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[Vestal]

It's exactly proof of what I was alleging, in fact.

I honestly don't know if you have the mental capacity for tracing an argument through several hoops at once, and simply reply to the last thing said like an LLM struggling for context, so I'll try to simplify:

I said that the driving, extremely widespread conspiracy theory on the progressive side about Trump/Russia back in 2017 was essentially that Trump was installed as a Russian asset and controlled by them via some compromising blackmail (the "tape"). The second part of my argument is that this kind of wild conspiracy thinking is objectively insane, and psychologically disqualifying from participation in political life--and that it is exactly what we're seeing again now in the sudden obsessive theory that there is some smoking gun of Trump and pedophilia waiting to be uncovered, which will finally take him down just like that mythical secret sex tape was going to. And lastly, that this kind of thinking is exactly like QAnon. Unhinged conspiracy thinking is not isolated on one side of the aisle, and if anything has been much worse for the country on the progressive side due to always going much more mainstream (for example, people on major networks, like Rachel Maddow, falling fully for the most extreme delusions of it and broadcasting it every night, just as it graced pages of the most prestigious papers like NYT; whereas QAnon remained a fringe thing).

In that context, I quoted the NYT (and another source) because it is the most widely read source among left/progressives, and what you see in its pages is by far a better recording of mainstream progressive belief than anything else you can possibly find. And on those pages, the most illogical and magical-thinking versions of the Russian conspiracy were plainly printed, many times.

It illustrates that this was indeed what drove the Russian hysteria. And anecdotally, at least 80% of the progressive people in my orbit -- from extended family, neighbors, etc -- took the full belief during those years. Speak to any person over 50 in 2017 for that matter who votes democrat, and they'd tell you that Putin is controlling Trump like a puppet due to secret sex tapes, and that this is objectively true information about which they have absolutely zero doubt.

Trump did himself no favors looking like a limp dick next to Putin at their first summit. Everyone's take away was him defending Putin and siding with him over our own Intel on just obvious stuff. You compound that with how things unfolded around Wikileaks aka "buttery emails", Flynn getting fired, and Trump's general comments on Putin. All of that created a pretty strong public narrative without the need for much color or flare.

The media just rode the narrative he basically spoon-fed them.

 

[ResurrectedContrarian]

I think we should equally ignore Russia hysteria, Q-Anon, and Epstein truthers (on both political sides... and the left version of it, after all, was non-existent until Trump was back in power--then suddenly became a 24/7 obsession of figures in media and elsewhere who said zero about Epstein for several years).

And I think there is a psychotic inability to accept that Trump is just a fairly ordinary populist, if a bit personally gross (not pedo gross, but brash and ugly in his personal life), and a refusal to see that his politics is a legitimate version of right populism with plenty of reasonable supports. Even boogeymen like Project 2025 are just fairly straightforward think tank policy documents. All the hysteria is just that, an unnecessary psychological meltdown based on a refusal to recognize that right-populism is in fact a coherent and even dominant political philosophy at this moment in time, no matter how unappealing to many its current leader may be.

 

[YCoCg]

(on both political sides... and the left version of it, after all, was non-existent until Trump was back in power--then suddenly became a 24/7 obsession of figures in media and elsewhere who said zero about Epstein for several years).

This is the issue that some people fail to grasp, us normal guys always wanted it released, the reason why Trump is getting flack and it became a big deal is because HE RAN ON IT, literally a big part of his campaign was blowing open the whole Epstein Files and getting them out there, you can't deny this, there's hundreds upon hundreds of tweets and social media posts from Trump influencers, promoters and those close to him all talking about the same thing, saying how we need to defeat the dems so we can expose these files, remember when Trump and the White House held a press conference where they gave out redacted files "Phase 1" to right wing influencers? If it was anyone else it wouldn't be a huge issue, but because Trump fucking pushed it into the media 24/7 you can't complain when people are riled up and pointing out the hypocrisy.

You can't say the "left" are obsessed with it when like 50% of Trumps 2024 campaign was talking about it, you can't say the "left" only care about it as a gotcha when the Reps and GOP are doing their best to block anything from coming out. Want to shut people up? Want the "left" to stop talking about it? Want to prove Trump is innocent and isn't a pedo? Want to drain the swamp? Then release the files, let's expose those who are actually guilty, you can't say it can't be done because "too many high people in power are on it" because then that just means we're accepting that kiddy fucking and nefarious shit is perfectly OK as long as you're in power.

