, pay US taxes and eventually become productive US citizens.

The key is doing that without depressing US wages.

 

[DoubleClutch]

Yep instead of taking 85k of their best, let's just open it up to 1.4 billion instead. Worked great for American manufacturing.
Even with all the bullshit going on with TSMC in Arizona (mainly EB visas not H1B), I would still rather that plant exist than basically the entire US tech industry rely on manufacturing based solely in Taiwan.
Oh and guess who is also in talks to open up a fab in India?

Japan doesn't import a bunch of foreigners and is the fourth biggest economy, ahead of India with 1/10 the number of people.

I don't want to be an economic zone favorable for the world. I want to have an America that's based on generations of values, culture, and history. Where families are strong, not just corporate profits.

Most young Americans can't afford having a family, will never own a home, and are having a tough time launching their careers. Tell them at least this country is competitive. They have nothing, but trust us, this is for the best. No.

Zero H1B. There should be a moratorium on all immigration until this country is put back into order.