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[Punished Miku]

Expedition 33 had tons of stuff to explore and things to find in each area. It also had a world map and tons of optional locations to explore.

Plus writing and dialog that are actually suitable for grown-ups.

They are not very similar at all.

They're not identical but the biggest thing that saved E33 was not having any map in the game. That's all I'm saying.

I still don't know where people get the idea that E33 is some writing masterpiece, but that's a debate for another thread. The lore and mythology in XIII is more involved than E33. E33 just has natural sounding dialogue. That's really it. 99% of the time they aren't really discussing much of importance. Its a mystery box for almost the entire game with a cool payoff at the end.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Square still makes FF games. They are just called Bravely Default and Octopath Traveler now.

 

[xenosys]

Final Fantasy is the most overhated franchise ever, Square releases fine games that end being considered the worst things in the world.

I tend to agree.

Final Fantasy scored 87%, Remake Intergrade scored 89%, and Rebirth 92%, and yet by the general discourse on forums, you'd think they were all garbage. Remake and Rebirth in particular have almost 90 GOTY awards between them across the industry.

Plenty of games score much lower than this with reviewers and audiences and don't receive anywhere near the sort of criticism that Square Enix do.

This is what happens when you're a top 10 franchise in terms of units sold. You get held to a much higher standard than most.

 

[xenosys]

Loving FF7r series. I did hate 16 and felt 15 was lukewarm at best. BUT FF7 Rebirth really has given them the template to move forward with. They finally have a great modern combat system, a great open world system, and are figuring out the pacing of these modern games (still a work in progress, but I expect FF7r3 to be phenomenal)

The one positive about splitting FF7 up into a trilogy of games is that each entry gives them an opportunity to iterate, learn, take on feedback and change what wasn't working and either keep or improve upon what did.

Ironically, this trilogy has given them the opportunity to develop an identity from game to game. This is what they've been missing for the past 20 years : continuity. Different teams with different leaders and ideas are given a single mainline entry and then moved on. Systems are thrown out and never seen again.

 

[mayham2199]

FFXIII is a misunderstood game. Many of the criticisms stem from the era when open-world games were becoming mainstream and many people were asking for games like that. Nowadays, with the saturation of the genre, I bet many would complain less about the game.

- It's visually beautiful, the character modeling is far superior to many PS3 games.
- The story is fantastic, the characters are very interesting.
- The soundtrack is one of the best ever made.

Nah man I love JRPGs it was just a garbage game. It was like the most basic premise for a JRPG you could have. It's what I would expect to see from a team making FF but all they have done is the bare bone elements and they will add the world\cities\towns later.

 

[cireza]

They finally have a great modern combat system

Best modern combat system they ever had is Lightning Returns by a mile. Recent games leaning more towards "real time" are an absolute jank fest, and largely uninteresting in my opinion.

 

[Pagusas]

Best modern combat system they ever had is Lightning Returns by a mile. Recent game leaning more towards "real time" are an absolute jank fest.

To each their own, I adore and have a blast with Remake and Rebirths system. It just feels incredible when you get good at it, and god is it gorgeous.

 

[KàIRóS]

It's funny how everytime someone discusses FF and Square their solution is always reduced to "Make the Final Fantasy that I WANT"

And then internally Square realizes they have made like 20 different versions of what FF should be and they go "Well... we'll make whatever is selling well in the RPG genre right now"

Which also means that, yes Square is going to use Expedition 33 as the blueprint for the next mainline FF, whether that's a good or a bad thing depends on the person but personally I think it's awful because Square at this point seems to be conditioned to follow trends rather than build on what they themselves have accomplished throughtout the years with FF, but oh well at least their AA games are still amazing old school JRPGs that do follow the early FF formulas.

 

[DonkeyPunchJr]

They're not identical but the biggest thing that saved E33 was not having any map in the game. That's all I'm saying.

I still don't know where people get the idea that E33 is some writing masterpiece, but that's a debate for another thread. The lore and mythology in XIII is more involved than E33. E33 just has natural sounding dialogue. That's really it. 99% of the time they aren't really discussing much of importance. Its a mystery box for almost the entire game with a cool payoff at the end.

XIII you spend 90% of the game running through a (very pretty) tube that occasionally branches, where 1 path leads to a dead-end with a treasure. E33 you actually have to explore your surroundings, pay attention to details, navigate using landmarks, etc. I don't think they're similar at all in that regard.

