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[IDKFA]

Excellent in-depth video on 15 years of broken promises that ends with a depressing ending.

And they are broken promises.

He said he would make Winds his priority and ditch all other projects except Wild Cards. How did that pan out?

I used to be a fan of the series after picking up GOT in Gatwick airport 25 years ago.

Now I couldn't care less. I'm done with the series. Geroge doesn't give a shit about his readers who have invested time and money into the series. Why should I then continue to care?

 

[DKehoe]

He should give his notes to Brian Sanderson. Then we would have The winds of Winter yesterday, two additional books by Friday as well as a full blown prequel series for Christmas.

At the most Worldcon someone did try and tell Martin that he should give the story over to Brandon Sanderson and did so while Sanderson was sitting there on the same panel. The guy got booed for it, so it is still a minority opinion. But it shows that the content piggies are getting more shameless and entitled.

I don't think Sanderson would be a good fit to finish this series and I don't see how anyone who read one of his books could think otherwise.

Sanderson has said that he wouldn't want to do them becuase he also doesn't think he'd be a good fit for them. And Martin has said he doesn't want anyone finishing them in his place. So it's not something either side wants anyway.

 

[negator2vc]

Sanderson has said that he wouldn't want to do them becuase he also doesn't think he'd be a good fit for them. And Martin has said he doesn't want anyone finishing them in his place. So it's not something either side wants anyway.

Nothing said at that panel matters because those decisions could easily change depending on who get the book rights after Martin. If that someone throw enough money to Sanderson could can bet that he will change his tune .

 

[DKehoe]

Nothing said at that panel matters because those decisions could easily change depending on who get the book rights after Martin. If that someone throw enough money to Sanderson could can bet that he will change his tune .

Sure, it's possible. I don't really get why people would be so desperate for Sanderson to write it when it's not his style. But it seems like that's also a reflection of viewing the author as a content-generation machine. For consumers it only matters that they can consume content.

 

[kruis]

At the most Worldcon someone did try and tell Martin that he should give the story over to Brandon Sanderson and did so while Sanderson was sitting there on the same panel. The guy got booed for it, so it is still a minority opinion. But it shows that the content piggies are getting more shameless and entitled.


Sanderson has said that he wouldn't want to do them becuase he also doesn't think he'd be a good fit for them. And Martin has said he doesn't want anyone finishing them in his place. So it's not something either side wants anyway.

Entitled?

When a writer writes standalone novels featuring a specific character or set in a specific world and he stops writing more novels in that series even though the fams can't get enough. I have no beef with that. In those cases Neil Gaiman is right: writer XYZ is not your bitch. But when a writer starts a multi book series that's one long continuous story, he makes a promise with the readers who purchase those books that he'll finish the story. Readers are right to complain when books are left unfinished. In the case of GRRM there's also the matter of the many broken promises that he'd finish the damn book "real soon now". How can a writer go from "I think I'll get this done this year if I put my back into it" to "Fuck, I'm nowhere to finishing this book even after 14 years, this book is my curse!".

 

[IDKFA]

He should give his notes to Brian Sanderson. Then we would have The winds of Winter yesterday, two additional books by Friday as well as a full blown prequel series for Christmas.

No thanks.

Personally, I think Sanderson is a shit writer.

Ignoring my personal opinion, Sanderson and Martin are also completely different styles. Sanderson wouldn't be able to pull off the grim dark world of ASOIAF.

I'm not sure who could pull it off. The fantasy genre has become sanitised in recent years. It's either fantasy romance, or writers are unable to keep they're modern political views out of their books.

I think the style of fantasy that made ASOIAF popular isn't around any more. Not that I can find anyway, but I'd love to be corrected on that.

 

[negator2vc]

Sure, it's possible. I don't really get why people would be so desperate for Sanderson to write it when it's not his style. But it seems like that's also a reflection of viewing the author as a content-generation machine. For consumers it only matters that they can consume content.

Even if I still cared about GoT (for me it ended with Storm of Swords) I definitely wouldn't wanted Sanderson to finish the series since I no longer like his writing.

 

[Poppinfresh]

I'm not sure who could pull it off.

Steven Erickson or R. Scott Bakker could do it.

 

[Sonik]

Good, the man is self-aware enough to understand that his mind isn't what it used to be so instead of making an inferior work of art he cancelled it altogether. He was struggling for years and the results obviously weren't meeting his expectations, the people who are seething about it obviously have no idea how badly your mind deteriorates when you get old, when I was a teen I thought only your body ages too

 

[DKehoe]

Entitled?

When a writer writes standalone novels featuring a specific character or set in a specific world and he stops writing more novels in that series even though the fams can't get enough. I have no beef with that. In those cases Neil Gaiman is right: writer XYZ is not your bitch. But when a writer starts a multi book series that's one long continuous story, he makes a promise with the readers who purchase those books that he'll finish the story. Readers are right to complain when books are left unfinished. In the case of GRRM there's also the matter of the many broken promises that he'd finish the damn book "real soon now". How can a writer go from "I think I'll get this done this year if I put my back into it" to "Fuck, I'm nowhere to finishing this book even after 14 years, this book is my curse!".