 

[12Goblins]

It's exactly proof of what I was alleging, in fact.

I honestly don't know if you have the mental capacity for tracing an argument through several hoops at once, and simply reply to the last thing said like an LLM struggling for context, so I'll try to simplify:

I said that the driving, extremely widespread conspiracy theory on the progressive side about Trump/Russia back in 2017 was essentially that Trump was installed as a Russian asset and controlled by them via some compromising blackmail (the "tape"). The second part of my argument is that this kind of wild conspiracy thinking is objectively insane, and psychologically disqualifying from participation in political life--and that it is exactly what we're seeing again now in the sudden obsessive theory that there is some smoking gun of Trump and pedophilia waiting to be uncovered, which will finally take him down just like that mythical secret sex tape was going to. And lastly, that this kind of thinking is exactly like QAnon. Unhinged conspiracy thinking is not isolated on one side of the aisle, and if anything has been much worse for the country on the progressive side due to always going much more mainstream (for example, people on major networks, like Rachel Maddow, falling fully for the most extreme delusions of it and broadcasting it every night, just as it graced pages of the most prestigious papers like NYT; whereas QAnon remained a fringe thing).

In that context, I quoted the NYT (and another source) because it is the most widely read source among left/progressives, and what you see in its pages is by far a better recording of mainstream progressive belief than anything else you can possibly find. And on those pages, the most illogical and magical-thinking versions of the Russian conspiracy were plainly printed, many times.

It illustrates that this was indeed what drove the Russian hysteria. And anecdotally, at least 80% of the progressive people in my orbit -- from extended family, neighbors, etc -- took the full belief during those years. Speak to any person over 50 in 2017 for that matter who votes democrat, and they'd tell you that Putin is controlling Trump like a puppet due to secret sex tapes, and that this is objectively true information about which they have absolutely zero doubt.

If you can't understand why I have a problem with you equivocating the Russian/Epstein allegations to completely baseless conspiratorial and supernatural claims by Qanon, we're in trouble


Let's trace the argument together. What you're saying boils down to: many progressives believed in an unfounded conspiracy that DJT was a Russian controlled asset, which is identical to the unfounded claims that people are making now about Trump/Epstein and pedophilia, and "this kind of unhinged conspiracy thinking is exactly like Qanon."

So far so good ?

 

[ResurrectedContrarian]

If you can't understand why I have a problem with you equivocating the Russian/Epstein allegations to completely baseless conspiratorial and supernatural claims by Qanon, we're in trouble

The drive to derail half of a presidency over a Russian conspiracy theory that would be unhinged even during the Cold War was, indeed, at least as embarrassing and irrational as QAnon, yes. Unequivocally.

Let's trace the argument together. What you're saying boils down to: many progressives believed in an unfounded conspiracy that DJT was a Russian controlled asset, which is identical to the unfounded claims that people are now making about Trump/Epstein and pedophilia, and "this kind of unhinged conspiracy thinking is exactly like Qanon."

So far so good ?

"What you're saying boils down to: many progressives believed in an unfounded conspiracy that DJT was a Russian controlled asset" -- not even that, no; I called it the "driving" belief and hysteria of the entire Russian investigation.

By driving, I obviously mean: it wasn't merely the fringe, or a few outliers, who believed the report (paraded across media as a bombshell from now-defunct BuzzFeed News, of all places) that Trump was controlled by the existence of secret sex tape that compromised him and was held openly over his head by Putin. It was the driving force, the sweeping narrative across all major media, and repeatedly incessantly, in exactly equal measure to how strongly the same political side desperately, psychotically needed a story, any story, that could let them believe that Trump was actually a secret plot instead of an elected president, because History was supposed to elect the good guy (girl).

So no, it's not that merely some on the fringe believed something absurd; that would be the case with QAnon. It's an even worse situation, where the entire apparatus of official intelligence agency investigation, media, and one political party were totally consumed by a fantasy that simply derailed the nation for a very long time.