I agree that XIII has some really cool lore and mythology. Problem is that most of it is buried in the codex. Also the dialog and characters are retarded. The writers are incapable of writing anything but corny anime melodrama.

 

[calico]

13 being likened to Exp33 is triggering me

 

[Lokaum D+]

XIII trilogy and XV were great.
XVI was absolute trash.
VII remake trilogy is a waste of 10 years over one of the worst RPGs I have ever played.
Clair Obscur is irrelevant. Doesn't feel like FF in any way, as far as I am concerned.

Hurry up and get over with VII remake so we can move on to something new and good... if people at Square-Enix still know how to make new games.

XIII trilogy and XV over XVI its absolutily crazy talk to me.

XIII had the worse cast of characters of any FF game since 6, the mandatory need to read all the data log to understand the lore was unsuferable and XV was not content completed at launch, ppl who played the vanilla version ( me ) played a incomplete mess of game that has cut content and mechanics that was implemented into the game in later versions.

XVI at least had good characters and was content completed at launch, that alone puts XVI way above XIII and XV

 

[DonkeyPunchJr]

It's funny how everytime someone discusses FF and Square their solution is always reduced to "Make the Final Fantasy that I WANT"

And then internally Square realizes they have made like 20 different versions of what FF should be and they go "Well... we'll make whatever is selling well in the RPG genre right now"

Which also means that, yes Square is going to use Expedition 33 as the blueprint for the next mainline FF, whether that's a good or a bad thing depends on the person but personally I think it's awful because Square at this point seems to be conditioned to follow trends rather than build on what they themselves have accomplished throughtout the years with FF, but oh well at least their AA games are still amazing old school JRPGs that do follow the early FF formulas.

Ugh you're probably right. It's going to be like E33, except with bad writing and direction (including grunting/sighing and awkward pauses at the end of every line). And they'll throw in a ton of crappy MMO fetch quests to pad it out.

 

[Punished Miku]

XIII you spend 90% of the game running through a (very pretty) tube that occasionally branches, where 1 path leads to a dead-end with a treasure. E33 you actually have to explore your surroundings, pay attention to details, navigate using landmarks, etc. I don't think they're similar at all in that regard.

I agree that XIII has some really cool lore and mythology. Problem is that most of it is buried in the codex. Also the dialog and characters are retarded. The writers are incapable of writing anything but corny anime melodrama.

XIII level design sucks but its a much older game. I dont think E33 had much exploration. Its linear stuff with a small branch. Or a QTE jump thing which XIII also did in its 1st level. I dont think XIII is above criticism but I can see the argument if people want to compare it to E33. I hadn't really considered it but its got some parallels for sure.

If they ever did a XIII upgrade project, just a few tweaks I think would fix a lot. A couple minor paths. No minimap. Very small adjustments. Even a world map would be trivially easy.

 

[xenosys]

It's funny how everytime someone discusses FF and Square their solution is always reduced to "Make the Final Fantasy that I WANT"

And then internally Square realizes they have made like 20 different versions of what FF should be and they go "Well... we'll make whatever is selling well in the RPG genre right now"

Which also means that, yes Square is going to use Expedition 33 as the blueprint for the next mainline FF, whether that's a good or a bad thing depends on the person but personally I think it's awful because Square at this point seems to be conditioned to follow trends rather than build on what they themselves have accomplished throughtout the years with FF, but oh well at least their AA games are still amazing old school JRPGs that do follow the early FF formulas.

I doubt it. Persona 5 is sitting at over 10m copies. If they were really chasing trends, they would have tried to rip that off years ago and revert back to their turn-based roots.

People can yearn for the return of Final Fantasy turn-based games and decry their current direction, but VII Remake is still the best selling JRPG this decade outside of Pokemon.

They aren't going to chase after a game that's sold less copies on more available platforms that received exactly the same critical review score than their last effort.

 

[cireza]

XIII trilogy and XV over XVI its absolutily crazy talk to me.

XIII had the worse cast of characters of any FF game since 6, the mandatory need to read all the data log to understand the lore was unsuferable and XV was not content completed at launch, ppl who played the vanilla version ( me ) played a incomplete mess of game that has cut content and mechanics that was implemented into the game in later versions.