Yeh, entitled. Those with this consumer mindset think they are entitled to something and get annoyed that they aren't getting it when they want it. It doesn't work like that. You're entitled to the books you've paid for. That's it.

Neil Gaiman's point was specifically that George RR Martin is not your bitch. He wasn't talking about writer XYZ.

The books haven't been left unfinished. He's working on them. He's said he's a slow writer who likes dabbling in different projects as part of his creative process. Would it be great if he finished TWOW and it was coming out tomorrow? Yeh, as a fan of the series that would be great. It's disappointing that it's taken this long and that he's missed goals he has set for himself. But the series has been formed by his process and that's what we've got for the rest of the series.

This is always the thing with this issue. People invent an agreement that they've decided they've entered into, decide that the agreement has been broken and then get annoyed at that. If you ask them what the specifics are for this agreement then they don't really have anything, because it doesn't exist. It's a childlike entitlement. That kind of entitlement also leads to people demanding that someone else finish the books instead or saying that they'll get AI to write it for them, despite the author clearly not wanting either of those things to happen. That's because to the consumer what they want takes precedence over the creator's own wishes. Because consuming is the most important thing.

 

[Angry_Megalodon]

Being a writer, I understand Martin not willing to give away his baby to anyone else. Why should he? That's his legacy. However, he made a terrible mistake giving the rights to HBO before finishing his main saga.

On the other hand, I also understand fans who have supported him and made him rich under the promise that he would someday finish his series. "Thanks to" writers like Martin, some publishers don't accept new sagas from unknown writers unless they are complete.

Personally, I start getting exhausted when a book takes longer than one year. I feel the urge to write "FIN". Writing a complex book is a very immersive work, you can't stay for +10 years with your mind 100% occupied by it. My guess is that Martin has dettached hiimself from his work, pretty much like King with The Dark Tower. It's very hard to get the mojo back. If he ever finishes the series, don't expect anything near the quality of his previous books.

 

[Poppinfresh]

However, he made a terrible mistake giving the rights to HBO before finishing his main saga.

Terrible for fans and readers but it certainly wasn't terrible from a financial standpoint for him.

It's sad that these books will be his legacy because Martin's earlier stand-alone books are much better and the early books in the The Wild Cards series, which he helped write and edit, absolutely blow Game of Thrones away.

 

[AJUMP23]

No one will ever know what winter is coming really means.

 

[Melon Husk]

It's not a priority then. Just hire a new assistant who can ghost write most of it.

 

[Valonquar]

It's still surreal to me that I met him at a small author's convention in Winston Salem about 8 months before the first season of the TV series aired. He read a chapter from Dance of Dragons for a group of about 50 people. I got my books autographed, talked with other fans about the books, and truly believed we'd get to the end of the book series before the TV show could possibly catch up. Then the TV series skipped a fuckton of material, spent budget weirdly on shit that didn't matter, and then completely fucked off in the final season. There's no way the negative impact of the final season hasn't made it impossible for him to finish the books now, but at the same time WoW should have happened way before that point.

 

[negator2vc]

Being a writer, I understand Martin not willing to give away his baby to anyone else. Why should he? That's his legacy. However, he made a terrible mistake giving the rights to HBO before finishing his main saga.

At least now its still his legacy. If the series stay unfinished and, as I said before, someone WILL get the book's rights the series will be finished by another author and the series will be that author legacy (since he/she finished the damn series).

 

[jason10mm]

Nothing said at that panel matters because those decisions could easily change depending on who get the book rights after Martin. If that someone throw enough money to Sanderson could can bet that he will change his tune .

Didn't sanderson just make 40 MILLION by crowdsourcing his next couple of books?

I don't think ASOIAF can afford him, honestly.

How there has not been a dozen or more sanderson adaptions is beyond me, he must want a level of creative or representative control no media company is willing to allow.

 

[jason10mm]

Yeh, entitled. Those with this consumer mindset think they are entitled to something and get annoyed that they aren't getting it when they want it. It doesn't work like that. You're entitled to the books you've paid for. That's it.

That's a bullshit argument when discussing a series. Readers have been paying on an installment plan and GRRM is bailing out with the job only half done. This isn't like buying a car and then getting mad a new model car isn't forthcoming, this is like paying for a new bathroom remodel and the contractor does the toilet and 1 sink but leaves the shower, tub, and other sink undone. WTF you gonna do with half a bathroom?

Sure, you could wait till the whole thing is done, but then GRRM would have to finish it all before he can collect. And he SAID he was mostly done with future books LONG ago, even the most casual reader that got into the series with the show was "promised" more books soon. I started reading this series in the 90's when he was dropping a book every other year or so and had numerous other books out that showed he was reasonably prolific. He CLEARLY has given up on his writing habits compared to 20 years ago and he, IMHO, DOES have an obligation for all the readers he strung along with ASOIAF to either hand it over to someone who can finish it or at least ghost write the damned thing in lieu of taking on tv show after tv show.

 

[Angry_Megalodon]

At least now its still his legacy. If the series stay unfinished and, as I said before, someone WILL get the book's rights the series will be finished by another author and the series will be that author legacy (since he/she finished the damn series).