And now that he's back in power, the same mechanisms are in operation again. The notion of an Epstein reveal is the last grasp at an alternative story where Trump is finally exposed. The right has plenty of those fantasies, like QAnon, but let's at least recognize the current left obsession for what it is, and treat it with a similar level of eye-rolling and generally knowing that it's a "tell" that exposes the people who really have no business discussing politics at all.

(for the record, I absolutely think Trump is very sleazy as a person, although I think that of his opponents just as strongly in different forms. I also think his handling of Epstein was opportunistic when he wasn't in power, and is now a mess with all kinds of stupid decisions and ways of fanning the flames. But this madness about Trump as an actual member of a pedophilic circle is insane, purchasing girls or whatever is believed, and the "let's make everything about Epstein 24/7" drive on the left now is equally opportunistic.. something that had zero attention when prior admin was in power. He rode that wave cynically, now they are.)

 

[12Goblins]

So you're saying what drove the beliefs behind the Russian allegations are the same type of beliefs that drove the Qanon claims, yes?


Take the following claims,

1. Russia interfered in the US election.
2. Russia wanted Trump to win.
3. Trump knew of Russia's interference and welcomed the help.

You are free to challenge these premises, but we know all 3 to be true/sound.

Do these have no bearing for you on what drove these people to push these russian allegations? Or was it just luck/coincidence that this was discovered?

 

[adamsapple]

(for the record, I absolutely think Trump is very sleazy as a person, although I think that of his opponents just as strongly in different forms. I also think his handling of Epstein was opportunistic when he wasn't in power, and is now a mess with all kinds of stupid decisions and ways of fanning the flames. But this madness about Trump as an actual member of a pedophilic circle is insane, purchasing girls or whatever is believed, and the "let's make everything about Epstein 24/7" drive on the left now is equally opportunistic.. something that had zero attention when prior admin was in power. He rode that wave cynically, now they are.)

Sure, but it's the current admin that ran on the promise of releasing the names lists etc to get elected.

They appointed multiple people in prominent positions who made various boasts and claims.

The least that can be done is to call them out on their bullshit. The way the current admin is dodging the question and doing literally anything else doesn't exactly help their case either.

 

[Baemono]

It's exactly proof of what I was alleging, in fact.

I honestly don't know if you have the mental capacity for tracing an argument through several hoops at once, and simply reply to the last thing said like an LLM struggling for context, so I'll try to simplify:

I said that the driving, extremely widespread conspiracy theory on the progressive side about Trump/Russia back in 2017 was essentially that Trump was installed as a Russian asset and controlled by them via some compromising blackmail (the "tape"). The second part of my argument is that this kind of wild conspiracy thinking is objectively insane, and psychologically disqualifying from participation in political life--and that it is exactly what we're seeing again now in the sudden obsessive theory that there is some smoking gun of Trump and pedophilia waiting to be uncovered, which will finally take him down just like that mythical secret sex tape was going to. And lastly, that this kind of thinking is exactly like QAnon. Unhinged conspiracy thinking is not isolated on one side of the aisle, and if anything has been much worse for the country on the progressive side due to always going much more mainstream (for example, people on major networks, like Rachel Maddow, falling fully for the most extreme delusions of it and broadcasting it every night, just as it graced pages of the most prestigious papers like NYT; whereas QAnon remained a fringe thing).

In that context, I quoted the NYT (and another source) because it is the most widely read source among left/progressives, and what you see in its pages is by far a better recording of mainstream progressive belief than anything else you can possibly find. And on those pages, the most illogical and magical-thinking versions of the Russian conspiracy were plainly printed, many times.

It illustrates that this was indeed what drove the Russian hysteria. And anecdotally, at least 80% of the progressive people in my orbit -- from extended family, neighbors, etc -- took the full belief during those years. Speak to any person over 50 in 2017 for that matter who votes democrat, and they'd tell you that Putin is controlling Trump like a puppet due to secret sex tapes, and that this is objectively true information about which they have absolutely zero doubt.

I think we should equally ignore Russia hysteria

I think you insist a bit too much on leaving out Russia

 

[The Pleasure]

Looks like that Trump / Epstein statue is back.

 

[adamsapple]

I love community notes.