I played vanilla XV and it is the better version over the absolute travesty that was the Royal Edition. And XIII trilogy were proper FF games with good gameplay.

XVI shouldn't even be called a FF game.

 

[Lokaum D+]

I played vanilla XV and it is the better version over the absolute travesty that was the Royal Edition. And XIII trilogy were proper FF games with good gameplay.

XVI shouldn't even be called a FF game.

 

[cireza]

Well I don't care, you got FF XVI and FF VII remake trilogy so you are super happy, now it's my turn to get what I consider a good FF game. See you in 20 years for your next good FF game.

 

[Komatsu]

Squeenix's issues with FF started with the very convoluted, chaotic development of FFXII. It still is a great game, but firing the executive producer and director (Yasumi Matsuno) and replacing him with an artist (Hiroshi Minagawa) and a battle designer (Hiroyuki Itou) was not a great idea. To make matters worse, they placed Akitoshi Kawazu (of Romancing SaGa fame and one of Square's most abstruse producers) over them as EP and many of FFXII's most player-infuriating details had his fingerprints all over it.

Then came XIII, which was led by Motomu Toriyama. He had been one of FFX's three directors, responsible for cutscenes and motion capture, but he had never headed a project of that size. The game had fantastic production values but to this day it is - justifiably - considered one of the worst triple-A JRPGs ever created. The lore was nonsensical, the dialogue was cringe-worthy and the battle system was merely OK.

From there on out, it was a matter of playing catch-up. FFXV was a mess, so they decided to entrust XVI to the only producer in-house that was bringing in money and thar was Yoshida.

 

[KàIRóS]

I doubt it. Persona 5 is sitting at over 10m copies. If they were really chasing trends, they would have tried to rip that off years ago and revert back to their turn-based roots.

People can yearn for the return of Final Fantasy turn-based games and decry their current direction, but VII Remake is still the best selling JRPG this decade outside of Pokemon.

They aren't going to chase after a game that's sold less copies on more available platforms that received exactly the same critical review score than their last effort.

They did a school setting FF, it's called Final Fantasy Type 0 and it's mid AF.

and they also tried the Pokemon formula twice with FFXIII-2 and then World Of Final Fantasy.

 

[Fbh]

Now everyone loves Expedition 33 and how linear and tight and story-focused it is and how good the battle system is and how good art and music is.

FFXIII does the same, and all FF fans jump on the tables in protest and they still don't shut the fuck up.

You suck, that's the truth. Every single one of you sucks.

I mean, If you took Expedition 33 and:
- Removed the world map and all the optional areas
- Removed the gestral village and most NPCs
- Changed the level design from interconnected corridors to basically a straight line with occasional side corridors
- Made the combat braindead easy (like literally press X to win) for the first half of the game until you finally open it up and it becomes good
- Told the same overall story but with dialogue that's pure uninterrupted anime cringe
- Replaced the main supporting characters like Lune, Sciel and Monoco with Snow, Vanille and Hope.

Then yeah, E33 would suck too.

 

[March Climber]

I think this is the truth. There's really only so many times you can come up with a creative twist on chocobos, Cid and crystals.

I'd argue they've barely scratched the surface.

I've seen so many unique and out-there ideas for FF that are never brought to light nor thought about by their dev teams. And this could easily start with the lack of genre variety. They barely, barely touch the outer wall of RPG subgenres.

But it all depends on if the fans will let them.

 

[Comandr]

I love FF, and I absolutely wanted a remake of 7. But I wanted a remake of 7 with better graphics and some voice acting. I didn't want them to go reimagine the game and drag it out into a giant trilogy over 10+ years. They didn't listen to the fans on this one - they tried to take the fans for a wallet ride and people are tired.

This. It's this. Fans had been asking for a remakefor years, and then, finally, that fateful night at E3 2015, that's what they promised.

No reasonable person would see the word "remake" and assume it was going to be a radical departure from the original that is three full priced games long, and tells a completely different story. This is like, the definition of bait and switch. This isn't what anyone asked for. This is some monkey paw shit.

Hilariously, Square even produced a 13 minute film about how special FF7 was to some people and their memories of it.



THAT is the game that people wanted a remake of. That game very well could have reignited the JRPG industry, and lit sales on fire. That's not what we got though.