Unless Martin himself gave all his notes and personal views to a new author that book would be no better than any other fanfic. The TV show is also fanfic. Only the original author has those characters in his head and he knows them first hand. I honestly don't see the point of an ending without Martin.

There's no way the negative impact of the final season hasn't made it impossible for him to finish the books now, but at the same time WoW should have happened way before that point.

This is why I said he made a mistake. For the normies there's already an end to the saga. If he didn't know how to finish his books (which it's clear he doesn't) he must feel conflicted by the TV show, for sure.

That's why I never start a series without knowing how it will end. The first and the last scenes should be set in stone before writing chapter one.

 

[jason10mm]

Unless Martin himself gave all his notes and personal views to a new author that book would be no better than any other fanfic. The TV show is also fanfic. Only the original author has those characters in his head and he knows them first hand. I honestly don't see the point of an ending without Martin.

GRRM does have a team though, so his ideas should be pretty well known. And if it's true that he writes out lots of versions of events, then, like Tolkein, there should be plenty of material to mine for content. IFAICT GRRM hasn't even finished his own history of westeros books, and those ARE mostly written by his team. My guess is the sales are not so high to continue, plus GRRM has more than he ever needs so his motivation is just gone. I suppose "World of Ice and Fire: Untold History of Westeros" is a complete, but high level history, but its been SEVEN YEARS since Fire and Blood and still no book 2, just rehashes.

 

[kruis]

This is why I said he made a mistake. For the normies there's already an end to the saga. If he didn't know how to finish his books (which it's clear he doesn't) he must feel conflicted by the TV show, for sure.

That's why I never start a series without knowing how it will end. The first and the last scenes should be set in stone before writing chapter one.

You're an architect who knows what the finished products is going to be like before you start building, GRRM is a gardener who has a rough idea where he wants the story to end, but in the process of creation doesn't stick to the plan but goes where his muse leads him even if it means rewriting huge sections of his books. That's how he painted himself in ever smaller corners of his huge world. So many characters, so many secrets to reveal, so many dangling plots and no idea how to weave them all together into a coherent story.

A Feast of Dragons was originally meant to start many years after the events of the previous book so the Stark children were all adults, but that idea didn't work out so he had to rewrite AFoD as a direct contnuation of ASoS with the Stark children as young adults. A similar thing happened with ADoD where he needed so many characters from Westeros to meet with Daenerys in Essos, but he didn't know how to solve that issue for the longest time.

 

[Liopleurodon]

For me personally, TV show, and its spin-offs are enough.

Main series was, IMO, very conclusive, and satisfying.

Don't think I will ever read the books.

 

[DKehoe]

That's a bullshit argument when discussing a series. Readers have been paying on an installment plan and GRRM is bailing out with the job only half done. This isn't like buying a car and then getting mad a new model car isn't forthcoming, this is like paying for a new bathroom remodel and the contractor does the toilet and 1 sink but leaves the shower, tub, and other sink undone. WTF you gonna do with half a bathroom?

Sure, you could wait till the whole thing is done, but then GRRM would have to finish it all before he can collect. And he SAID he was mostly done with future books LONG ago, even the most casual reader that got into the series with the show was "promised" more books soon. I started reading this series in the 90's when he was dropping a book every other year or so and had numerous other books out that showed he was reasonably prolific. He CLEARLY has given up on his writing habits compared to 20 years ago and he, IMHO, DOES have an obligation for all the readers he strung along with ASOIAF to either hand it over to someone who can finish it or at least ghost write the damned thing in lieu of taking on tv show after tv show.

It's not a bullshit argument. People aren't specifically entitled to anything other than the books they've paid for. Trying to handwave an argument that you're entitled to more doesn't have any substance to it because ultimately there's not actually any kind of agreement there. What are the specific details of this payment plan? When people say these things it always comes down to "it's like if..." scenarios. But if I get someone in to remodel my bathroom then I have an agreement in place with them for what they'll do and the details of it have been agreed to by both parties. That's not the case here.

His writing habits staying fixed are also not part of any kind of agreement. Neither is whether or not he works on other projects.

You can be of the opinion that he has that obligation to you. But that doesn't make it so. It's his property and what he does with it is up to him. Yeh there's the point that "well, once he's dead I'll end up getting what I want eventually anyway" but doesn't that just make it seem like people are vultures?

He is also still actively working on it. So even if he did have some kind of binding agreement that he owed it to people then he's still working on producing it. So whether or not he's allowed to decide he wants to stop working on it is kind of irrelevant because he is still working on it. "But I want it now" just doesn't hold up as a counter to that. Because then you're also imposing a pretty arbitrary timeframe on this already imagined agreement. Him having produced X books in Y years isn't a framework you can insist an author reliably sticks to. Writing a book just doesn't work like that.

I always feel like I end up just repeating myself with this. So I'm really trying to not sound like a dick. But there's a difference between me feeling like there should be an agreement in place and there actually being one. I get being disappointed and frustrated. It is kinda ridiculous it's taken this long. But it just is what it is.

 

[jason10mm]

It's not a bullshit argument. People aren't specifically entitled to anything other than the books they've paid for. Trying to handwave an argument that you're entitled to more doesn't have any substance to it because ultimately there's not actually any kind of agreement there. What are the specific details of this payment plan? When people say these things it always comes down to "it's like if..." scenarios. But if I get someone in to remodel my bathroom then I have an agreement in place with them for what they'll do and the details of it have been agreed to by both parties. That's not the case here.

Absolutely not true. Series get completed. ASOIAF was NEVER sold as a "may never be finished, read at your own risk" experience or some sort of episodic series like The Dresden Files. It was ALWAYS billed as a story GRRM knew, from start to finish, first as 3-4 books, then 5, now 7. He ALWAYS talked like the later books were mostly done, hell he was doing chapter releases YEARS and YEARS ago. So readers jump on board with the DEFINITE expectation that, barring GRRMs untimely death (now not so untimely), this series would get done and his initial pace would have had it all out in 10, maybe 15 years TOTAL, not the 30 year odyssey we are on now. The way this series has fallen into the shitter is 100% an issue with GRRM taking the audience for a ride. This was not some series from some reclusive author where it may or may no ever finish. GRRM was prolific, timely, and productive in the 80's/90's through mid '00's, at which point he fell into the abyss.

His writing habits staying fixed are also not part of any kind of agreement. Neither is whether or not he works on other projects.

It is when he was, and still is at some point, putting out "I'm working on it, almost there!" posts. It's as obvious a "rope a dope" scheme as can be at this point. Am I gonna sue him for a full return of all the money I've spent on ASOIAF books? Of course not. But was my investment into the series predicated on his OWN ADVERTIZEMENT that the series had a definite conclusion, just a few books away. 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000%

If the show is all the resolution we get, with all the hanging chads in the form of Lady Stoneheart, that young Griff guy, etc, then the series would be a major failure from my perspective, at least past the first 3 books as sort of a sad tale of the Fall of the Starks.

 

[Clear]

People bitching about GRRM not finishing really annoy me.

Its this "product" mentality, where the thought that because the author isn't ready to commit to just putting anything out to satisfy demand, they are entitled to complain about it.

They truly deserve a future filled with soulless, artless AI slop, because they clearly have zero respect for creativity.

 

[Angry_Megalodon]

You're an architect who knows what the finished products is going to be like before you start building, GRRM is a gardener who has a rough idea where he wants the story to end, but in the process of creation doesn't stick to the plan but goes where his muse leads him even if it means rewriting huge sections of his books. That's how he painted himself in ever smaller corners of his huge world. So many characters, so many secrets to reveal, so many dangling plots and no idea how to weave them all together into a coherent story.

A Feast of Dragons was originally meant to start many years after the events of the previous book so the Stark children were all adults, but that idea didn't work out so he had to rewrite AFoD as a direct contnuation of ASoS with the Stark children as young adults. A similar thing happened with ADoD where he needed so many characters from Westeros to meet with Daenerys in Essos, but he didn't know how to solve that issue for the longest time.

Actually, I'm not the organized kind, I let storylines flow. Characters have their own agendas, which often contradict what I had planned for them. However, for getting started I need to know what the endgame is. How to get there is the exciting part, because for me it's very rewarding to discover story secrets as if I were a reader. For example, in the fifth book of my saga I "found out" that one of the daughters of a main character is from another mother, who is one of the antagonists. I had given away unconscious hints on this, but I wasnt sure why that girl was so different from her siblings till I found the reason four books later, when telling the father's story. That was very satisfying.

I'm against planning every scene of every chapter, a book turns very mechanic if it sticks to rigid narrative structures. You need to counterbalance it with some sort of direction. The problem is that takes up lot of brain power. You can afford being a "loose" type of writer if you are focused on only one complicated book. If at the same time you are writing videogames, TV shows and whatnot, things get out of control. Or worse, you stop hearing your characters in your head, one of the main reasons to get disattached from your work.

 

[Fbh]

I thought so many times of starting this series after S1 of the show. Guess I'm glad I never did.

That's a bullshit argument when discussing a series. Readers have been paying on an installment plan and GRRM is bailing out with the job only half done. This isn't like buying a car and then getting mad a new model car isn't forthcoming, this is like paying for a new bathroom remodel and the contractor does the toilet and 1 sink but leaves the shower, tub, and other sink undone. WTF you gonna do with half a bathroom?

Sure, you could wait till the whole thing is done, but then GRRM would have to finish it all before he can collect. And he SAID he was mostly done with future books LONG ago, even the most casual reader that got into the series with the show was "promised" more books soon. I started reading this series in the 90's when he was dropping a book every other year or so and had numerous other books out that showed he was reasonably prolific. He CLEARLY has given up on his writing habits compared to 20 years ago and he, IMHO, DOES have an obligation for all the readers he strung along with ASOIAF to either hand it over to someone who can finish it or at least ghost write the damned thing in lieu of taking on tv show after tv show.

Yeah, I think when you sell a book that you are clearly presenting as being part of a series, there's an implied understanding with the audience that you'll be providing an ending.
Of course there's no legal or contractual obligation for the author to provide one, but this idea that you can't be upset or disappointed at them is silly IMO.