 

[calico]

How long into Exp 33 before you get to overworld map with optional areas etc? Like 2 hours? The comparison is outrageous.

Remake selling well is not very useful as an indicator of mechanics popularity. It is selling because it is FF7, which they cannot rely on to carry their other titles.

 

[Durin]

It definitely seems since working on FF13, they were trying to follow trends, rather than setting them.

I just want them to create a unique slower-paced combat system that makes me use my brain, or do some unique hybrid that isn't an obvious rip-off of something else.

- Made the combat braindead easy (like literally press X to win) for the first half of the game until you finally open it up and it becomes good

I'd even argue the combat in FF13 stays braindead the whole time, but against tougher enemies you just have to go back into your paradigms to defend + heal back up more often.

 

[tibia]

The fact that there is so little hype around the FF7 Remake games and Rebirth selling below 5million copies says it all. Old school fans like myself & my childhood friends all don't want to button mash and play midgar for 20hours. So we're waiting for hopefully fan mods in 5-10 years LOL

E33 was incredible until the story revealed itself. Turrible. Simply lame. Wont play the next one because of it. The mysterious witch in a hopeless world with horror vibes was 100x better. Still the combat was fun to play around with (got to doing billions of damage at the end lol), and it for sure beats anything seen from FF in decades.

Im surprised Japan hasnt stepped in to scold Square. Sad to see this company become so irrelevant in gaming.

Metaphor is easily the best recent JRPG!!

 

[tibia]

Square can still redeem themselves with FF8/FF9/FF10 remakes. None of these games need to be 40hr soap operas where you watch hours of backstory. Who cares? Keep it simple.

 

[DreamcastSkies]

Something to remember: Final Fantasy X is linear similar to XIII. Fans and the industry loved FFX. FFX also includes towns, cities and NPCs to help the game feel there is more to it than hallway paths and fighting. I like XIII and I appreciate it more these days than I used to but XIII is still a pretty fundamentally flawed game and fans and the industry showed they were perfectly fine with a better take on XIII (X).

 

[Killer8]

I won't get into sales sperging over FF because it got into a big argument last time, but as E33 continues to sell (over 5 mil now), and will likely win GOTY, I think that is the clearest possible signal to SE that a new turn-based FF game is not necessarily doomed to fail like they might believe.

 

[TheAssist]

I am just enjoying my Final Fantasies. The good the bad and ... actually fuck XIII.

The rest are fine. FF VII Remake and Rebirth are among my favorite gaming experiences ever. Might not be everyone's cup of tea, but eh. I am having a blast over here.

(CO-E 33 is also amazing and so is LaD and a bunch of other JRPG's. I like more than one thing, which is really cool

 

[Lokaum D+]

Well I don't care, you got FF XVI and FF VII remake trilogy so you are super happy, now it's my turn to get what I consider a good FF game. See you in 20 years for your next good FF game.

Nah, FFXVI was good but is has its problems and FF7Re is a stinker imo, i m waiting for Square to go back to FFX roots, but that may take more than 20 years.

 

[deeptech]

nobody had to tell ff7 or ffx devs what we want, they just made art, and then simply presented it.

today this infuriating practice of "asking the fans", as if not to fail in delivering, has yet to prove valid

 

[tibia]

Nah, FFXVI was good but is has its problems and FF7Re is a stinker imo, i m waiting for Square to go back to FFX roots, but that may take more than 20 years.

I got to around one hour from the end of XVI and it was just too boring. A one-character journey without a true world to explore didnt feel like FF. Clive's personal emo story simply can't be the main story...it was exhaustingly boring. His brother and kingdom? Hard to care for them that much.

My favorite thing about FF stories is that they usually start small and then go global (Meteor, SEED Garden to Ultimecia, forgot Zidane's story, sin/yu yevon). XVI just felt empty

 

[Icymanipulator]

I want it take a crack at it. I'll tell them what to do next.

Step away from action combat, return to turn based, huge focus on airships, flight and exploration.

 

[Clear]

Then came XIII, which was led by Motomu Toriyama. He had been one of FFX's three directors, responsible for cutscenes and motion capture, but he had never headed a project of that size. The game had fantastic production values but to this day it is - justifiably - considered one of the worst triple-A JRPGs ever created. The lore was nonsensical, the dialogue was cringe-worthy and the battle system was merely OK.