It's the same with every other type of media. If Apple announces Severance is cancelled and we'll never get an ending I'd be upset, it doesn't mean I'm entitled to an ending or they should refund me the money I paid to watch the previous seasons. But it would definitely lower my view of their streaming service and make me extremely unlikely to invest my time and money on their platform in the future.

 

[jason10mm]

People bitching about GRRM not finishing really annoy me.

Its this "product" mentality, where the thought that because the author isn't ready to commit to just putting anything out to satisfy demand, they are entitled to complain about it.

They truly deserve a future filled with soulless, artless AI slop, because they clearly have zero respect for creativity.

GRRM has been talking about the length of the series and "it's mostly planned out" since THE BEGINNING. It's not like fans are insisting an author put out "one more James Bond book" or JKR "Do more Harry Potter", this is just fans, who have committed their time and money based on what GRRM has ALWAYS been saying, to get GRRM to follow through.

If someone wanted to know if they should start ASOIAF now, I'd inform them it likely will never finish, reader beware. But us OG readers, especially from the 90's or even from the start of GoT, WERE TOLD the series was well in hand, books were coming, chapters were done, hell even the number of books and the titles! We are not bitching about a 6 month or even a 2 year delay, we are talking a DECADE, going on TWO. Absolutely ludicrous.

 

[DKehoe]

Absolutely not true. Series get completed. ASOIAF was NEVER sold as a "may never be finished, read at your own risk" experience or some sort of episodic series like The Dresden Files. It was ALWAYS billed as a story GRRM knew, from start to finish, first as 3-4 books, then 5, now 7. He ALWAYS talked like the later books were mostly done, hell he was doing chapter releases YEARS and YEARS ago. So readers jump on board with the DEFINITE expectation that, barring GRRMs untimely death (now not so untimely), this series would get done and his initial pace would have had it all out in 10, maybe 15 years TOTAL, not the 30 year odyssey we are on now. The way this series has fallen into the shitter is 100% an issue with GRRM taking the audience for a ride. This was not some series from some reclusive author where it may or may no ever finish. GRRM was prolific, timely, and productive in the 80's/90's through mid '00's, at which point he fell into the abyss.


It is when he was, and still is at some point, putting out "I'm working on it, almost there!" posts. It's as obvious a "rope a dope" scheme as can be at this point. Am I gonna sue him for a full return of all the money I've spent on ASOIAF books? Of course not. But was my investment into the series predicated on his OWN ADVERTIZEMENT that the series had a definite conclusion, just a few books away. 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000%

If the show is all the resolution we get, with all the hanging chads in the form of Lady Stoneheart, that young Griff guy, etc, then the series would be a major failure from my perspective, at least past the first 3 books as sort of a sad tale of the Fall of the Starks.

You were sold individual books. You haven't paid for a series. If he had been struck by lightning and died after one or two of the books were published then his estate wouldn't have any kind of obligation to find a way to continue the series. You aren't owed that. I understand wanting to see the series through if you've started it. But there's not any kind of guarantee there.

So what are the terms of the agreement you have with him? I don't mean this rhetorically, by the way. He's not allowed to stop working on the series or he's broken the agreement. But he is working on it and has still apparently broken this agreement. So what specifically are the terms? Do we as the audience owe him anything other than the price of the books? If you bought the first book but didn't like it do you then owe it to him to still buy the rest? Do people bombarding him with comments about how he's a lazy fat fuck who is going to die soon impact the agreement at all? Or is it more of a one-way obligation? Sounds like a pretty sweet deal for us if so!

 

[jason10mm]

You were sold individual books. You haven't paid for a series. If he had been struck by lightning and died after one or two of the books were published then his estate wouldn't have any kind of obligation to find a way to continue the series. You aren't owed that. I understand wanting to see the series through if you've started it. But there's not any kind of guarantee there.

So what are the terms of the agreement you have with him? I don't mean this rhetorically, by the way. He's not allowed to stop working on the series or he's broken the agreement. But he is working on it and has still apparently broken this agreement. So what specifically are the terms? Do we as the audience owe him anything other than the price of the books? If you bought the first book but didn't like it do you then owe it to him to still buy the rest? Do people bombarding him with comments about how he's a lazy fat fuck who is going to die soon impact the agreement at all? Or is it more of a one-way obligation? Sounds like a pretty sweet deal for us if so!

You strike me as a guy that's easy to sell bridges to.

No point in arguing around and around about this. You seem happy to have read what's there and content to leave it. I feel pissed off about the false advertising around the state of the series or the progress being made, bordering on outright LIES.

Am I gonna sue? Beat up GRRM? Nah, of course not. Am I gonna recommend ASOIAF to any new reader in it's current state of incompleteness? No.

What COULD have been the LOTR of our era is gonna end up being a footnote in literature history, all but forgotten in 30 years, like so many authors.

 

[IDKFA]

You were sold individual books. You haven't paid for a series. If he had been struck by lightning and died after one or two of the books were published then his estate wouldn't have any kind of obligation to find a way to continue the series. You aren't owed that. I understand wanting to see the series through if you've started it. But there's not any kind of guarantee there.

So what are the terms of the agreement you have with him? I don't mean this rhetorically, by the way. He's not allowed to stop working on the series or he's broken the agreement. But he is working on it and has still apparently broken this agreement. So what specifically are the terms? Do we as the audience owe him anything other than the price of the books? If you bought the first book but didn't like it do you then owe it to him to still buy the rest? Do people bombarding him with comments about how he's a lazy fat fuck who is going to die soon impact the agreement at all? Or is it more of a one-way obligation? Sounds like a pretty sweet deal for us if so!

Let's not ride his dick too much.

Nobody has a legal contract, but he had a moral obligation to finish the book.

He has promised on many occasions that we will get an end to ASOIAF. He has also promised he would make Winds a priority and he wouldn't take on any more projects until Winds is done. That was clealry a lie. He's been stringing along his fans for years and financially benefiting from it.

People have invested time and money into the series. He doesn't have to finish the series, but doing so is the right thing to do, or at least have a plan in place so it is finished.

 

[Last Hearth]

You were sold individual books. You haven't paid for a series. If he had been struck by lightning and died after one or two of the books were published then his estate wouldn't have any kind of obligation to find a way to continue the series. You aren't owed that. I understand wanting to see the series through if you've started it. But there's not any kind of guarantee there.

So what are the terms of the agreement you have with him? I don't mean this rhetorically, by the way. He's not allowed to stop working on the series or he's broken the agreement. But he is working on it and has still apparently broken this agreement. So what specifically are the terms? Do we as the audience owe him anything other than the price of the books? If you bought the first book but didn't like it do you then owe it to him to still buy the rest? Do people bombarding him with comments about how he's a lazy fat fuck who is going to die soon impact the agreement at all? Or is it more of a one-way obligation? Sounds like a pretty sweet deal for us if so!

Yes, but when authors sell books that are part of the series, there is an implied obligation that the author is going to in good faith eventually deliver the entire story. It's obviously not a legal obligation, but to say the author "owes nothing" is not true. I think the results of authors who don't make at least a good faith effort is that people will be less likely to purchase series that are unfinished in the future.

 

[kruis]

Yes, but when authors sell books that are part of the series, there is an implied obligation that the author is going to in good faith eventually deliver the entire story. It's obviously not a legal obligation, but to say the author "owes nothing" is not true. I think the results of authors who don't make at least a good faith effort is that people will be less likely to purchase series that are unfinished in the future.

Yep. Just ask any SF/fantasy reader if they'd would want read a multi volume book series knowing that it's incomplete and will never be finished either and almost all of them would say they'd not be interested in that case. And they'd be right. Why spend money on a bunch of books, spend many hours reading them, get really invested in a story and then there's no ending but only cliffhangers and unresolved plot lines? That's just an exercise in frustration.

People will start reading the first book of a brandnew series, because 98% of all SF/fantasy authors WILL finish their series. Those authors kept their part of an unspoken bargain between reader and author.

 

[Madflavor]

First hint of honesty that's come out of his mouth regarding WoW. It's just a matter of time now before he announces he's given up and that he's grateful for Weiss and Benioff for finishing the story.

 

[DKehoe]

You strike me as a guy that's easy to sell bridges to.

No point in arguing around and around about this. You seem happy to have read what's there and content to leave it. I feel pissed off about the false advertising around the state of the series or the progress being made, bordering on outright LIES.

Am I gonna sue? Beat up GRRM? Nah, of course not. Am I gonna recommend ASOIAF to any new reader in it's current state of incompleteness? No.

What COULD have been the LOTR of our era is gonna end up being a footnote in literature history, all but forgotten in 30 years, like so many authors.

I'm the one that seems to have a clear understanding of what I've bought and what I've not. You sound like a guy that's convinced himself he's been sold a bridge.

I think it's understandable to feel pissed off and frustrated that it's taken so long. But "I'm owed this" is where the line is for me.

So again, as part of this agreement, what does he owe you and what do you owe him? Be specific because it seems that him continuing to work on the series isn't enough and that there's more to it than just that.

Let's not ride his dick too much.

Nobody has a legal contract, but he had a moral obligation to finish the book.

He has promised on many occasions that we will get an end to ASOIAF. He has also promised he would make Winds a priority and he wouldn't take on any more projects until Winds is done. That was clealry a lie. He's been stringing along his fans for years and financially benefiting from it.

People have invested time and money into the series. He doesn't have to finish the series, but doing so is the right thing to do, or at least have a plan in place so it is finished.

I think you and I have had this conversation a few times. You even started a post in this thread from about a year ago with "Let's not ride his dick too much." We left that discussion agreeing to disagree. If you want to talk about it again then fine. But we might just be best leaving it as agreeing to disagree since otherwise it might just go round in circles once more.

Yes, but when authors sell books that are part of the series, there is an implied obligation that the author is going to in good faith eventually deliver the entire story. It's obviously not a legal obligation, but to say the author "owes nothing" is not true. I think the results of authors who don't make at least a good faith effort is that people will be less likely to purchase series that are unfinished in the future.