Considered "one of the worst" by whom exactly ?

That's a very big claim being made with zero substantiation. Especially given that by metrics of sales, critical reception, and even awards given at the time of release by readers of Dengeki and Famitsu, it did pretty damn well.

Sorry, but although I do think its flawed in many ways, particularly in terms of pacing, you can do a whole lot worse than XIII.

In reality its mostly just a weaker retread of FFX that had the misfortune to come out at the end of a period in which Japanese games were basically out of fashion.

 

[DownLikeBCPowder]

Considered "one of the worst" by whom exactly ?

That's a very big claim being made with zero substantiation. Especially given that by metrics of sales, critical reception, and even awards given at the time of release by readers of Dengeki and Famitsu, it did pretty damn well.

Sorry, but although I do think its flawed in many ways, particularly in terms of pacing, you can do a whole lot worse than XIII.

In reality its mostly just a weaker retread of FFX that had the misfortune to come out at the end of a period in which Japanese games were basically out of fashion.

My recollection of it is definitely not good. One of the only FF games I have not returned to revisit as years have gone on. I didn't even bother with the sequels - I had my fill of FF sequels with X-2. I think they should have remained stand alone projects.

That said, I do plan to revisit FF XIII again sometime soon. I'd like to see how I feel about it 20 years later. I don't expect to have a massive change of heart, but I know there were things I did like about it (such as a the combat system) that I look forward to experiencing again.

 

[Madflavor]

FFXVI was supposed to appeal to a new audience and it failed. E33 was a linear turn based RPG and has been a huge hit, surpassing Rebirth and XVI's sales.

I think Square paid pretty close attention to that. Whether they learn the right lessons and get the right people to work on XVII is a different conversation. But there's no way they didn't get the message.

 

[Larxia]

I played vanilla XV and it is the better version over the absolute travesty that was the Royal Edition.

What? In what way is vanilla XV better than the Royal Edition? Everything is just better in the royal, with more quality of life updates and more features. I remember being only able to pick one hunt quest at a time on the vanilla... it was so terrible.

Only thing I could see is prefering the pacing of the original Chapter 14 if you don't care for the expanded version of Insomnia... but that's really it. Other than that I don't see how Vanilla is superior to the royal.

 

[Werewolf Jones]

Expedition 33 is just Star Ocean: Til the End of Time for white people.

 

[Wolzard]

Nah man I love JRPGs it was just a garbage game. It was like the most basic premise for a JRPG you could have. It's what I would expect to see from a team making FF but all they have done is the bare bone elements and they will add the world\cities\towns later.

I don't think it deviates much from the series' pattern: a group of unlikely heroes fights against manipulative gods, questions about destiny, and saves the world from catastrophe.

FFVI - Rebellion against a divine/technological empire (fal'Cie/ Gestahlian Empire), dysfunctional group unites to challenge gods (Kefka/ Orphan/Barthandelus). Focus on family loss and redemption.
FFVII - Cold and traumatized protagonist (Lightning/ Cloud), oppressive corporation/government (Shinra/ Sanctum), crystals as a source of power and conflict (Mako/ fal'Cie crystals). Rebellion against artificial gods.
FFVIII - Focus on emotional overcoming and bonds (Squall/ Lightning/Hope), destiny imposed by higher entities (Time Compression/ Focus of the l'Cie). Journey of psychological maturation.
FFX - False religion controlling humanity (Yevon/ Sanctum fal'Cie), family sacrifice and vicious cycle (Yuna/Sin - Serah/Ragnarok). Sphere system/ Crystarium.
FFXII - Imperial politics and fal'Cie as mechanical gods (nethicite / fal'Cie), divided world (Archadia - Cocoon/Pulse), focus on freedom vs. imposed destiny.

Crystals is a source of power/divinity, common in FFIII to V, VII, IX and XV.
Lightning is cold, protective of her sister Serah, with a vulnerability arc, similar to Cloud (FFVII), Squall (FFVIII). Hope is the classic "vengeful kid" (like Tidus in FFX or Vaan in FFXII), with redemption through mentorship (Lightning - Auron/Tidus).
The party is brought together by accident/divine manipulation (l'Cie), they become friends during the game, a pattern in FFVI (rebels), FFX (pilgrims) and FFXV (bros road trip).
Eidolons from FFXIII turn into vehicles (Odin's motorcycle) just like in FFVIII (GFs) and FFXV (Armigers).
FFXIII-2 adds time travel, similar to FFVIII/FFX-2 or even Chrono Trigger.