And I think that's totally fair. If he dropped ASOIAF and announced a new series tomorrow, then it would be totally understandable for you to decide to not buy it because he didn't complete the last series. But as it stands right now he is working on the series. In an ideal world it would have been completed years ago but unfortunately creative projects aren't straightforward in terms of x hours spent typing = y pages written.

 

[DrFigs]

It would be great if he finished the series, but there's lots of other great books out there that are finished people could read instead.

 

[AJUMP23]

I wonder what is taking so long to do. He became too popular to finish his work and having all these other distractions are what he wants to do.

I wonder if he has a bunch of plot holes he doesn't want to fix. I saw a doc on JK Rowling finishing Harry Potter and they had people reading and re-reading to make sure she had holes covered and plot points concluded.

 

[DrFigs]

I wonder what is taking so long to do. He became too popular to finish his work and having all these other distractions are what he wants to do.

I wonder if he has a bunch of plot holes he doesn't want to fix. I saw a doc on JK Rowling finishing Harry Potter and they had people reading and re-reading to make sure she had holes covered and plot points concluded.

he wanted to have two more books in the series, but so much has to happen in just those two books that it must be hard to do it all rationally.

 

[Wilhelm_85]

I'm really glad I grew out of even caring about this series anymore. I'm not going to deny it can be engrossing and entertaining, but I've come to see it for the cynical and nihilistic garbage that it is.

Would be awesome if GRRM somehow closed out the series in a positive and hopeful way, but that would likely require a massive change of heart that just isn't in him.

 

[calico]

But when a writer starts a multi book series that's one long continuous story, he makes a promise with the readers who purchase those books that he'll finish the story. Readers are right to complain when books are left unfinished.

I 100% agree.

It's not only a shitty way to treat the readers you effectively entered into a gentlemen's agreement with, but it's shitty for other authors who will come after you too. People will be more reluctant to consider supporting series like this in future until they are complete if it's considered acceptable practice for the author to nope out without upholding their end of the bargain. Without people being willing to support these series throughout the process (but only upon completion), they become less viable to do at all.

This model made him incredibly wealthy and successful, and now he's put a match to it and pulled the ladder up behind himself.

 

[kevboard]

 

[EviLore]

Now straight up saying that Wild Cards is more important to him than ASOIAF. What a world.

He destroyed his legacy.

 

[Dynomite]

In my mind I wonder who will release their next book first, Martin or Rothfuss. I think we have all accepted that both these men will die and Sanderson will finish writing the series in a weekend.

 

[Last Hearth]

And I think that's totally fair. If he dropped ASOIAF and announced a new series tomorrow, then it would be totally understandable for you to decide to not buy it because he didn't complete the last series. But as it stands right now he is working on the series. In an ideal world it would have been completed years ago but unfortunately creative projects aren't straightforward in terms of x hours spent typing = y pages written.

There are 2 problems here.
FIrst, it's not just if he announced a series tomorrow, it's any series that any author starts. What he has in effect done is harmed the public trust in all authors (not just their trust in him), People who have been burned by him are going to be less trusting in authors in general.
Second, is he working on the series? He claims to be. But there isn't any evidence. He told people in 2017 that he was months away from finishing. And now we are 8 years later, and there is no indications that he's made any progress. At some point, the evidence points to that he's not really working on the TWoW, in any tangible way. Working on it is not just thinking about it occasionally, working on a book requires actual written pages after a while.

 

[Angry_Megalodon]

I 100% agree.

It's not only a shitty way to treat the readers you effectively entered into a gentlemen's agreement with, but it's shitty for other authors who will come after you too. People will be more reluctant to consider supporting series like this in future until they are complete if it's considered acceptable practice for the author to nope out without upholding their end of the bargain. Without people being willing to support these series throughout the process (but only upon completion), they become less viable to do at all.

This model made him incredibly wealthy and successful, and now he's put a match to it and pulled the ladder up behind himself.

I have experienced this myself and I'm not even talking about sales but proof-reading. Quite a few refused to read anything till the whole series (also 7 books) was finished because they, understandibly so, didn't want to spend time and emotional investment in something that might not have an ending.

 

[IDKFA]

I'm the one that seems to have a clear understanding of what I've bought and what I've not. You sound like a guy that's convinced himself he's been sold a bridge.

I think it's understandable to feel pissed off and frustrated that it's taken so long. But "I'm owed this" is where the line is for me.

So again, as part of this agreement, what does he owe you and what do you owe him? Be specific because it seems that him continuing to work on the series isn't enough and that there's more to it than just that.


I think you and I have had this conversation a few times. You even started a post in this thread from about a year ago with "Let's not ride his dick too much." We left that discussion agreeing to disagree. If you want to talk about it again then fine. But we might just be best leaving it as agreeing to disagree since otherwise it might just go round in circles once more.

And I think that's totally fair. If he dropped ASOIAF and announced a new series tomorrow, then it would be totally understandable for you to decide to not buy it because he didn't complete the last series. But as it stands right now he is working on the series. In an ideal world it would have been completed years ago but unfortunately creative projects aren't straightforward in terms of x hours spent typing = y pages written.

Oh shit! I thought the George RR Martin dick riding sounded very familiar.

No, I'm good, mate. We've already done this dance. No need to do it again.

Peace out.

 

[DKehoe]

There are 2 problems here.
FIrst, it's not just if he announced a series tomorrow, it's any series that any author starts. What he has in effect done is harmed the public trust in all authors (not just their trust in him), People who have been burned by him are going to be less trusting in authors in general.
Second, is he working on the series? He claims to be. But there isn't any evidence. He told people in 2017 that he was months away from finishing. And now we are 8 years later, and there is no indications that he's made any progress. At some point, the evidence points to that he's not really working on the TWoW, in any tangible way. Working on it is not just thinking about it occasionally, working on a book requires actual written pages after a while.

Yeh it would be disappointing if it never gets finished but that's just life really. You can't then shut yourself off from an entire medium because you had that one unfortunate experience.

He says he's working on it and there's not really any evidence to suggest he's not. So it's just down to people feeling like he should be finished by now. He's said that while he does have other projects TWOW is his main focus and that he desperately wants to finish it. If you don't believe that then fair enough. I can get that with how long it's taken. But there's not really anything to go on other than our own subjective feelings on it. You see people doing this thing of "well clearly he's not actually writing it anymore" and that helps them justify them getting mad at him for "giving up" on the series or something like that. I guess since him actually working on it deflates a lot of that. I think it's just that it's a big complicated book at a point in his big complicated story where things have to start tying together and he's a slow writer who has gotten slower as the years have gone on.

Oh shit! I thought the George RR Martin dick riding sounded very familiar.

No, I'm good, mate. We've already done this dance. No need to do it again.

Peace out.

No worries! I find myself saying the same things on here a bunch of times too.

That's fair. For the most part I do get where you're coming from with it and understand the frustration. For whatever reason this is just one of these topics that I always end up wading into.

 

[calico]

You see people doing this thing of "well clearly he's not actually writing it anymore" and that helps them justify them getting mad at him for "giving up" on the series or something like that. I guess since him actually working on it deflates a lot of that.

 

[jason10mm]

He says he's working on it and there's not really any evidence to suggest he's not. So it's just down to people feeling like he should be finished by now. He's said that while he does have other projects TWOW is his main focus and that he desperately wants to finish it. If you don't believe that then fair enough.

We can not believe him because IT'S TRUE. Whatever he is doing, it's not committing words to paper on this book. Virtually any other author would have been officially dropped by their publisher at this point, but the enduring legacy of the series still lingers.

I can get that with how long it's taken. But there's not really anything to go on other than our own subjective feelings on it. You see people doing this thing of "well clearly he's not actually writing it anymore" and that helps them justify them getting mad at him for "giving up" on the series or something like that. I guess since him actually working on it deflates a lot of that. I think it's just that it's a big complicated book at a point in his big complicated story where things have to start tying together and he's a slow writer who has gotten slower as the years have gone on.

He put out the first three books in 1996, 1999, and 2000, then Dance in 2005 and Feast in 2011. Alllllllllllllllllllll the while saying that the later stuff was mostly done but he just had to go back and fill in some gaps. THIS is what he was telling us. So what, exactly, has he been doing from 2011 till 2025, a time frame in which nothing Westeros related has come out except the prequel history stuff which is objectively written by other people? No more Dunk and Egg (1998, 2003, 2010) even which is says he is ALSO passionate about.

You can keep stanning for him all you want, but the objective truth is he has generated NOTHING from Dance in 14 years. Its about to be longer since Feast than the time to release the ENTIRE REST OF THE SERIES. Sure, maybe he had a lot of the first 3 books pre-written before Game of Thrones was released (some sources say he started in 1991) but that's still no excuse, especially since he has his name on countless anthology series this whole time, so it's not like he is just out vacationing. He IS working(ish), just not on Winds.

If the Dunk series is a big hit, I expect he'll shadow write more of that "while still making Winds of Winter my #1 priority!"

At this point I'd accept an ending that's in the vein of the "History of...." prequel stuff just to get some sort of resolution, then he can f off to do Wild Cards (which I'd love to see) or Haviland Tuf stuff (which I'd also love to see).

 

[Last Hearth]

He says he's working on it and there's not really any evidence to suggest he's not. So it's just down to people feeling like he should be finished by now. He's said that while he does have other projects TWOW is his main focus and that he desperately wants to finish it. If you don't believe that then fair enough. I can get that with how long it's taken. But there's not really anything to go on other than our own subjective feelings on it. You see people doing this thing of "well clearly he's not actually writing it anymore" and that helps them justify them getting mad at him for "giving up" on the series or something like that. I guess since him actually working on it deflates a lot of that. I think it's just that it's a big complicated book at a point in his big complicated story where things have to start tying together and he's a slow writer who has gotten slower as the years have gone on.

No, that's not how it works. His words are wind, as he says in his books. It's actions that matter. His actions are not those of a person who's been working hard on it for years.
At some point, working on a book has to result in pages written, not theoretical nonsense. He's produced no evidence that he's written anything. Heck, the last preview chapter he released, the Kraken, was 7 years ago!
So he doesn't get the benefit of the doubt that he's telling the truth unless shown otherwise. Now the burden is on him to prove that he's writing, and he's not produced any proof in a very long time.