 

[Kumomeme]

why? because those game is turn based? so basically Gamefreak been telling Square Enix what is a final fantasy through pokemon all these times? other company never made any turn based before SE all these times?

Sakaguchi also made The Last Story which is has action combat system. that game totally feels like a final fantasy games. this is count?

 

[cireza]

What? In what way is vanilla XV better than the Royal Edition? Everything is just better in the royal, with more quality of life updates and more features. I remember being only able to pick one hunt quest at a time on the vanilla... it was so terrible.

Only thing I could see is prefering the pacing of the original Chapter 14 if you don't care for the expanded version of Insomnia... but that's really it. Other than that I don't see how Vanilla is superior to the royal.

Picking several hunt quests was in a standard update.

Royal Edition destroyed all the ending act with a shitty open area filled with people that killed the mood. And let's go sight seeing and take pictures ! Utterly ridiculous. The city is in flame, everybody is probably dead, there is a feeling of urgency and despair, but nope, let's replace this with an amusement park...

They didn't understand a thing about the final act and simply answered to people. How it doesn't strike them as being nonsensical is beyond me.

 

[StueyDuck]

The point of final fantasy is that it isnt any one single thing.

If you cant understand that then you arent a final fantasy fan.

Can you say competing rpgs are better now, of course. But final fantasy will always be about trying new things and changing the formula.

 

[Go_Ly_Dow]

Expedition 33 is just Star Ocean: Til the End of Time for white people.

Christ. Never made that connection until now LOL.

On the subject of FFXIII, these guys just went back and covered the soundtrack.

Whatever you think of the game itself, the OST is a banger.



I was pretty negative on the XIII games, but strangely I'd be down to play a remaster so I hope they get round to it as its the final games that haven't been rereleased in some form for Playstation.

 

[Larxia]

there is a filling of urgency and despair, but nope, let's replace this with an amusement park...

That's true for all the open world part of the game too though.
It didn't really feel like an amusement park to me, compared to some moments during the first chapters of the game.

And about multiple hunts being part of an update, sure, but you talked about launch vanilla so

I think the Royal Edition is a much better version, but it still sucks how the DLCs never got properly merged with the base game.

 

[SkylineRKR]

You have to give them credit for daring to shake it up every time. But I think they hit their peak with FFVI - FFIX. Setting and art direction aside they were mechanically similar games. One used materia and gear to change up stats, another was more radical with the junction system. But underneath they were ATB based, with a world map.

FFX was still very recognizable as well, it was actual turn based like DQ but with a twist of swapping out the party.

But you grow up. And I ended up finding FFXII the best FF of all time. Yet they follow suit with FFXIII...? A funny reminder is that inbetween XII and XIII was only 3 years and a console gen. I remembered it as the wait taking much longer than that. In todays world 3 years for an AAA sequel is nothing.

Compared to XII, I feel XIII, XV and VII Remake are retarded in terms of writing, dialogue and character design. XVI is just an action game that was heavily drawn out for the worse and got the XVI moniker slapped on it.

 

[Peroroncino]

FF XIII vs Lost Oddyssey. Lost Oddyssey is often considered the real Final Fantasy XIII.

 

[supersale88]

Looking back on it, FF XVI was a pitiful game. It started really strong and by the end of it I was bored out of my mind. Character progression is lame, Characters were bland with no growth. Deaths were unearned, and didn't hold any emotional weight. Side quests were abysmal. Comparing it with Clair Obscur is a blasphemy imo.

 

[Synless]

What they made with FF7 Remake was the furthest thing from what fans wanted. I think that whole thing is one of the biggest disappointments in gaming I've personally seen, and they certainly weren't listening.

It's an equal if not better game in most aspects from the original.

 

[cireza]

And about multiple hunts being part of an update, sure, but you talked about launch vanilla so

Didn't bother me, but it was still nice to have. That's a minor inconvenience.

 

[kunonabi]

It's an equal if not better game in most aspects from the original.

It really isn't and I don't even like the original FFVII much.